Talk:Jacqui Lambie/Archive 1

Archive 1

Political career

Querying whether the first paragraph of the "Political career" section of this page meets the biographies of living persons policy.

The bulk of the first paragraph of this section, from the third sentence ("Lambie has stated that she soon spoke with Liberal state director ...") until the end of the paragraph, is not supported by the source next cited at the end of the second paragraph.

It appears to fit the description of "Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced".

Catagunyah (talk) 13:18, 22 July 2014 (UTC)

Indigenous background

The ABC's Background Briefing program of 13 Jul 2014 () has Clive Palmer making a statement about Jacqui Lambie having an indigenous background, however there's no mention of her in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Indigenous_Australian_politicians nor is there any mention of this as something she's claimed or advertised:

Clive Palmer: That's right, so as a national party across the nation we want to make sure that we are all integrated. One of the things about our party is that we've got nine or 10 members of Parliament, if you count Ricky Muir on our voting team, and four of them have got Indigenous backgrounds. There's the three from the Northern Territory, and Jacqui Lambie has got an Indigenous background from Tasmania. So of all the national parties in Australia we've got the highest number of Indigenous people in the party in Parliament.

Should this have a place on the page? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Zam864 (talk • contribs) 21:14, 14 July 2014 (UTC)

Probably not. Diversity is one thing but it can lead to too much fragmentation, unless the person himself/herself talks about it as one of their main causes. Genetic origin, and that's all it would be here, is probably not relevant here, and at this time. 121.209.56.25 (talk) 05:30, 20 August 2014 (UTC)

There is no "genetic" test for aboriginality in Australia. It's a kangaroo court who decides who is black and white. Please educate yourself 124.169.133.172 (talk)

She has mentioned her aboriginal heritage in her maiden speech to the senate, which puts it on the front burner. http://www.sbs.com.au/news/article/2014/09/05/jacqui-lambie-talks-about-indigenous-heritage

“I’ve been quite honest about that all along about the Indigenous heritage in my family but it’s not something I go and broadcast out there”, she told NITV, an indigenous broadcaster. --Zam864 (talk) 09:46, 7 September 2014 (UTC)

Aboriginality again

I think we need to be very careful in what we say about Lambie's claim of being Aboriginal. I don't know if she is Aboriginal or not, but I'm also unaware of any formal way in which Wikipedia can absolutely state that she is or isn't either. The source mentions "Tasmanian archives", but doesn't explain what that means. The article says " citing Tasmanian archival records which do not support Lambie's claim". That seems to be taking what's in the source a little too far. I doubt if those "archives" can irrefutably prove that she is not Aboriginal. Unfortunately, this argument is happening inside both national politics and Aboriginal politics, both pretty ugly places at times, and not the best place to look for truth. We need to go very softly in this area. HiLo48 (talk) 02:04, 19 October 2014 (UTC)

Lambie claims she has Aboriginal heritage, but this is not recognised by Tasmanian Aboriginal people (which, from everything I've ever read about Aboriginal identity, is important), and the specific family tree on which she relies to support that claim has been debunked by the ABC. (I've read the full investigation from the Tasmanian Archives on which the Australian Story was based, though I can't for the life of me find it: in essence, Lambie's claim is based on a specific family tree that the Tasmanian Archives found to be wrong, and that there was no evidence to support a relationship to the person Lambie claims to be related to, and evidence that there wasn't one - and they suggested that the assumption in Lambie's family of Aboriginality probably stemmed from "native" being recorded on one of Lambie's ancestors' birth records - which at that time meant "born in Tasmania", not "Aboriginal". It's a claim that's been widely debunked in reliable sources, but I don't think we need to go into it further than a) citing Tasmanian Aboriginal people's rejection of the claim, and b) citing the ABC's archival investigation. The Drover's Wife (talk) 04:42, 19 October 2014 (UTC)

There's a bit of original research in that post, especially when you apply a meaning to "native". You may be right, but who knows? You say she is "not recognised by Tasmanian Aboriginal people". That needs clarification. In reality, we have a small number of outspoken Aboriginal people saying they don't believe her. They could be saying that for many reasons (Lambie has hardly gone out of her way to endear herself to everybody), and such a statement from one or two people is hardly strong evidence. And the archives are inevitably incomplete. There is no such thing as an official position of Aboriginal people, anywhere. No single person is entitled to declare whether someone else is Aboriginal. This issue isn't resolved yet. HiLo48 (talk) 04:55, 19 October 2014 (UTC)

Recognition of a claim to Aboriginal ancestry by other Aboriginal people is pretty crucial, and there is as of yet no evidence that anyone of significance apart from Lambie actually does support her claim. We can say that Lambie claims a heritage, but to go beyond that we need WP:RS to support it. And it's not "original research" to raise the issue about the meaning of "native" when it's coming from experts on the subject: I'm not advocating that it go in until I again find the actual statement the ABC published, but that's what the Tasmanian Archives said in response to the ABC's inquiries. The Drover's Wife (talk) 05:11, 19 October 2014 (UTC)

Regarding my recent edits:

• [1] - Indigenous Tasmanians did not cite Tas archival records, Australian Story did, according to the ref. Perhaps we should mention those archival records, but if so, we need to mention them accurately.
• [2] Lambie did not claim that she was Tasmanian Aborigine - she stated that she "share[d] their blood, culture and history". The latter does not necessarily imply the former. Mitch Ames (talk) 05:51, 19 October 2014 (UTC)

I think that's better. These issues are sensitive, and hard to resolve with certainty. Saying what very good sources say is all we can do. I've tried to clarify the extent of the opposition to her claim, but I think that wording could still be better. HiLo48 (talk) 06:00, 19 October 2014 (UTC)

I have no problem with the first one; that's a matter of clarity. I disagree with the second - the latter is a flowery way of saying the former, and it's been interpreted as such by everyone. I have literally not read a single Aboriginal source supporting Lambie's claim to Aboriginality, and I have a big problem with the attempt to - as you stated above - categorise the opposition as "a small number of outspoken Aboriginal people saying they don't believe her", which is unsourced nonsense. The Drover's Wife (talk) 06:41, 19 October 2014 (UTC)

Re [3] - I do not think that "disputed by some Indigenous Tasmanians" implies that some/others support Lambie's claim. "Disputed by some" is neutral, factually correct and verifiable. The alternative - "disputed by Indigenous Tasmanians" - could just as easily be said to imply that all Indigenous Tasmanians dispute the claim, which is not verifiable. Mitch Ames (talk) 07:40, 19 October 2014 (UTC)

"I disagree with the second - the latter is a flowery way of saying the former, and it's been interpreted as such by everyone."
Could you state explicitly what you're referring to here. I think that you're disagreeing with my statement that "[stating shared blood, culture, heritage] does not necessarily imply [claiming she was Tasmanian Aboriginal]", but I'm not sure. If you are, then could you please provide a reference for your statement that "[the latter has been interpreted as the former] by everyone". So far as I can see only Clyde Mansell refers to Lambie's "so-called Aboriginality". Mitch Ames (talk) 08:03, 19 October 2014 (UTC)

I am open to alternate phrasings that do not carry the implications that HiLo48 suggested earlier, but "some" isn't good enough in the absence of any reliable sources. As for the second part: she literally said she was descended from a specific Tasmanian Aboriginal figure. You're arguing a point not disputed in any reliable source, and not even by HiLo48 until halfway through this thread. The Drover's Wife (talk) 08:07, 19 October 2014 (UTC)

she literally said she was descended from a specific Tasmanian Aboriginal figure
The distinction between claiming to be a descendent of an Aborigine and claiming to be Aboriginal is important - eg they are two separate criteria of the three listed at http://www.alrc.gov.au/publications/36-kinship-and-identity/legal-definitions-aboriginality. The assertion that claiming descent from an Aborigine is the same as claiming Aboriginality is false.

You're arguing a point not disputed in any reliable source
I'm saying that no reliable source has said she "claimed to be Aboriginal", therefore we should not say that. Mitch Ames (talk) 08:26, 19 October 2014 (UTC)

"some" isn't good enough in the absence of any reliable sources
I've updated the article to be specific about who is disputing her statement. Mitch Ames (talk) 08:42, 19 October 2014 (UTC)

Plenty of reliable sources have said that she was claiming Aboriginality. Our article did, too - without adequately mentioning that it was even controversial - until today, with the suggestion that she was the fifth Aboriginal MP. I don't particularly care which one you want to include in the article, because it's not as if one is less controversial than the other. The Drover's Wife (talk) 11:12, 19 October 2014 (UTC)

OK, I concede that reliable sources say she "declared ... that she is Aboriginal" [4], "revealed her Aboriginality" [5][6], and have updated the article again. I still think it worth quoting Lambie for the details. The wording, and the ref location probably still need tweaking. Mitch Ames (talk) 12:29, 19 October 2014 (UTC)

I wasn't entirely happy with "some" myself, but it's certainly not all. Many have said nothing. We must make that clear somehow. HiLo48 (talk) 09:46, 19 October 2014 (UTC)

I'm not reverting yet, because it's better to have it sourced, but it's patently misleading to suggest that there's only two prominent figures saying this. If you want to specify who's making it, I'm fine with that, but you don't get to just go to the first hit on Google News and suggest that that's it, particularly after some of the comments above. The Drover's Wife (talk) 11:12, 19 October 2014 (UTC)

Do you have sources for other people disputing the claim? Has someone reputable done a poll and published what percentage of people (indigenous or otherwise) dispute her statement? An unqualified "disputed by Indigenous Tasmanians" is at least as misleading as "some", and either of those wordings would earn a {{who}} tag.

Indidentally, here's an Aboriginal elder who supports Lambie. Mitch Ames (talk) 11:59, 19 October 2014 (UTC)

There's some controversy in Tasmania about who is aboriginal and who should get to decide. The Tasmanian Aboriginal Centre has one opinion, and doesn't recognise various groups such as Lambie's. Obviously others disagree. You can see how well they get along here Horatio (talk) 03:15, 4 July 2015 (UTC)

External links modified

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