Talk:Jason Graves

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Untitled[edit]

I have sent in a request to verify the copyrighted material in this article. Jasongmusic (talk) 21:23, 9 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

POV[edit]

Article currently has a severe bias. 86.145.120.36 (talk) 18:13, 23 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

WP:LAUNDRYLIST 1[edit]

WP is not a personal webpage for listing everything a person has ever done. Moving this here. Independent editors who work in this space can determine what here is appropriate based on relevant norms in this field in WP, and can add sources. I've made sections into bolded text so this all remains one section.

Works
Video games
Television
Film
  • The Matchmaker: Movie Trailer (Gramercy Pictures)
  • Mercury Rising: Movie Trailer (Universal)
  • G.I. Jane: Movie Trailer (Hollywood Pictures)
  • The Flying Messenger (1996)
  • Unshackled (2001)
  • On Oak Island (2005)
  • The Collector (2008)
  • Zu Warriors: Movie Trailer (Miramax)
  • The Marine: Movie Trailer (20th Century Fox)
  • Fatal Flaw (2010)
  • The Choice (2011)
  • The Cardboard Bernini (2012)
  • Unknown Caller (2014)
  • Adrenaline (2015)

- Jytdog (talk) 20:28, 2 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

  • I've never seen this applied before on composer articles, even ones that are featured, so I disagree this info should be removed from the article. The award stuff can, however. ~ Dissident93 (talk) 00:30, 3 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • I don't work in this field in WP, but I would be very surprised if all of a composer's works were listed in their articles, and unsourced at that. (that seem just so WP:NOTCATALOG to me) You all really do that? (real question) Jytdog (talk) 01:10, 3 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  • Well, for video game composers, the source is often taken directly from the game (there is a type of cite template just for that, actually). And even though a list of their works could be considered a "catalog", I've never actually seen any of them removed because of that. For a composer with a very large worklist, they normally have their own, separate article created, like this one for John Williams. Nobody seems to consider that a catalog, even though the article is huge and mostly unsourced. ~ Dissident93 (talk) 02:09, 3 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
For composers articles, this is quite a common practice. Is it possible for this to be restored? Jason Graves (talk) 16:54, 18 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think we can say "quite a common practice" because I can easily find articles about composers that do not have such lists: Norman_L._Berman - "For ten years Berman served as Composer-in-Residence for the classical repertory company, A Noise Within, where he composed scores for some 32 plays ranging from Shakespeare to Thornton Wilder." No list, just a link to his web site. Leo Erdody - no list at all. Gerald Busby - no list at all. I'm not saying that these are comparable, but they are good Wikipedia articles. Articles with little text but long lists always strike me as looking like a catalog or someone's CV. There needs to be more than a list to make an article, and if there is a need for a long list then I think it's better to make it a separate article since lists have reference value but aren't interesting reading. If the list is available on a person's web site, then it makes sense to link to the web site so to have only one place for the information, and one that is most likely to get updated. (Remember, a WP article is not a personal web page, and most articles are not maintained autobiographically.) LaMona (talk) 21:30, 10 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I wouldn't agree and I think your examples are problematic, as they are from composers that worked in an entirely different era of film making and a time of no games at all. Like most game/film composers on wikipedia, they have detailed credits because each of them, in the vast majority of cases, lead to film and game articles that are also very well made. So I disagree it looks like a CV, as it is not the case that this is a list as if it is being shown to a prospective employer. Credits are good indication of the composers style, level of skill, relationships with studios, career progression etc . Good articles for composers with detailed credits are important, very useful and makes connecting to the projects of their work much easier and makes the wiki pages of each project far more consistent and cohesive. Jason Graves (talk) 09:26, 11 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Even if we would agree that detailed credits are useful, they must be in addition to a textual article that meets the standards for notability. In this article there are two sentences -- that's all -- and no sources that would confer notability (interviews are a person talking about themselves, thus not independent). Nowhere do we allow that credits alone are sufficient. The basic rule is "significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject". It's really not useful to be spending time discussing credits when the primary rule for inclusion has not been met. Plus, the conflict of interest issues here are obvious, and I will say that I can't remember another instance of such open autobiographical argument. LaMona (talk) 13:55, 11 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I've gone ahead and re-added it, as the article is only two sentences otherwise. Nobuo Uematsu's and Yasunori Mitsuda's articles are both rated as a good one, and their worklists are just as detailed, if not more. ~ Dissident93 (talk) 11:11, 28 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Those two sentences stand as proof that, at least as written, this article does not meet WP:GNG. The articles you point to ARE good articles and have quite a bit of information about the composers. It's that information that needs to be supplied here, before we start adding detailed lists. LaMona (talk) 13:58, 11 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I don't agree with adding back a huge unsourced list of anything, anywhere in WP. Each entry violates WP:VERIFY and we are not a personal website. Jytdog (talk) 01:29, 30 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
You can easily verify each and every one of them from the official soundtracks or in-game credits. Have you seen how much worse it could be? Just look at the John Williams discography article. ~ Dissident93 (talk) 01:34, 30 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
That is not a reasonable way to ask anyone to verify something. And WP:OTHERSHITEXISTS is not good reasoning in Wikipedia. Jytdog (talk) 01:44, 30 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
How is it not? All of these can be verified quite easily and a citation template for this already exists. Removing a list because you don't feel like sourcing all of it isn't good reasoning in Wikipedia either. ~ Dissident93 (talk) 01:48, 30 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Per WP:VERIFY, things challenged need to be actually sourced; unsourced things can be removed, moved to the talk page, etc. I oped for the latter. WP:VERIFY is policy, not a matter of how people feel. Jytdog (talk) 02:07, 30 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
This does seem quite draconian, as the vast overwhelming majority of the composers have their credits shown, and as was stated you can easily verify each one. I am more than happy to go through and link the ones that do have a separate wikipedia article and see if I can find other sources. So how does everyone feel about putting back at least the credits for the ones that are verifiable? We have to start somewhere. Jason Graves (talk) 12:33, 11 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
The place to start is with verifiable content ABOUT (not BY) the subject of the article. Anything else is supplementary to that. And if you feel overly scrutinized (Wikipedia keeps a history of edits, btw), it could be because of overtly creating an autobiography in main wiki space, that is, not respecting the policies that exist to ensure that readers can trust the product. I'm somewhat surprised that this article has not been deleted; others of this nature are often speedy deleted, so you have been given more of a chance than many. LaMona (talk) 14:55, 11 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I am aware wikipedia keeps edits, I edited my post because on reflection it did not seem constructive. I would request that you consider what I post here in its final form as the most accurate representation of my views, it is a respect I extend to everyone else. I have been respecting the rules since the dialogue began, (I had problems with a user from here opening a dialogue with me then not responding to emails), hence why I have made no edits and learning about the rules has been time consuming, but also quite interesting. In the case of the credits, Far Cry Primal for example, I am listed on that article as the composer, so is that level of verification acceptable? If so then there are quite a few on the credits list that are perfectly fine. Also I do appreciate being given time to work on the issues, most of my time is spent more on learning the in's and out's of wikipedia, rather than making edits or adding content, which I am yet to do. Jason Graves (talk) 10:36, 12 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
No one is questioning the credits - one can see your name listed on them. The issue here is WP:GNG - there has to be "significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject." Once those reliable sources with significant coverage are added to the article we can talk about lists and credits, etc. But without those sources there simply is no article. So all of your focus should be there. LaMona (talk) 15:17, 12 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
That makes sense, thank you for taking the time to answer that for me, I appreciate it Jason Graves (talk) 17:42, 12 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

WP:LAUNDRYLIST 2[edit]

WP is not a personal webpage for listing every awared a person has ever gotten. Moving this here. Independent editors who work in this space can determine what here is appropriate based on relevant norms in this field in WP, and can add sources. I've made sections into bolded text so this all remains one section.

Awards and nominations
Year Organization Award Nominated work Result
2016 National Academy of Video Game Trade Reviewers Original Dramatic Score (New IP) The Order: 1886 Nominated
2015 Hollywood Music in Media Best Original Score The Order: 1886 Nominated
2014 British Academy Games Awards Best Audio Tomb Raider Nominated
2013 SXSW Gaming Awards Excellence In Musical Score Tomb Raider Nominated
2013 National Academy of Video Game Trade Reviewers Original Dramatic Score Tomb Raider Won
2013 GoldSpirit Awards Best Videogame Score Tomb Raider Won
2012 International Film Music Critics Association Best Original Score For a Video Game Resistance: Burning Skies Nominated
2011 British Academy Games Awards Best Audio Dead Space 2 Nominated
2011 Game Developers Choice Awards Best Audio Dead Space 2 Nominated
2011 GoldSpirit Awards Best Videogame Score Dead Space 2 Nominated
2011 GoldSpirit Awards Best Videogame Score Dead Space 2 Nominated
2011 Square Enix Music Outstanding Contribution by Composer - Won
2011 Square Enix Music Outstanding Contribution by Ensemble (Lacrimosa) Dead Space 2 Won
2011 Square Enix Music Best Score Might and Magic Heroes VI Nominated
2011 Hollywood Music in Media Best Original Score Dead Space 2 Nominated
2010 Square Enix Music Outstanding Contribution by Composer Alpha Protocol Nominated
2010 Square Enix Music Best Theme Instrumental Alpha Protocol Won
2009 Academy of Interactive Arts & Sciences Outstanding Achievement in Original Music Composition Dead Space Nominated
2009 Academy of Interactive Arts & Sciences Outstanding Achievement in Sound Design Dead Space Won
2008 Game Developers Choice Awards Audio Of The Year Dead Space Won
2008 GoldSpirit Awards Best Videogame Score Dead Space Nominated
2007 British Academy Games Awards Best Original Score Dead Space Won
2007 British Academy Games Awards Best Use of Audio Dead Space Won
2006 Academy of Interactive Arts & Sciences Outstanding Achievement in Original Music Composition Rise of the Kasai Nominated

- Jytdog (talk) 20:29, 2 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I would say it is quite common for an accurate and comprehensive list of awards from composers. In video game music especially because there are simply not as many awards to begin with. Jason Graves (talk) 16:50, 18 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
If somebody can go ahead and source every one of these, it probably could be re-added into the article as a collapsible template. ~ Dissident93 (talk) 11:12, 28 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
The sourcing won't be an issue, it seems like thee fairest thing to do. I do think it being collapsible is somewhat inconsistent, as most composers I have seen do not have it as collapsible in there articles. Perhaps just fixing the sourcing will suffice? Jason Graves (talk) 19:30, 10 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
In most areas of creative work, we list only awards won, not nominated, and only major awards, not minor ones. I do not know which are major and which are minor here, but to give an example: a national Emmy award won is major; a "regional Emmy" award won is minor. If a subject does not have major awards then minor awards are often mentioned, but they don't provide a strong argument for notability. In fact, emphasizing nominations and minor awards is a way to say: "this person isn't notable so I'm throwing in everything here to try to convince you that they are." It's like wp:REFSPAM - it tends to backfire. LaMona (talk) 21:07, 10 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Nominations can be mentioned as well. (See here and here), and the awards and nominations listed above are significant (SXSW, DICE, BAFTA etc.) Square Enix Music Awards are not a major one though. AdrianGamer (talk) 05:21, 11 April 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I would need to understand what you are defining as significant, AdrianGamer you seem to have a clearer understanding. I would say the Square Enix Music Awards could perhaps be excluded, as I believe those awards may even be defunct now. The others however are quite significant, thoughts? Jason Graves (talk) 13:27, 11 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Needs review for sourcing and NPOV[edit]

I'm moving the following here, as it is mostly unsourced and needs review for NPOV, and unsourced content needs sourcing, all by editors independent of the subject of this article.

Biography

Graves is a British Academy Award-winning composer who has created music for video game series such as Dead Space (EA), Star Trek (Bethesda), and Silent Hunter (Ubisoft).

Graves' musical background as a classically trained composer, jazz drummer, keyboardist, guitarist and world percussionist. As a result, his game credits alone include more than eighty titles, ranging from electronic and rock to full symphonic scores. He performs world percussion and guitar on many of his own scores and has conducted and recorded his live orchestral scores at Air Studios London, Capitol Records, Paramount Pictures, Skywalker Sound, and with the Seattle and Salt Lake City Philharmonic orchestras.

Graves also composes for film and television, and his music has been licensed for television shows such as American Idol and The Amazing Race.

Recent projects include two hybrid electronic/orchestral game scores - one for the popular City of Heroes franchise, entitled Going Rogue (N.C. Soft) and a second for Section 8 (SouthPeak Games). Graves also provided a live orchestral score for Dead Space Extraction, Electronic Arts's prequel to Dead Space.[1]

His Dead Space score won two BAFTA awards[2] - one for Original Score and one for Use of Audio.

In addition to the two BAFTAs, Graves' music has been honored with three Academy of Interactive Arts & Sciences (AIAS) Award nominations, winning "Outstanding Achievement in Audio" for Dead Space. He has received seventeen G.A.N.G. nominations and four wins, including "Audio of the Year" for Dead Space, "Best Original Theme" nominations for Star Trek: Legacy and Blazing Angels 2 and "Music of the Year" nominations for Dead Space and King Arthur. He has also worked with other Hollywood film composers such as Elmer Bernstein, John Debney, Harry Gregson-Williams, and Jerry Goldsmith.

Graves served as the composer for the 2013 Tomb Raider reboot, developed by Crystal Dynamics.[3]

On May 31 and June 1, 2013, Graves attended and guest conducted the world premiere live performances of music from Dead Space 3 and Tomb Raider at the Joystick 5 video game concert in Malmö, Sweden.

References

  1. ^ "Exclusive Interview: Composer Jason Graves Discusses Dead Space, F.E.A.R. 3 and Resistance: Burning Skies". Dread Central. Retrieved 15 May 2012.
  2. ^ "Interview: The Man Behind the Music - Jason Graves". Push Square. Retrieved 2016-02-08.
  3. ^ "The Final Hours of Tomb Raider Episode 3: The... | Tomb Raider Blog". Tombraider.tumblr.com. 2012-11-30. Retrieved 2016-02-08.

- Jytdog (talk) 20:32, 2 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I think I would be better off writing a new Bio from scratch and peering reviewing it. I feel this one has too many issues. Jason Graves (talk) 16:52, 18 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Opening Paragraph[edit]

Hello everyone, I am still quite new to this process, still learning much and I may make a few mistakes, but I am keen to have constructive, polite and honest dialogue about the future of Jason Graves wiki page. So lets get started! Here was what I propose for the opening paragraph, your thoughts and view are most welcome:

"Jason Graves is an American television, film and video game music composer. He is perhaps best known for his musical scores for Dead Space, a survival horror-action video game, the 2013 reboot of the Tomb Raider franchise, the third-person shooter set in an alternative history London The Order: 1886, Until Dawn, a survival horror adventure video game and more recently Far Cry Primal." Jason Graves (talk) 16:51, 18 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

  1. Replacing the existing opening with that leaves the article completely unsourced.
  2. Terms such as "perhaps best known for" smack of speculative WP:OR. Are there WP:RS's that say that he is best known for these things? If not, we don't say it. Meters (talk) 17:03, 18 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
I would suggest the you not start with the lede. The lede is a summary of the rest of the article. Since the rest of the article has been moved to the talk page for review there is nothing to summarize. If you start with lede you are in effect writing a short, self-contained article, complete with references. Since I assume that you do not intend to leave this as one paragraph article you much better off to review the original sections, get them back into the article, and then rewrite the lede. Meters (talk) 17:13, 18 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
OK, if the lede is indeed a summary of the body of the article I will plan for that to be done last. Jason Graves (talk) 17:54, 18 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Yep, see WP:LEAD if you want further clarity on that. Jytdog (talk) 18:39, 18 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Will do! Thanks Jason Graves (talk) 18:55, 18 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Let's find some sources[edit]

I'll start a list of potential sources for the article here. Hopefully others will contribute. Note that I am not saying that these are reliable sources, so that must be looked at for each one. (I'm not including interviews, of which there are many)

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