Talk:Joe Biden/Archive 12

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Compromise proposal: May 10

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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The actual May 10 version

This version I believe addresses all of our disagreements.

The purpose for this proposal can be seen through the edit summaries in my series of edits beginning here.It was reverted without comment on the content. Please comment below  Kolya Butternut (talk) 13:07, 10 May 2020 (UTC)Kolya Butternut (talk) 18:40, 10 May 2020 (UTC)

In April 2019, former Biden staffer Tara Reade said that she had felt uncomfortable on several occasions when Biden touched her on her shoulder and neck during her employment in his Senate office in 1993. In March 2020, Reade accused Biden of pushing her against a wall and digitally penetrating her while on Capitol Hill in 1993. On May 1, 2020, Biden said, "It's not true. I'm saying unequivocally it never, never happened, and it didn't. It never happened."

While The New York Times was investigating the Reade allegation,  no other allegation about sexual assault surfaced, and no pattern of sexual misconduct was found. 

 Kolya Butternut (talk) 12:42, 10 May 2020 (UTC)

Sources

The beginning of the last sentence can be changed to "Over the course of". One important goal is to separate this from the Reade paragraph.  Kolya Butternut (talk) 17:58, 10 May 2020 (UTC)

Alternate version

I will simply edit it this new version:

In April 2019, former Biden staffer Tara Reade said that she had felt uncomfortable on several occasions when he touched her on her shoulder and neck during her employment in his Senate office in 1993. In March 2020, Reade clarified her story, accusing Biden of pushing her against a wall and digitally penetrating her. Biden said, "It's not true. I'm saying unequivocally it never, never happened, and it didn't." While investigating the story, the New York Times found no other sexual assault allegations, and no pattern of sexual misconduct.

Sources

I still prefer the abbreviated version favored by SPECIFICO, but I can live with this is well. -- Scjessey (talk) 13:06, 10 May 2020 (UTC)

The sentence about what The Times found is not about the Reade allegation itself; it is about Biden's history which came up during the investigation, that's why I made it a separate paragraph.

The word "clarify" is unsourced. It is unneeded; it is clear from the context that she made a new allegation. "Clarify" is inaccurate; these are two separate things that happened to her while at Biden's office. Kolya Butternut (talk) 13:14, 10 May 2020 (UTC)

The NYT sentence does not need to be in a separate paragraph, because their investigation was predicated on Ms. Reade's complaint.

"Clarified" does not need to be sourced, because it isn't a quote. It is presented in Wikipedia's voice. If you prefer something sourced, "the story that both she and her corroborating witnesses are telling has changed dramatically." is available, so how about In March 2020, Reade changed her story dramatically, accusing Biden... instead? -- Scjessey (talk) 13:22, 10 May 2020 (UTC)

Why do you oppose The Times sentence being in a separate paragraph? You don't find my solution for compromise over this very contentious text to be reasonable?

I understand that you believe Reade's story is dubious, but we're not going to use a single Vox source when we have better sources, but we can discuss your Vox suggestion in another discussion. We're not going to use the contentious word "clarify" without sources. Again, "clarify" has nothing to do with this discussion; the word was neither in the previous version nor my suggestion. Please comment on my proposal. Kolya Butternut (talk) 13:33, 10 May 2020 (UTC)

We don't need to have a one-paragraph story spread out over two paragraphs, and since they are linked it makes perfect sense to keep them in the same paragraph.

"We're not going to use..." - Wikipedia is a collaborative effort. You don't get to dictate what is or isn't in an article. Reade CHANGED her story, which is HUGELY significant. We cannot possibly exclude such a detail while having all the other stuff you insist on having. I've SLIGHTLY edited the version you proposed, and THAT is my comment on your version. -- Scjessey (talk) 13:39, 10 May 2020 (UTC)

Please don't tone-police me.  We are not going to achieve consensus with unsourced contentious text.

No, you have not edited my proposal, you have suggested an edit to the existing text that is unrelated to my proposal.  Kolya Butternut (talk) 13:51, 10 May 2020 (UTC)

I literally copy/pasted your "My Proposed May 10 version" text and then edited it. -- Scjessey (talk) 13:53, 10 May 2020 (UTC)

That's pedantry.  Kolya Butternut (talk) 14:00, 10 May 2020 (UTC)

It's fact. I've made very few changes to your proposal:

1. I changed a "Biden" to "he" (too many Bidens).
2. I added the "clarified" bit.
3. I removed the "Capitol Hill" location (such details are best left to the main article on the allegation).
4. I shortened Biden's response (there was redundancy).
5. I rearranged the NYT bit and pulled it into the paragraph.

That's all I did. Nothing more complicated than that. -- Scjessey (talk) 14:12, 10 May 2020 (UTC)

You're missing my point.  No need to continue.  Kolya Butternut (talk) 14:33, 10 May 2020 (UTC)

To  Kolya Butternut - you copied this subsection on the WP talk page (here [1]) and asked people there to come here, to this subsection, and comment. Here's my comment:

Your edited text While The New York Times was investigating the Reade allegation, no other allegation about sexual assault surfaced, and no pattern of sexual misconduct was found. is ambiguous so may cause the WP reader to incorrectly infer that 'after' the NYT investigation 'more' allegations of sexual assault were found, and that would be a false inference.

Your edit was reverted to: "The New York Times reported that "No other allegation about sexual assault surfaced in the course of reporting, nor did any former Biden staff members corroborate any details of Ms. Reade's allegation. The Times found no pattern of sexual misconduct by Mr. Biden." This reverted text is very clear, not ambiguous at all, and it does just what you said what you want it to do on the other WP talk page where you wrote: "give information about Joe Biden's history, which is that nothing else like this is known to exist." So I support keeping the reverted text within this Joe Biden WP article. ~Respectfully BetsyRMadison (talk) 17:05, 10 May 2020 (UTC)

That's missing the point of my edit.  Kolya Butternut (talk) 17:38, 10 May 2020 (UTC)

What's the point it's missing? I also think the way it was reverted is much better. Smeat75 (talk) 18:13, 10 May 2020 (UTC)

I've tried to figure that out as well. As far as I can tell it's the word "clarified" - which I object to as well but I'm guessing not for the same reasons: She did not clarify her story, she changed it.  Gandydancer (talk) 18:20, 10 May 2020 (UTC)

It was to address the concerns in this discussion.  This alternate version is taking my proposal out of context.  We cannot discuss it if its purpose is ignored.  Look at my edit summaries.  Kolya Butternut (talk) 18:24, 10 May 2020 (UTC)

To Kolya Butternut - There's an old saying, "if it ain't broke, don't fix it." The reverted text is perfect as is and does exactly what you claim you want it to accomplish. I support keeping the reverted text within this WP article. BetsyRMadison (talk) 18:44, 10 May 2020 (UTC)

I assure you that your preferred text in no way addresses my concerns. In addition, there was never a consensus for this text. Kolya Butternut (talk) 18:48, 10 May 2020 (UTC)

That's substantially the same stable text that was in the article for about two weeks. The poll above was considering whether to keep that or to shorten it to a simpler bare-bones version. Consensus seemed to be going toward the latter. There's been no support for additional text that deprecates the NY Times. Quite the opposite on the talk page, at RSN, or, per several Admins at [here BLPN. I suggest we get back to the intial question, namely, the poll on Scjessey's proposed text here vs the current text. SPECIFICO talk 20:03, 10 May 2020 (UTC)

That text has not been stable.  Additional text is not equivalent to deprication.  Kolya Butternut (talk) 20:26, 10 May 2020 (UTC)

You can check a diff around 12 days prior. Very little change. I think there was one other bit that was added or removed in the meantiem. At any rate, we have a poll in progress on Scjessey's original minimalist text. Let's resolve that firs and then if it does not prevail, we can work on other alternatives. SPECIFICO talk 21:31, 10 May 2020 (UTC)

Updating NYT reporting

Since the original NYT investigation, more reporting has been done, and their latest piece includes the earlier work as well as the latest findings. Can we move forward with a proposal that includes the current state of the case, as well as Biden's responses? In their latest piece, the NYT wording doesn't use the Biden talking point about the "pattern", so this updated reporting is preferable for our use in that it is not outdated, and doesn't include COI. We could quote this verbatim and call it a day.

The New York Times interviewed dozens of workers in Mr. Biden’s office in the early 1990s and was unable to find anyone who remembered any kind of sexual misconduct against Ms. Reade or anyone else in the office. Five friends, former co-workers and family members have come forward to corroborate that Ms. Reade told them of an episode of either assault or harassment.  petrarchan47คุก 18:57, 10 May 2020 (UTC)

I assume that quote would go after the text "penetrating her"? If so I would support that instead of my proposal. Kolya Butternut (talk) 19:46, 10 May 2020 (UTC)

Support per Kolya Butternut. --Comment by Selfie City (talk about my contributions) 20:24, 12 May 2020 (UTC)

Reset the reset

This is gone beyond the ridiculous. There are now umpteen versions, claims, counter claims and even arguments over text not even worked out on this talk page. It's become almost impossible to understand what is going on. Yet again, I find myself proposing what I first proposed:

In March 2020, former Biden staffer Tara Reade accused him of sexual assault in 1993. Both Biden and his campaign denied the allegation.

This is the only way we can introduce stability into the article. Let the main article about the allegation be the battleground, not this BLP. The POV-pushing, edit warring and false claims of "consensus" must stop. -- Scjessey (talk) 19:29, 10 May 2020 (UTC)

I completely agree Scjessey, just put that into the article with a reference, remove the rest of it and have done with it for the moment.Smeat75 (talk) 23:27, 10 May 2020 (UTC)

Putting a new version in that clearly has no consensus and will get reverted will not be helpful.  Kolya Butternut (talk) 23:32, 10 May 2020 (UTC)

@Kolya Butternut: Except now it has the support of 6 editors (7, if you include SPECIFICO's support in the original reset thread). That's quite the consensus already. -- Scjessey (talk) 12:30, 11 May 2020 (UTC)

That's not what consensus means.  Kolya Butternut (talk) 13:08, 11 May 2020 (UTC)

After 15 years and 28,000 edits, I have a pretty good understanding of what "consensus" means, just as I hope you have an understanding of what "tendentious" means. -- Scjessey (talk) 13:19, 11 May 2020 (UTC)

This isn't a contest.  Making a decision about what to add without discussing the concerns of others is not how you form consensus.  Kolya Butternut (talk) 15:27, 11 May 2020 (UTC)Kolya Butternut (talk) 15:36, 11 May 2020 (UTC)

What "decision" are you referring to? I have simply stated there are 7 supporters of my proposed text, and perhaps 2(?) opposed. I haven't acted on the apparent consensus forming around my proposal, which is evident from both weight of argument and weight of numbers. -- Scjessey (talk) 15:30, 11 May 2020 (UTC)

I do not support your proposal.  You have been part of this edit war when you restored The Times quote which was never a consensus.  Reducing the text to your proposal encourages edit warring to acheive the desired results of less text.  I worked very hard at a compromise, but your suggested changes did not address the changes I was making to the existing text.  We cannot address disagreements by introducing more disagreements.  Kolya Butternut (talk) 19:53, 10 May 2020 (UTC)

Again with the revisionism. You keep on doing this, and it is why every attempt that every editor has made to negotiate with you has failed. At least pretend to want to cover this neutrally and in the proper weight. It's exasperating. -- Scjessey (talk) 22:24, 10 May 2020 (UTC)

What are you talking about?  My proposal was an extremely modest change.  Kolya Butternut (talk) 22:54, 10 May 2020 (UTC)

* Support - the version posted by Scjessey "In March 2020, former Biden staffer Tara Reade accused him of sexual assault in 1993. Both Biden and his campaign denied the allegation" should be used. It seems to me that if we're going to put in-depth details of Reade's 2020 story, then for balance we'd naturally need to put in-depth detail of Reade's 2019 story. For example, we'd have to include the fact that on 4/6/2019 Reade wrote that her story about Biden, “is not a story about sexual misconduct.” Reade wrote that in her essay (published at The Union [2]) as a follow-up to her 4/3 Union interview where she told the Union [3] that Biden touched only her neck and shoulders. And, since there is no in-depth detail of Reade's 2019 story, there should not be in-depth details of Reade's 2020 story. BetsyRMadison (talk) 21:44, 10 May 2020 (UTC)

• Support - the version posted by Scjessey. I agree with BRM's concerns as well. Also, above Petra suggests adding "Five friends, former co-workers and family members have come forward to corroborate that Ms. Reade told them of an episode of either assault or harassment." That makes it sound like what with five people all saying he's guilty, who could doubt that there must be some truth to her story? So then we would need to get into a lengthy report about how not only did her story keep changing her corroborater's stories kept changing right along with hers. Etc. IMO Scjessey's suggestion is the best one to use at least for now without getting into a long drawn out narration. After all, it's not as though our readers will be cheated of the full story and in fact are more likely to read the split article if only a couple of sentences are used here. Gandydancer (talk) 23:59, 10 May 2020 (UTC)

It's a direct quote from The Times summarizing their findings. If you would prefer fewer details, I feel my initial proposed compromise is generous. Kolya Butternut (talk) 01:08, 11 May 2020 (UTC)

The NYT article from Petra above is dated May 8,2020 where, within the paragraph Petra quotes, the NYT authors link to their "updated May 8, 2020"[4] original NYT article where they say they did not interview Reade's brother, NYT writes, "Ms. Reade said she also told her brother, who has confirmed parts of her account publicly but who did not speak to The Times" So, it seems to me we should stick with the original NYT article which is dated the same date as the NYT article Petra provides and keep Scjessey's version. BetsyRMadison (talk) 04:13, 11 May 2020 (UTC)

Support - Scjessey version - "In March 2020, former Biden staffer Tara Reade accused him of sexual assault in 1993. Both Biden and his campaign denied the allegation". That's all that is needed at this point. Takes care of any POV and WP:NOTNEWS issues. CBS527^Talk 01:49, 11 May 2020 (UTC)

• Support - Scjessey version. Clear and to the point. Manannan67 (talk) 03:12, 11 May 2020 (UTC)
• "Both Biden and his campaign" is unnecessary because of course Biden and his campaign will say the same thing. We can remove the word "both" but even then I'm not sure I support this proposal. --Comment by Selfie City (talk about my contributions) 16:03, 11 May 2020 (UTC)

SelfieCity, what about the other proposals? Kolya Butternut (talk) 02:05, 12 May 2020 (UTC)

@Kolya Butternut: In my opinion Joe Biden#Allegation of inappropriate physical contact would be best kept as it is until more, truly important information is released that is significant to the overall story — I wouldn't consider a NY Times investigation with inconclusive results significant to the overall story. --Comment by Selfie City (talk about my contributions) 20:28, 12 May 2020 (UTC)

• Support Scjessey version. Sometimes less is more. Aoi (青い) (talk) 21:30, 15 May 2020 (UTC)

@Scjessey: - Just returning to this after checking a different part of the article. It appears there was consensus for your minimalist text above. I suggest you do the honors and place it in the article. SPECIFICO talk 18:45, 27 May 2020 (UTC)

Done. -- Scjessey (talk) 21:44, 27 May 2020 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Where is the police report?

Drmies closed the RfC with That text is in the article now, two weeks later, and at least that part seems stable enough, though I admit I only looked at a few samples from the article history. At any rate, it's pretty much split down the middle, on political lines it seems (I'm shocked!); there are acceptable arguments on both sides. I'm going with "close as no longer necessary", for practical reasons; if edit warring starts over this, a new RfC should be started.

"That text" refers to "Reade filed a criminal complaint over the alleged assault on April 9 with the Washington D.C. Police."

I don't see the text in the article, and am wondering whether its removal was done with community consensus (and what was used for justification?). petrarchan47คุก 19:02, 21 May 2020 (UTC)

• I was referring to "...Reade accused Biden of pushing her against a wall..." In the earlier discussion, the first section of Talk:Joe Biden/Archive 10, you pointed to the RfC below, and so it seemed to me that that was the main matter of contention, the fingers. Are you saying all that talk, over two long sections and an RfC, was about the technicality of "criminal complaint"? Because that phrasing was actually somewhat doubtful, according to comments in that RfC. Drmies (talk) 00:24, 22 May 2020 (UTC)

Yikes, I didn't realize the link doesn't go directly to the proper RfC. I'm speaking of: "RfC: Should this article include Tara Reade's criminal complaint against Joe Biden?" As you'll note, that's where your comments are to be found. I'm asking the editors here about the fact that the lawsuit is not in the article at all. From this RfC close, it's removal doesn't seem to have consensus. Drmies petrarchan47คุก 02:00, 26 May 2020 (UTC)

What lawsuit? SPECIFICO talk 02:15, 26 May 2020 (UTC)

@Petrarchan47: What lawsuit? SPECIFICO talk 05:46, 26 May 2020 (UTC)

Petrarchan47, why did you use two fonts and font colors in that RfC? Maybe you should re-insert what you want in there and see if it flies, or simply start another, brief, RfC for that particular question. Sorry, I seemed to have missed that. Drmies (talk) 20:17, 26 May 2020 (UTC)

No worries. Not sure about the font. petrarchan47คุก 22:09, 30 May 2020 (UTC)

I'm not hearing a response from @Petrarchan47: as to the use of the word "lawsuit" here. I'm also at a loss to understand why the term "criminal complaint" is still being used when several editors have pointed out in some detail that a citizen's report to a law enforcement authority does not fall within the meaning of criminal complaint. Even for a public figure, these strike me as being BLP violations and certainly as confusing or misleading to our readers and to editors who come to this talk page for discussion. SPECIFICO talk 23:05, 26 May 2020 (UTC)

Why are we not mentioning the fact that Reade filed a police report? It seems to have been removed from the article and I’m asking why that is the case. petrarchan47คุก 20:19, 30 May 2020 (UTC)

Glad to see you back here @Petrarchan47:. Please respond to my question. To my knowledge, there has been no citation to document the existence of a "lawsuit". If you used that word to refer to Reade's having made her report to the police, the word "lawsuit" is false and should be stricken and not repeated here. SPECIFICO talk 21:00, 30 May 2020 (UTC)

Probably because per weight articles should not get into excessive detail about minor aspects. TFD (talk) 20:56, 30 May 2020 (UTC)

Oh that was a complete misspeak. I meant the report - it was in the article, and the RfC in question was simply to determine how we would refer to it. Now the entire thing is missing and I’m not seeing where the community discussed this. petrarchan47คุก 22:07, 30 May 2020 (UTC)

@Petrarchan47: The outcome of the discussion above (Talk:Joe Biden#Reset the reset) meant that all such things were shunted to the linked article per WP:WEIGHT. -- Scjessey (talk) 00:14, 31 May 2020 (UTC)

Drmies Do you agree with Scjessey's assessment above? I just reread your closing statement (at the top of this thread) and don't see how it jives with the contention that mention of the police report should not be in this article, and that, somehow, the RfC supports this. Deciding to "shunt" everything but "Reade said A, Biden said B" was never discussed AFAIK. petrarchan47คุก 23:22, 31 May 2020 (UTC)

I don't really have an opinion on Scjessey's assessment. Fun fact: I learned recently that it's "jibes", not "jives", which came as a surprise to me. Drmies (talk) 23:26, 31 May 2020 (UTC)

@Scjessey and Petrarchan47: - I've formally closed Talk:Joe_Biden#Compromise_proposal:_May_10. You can read my assessment. starship.paint (talk) 05:51, 1 June 2020 (UTC)

Racially Insensitive Comments

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Biden's comments about black voters recently received a lot of coverage. Should we include something about this and the subsequent apology in the article? Some sources: [5], [6], [7], [8] (NBC News on Youtube), [9]. Mr Ernie (talk) 07:33, 23 May 2020 (UTC)

• Mr Ernie, you might want to sign your comment. Symmachus Auxiliarus (talk) 07:04, 23 May 2020 (UTC)

No. WP:NOTNEWS. By tomorrow if not already people will forget about this and move on to the next fake outrage. Volunteer Marek 08:31, 23 May 2020 (UTC)

CornPop was a bad dude.  Kolya Butternut (talk) 13:11, 23 May 2020 (UTC)

Oh gzz I forgot about CornPop![10] PackMecEng (talk) 15:21, 23 May 2020 (UTC)

How could you forget! Kolya Butternut (talk) 22:47, 23 May 2020 (UTC)

No. I saw this, and it was nothing. The Beltway media tried to turn it into a Thing, but failed dismally. Notably, Chuck Todd tried to make it into a Big Deal and got his ass handed to him on live TV. In stark contrast, the man Trump described as "my African American" is now so disgusted with his behavior he has left the Republican Party. -- Scjessey (talk) 13:17, 23 May 2020 (UTC)

No. - I agree with Scjessey on this. BetsyRMadison (talk) 14:13, 23 May 2020 (UTC)

• No - The comment wasn't racially insensitive. It was typical Biden bluntness. It certainly isn't worthy of including in this biography. - MrX 🖋 14:16, 23 May 2020 (UTC)

No A similar issue has come up on the article about Trump and a number of other politicians. If someone makes frequent stupid comments that get reported, we need to be selective in which ones to report, otherwise the article would quickly turn into the sayings of Joe Biden. We already mention his comments about "put y'all back in chains" and have whole sections on busing and Gaffes. TFD (talk) 15:08, 23 May 2020 (UTC)

• No - Just typical Uncle Joe not understanding what he is saying. Keep an eye out if it becomes something but I doubt it will. So NOTNEWS and UNDUE for this article at the moment. PackMecEng (talk) 15:11, 23 May 2020 (UTC)
• No Black voters know the difference between an awkward ally and a virulent racist. This is a nothingburger that will pass in a day. Zaathras (talk) 15:18, 23 May 2020 (UTC)
• No. Isn't there already a section on his tendency for gaffes? Snooganssnoogans (talk) 15:46, 23 May 2020 (UTC)
  • Is that an argument for inclusion in that section? PackMecEng (talk) 15:51, 23 May 2020 (UTC)

  Not sure I follow you. Do you think this short blurb should be added there instead of a new section? Mr Ernie (talk) 16:31, 23 May 2020 (UTC)

• • No, the section should not start reciting every gaffe, just as sections on Donald Trump's racism shouldn't list every single racist thing he's said or done, the section on his lying shouldn't list every lie he's stated, or sections on all the sexual assault allegations shouldn't list every single sexual assault allegation. It's bad writing and a ridiculous way to restructure Wikipedia articles that are already large. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 17:10, 23 May 2020 (UTC)

• No This is one story that has already gone through the 24-hour news cycle and been resolved. There's nothing new here, Biden often puts his foot in his mouth, and we already have a good section on it that does not need to document every WP:FART his mouth utters. – Muboshgu (talk) 16:46, 23 May 2020 (UTC)
• Not now. This is a developing story. If this continues to receive significant coverage in reliable sources over a longer period of time, we may need to include this, but so far inclusion would be premature in light of WP:BALASP. In light of Biden's many race-related comments it may be appropriate to have an article such as Racial views of Joe Biden or Joe Biden race-related controversies. Zloyvolsheb (talk) 16:52, 23 May 2020 (UTC)

  Wow, no to creating either of those articles. We don't need to be making WP:POVFORKS. – Muboshgu (talk) 17:22, 23 May 2020 (UTC)

  I am 100% against POV forks, but we may have subarticles if a) there are sufficient sources dealing with this topic, and b) if it's too much to cover in a balanced way in a biographical article. Zloyvolsheb (talk) 17:31, 23 May 2020 (UTC)

  • We have the section in this article on his gaffes, which is sufficient. We have zero evidence that Biden holds any "racial views" outside of the norm, or that he's involved in any "race-related controversies". He's not out there refusing to disavow David Duke, or calling white supremacists "very fine people". He said something stupid about blackness and apologized in less than a day. – Muboshgu (talk) 17:33, 23 May 2020 (UTC)

    • Sure, but there could be further discussion apart from his gaffes, like talking about black kids and roaches or Indians at 7-11, or calling Obama the first clean-cut articulate African-American ("that's a storybook"). For example, he's also referred to the possibility of integration leading to a "racial jungle" at one point, and I'm not sure that can be called a gaffe. [11] He's also repeatedly made questionable claims about having been in the civil rights movement that we cut from the article previously per WP:BALASP, while a separate article on Biden and race could include discussion of those claims. Zloyvolsheb (talk) 17:42, 23 May 2020 (UTC)

      Give the old misleading talking points a rest. What happens with Trump is not relevant here. PackMecEng (talk) 19:09, 23 May 2020 (UTC)

      That's no talking point, it's an apples to apples comparison. Once the media starts analyzing Biden's racial views, which if I'm not mistaken they haven't, we can think about how to cover it on Wikipedia, starting this article, not a content fork. – Muboshgu (talk) 19:20, 23 May 2020 (UTC)

      The talking point is implying he never disavowed him or the context to the fine people quote. For the record I do not think Biden needs a racial views article either, I don't think anyone should have an article like that honestly. PackMecEng (talk) 19:24, 23 May 2020 (UTC)

      Has Trump clarified his comment on Nazi-sympathizer Henry Ford's "bloodlines" yet? Has Biden made any dog whistle comments? Not talking points, only pointing out the reality of disparity. – Muboshgu (talk) 21:17, 23 May 2020 (UTC)

      Again, what does any of those talking points have to do with this article besides WP:OTHERSTUFF? At this point you would be hard pressed to explain why this section should not be hatted as off topic and forum. PackMecEng (talk) 21:26, 23 May 2020 (UTC)

      Since we have a Racial views of Donald Trump page, I'm demonstrating how there is zero need for a Joe Biden version. Very much on topic. – Muboshgu (talk) 22:53, 23 May 2020 (UTC)

      Ha, do you really think a Racial Views of Uncle Joe is something likely to happen? Of course not, so stay on topic. PackMecEng (talk) 02:59, 24 May 2020 (UTC)

      Muboshgu, Will Black Voters Still Love Biden When They Remember Who He Was? Sir Joseph ^(talk) 01:55, 24 May 2020 (UTC)

      Biden’s history of controversial racial comments Sir Joseph ^(talk) 01:57, 24 May 2020 (UTC)

      You found one piece that talks about his policies over the course of his career, which is best covered in the Senate career section, and another piece from Fox News trying to throw together all of the verbal flubs Biden has made, which we shouldn't touch. – Muboshgu (talk) 18:44, 25 May 2020 (UTC)

      Muboshgu, "Racial Views of Joe Biden" have been covered for decades, since he was in Delaware. Let's not keep pretending to be unbiased when we have 30 zillion articles on Trump and we all know this would have been in the Trump article within minutes of him saying it, as many of his other statements throughout the years. Sir Joseph ^(talk) 01:44, 26 May 2020 (UTC)

      "Racial views" haven't been covered anywhere. Legislation that affects race has been. Those are two different things. – Muboshgu (talk) 15:31, 26 May 2020 (UTC)

      Muboshgu, this is from January. [12] Sir Joseph ^(talk) 16:23, 26 May 2020 (UTC)

      And what do you think this Huff Po piece is telling us, exactly? – Muboshgu (talk) 19:22, 26 May 2020 (UTC)

• Yes- this is not just a one time thing. He has a history of making comments like this. [13] [14] [15]--Rusf10 (talk) 17:03, 23 May 2020 (UTC)
• No Per WP:NOTNEWSPAPER. KidAd (talk) 20:42, 23 May 2020 (UTC)
• Comment - his comment was racially insensitive, and I agree that he has a long history of making racially insensitive comments. Calling it a "gaffe" does not make it not a racially insensitive comment. Kolya Butternut (talk) 22:57, 23 May 2020 (UTC)
• Yes of course this should be included. As Rusf10 points out, this is not the first time he has made such remarks. Remember how he called Obama "I mean, you got the first mainstream African-American who is articulate and bright and clean and a nice-looking guy," Biden's description of Obama draws scrutiny We all know this would be in a Trump article within minutes, let's not give those who say Wikipedia is biased any more ammunition. Biden has had many more gaffes, even from his Delaware days, so much that it can have its own article. Don't forget this one about Indian-Americans and 7-11, [16] and this, which has links to more offensive comments [17] "Recently, during an interview with the New York Times editorial board, he argued that poor black parents feel ashamed because they cannot read and skip parent-teacher conferences." Sir Joseph ^(talk) 01:40, 24 May 2020 (UTC)

To Sir Joseph - I read the Guardian article you linked to, and then clicked on the NYT link within that Guardian article to see for myself if Biden actually said what the Guardian author claims, and Biden did not. Biden did not say and did not argue "poor black parents feel ashamed because they cannot read and skip parent-teacher conferences" to the New York Times[18] editorial board. In fact, Biden did not say anything even closely resembling that. WP editors really need to be very careful when accusing someone of being "racist" or making "racist" comments. BetsyRMadison (talk) 10:55, 24 May 2020 (UTC)

Guardian opinion pieces are generally not worth the paper they're not printed on. SPECIFICO talk 11:26, 24 May 2020 (UTC)

That's harsh, but opinion pieces rarely meet rs anyway.It makes little sense to use them anyway, because their authors are generally writing about stories in the news. Why not use the news source directly, if one mentions it at all, rather than second hand through an ideological filter? TFD (talk) 13:27, 24 May 2020 (UTC)

• No This falls under undue, sensationalized news. RedHotPear (talk) 01:49, 24 May 2020 (UTC)
• No I can hope that WP will not hang onto every word uttered by Biden and try to cram it into his bio when it is reported in the media and used by the opposing party to show how utterly biased, stupid, too old to lead our great nation, and kerist who knows what else, until election day. But I am not keeping my hopes up, not one bit. (Please pardon my sarcasm.) Gandydancer (talk) 14:53, 25 May 2020 (UTC)
• Yes - to not include it is whitewashing via censorship. Considering the coverage, I see no valid reason to not include it, at least no reason that does not appear to be politically motivated which is why the neutrality of this article has raised question. He said it, and we should acknowledge it, not censor it. The disparity in the way this article is being handled was even mentioned by Jimbo and some in the media. Oh, and he used Wikipedia:Other stuff exists for the comparison: Having said that, I think that many (not all) cases of apparent political bias in Wikipedia are better understood against the backdrop of WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS. That is to say, the media outlet above made a direct comparison between our articles on Brett Kavanaugh and Joe Biden. ^Atsme _Talk 📧 18:22, 25 May 2020 (UTC) Adding RS: The Hill, WaPo - politiciansplainin, Fox News, BBC. Hopefully the closer will take the necessary time to weigh the reasons carefully. Numbers don't count - valid reasons do. ^Atsme _Talk 📧 18:30, 25 May 2020 (UTC)

  Jimbo's comments sound to me more like him suggesting editors threw too much into Kavanaugh's article on those allegations, not that there's not enough of allegations here. And yeah, WP:OTHERSTUFF on the comparison of Biden and Kavanaugh. – Muboshgu (talk) 18:40, 25 May 2020 (UTC)

  I took it to mean just the opposite, Mubo. It has to be taken in context with what he first said and the discussion I began on his UTP. Start with Jimbo adding his prior quote: "We have chosen a very tough job: NPOV. Dislike for the President, fear about things that are happening in the world, may make it emotionally harder to remain neutral, but remain neutral we must. I happen to personally think that given the decline in quality of the media across the board (there are still fantastic journalists out there, but overall the landscape isn't great) the best way for us to help the world heal is neutrality." Adding the unsubstantiated allegations against Kavanaugh who was relatively unknown is what he's referring to whereas Biden is a public figure so a different set of rules apply. There is also corroboration regarding the Biden allegation whereas with Kavanaugh there was not. The neutrality of this BLP has been challenged, and the clean-up tags need to be resolved as well as article length - if we can get those issues resolved, we're on our way to renominating it for GA - provided of course we can keep it stable throughout the process and remove the protection. ^Atsme _Talk 📧 18:53, 25 May 2020 (UTC)

  I can see that. But, Biden and Kavanaugh are both public figures. Kavanaugh as a federal judge was a public figure before his SCOTUS nom, but much as Bork and Thomas experienced, being a SCOTUS nom puts a huge microscope on you. The clean up and neutrality tags were added by you, just now. What exactly are you thinking "resolves" this? Adding to Joe Biden#Gaffes? I acknowledge that section may be too short. – Muboshgu (talk) 19:22, 25 May 2020 (UTC)

  Muboshgu, I only added the neutrality tag at the top of the article, nothing else. The section clean-up tags were already in place. I understand and respect your position and POV, and want to help make the article better but at the same time, I don't want to be involved in the ongoing POV wars and controversies. When editing WP, I am divorced from politics and see only GA/FA status/promotion in our articles which should come as no surprise because it has been my objective from day one. I have long since learned to recognize POV resistance, and when to stop arguing, and it appears I have reached that point. I do appreciate that you recognize the shortfalls of the gaffe section, but we must be careful when adding more to a section because, at the same time, we are adding more to overall length which is another concern. ^Atsme _Talk 📧 20:28, 25 May 2020 (UTC)

  I said the gaffe section is too short, how is that POV resistance? – Muboshgu (talk) 19:20, 26 May 2020 (UTC)

  Muboshgu - the article is whitewashed. There is nothing in the lead about any controversy, as if none exists. There is nothing about his inappropriate behavior which dates back to his Senate days - nothing about the sexual abuse allegation per WP:LEAD which states ...summarize the most important points, including any prominent controversies. It's an extremely prominent controversy, and it will not go away by ignoring it. The latter also refers to NPOV and DUE. There is nothing about the Ukrainian investigation, despite coverage by WaPo, and AP, etc. Another issue is the attempt to keep his racist comment out of the article despite WP:PUBLICFIGURE: ...which means representing fairly, proportionately, and, as far as possible, without editorial bias, all the significant views that have been published by reliable sources on a topic. There are quite a few issues, some of which I referenced in the GAR. The denials of noncompliance with NPOV that I read during the GAR and now with the removal of the NPOV tag I added to this article because of the lead, the body text, the revert of my edit and attempt to hide the many inappropriate behavior claims in a sub-section where it doesn't belong, the opposition to the inclusion of his racist statement(s) - all of it is quite disturbing...and it is getting quite a bit of negative attention from MSM. I was simply trying to help get this article fixed but it isn't happening because of the POV issues - POV issues are noncompliant with NPOV, and it certainly doesn't represent a stable article. ^Atsme _Talk 📧 11:19, 31 May 2020 (UTC)

  Atsme, Biden's lead is already five paragraphs, which is beyond MOS guidance for leads. Adding would require subtracting, and I do not believe that Joe's questionable behavior, off the cuff remarks, or the sexual assault allegation are significant enough for the lead. Just for comparisons sake, George W Bush was highly known for his malapropisms. His lead makes no mention of it. Donald Trump has been accused of sexual assault by about 40 women. His lead makes no mention of it. The line has to be drawn somewhere. One sexual assault allegation that looks dubious on its merits shouldn't be included in the lead. The Ukraine story is a complete nothingburger, aside from Trump's attempts to pressure a sovereign nation to interfere in our election, and it has no bearing on Biden. The Ukraine story is the impeachment. Adding it to the lead would appear to me an attempt at WP:FALSEBALANCE, which violates NPOV. – Muboshgu (talk) 19:26, 31 May 2020 (UTC)

  Muboshgu...with the utmost respect, and for the sake of clarity, please confirm - you believe the sexual assault allegation is not significant enough for the lead, correct? I certainly hope our encyclopedia has evolved beyond the politics of a sexual assault per that woman's allegations but if it hasn't, I just want to know what rules I'm supposed to follow because DUE doesn't appear to be gaining favor, and I was of the mind that NPOV is a core content policy. As for the lead, at least 2 paragraphs of promotion can be eliminated, and that would allow room for the substantial controversies that warrant inclusion. If we are going to maintain WP as a reputable encyclopedia (maybe not reliabe but reputable nonetheless), we should not sweep controversies under the carpet and keep only the glowing reviews in the lead. ^Atsme _Talk 📧 20:37, 31 May 2020 (UTC)

  Atsme, given the extent of Biden's career and what we have experienced with the Tara Reade accusation, I don't think it's DUE to include. I don't think I'm alone in believing that. I don't see two paragraphs of promotion in the lead. The last paragraph suffers from RECENTISM a little bit and can be trimmed, sure. – Muboshgu (talk) 20:44, 31 May 2020 (UTC)

  Muboshgu, have you read this article? Media sees the problem, and mentions WP's treatment of the Biden - Reade issue. I was embarassed by it, and the problem isn't even my doing. It just is not good for the project to have such a dichotomy (or blatant partisanship) in the way we treat political BLPs. I'm done here. ^Atsme _Talk 📧 23:59, 31 May 2020 (UTC)

  Atsme, assuming that there is a problem with the coverage, it's still not on us to right great wrongs. Wikipedia reflects the sources, which have been much more skeptical of Reade than Blasey Ford. – Muboshgu (talk) 00:27, 1 June 2020 (UTC)

• Yes and this has nothing to do with politics, or whether I personally find Biden to be racist - those opinions have no bearing on what constitutes encyclopedic fodder. NPOV is the law of the land. We all have biases, and the remedy is to abide by policy. It was covered by CNN, WaPo, Vox, NBC, Politico (and many more - a Google search of "Biden, You ain't black" returns 82,900,000 results); it deserves mention here. He's been called out for similar stuff before, as Columbia University's John McWhorter says, Biden holds "views on race minted in another time". He writes in the Atlantic August 2019,

...but still—“white” kids versus “poor” ones. The reason even Biden’s fans are cringing at this remark is that it implies an equation between being poor and being a person of color, and perhaps also that all high-achieving students are white.

And it isn’t the first time Biden has let slip sociological assumptions of this kind. Who can forget Biden sunnily crowing that Barack Obama, when first running for president, was a godsend in being a “mainstream” African American who combined the traits of being “articulate and bright and clean.”*

The instances that have made major news should be in this article. Political implications cannot be a consideration in an encyclopedia.

petrarchan47คุก 01:31, 26 May 2020 (UTC)

No idea what Sanger has to do with any of this. Volunteer Marek 07:22, 26 May 2020 (UTC)

Absolutely nothing, so I took the liberty and deleted it. WP:NOTAFORUM 46.97.170.78 (talk) 10:41, 28 May 2020 (UTC)

• I didn't really intend for this to be a vote type thing, more of a discussion, but since we're doing it yes, per Atsme and Rusf10. It's well known that black people overwhelmingly vote for democrats [19], [20], [21], [22] , and a comment like that seems to take that for granted. Mr Ernie (talk) 13:30, 26 May 2020 (UTC)

• If we were to accept Mr Ernie's premise -- that Biden was merely stating the obvious -- that would seem to be a decisive argument for no, i.e. against any mention in this bio article. SPECIFICO talk 14:14, 26 May 2020 (UTC)

• No. I don't like the attitude that Wikipedia should bend over backwards to avoid inevitable accusations of bias from people who are wrong/partisan. I find it silly to entertain the idea that the main article on a major public figure would include an off-the-cuff statement that was walked back within 24 hours. (To make this a "policy-based argument", I'll cite WP:RECENTISM). userdude 16:20, 26 May 2020 (UTC)
  • I find it silly to entertain the idea that the main article on a major public figure would include an off-the-cuff statement that was walked back within 24 hours. Echoing this; it is a good point. RedHotPear (talk) 18:27, 26 May 2020 (UTC)
    • I find it silly to entertain the idea that the main article on a major public figure would include an off-the-cuff statement that was walked back within 24 hours. Echoing this echo. It's patently absurd that we should even be considering inclusion of this. WP:NOTNEWS was specifically written to handle exactly this kind of situation. -- Scjessey (talk) 16:24, 27 May 2020 (UTC)
• Absolutely not. This is wikipedia, not some alt right propaganda outlet. We don't cover irrelevant, politically motivated rumors. I don't understand how anyone could even consider this. On a sidenote, user: Mr Ernie has a history or making politically motivated edits to whitewash the GOP. Maybe some of the moderators should investigate him. 46.97.170.78 (talk) 08:17, 28 May 2020 (UTC)

  Feel free to point out what you think are problematic edits at a noticeboard, if you think I need to be investigated. Mr Ernie (talk) 08:22, 28 May 2020 (UTC)

  Not a forum. 46.97.170.78 (talk) 10:33, 28 May 2020 (UTC)

Yes Per above. 2A00:1370:812C:1186:613B:2D52:478A:8631 (talk) 16:09, 28 May 2020 (UTC)— 2A00:1370:812C:1186:613B:2D52:478A:8631 (talk) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

• No UNDUE NOTNEWS - This is why it's pointless to launch a poll before some discussion and some plausible rationale. It was gone from the news by the following day. SPECIFICO talk 01:12, 29 May 2020 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

It would seem "no" is the prevailing view, with very little support for inclusion. This is basically a WP:SNOW situation, so I will shortly be closing this discussion. -- Scjessey (talk) 13:08, 29 May 2020 (UTC)

Scjessey - I'm sorry, I've reverted your close. You've weighed in, I don't think you should be closing it the same way you voted. I've asked for an uninvolved close at WP:ANRFC. starship.paint (talk) 06:20, 31 May 2020 (UTC)

@Starship.paint: It's a pretty clear consensus for "no" here. Also, it wasn't an RfC, so I would argue a more formal close would be unnecessary. -- Scjessey (talk) 18:04, 1 June 2020 (UTC)

@Scjessey: - I'm aware that it wasn't an RfC, unfortunately, this page has become very controversial, and I feel that an uninvolved close would be a more definitive outcome for all involved. Also, if the outcome is so clear, it shouldn't be hard for someone else to close it? starship.paint (talk) 02:48, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

@Starship.paint: Well, you are the only person who objected to the close, which is weird because I suspect you agree entirely with the outcome. Seems like a waste of time to me, when the outcome is so obvious. -- Scjessey (talk) 12:14, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

Scjessey - I have not judged the outcome for myself. starship.paint (talk) 12:17, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Revert of main link addition

This edit reverted a main article link. The editor that reverted says the article is linked below and the consensus is against the main link. Is there a consensus against a main link form this section to its main article? Also i do not find the link “below”. —¿philoserf? (talk) 18:10, 8 June 2020 (UTC)

It's in the third paragraph: In March 2020, Reade accused him of sexual assault in 1993. Biden and his campaign denied the allegation. As far as consensus is concerned, the "main" link is just another version of the "see also" link discussed in #Apparent consensus above. -- Scjessey (talk) 20:48, 8 June 2020 (UTC)

Scjessey, Third paragraph of the lead? it is not in the See also or a see also template. Wherever it is it is well hidden. i have scanned the article multiple time. perhaps it is time for an RfC on the more typical main link. —¿philoserf? (talk) 01:44, 9 June 2020 (UTC)

This proves my point. If you're looking for it and can't find it, then what are the chances that the average reader will click on it?--Rusf10 (talk) 03:53, 9 June 2020 (UTC)

It's right there in the third paragraph of the section. How can you guys not see it? I even included the text (with the link) in my response above! -- Scjessey (talk) 14:39, 9 June 2020 (UTC)

• Where is the original consensus????? The discussions pointed to above do not even mention having the link there. The link was there for nearly 2 months (around the time the spinoff article was created and survived an AfD) without any debate. Now, all of a sudden there is consensus to remove it? Trying to diminish the allegations by burying them in the article is a violation of WP:PUBLICFIGURE which says "if an allegation or incident is noteworthy, relevant, and well documented, it belongs in the article—even if it is negative and the subject dislikes all mention of it. " The alleged incident was clearly notable enough to create a spin-off article, so it needs to be linked in a place where our readers can easily find it. Removing this link and whitewashing the article is really doing a disservice to our readers.--Rusf10 (talk) 22:10, 8 June 2020 (UTC)
• @Scjessey: There is absolutely not consensus against it. There may not be consensus for it, but there is certainly not consensus against it. userdude 22:24, 8 June 2020 (UTC)

I am not interested in rehashing this again. It's all been discussed before, and it is in the archives. -- Scjessey (talk) 14:39, 9 June 2020 (UTC)

Not in the archives, the existence of the link was never discussed before.--Rusf10 (talk) 18:41, 9 June 2020 (UTC)

Apparent consensus

@UserDude: Please, point out the apparent consensus for the "See also" link because it is not apparent to me. Also, you moved the section back into Post vice presidency without mentioning it in your edit summary and without stating a reason. Space4Time3Continuum2x (talk) 12:59, 3 June 2020 (UTC)

I stridently object to this "apparent consensus" and I have just removed the offending and redundant "see also" link. We already link to the article in question in the body of the section, so this was merely a "badge of shame" situation. -- Scjessey (talk) 13:08, 3 June 2020 (UTC)

(edit conflict) @Space4Time3Continuum2x: I consider the results of Talk:Joe_Biden/Archive_11#Tara_Reade_reset and Talk:Joe_Biden/Archive_11#NYT_on_Reade consensus for including the {{see also}} template. There is no, so you may reasonably disagree that there is a consensus, in which case consider my revert part of the WP:BRD process. Linking to a full article about an event at the top of a subsection about that event is a quintessential use of WP:HAT. userdude 13:21, 3 June 2020 (UTC)

As for moving the subsection, I apologize — this was an accidental result of an edit conflict that I didn't notice. I am (currently) neutral to the position of the subsection. You have my blessing to move it back without violating WP:1RR. userdude 13:21, 3 June 2020 (UTC)

I see no consensus for that link. It's the same kind of conflation and innuendo that has been decisively rejected at the current RfC on the section header. The Reade assault allegation is an increasingly marginal bit. We have gone to great effort to treat it fully and fairly, but it has not turned out to have legs. SPECIFICO talk 13:27, 3 June 2020 (UTC)

Who are you to judge whether it has legs? Sure we do not if the allegation is true, but it doesn't have to be. The fact that multiple reliable sources have reported it means it get include. Editors cannot chose to not include something because it makes a public figure they like look bad. As per WP:PUBLICFIGURE- If an allegation or incident is noteworthy, relevant, and well documented, it belongs in the article—even if it is negative and the subject dislikes all mention of it. If you cannot find multiple reliable third-party sources documenting the allegation or incident, leave it out. For example, "Example: A politician is alleged to have had an affair. It is denied, but multiple major newspapers publish the allegations, and there is a public scandal. The allegation belongs in the biography, citing those sources. However, it should state only that the politician was alleged to have had the affair, not that the affair actually occurred."--Rusf10 (talk) 03:58, 9 June 2020 (UTC)

We ALREADY had this discussion. The consensus was to NOT have "sexual assault" in the section title, and trying to get it in there by means of a "see also" or "main" link to circumvent that consensus will not fly. -- Scjessey (talk) 14:43, 9 June 2020 (UTC)

First that RFC has not been closed yet. Second, the RFC is on the title, not anything else. You cannot have a consensus on something that has not even been discussed. Stop trying to act like the link was inserted later to "circumvent" the consensus because the fact is the link was there before the discussion even started.--Rusf10 (talk) 18:40, 9 June 2020 (UTC)

The link is unnecessary. It is ALREADY in the section. The only reason to duplicate it in the way you are suggesting is to pursue an agenda. -- Scjessey (talk) 20:58, 9 June 2020 (UTC)

I'm pursuing an agenda? (I guess you don't WP:AGF) What's yours? It is to bury negative information about Biden? (to the point the entire allegation is reduced to two sentences) I hope not, I really want to believe that you are better than that. We have a policy, WP:PUBLICFIGURE, that says to include allegations even if they are negative and haven't been proven, as long as there is reliable source coverage (In this case there is plenty). I guess I missed the part about the policy that says it doesn't apply to Democratic presidential candidates. Certainly every allegation ever made against Trump, no matter how trivial is included in his various articles, but surely Biden needs to be treated differently. As for my "agenda" here, I don't strive to make Biden look bad, I just want the article to have WP:BALANCE. The topic was important enough to write an entire spinoff article, it deserves more than two sentences and a buried link.--Rusf10 (talk) 23:11, 9 June 2020 (UTC)

((ping|Rusf10}} Your remark to Scjessey, (I guess you don't WP:AGF) What's yours? It is to bury negative information about Biden? (to the point the entire allegation is reduced to two sentences) is a personal attack. As you are well aware, there was an extended poll and overwhelming consensus to limit the assault allegation to the current 2-sentence article text. I suggest you strike your remark and take care not to repeat such attacks in the future. SPECIFICO talk 23:49, 9 June 2020 (UTC)

@SPECIFICO:, please give me a break. It's no more of an attack than The only reason to duplicate it in the way you are suggesting is to pursue an agenda. (and you took my comments out of context by removing the sentence before and after) and you know that. Back on topic, what Scjessy said was Let the main article about the allegation be the battleground, not this BLP. Okay and leave the details to the other article then we can't bury the link the that main article about the allegation. I thought the entire point of keeping it short was to direct people to the other article, but no one said let's remove the link at the top of the section which was already in existence at that time.--Rusf10 (talk) 01:23, 10 June 2020 (UTC)

Also, WP:BLP trumps WP:PUBLICFIGURE. It's clear from the coverage in reliable sources that Ms. Reade's claim is dubious at best, so that is why we settled on the two sentence language that we did. Neither of the proposed hatnotes are necessary, since the article in question is already linked. No, it is clear this is just an attempt to label Biden with a "badge of shame" and we're not falling for it. -- Scjessey (talk) 01:00, 10 June 2020 (UTC)

No, one does not trump the other, PUBLICFIGURE is part of BLP. So how can BLP say something different when PUBLICFIGURE is literally part of BLP? (It's on the same page)--Rusf10 (talk) 01:23, 10 June 2020 (UTC)

You misunderstand. The body of WP:BLP trumps the single part. Consider this important part of the summary:

Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a tabloid: it is not Wikipedia's job to be sensationalist, or to be the primary vehicle for the spread of titillating claims about people's lives; the possibility of harm to living subjects must always be considered when exercising editorial judgment.

Unnecessarily doubling the number of links to an article covering a highly dubious and controversial claim violates the part where it says Wikipedia should not be "the primary vehicle for the spread of titillating claims" by elevating the prominence of this dubious claim. Even WP:PUBLICFIGURE says "BLPs should simply document," adding "denial(s) should also be reported." That is exactly what we have done here. We have covered the claim in the prominence it deserves, in language painstakingly worked out in multiple discussions and an RfC. What you are proposing is basically an abuse of a hatnote. -- Scjessey (talk) 13:42, 10 June 2020 (UTC)

Prez nominee or presumptive Prez nominee

Though he's now got a majority of the pledged delegates for his party's presidential nomination. He's still the presumptive nominee, until the majority of delegates 'actually' vote for (i.e. nominate) him in August (at the convention). GoodDay (talk) 13:41, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

Yes, this is absolutely correct. -- Scjessey (talk) 13:52, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

Editors keep removing "presumptive ". I reverted it once but can't do it again due to the 1RR rule. Delegates haven't voted yet, he might die, the world might come to an end first, who knows? He is the presumptive democratic candidate at the moment. Smeat75 (talk) 23:50, 10 June 2020 (UTC)

You are correct. There are enough editors here to keep a check on this, despite the 1RR rule. It's very annoying, and it is one of those things that makes the 1RR rule very frustrating. -- Scjessey (talk) 11:02, 11 June 2020 (UTC)

Presidential Candidate Joe Biden Calls on Facebook to Stop Allowing Lies in Political Ads

Presidential Candidate Joe Biden Calls on Facebook to Stop Allowing Lies in Political Ads Cycent (talk) 18:07, 12 June 2020 (UTC)

Uh huh. Maybe something on this belongs at Joe Biden 2020 presidential campaign, but not on this page. – Muboshgu (talk) 19:06, 12 June 2020 (UTC)

There appears to be a BLP violation in this article

These specific lines, I believe, should be deleted:

Kinnock's speech included the lines: Q:

Why am I the first Kinnock in a thousand generations to be able to get to university? [Then pointing to his wife in the audience] Why is Glenys the first woman in her family in a thousand generations to be able to get to university? Was it because all our predecessors were thick?

While Biden's speech included the lines:

I started thinking as I was coming over here, why is it that Joe Biden is the first in his family ever to go to a university? [Then pointing to his wife in the audience] Why is it that my wife who is sitting out there in the audience is the first in her family to ever go to college? Is it because our fathers and mothers were not bright? Is it because I'm the first Biden in a thousand generations to get a college and a graduate degree that I was smarter than the rest? /Q

This is no plagiarism or ethics violation. Ideas are not copyrightable; exact wording is. But I have no objection to documenting any falsehoods uttered about his education & the Sam Donaldson expose. (PeacePeace (talk) 23:01, 13 June 2020 (UTC))

The interpretation in reliable sources is that Biden copied the story from Kinnock. Are you saying that he came up with it as he was coming over? TFD (talk) 23:20, 13 June 2020 (UTC)

We don't need opinions (interpretations), but facts. Negative opinions on Biden should not be part of the article. The wording in the two comparison paragraphs is different. Can't you see that? "Copy" is a weasel work in this context. Using the general idea somebody puts out is quite ethical and not plagiarism. Using exact wording is plagiarism and unethical. (PeacePeace (talk) 19:24, 14 June 2020 (UTC))

If you feel the article text misrepresents RS accounts of this, you can remove it and take things from there. The article doesn't accuse him of plagiarism -- it says the incident hurt his candidacy. Especially when the more serious accusation arose shortly afterward. SPECIFICO talk 21:37, 14 June 2020 (UTC)

Plagiarism, according to Webster's, means "to steal and pass off (the ideas or words of another) as one's own : use (another's production) without crediting the source." It doesn't require exact wording. When there is consensus in expert opinion, we usually report it as fact, whether it's global warming or where Obama was really born. TFD (talk) 00:35, 15 June 2020 (UTC)

New leaked phone calls Poroshenko-Biden about Naftogaz of Ukraine (from 3 hours ago)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VZfOYYbS5hc, english https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ei6O14Td89g Even more disturbing than the first part so far (I watch it right now). So the 6 million $USD Burisma was fake news! It was actually 50 million $USD! 2A00:1FA0:4486:F040:C5A6:86D2:DC14:CAF3 (talk) 01:01, 23 June 2020 (UTC)

Find reliable sources. Like this one: [23] – Muboshgu (talk) 02:22, 23 June 2020 (UTC)

Oh I Googled this: it's more of nothing from Andrii Derkach. I'm sure we will continue to see snippets of leaked audio from him for the next five months, and it'll continue to add up to nothing. But, if a reliable source covers it, we can discuss it. – Muboshgu (talk) 02:24, 23 June 2020 (UTC)

Well, this does not look like nothing https://drive.google.com/file/d/1GQ_4w287LdCXVyuTlinoPhMNxqvfPmgT/view (vector pdf https://drive.google.com/file/d/1vB1thHR9cPCyutBFpcEzRJDu4gC1vH6u/view) IMHO, this will be even more cool than Clinton emails were. 👏👏👏2A00:1FA0:4486:F040:C5A6:86D2:DC14:CAF3 (talk) 03:15, 23 June 2020 (UTC)

GA Reassessment

This discussion is transcluded from Talk:Joe Biden/GA3. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the reassessment.

• The article's neutrality has been questioned, it is clearly not stable and has been subject to full PP because of edit warring. Perhaps it can be reassessed after the 2020 election when things have calmed down but as it stands now, it fails GA. ^Atsme _Talk 📧 14:59, 15 April 2020 (UTC)

  I agree, this is a clear delist for the time being. Mz7 (talk) 17:32, 15 April 2020 (UTC)

• It was promoted to GA back in 2008, before he even became VP. The article has since grown by leaps and bounds, and is unrecognizable compared to the 2008 version. Now I do harbor some hope that the article can be kept at status however, as was done with Obama's article. Obama was made an FA in 2004. It received a whopping 10 FA reviews between 2007 and 2012, but hard working contributors ensured that it kept FA status throughout Obama's campaign and presidency. Now...do I think that could be done here? Perhaps. But unless a group of contributors is willing to come together to save it, I would opt to delist (And no, I don't have time to join a GA team I'm afraid). My main concerns is neutrality, especially as we come into the election. Everything is pretty much sourced, but I would like to see a thorough source review. I personally don't think stability is an issue as long as any controversial changes are made into RfC's and gain consensus...which is probably how most big edits to this page are going to need to be made in the next year anyway. CaptainEek ^{Edits Ho Cap'n!}⚓ 19:32, 16 April 2020 (UTC)

That isn't how GA works, CaptainEek. We don't leave it with a GA rating when there is edit warring and controversy surrounding it. If it ever settles down, it can be renominated. Just because it passed in 2008, doesn't mean it remains a GA 12 years later. That's why we have GAR. It would be a different story if we were looking at promoting it to FA but that certainly isn't the case now. ^Atsme _Talk 📧 21:41, 16 April 2020 (UTC) ^{CaptainEek, after going back and reviewing your input, I'm concerned that I may have misunderstood your view about stability, and apologize if I came across too matter-of-factly. I'm of the mind that stability and NPOV are like bacon and eggs - they go together. 😊 Atsme _Talk 📧 23:56, 21 April 2020 (UTC)}

Atsme, we also do not delist without mentioning specific issues that makes it fall below GA. I do not think it is as unstable as you say. We should go for a couple editors to do a full review and see if some other editors can take care of any issues and rescue it. --- C&C (Coffeeandcrumbs) 03:12, 17 April 2020 (UTC)

Atsme, No worries, thanks for the clarification :) CaptainEek ^{Edits Ho Cap'n!}⚓ 00:22, 23 April 2020 (UTC)

• At the time this GAR was written (15 April): "as it stands now" edit warring had long ceased ("stability"), full page protection had ceased (in-line with the closing of an RfC dealing with BLP matters), and neutrality concerns remain(?) for a section in the article that is continuously being worked on (something that happens on Wikipedia every day). If the nominator for this GAR could please elaborate further as to why this article should be delisted, that'd be great. —MelbourneStar☆^talk 04:15, 17 April 2020 (UTC)
• Delist If it was going to be at GAN right now it would be an immediate fail as there is edit warring and several content disputes. Since it already is a GA but now is experencing edit warring, has content disputes and apparently editors have questioned the article's neutrality, it fails GA as shown here.--MONGO (talk) 19:20, 17 April 2020 (UTC)
• Remove GA It's not one. It won't be one during the election season. It fails a number of GA criteria and does not resemble the article that was assessed as a GA. There are major content RfC's, edit warring, content forks, and various other distractions. ConstantPlancks (talk)
• Remove GA As it stands, our article Joe Biden is partisan campaign literature in large part. Not only is it subject to edit warring, but there is massive partisan editing to minimize Biden's recent gaffes and accusations that Biden has engaged in nonconsensual physical contact with women up to and including fingerbanging a staffer while he was in the United States Senate. Compare our article Brett Kavanaugh to this article and it's apparent the degree to which this article glosses over important issues which were brought up in our article on Brett Kavanaugh.

The degree of political slant in Joe Biden makes a mockery of our WP:NPOV ethic. --loupgarous (talk) 17:30, 19 April 2020 (UTC)

• Here following a notice at the reassessment page. I am very familiar with the GAR process from a practical standpoint and don't really care about American politics if that is an issue. I haven't looked at the article yet, I am just commenting on what I am seeing at this page. This has been opened as an individual reassessment. This means that the person opening it is supposed to close it. Other comments are welcome, but in the end it is up to Atsme to close it as they see fit. In best practise the person opening the reassessment presents some clear examples of how it fails the criteria. However, we don't delist for edit warring or ongoing rfcs. The stability criteria is more a practical criteria for reviewers (it is hard to review an article if it is constantly changing). By the same principle, if there is an ongoing content dispute it is better to wait for that to settle down before conducting a reassessment. Also the GAR process should not be used as a tool to resolve content disputes (not saying that is the case here, but I have seen this in the past). AIRcorn (talk) 21:58, 19 April 2020 (UTC)
• While this is formatted as an individual reassessment, I will note that a lot of the comments here aren't particularly helpful. Assertions that an article fails one of the criteria are easy to make, but in the absence of substantiating evidence, carry no weight, and are not actionable. With respect to political articles in particular, assertions that an article fails NPOV are a dime a dozen. To be constructive GAR comments, opinions here need to get into the substance of what needs to change in the article, and why, with specific reference to the source material. Vanamonde (Talk) 02:10, 20 April 2020 (UTC)
• Thank you all very much for the input, but I disagree with the "keep" sentiment as this is a totally different article from the one that was promoted in 2008. The new article fails GA criteria which is why we have GAR, but there is more to it as the following will demonstrate:

1. GA/FA promotion has been my focus as a WP editor since 2011, and I was taken back a step or two when I discovered this article was promoted over a decade ago under dubious circumstances; the latter of which is part of the reason I initiated this GAR.
2. The article is not stable which makes it an immediate fail. It also requires a level of PP because of the disagreements regarding content - keeping in mind that consensus decides what does or does not get included but consensus can change, so if PP and DS are in place, and RfCs are ongoing as more material is added/removed, it tells us the article lacks stability and does not meet GA criteria; rather, it is a work in progress. As most long-standing editors are aware, edit wars and disputes typically arise when there are NPOV issues, and it matters not if the article is political or happens to be about dogs. An unstable article that gets promoted despite failing GA criteria makes a mockery of the process, especially when the instability is not caused by vandalism, and full protection has to be applied.
3. When an article wears the GA symbol and doesn't qualify, it sends the wrong message to editors and readers alike. It also depreciates the hard work that I and other longtime editors have invested as reviewers/promoters over the years.
4. After carefully reviewing this article from when it was first promoted in 2008 until now, I found that it was not only disappointing, it sadden me to think the process has been exploited and drug into the political arena. All one has to do is look at the spikes in revision history stats for the page.
5. GA1 failed on 9/17/2008 - read the discussion and what was involved, if you haven't already - it was supposed to fail. Two days later, GA2 unsurprisingly passes...a few months prior to the 2008 election. Look at the article that passed. The Biden article today is not even close to being the same article that was dubiously promoted to GA in 2008, 2 days after it failed.
6. During the time between elections, the article has not undergone a single peer review but it has changed dramatically and has expanded beyond what WP:Article length suggests.
7. I did not rush to remove GA status because I wanted input from other editors to see how they felt. I am quite confident that I made the right decision when I initiated this GAR.

I am going to demote this article for the reasons I mentioned above. Once all the issues have been resolved, it is possible that the article can be improved enough to meet GA criteria once it is stable, but I highly recommend a peer review first. ^Atsme _Talk 📧 18:50, 21 April 2020 (UTC)

I am not particularly familiar with the GA process so I will defer to others' judgement. However, I would like to respond to some of your points.

• 1, 4, 5) Could you please explain what you mean by "dubious circumstances" and/or why you disagree with GA2? I read GA1 and GA2 and nothing seemed dubious to me.
• 2, 6, 7) Coffeeandcrumbs and MelbourneStar both seem to have asked for specific issues with the article. The only issues you cited are stability, that the article's neutrality has been questioned, and length.

• With respect to the issue of stability, the recent "edit warring" was the result of an ongoing RFC. It can be expected to subside now that the Tara Reade RFC has concluded and the content has largely been moved to Joe Biden sexual assault allegation. (For this particular RFC, the unique circumstance of the gap in time between arguably-RS sources and definitely-RS sources reporting Reade's allegations contributed to the edit warring.)
• With respect to the issue of neutrality, you have only brought up that the neutrality has been questioned. Every article about a controversial/political public figure will have its neutrality "questioned" by someone. I can't tell if you are stating that the article is not neutral or just that others have stated so; if it is the former, please provide example(s).
• With respect to the issue of length, as you said yourself WP:Article length is a suggestion. WP:GAR states that compliance with the Manual of Style […is] not covered by the GA criteria and therefore not grounds for delisting.

I'd appreciate it if you could provide specific instances of where this article fails the GA criteria. I also note that WP:GAR says that the individual reassessment should be used if You don't see any ongoing content dispute or edit war, which was not the case. I believe a community reassessment is more appropriate. userdude 19:35, 21 April 2020 (UTC)

• See WP:GAFAIL: Immediate fail: It is not stable due to edit warring on the page;
• It also fails the following 2 of the 6 GA criteria:

4. Neutral: it represents viewpoints fairly and without editorial bias, giving due weight to each.

5. Stable: it does not change significantly from day to day because of an ongoing edit war or content dispute.

And as I explained in detail above, it has a level of PP which is further proof of its instability. It is not the same article that was reviewed 12 years ago. Instability is a symptom of NPOV issues. Without the PP and DS, what do you think would happen? Suggestion - if you are so confident about the article's stability, then submit a request to have the PP and DS restrictions removed, and renominate it for GA. It's that simple. ^Atsme _Talk 📧 20:52, 21 April 2020 (UTC)

Instead of asserting that you are correct, please provide specific instance(s) of where this article is not neutral. I am unaware of any rule that GAs may not be protected. User:Aircorn said The stability criteria is more a practical criteria for reviewers, thus WP:GAFAIL#4 should not be applied to GARs. As I said, the edit warring was due to an unusual circumstance that has since been resolved by an RFC. I would find it wholly inappropriate if this GAR were to be closed now as delist — it should not be an individual reassessment for the reason stated above. userdude 21:21, 21 April 2020 (UTC); edited 21:23, 21 April 2020 (UTC)

Instability is a reason not to pass an article (again mainly for practical reasons), but not in itself a reason to delist. Otherwise any current good article that undergoes an edit war or disagreement (which are a lot) would suddenly need to be delisted. Even worse it opens the door to editors deliberately making an article unstable so they can delist it. Normal editing practices (which in this case appears to be a content dispute that turned into an edit war and now is being resolved by RFC) are not grounds to delist. In fact the Good Article process gives precedent to community consensus. So if there is community consensus established through a RFC, no matter how egregious that may appear to some, then it has to be accepted as good enough to meet the Good Article criteria. Nothing presented here has really explained how it fails the criteria. It is all very well to say it is not neutral, but examples need to be given. Protection in itself is not proof of anything apart from that the article is attracting disruptive editing. I tend to agree that this should have gone through the community process, although that can be a bit hit and miss at the moment. If someone want to challenge Atsmes close the could take it there themselves after the close. AIRcorn (talk) 23:30, 21 April 2020 (UTC)

Atsme, I am the editor that brought it to GA way back when and I was the editor who kept it there for the next seven years, until I stepped away from these kinds of high-profile active political articles. I do not believe the promotion to GA was dubious and I believe it warranted its GA status for the whole time I was minding it. (I have 160 combined FA/GA/DYK credits and so I think I know something about reviewed content.) As for stability and edit-warring and NPOV claims and page protection, that comes with the territory with these kinds of articles and it has never prevented articles of this kind achieved reviewed status. Indeed, Barack Obama was FA through both his presidential elections and presidency, John McCain was FA throughout his presidential election in 2008, and the same was true for Mitt Romney in 2012 and Hillary Rodham Clinton in 2016 (I was involved in several of these). I can assure you there were always people, from both sides, complaining about the neutrality of each of these articles. That's almost the definition of neutrality – big fans will think it's too hard on the subject and big opponents will think it's too soft on the subject. I can't really speak to the current state of the article, but in my view the grounds you have for taking the GA away are not sufficient. Better would be to point out concrete, specific things wrong with it and see if those can be remedied. In my time doing these kinds of articles that was always a big frustration – people would complain in generalities but rarely list out specific, actionable points. Wasted Time R (talk) 22:40, 21 April 2020 (UTC)

• Delist - Per WP:GAFAIL points 3 & 4. The article still has maintenance tags Joe Biden#First term (2009–2013) and is far from stable with big changes and some edit warring. PackMecEng (talk) 22:59, 21 April 2020 (UTC)

Decision

• The arguments to keep do not align with GA's core set of editorial standards. At the bare minimum, a good article should be neutral, stable, free of maintenance tags, and should not omit any major facets of the topic. An article is an immediate fail when there's edit warring but this one goes much further and has resulted in full or semi-PP, and DS restrictions of 1 revert per 24 hrs. A GA is exactly what its name implies - a good article, but when there is edit warring, disruption, NPOV issues and instability the article is clearly not good. Also, a GA should not be so long that it is unwieldy and difficult to read. This article is currently at 88 kB (14495 words) vs the 2008 GA article that was promoted at 31 kB (5122 words), so no, it is not the same article that was promoted over a decade ago. The delist arguments were the strongest and most convincing in support of delisting. ^Atsme _Talk 📧 01:48, 22 April 2020 (UTC)

• Atsme, I find your decision troubling. Neither you nor any of the delist !votes provided any specific examples where the article is not neutral, despite I and numerous other users asking for examples. You repeatedly said the article has grown significantly since GA2, but you have not provided any examples of new content that fails GA criteria. You cited the edit war over Tara Reade's allegations as an example of instability, but this issue has been resolved by an RFC and was caused by an unusual circumstance, as mentioned above. WP:GAR says that GAR should be used if you don't see any ongoing content dispute or edit war. You used the fact that this article is protected as evidence of instability, but per that argument no major controversial/political topic could have GA status. The only specific examples of this article failing GA criteria you cited are length and a single maintenance tag from April 2020.

You say the keep arguments do not align with GA's core set of editorial standards, but you have ignored the content of the arguments. Numerous users have asked for specific examples of neutrality failure, but none have been provided. The arguments that the article fails neutrality have not been arguments — they've been assertions. You've asserted that GA2 was dubious, but have not stated why. I and Wasted Time R challenged this assertion, but you did not respond. You used the recent edit war as evidence of failing the stability criterion, but you have not responded to my statement that the edit war was caused by an unusual circumstance and has since been resolved by RFC. You used the page's protection status as evidence of instability despite the fact that the page for a major party's presidential nominee would be protected under any circumstance, regardless of the article's quality.

I didn't come into this expecting to defend the article. Having never participated in a GAR, I was planning on just watching. But when I saw that you were planning on delisting the article after several users asked for specific examples of the article failing GA criteria and none were provided, something seemed wrong. I'm not sure even sure if this article does meet GA criteria, but you have avoided making substantive arguments for delisting and ignored arguments against delisting. I am unfamiliar with the steps of dispute resolution, but I would like for a neutral user to determine the consensus of this GAR. userdude 04:57, 22 April 2020 (UTC)

@UserDude: Atsme didn't even bother responding to my comment which had asked for further elaboration on why she intends to delist the article. Considering no elaboration was provided, it would stand to reason that the article's issues aren't "extensive" after all; yet, if that were the case, Atsme blatantly ignored the three steps to take prior to initiating GAR (particularly: #1: fix simple problems yourself, #2: tag serious problems you can't fix, #3: Remember, the aim is not to delist the article, but to fix it). So I'm not entirely shocked that Atsme came to this decision to delist... a week after she nominated the article for a GAR to delist. —MelbourneStar☆^talk 05:41, 22 April 2020 (UTC)

I agree this does not align with the principles of conducting a reassessment. The aim is to fix problems and for that to happen the problems need to be outlined. It feels very much like this has been nominated with the intention of delisting it without giving it a chance to be kept. The pile on !votes from editors not familiar with the reassessment process do not help the cause. If it is delisted with the current commentary here I would recommend it is taken to community GAR. It should probably have been raised there in the first place. I will do so myself if nobody else does. AIRcorn (talk) 06:30, 22 April 2020 (UTC)

Seems fairly straightforward to me. She has explained the issues several times that I can see and there is a clear majority supporting it. PackMecEng (talk) 14:34, 22 April 2020 (UTC)

Anyone can vaguely explain issues, that's not quite difficult. Difficult is providing examples of those issues within the article, when those issues don't actually exist. If this page were still fully PP, if edit warring was still occurring, and if there were a litany of actual examples of NPOV breaches – I'd be singing a different tune. That's evidently not the case on 15 April when this GAR was opened, or now. —MelbourneStar☆^talk 15:21, 22 April 2020 (UTC)

With reverts happening daily and content changing drastically I find it hard to say the article is stable in any sense of the word. Also as I mentioned there is still an active maintenance tag in the article that pretty much requires a re-write of the section to correct. PackMecEng (talk) 15:29, 22 April 2020 (UTC)

A maintenance tag that was placed after the GAR, and per GAR's "before initiating a reassessment" (underline mine) statement: (#2) Tag serious problems that you cannot fix with appropriate template messages, if the templates will help other editors find the problems. Do not tag bomb the article. So if it were tagged prior to the GAR, and nothing was done to fix it -- you'd have a point. Now that it's been delisted? not so much of a point. Secondly, there are a few reverts here and there, which does not constitute to edit warring. Yes, changes occur to this article... you'll find that actually happens a lot on Wikipedia (GA, Featured articles too). But that hardly makes it unstable. —MelbourneStar☆^talk 15:40, 22 April 2020 (UTC)

We do not look at the article in a bubble of when the discussion started, if that were the case there was serious edit warring at the time. You cannot have it both ways. Also yes big changes, constant reverts, RFCs, and lots of talk discussion indicate unstable articles. Thats how it works. That is what unstable means. PackMecEng (talk) 15:45, 22 April 2020 (UTC)

No that's actually wrong. The edit warring ceased with the commencement of the PP; the latter, it too, ceased with the ending of the contentious (and understandably so) RfC dealing with significant BLP matters. And then this discussion started. Lot's of talk and discussion, RfCs on serious matters -- whilst that to you makes an "unstable article", to me it actually looks like a proper functioning encyclopedia. —MelbourneStar☆^talk 15:51, 22 April 2020 (UTC)

Sure I agree, proper functioning encyclopedia. That is not the same as a stable article. Also yes the RFC closed, now the contentious matter of what to say exactly and how. I guess me and the majority of people that agree it is not stable are all wrong? PackMecEng (talk) 15:54, 22 April 2020 (UTC)

We can play a game of semantics till the cows come home, I think it's implied that I believe this article has been stable, and was certainly stable at the time of the GAR. Yes, RfC has closed and people can continue to work collaboratively on here. And yes, I respectfully do believe on the matter of stability, you are all wrong. Just as I'd imagine you would believe I'm wrong. The difference is, it's the onus of the GAR nominator to outline how it's unstable. GAR nominator, you, and the others can't really explain that considering at the time of writing the GAR, the brief spell of edit warring has long ceased. I feel like I've repeated myself, whether you've listened is up to you... and so that's my cue to leave things. —MelbourneStar☆^talk 16:06, 22 April 2020 (UTC)

• As promised I opened a community reassessment. If you believe it doesn't meet the criteria please leave actionable comments there. AIRcorn (talk) 23:27, 22 April 2020 (UTC)

Could someone uninvolved close this thread, and point folks to the new GAR in said closing? CaptainEek ^{Edits Ho Cap'n!}⚓ 00:24, 23 April 2020 (UTC)

Post-close comments

• Atsme This is an individual reassessment, and you're technically able to close it however you want, at any point that you want. However, if you're closing it as "delist", you need to list actionable issues that anyone interested in rescuing can address. "Article is not neutral" is not an actionable issue. If you have NPOV concerns, you've to point to specific instances where the article does not accurately represent available source material. I haven't read all the source material, to be clear, so I have no opinion on whether or not it does; but having worked on both promoting and reviewing a lot of political articles, this is the only way to do it. Asserting a lack of neutrality without reference to the source material, and delisting it on that basis, will just mean someone will renominate it, and request another reviewer; and they'd be within their rights to do so. Vanamonde (Talk) 17:02, 30 April 2020 (UTC)

Thank you for your input, Vanamonde93, it is very much appreciated. There are no clear procedures - one seems to contradict the other - and having been involved in a GAR myself several years ago which actually helped make me more aware of things to be cautious about and that has helped me immensely in my work at NPP, AfC, and as a GA/FA reviewer-promoter. The way GAR is written now tends to be quite confusing, especially since I was adhering closely (or thought I was) to the reassessment process which clearly states: The outcome of a reassessment should only depend on whether the article being reassessed meets the good article criteria or not. I will clearly list my reasons for closing this delist below, and again, thank you. ^Atsme _Talk 📧 17:42, 30 April 2020 (UTC)

@Atsme: I'd talking less about the written procedures, which are somewhat general, and more about behavioral best practices and broader policy concerns. Anyone can say an article isn't neutral. That isn't sufficient to delist an article, because if it was, we'd have no politcs GAs at all. Concerns with neutrality have to be based on the source material, and have to be actionable; these aren't things that are necessarily codified, but these are things administrators would consider if this blew up into a dispute needing administrator attention, for instance. So it's less about following the letter of the process, which you are doing, and more about minimizing drama from the outset. Vanamonde (Talk) 18:08, 30 April 2020 (UTC)

@Atsme: This is an exact copy of the instructions at WP:GAR, How to use this process instruction #8:

• Individual reassessment

  To close the discussion, edit the individual reassessment page of the article. State the outcome of the discussion (whether there was consensus and what action was taken) and explain how the consensus and action was determined from the comments.

• Community reassessment

  To close the discussion, edit the community reassessment page of the article and locate {{GAR/current}}. Replace it with {{subst:GAR/result|result=outcome}} ~~~~. Replace outcome with the outcome of the discussion (whether there was consensus and what action was taken) and explain how the consensus and action was determined from the comments. A bot will remove the assessment from the GA reassessment page and will add it to the current archive.

It doesn't appear that you need to use any fancy templates for an individual close; it's a pretty low-key thing to do. wbm1058 (talk) 18:34, 30 April 2020 (UTC)

But I should point out that the Template:GAR/current documentation does say it can be used for closing individual reassessments. – wbm1058 (talk) 18:42, 30 April 2020 (UTC)

Oh, wait. It says that in the documentation for Template:GAR/AH. The documentation for those two templates is combined on the same page. wbm1058 (talk) 18:54, 30 April 2020 (UTC)

{{GAR/result}} is only to be used for closing community good article reassessments, per the documentation. Sorry about that. wbm1058 (talk) 18:57, 30 April 2020 (UTC)

Close GAR

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

My conclusion after carefully evaluating all of the arguments and discussion is that consensus weighed heavily to delist. The article has been delisted for the reasons I stated below:

The sentence before last in the first paragraph of WP:GAR, clearly states: The outcome of a reassessment should only depend on whether the article being reassessed meets the good article criteria or not. When we examine GA criteria, we can see that it clearly fails the criteria. Following are 4 reasons to immediately fail a GA:

1. It is a long way from meeting any one of the six good article criteria
2. It contains copyright violations
3. It has, or needs, cleanup banners that are unquestionably still valid. These include {{cleanup}}, {{POV}}, {{unreferenced}} or large numbers of {{citation needed}}, {{clarify}}, or similar tags (See also {{QF}})
4. It is not stable due to edit warring on the page

Joe Biden fails 2 of the 4 immediate fail criteria:

• Fails #3 - the article contains maintenance tags and clearly needs more. The article is unwieldy in length, difficult to read, contains trivia, and is overly promotional. MOS:LEAD states that the article should be well-written, and summarize the most important points, including any prominent controversies. The lead fails to include any prominent controversies, and there are several, including allegations of inappropriate touching and sexual assault; however, as evidenced on the article's TP there are ongoing content disputes. The article also fails neutrality in that it does not represent viewpoints fairly and without editorial bias, giving due weight to each. Another example, UNDUE: the article personalizes Biden by focusing on his personal tragedies and emotions, as though it were an effort to garner sympathy from the reader rather than focusing on his notability. Great stuff for a book or movie, but not for an encyclopedia. There is far too much detail throughout the article, which helps to explain why it is unwieldy.
• Fails #4 - the article is not stable, it is under PP, DS with a 1RR restriction, and at one point required full PP. A brief lull in edit warring typically occurs when an RfC is in the process attempting to resolve a dispute. When a dispute has reached a consensus, another dispute arises as to how the consensus material shall be worded in the article. The article changes significantly from day to day as the edit history demonstrates, including ongoing edit wars and content disputes. It is clearly not a stable article, and without the protection afforded, the article would be a battleground. See this discussion, this RfC, and this discussion and the Proposal that follows the RfC. ^Atsme _Talk 📧 01:16, 1 May 2020 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Reply: The "immediate fail" criteria (these 4 criteria) are different from the "GA criteria"(these 6 criteria). The GAR quote (as I read it) refers to the latter set. Otherwise, any good article could be immediately delisted if it had a single maintenance tag (such articles can be seen here) — or, for that matter, if a single user was unhappy with the result of an RFC and took it upon themselves to make an individual review wherein they vaguely assert NPOV violations and edit warring, ignore requests for examples, and unilaterally decide that consensus is heavily in their favor. The immediate fail criteria exist to determine if an article is even worth a reviewer spending time on it; this article is already beyond that point.

In addition to that, your claim that this article has maintenance tags is (as of 01:45, 1 May 2020 (UTC)) untrue. MrX and I fixed the issues tagged during the course of GA3. That is the point of GAR. userdude 01:45, 1 May 2020 (UTC)

@UserDude: The 4 "immediate fail" criteria are not essentially different from the 6 "GA criteria":

• "immediate fail" #4: It is not stable due to edit warring on the page is essentally the same as 5. Stable: it does not change significantly from day to day because of an ongoing edit war or content dispute
• "immediate fail" #3: It has, or needs, cleanup banners that are unquestionably still valid essentially is covered by 1. Well written and 2. Verifiable with no original research

In other words, any article that passes the "GAR six" will also pass the "immediate fail" 4. – wbm1058 (talk) 04:58, 1 May 2020 (UTC)

That is mostly true (some cleanup banners are not covered by the criteria). This is all moot now as the only one that can overturn it is Atsme and I see little chance of that happening. AIRcorn (talk) 05:38, 1 May 2020 (UTC)

@Wbm1058: My apologies, I was unclear in my previous comment. As I read it, the point of the "immediate fail 4" is essentially to shut down the GAn discussion before it starts because there is no chance of the article passing the "GA 6". It seems to me that Atsme is using the "immediate fail 4" to close the discussion in their favor, which is contrary to the purpose of GAR—to improve the article. In the course of a GAR, issues are supposed to be specified and/or tagged so the article can be improved. If a tagged issue resulted in an immediate fail, the process would be pointless. userdude 05:42, 1 May 2020 (UTC)

I have disagreed with Atsmes interpretation of the reassessment process here and since the delisting have opened it for reevaluation by the community at Wikipedia:Good article reassessment/Joe Biden/1 AIRcorn (talk) 01:41, 1 May 2020 (UTC)

Community reassessment

Joe Biden

Article (edit | visual edit | history) · Article talk (edit | history) · Watch • Watch article reassessment page • Most recent review

Result: delisted per § Reassessment – wbm1058 (talk) 20:53, 28 June 2020 (UTC)

One of my main focuses here is the reassessment process, and I am the main contributor in this area. My attention was drawn to this article following a post on the Good Article Reassessment talk page. I am not happy with how that individual reassessment process was conducted and feel that it needs to be reexamined through a community one. My main concerns are.

• That it should have gone through the community reassessment process in the first place. Articles where the decision of the nominator is likely to be controversial should be brought to the community for discussion. This is particular true for controversial or partisan topics with a sudden surge of interest.
• Stability was brought up as one of the main reasons for delisting. My feelings on this criteria are that it is important for reviewing an article nominated for Good Article status as it gives the reviewer a stable version to review. When delisting however the opposite applies. A lot of Good Articles undergo bouts of edit warring and other forms of content dispute. That doesn't mean they suddenly are no longer good articles. Generally we wait for the dispute to end and then assess the article. In fact one little pet peeve of mine here is when the Good Article process is used as a tool during a content dispute. Even if we take the stability criteria as read, at the time of reassessment the article was fully protected. You can not get more stable than that on Wikipedia.
• There was not an adequate explanation of how the article fails the criteria. Neutrality was brought up, but it was never explained how the article failed the neutrality requirement. This was despite various other editors asking. The purpose of a reassessment is to give interested editors the chance to fix problems with the article. To do that they need to know what the problems are.

I don't know, or really care, if this article is kept or delisted. What I do care about is that it is given a chance. I do not feel that was the case in the recently conducted reassessment. I know there was a lot of delist !votes there, but this is not decided by a show of hands. What is needed is a break down of the failings which allows any interested editors the chance to resolve them. Also since this is likely to attract editors not that familiar with Good Articles it probably bears mentioning that the requirements are not as strict as many think (see Wikipedia:What the Good article criteria are not). AIRcorn (talk) 23:22, 22 April 2020 (UTC)

Pinging commentators at Talk:Joe Biden/GA3 @Mz7, CaptainEek, Coffeeandcrumbs, MelbourneStar, MONGO, ConstantPlancks, Vfrickey, Vanamonde93, UserDude, and PackMecEng: Sorry if I missed anyone. AIRcorn (talk) 23:35, 22 April 2020 (UTC)

• I do not disagree with the claim that the initiator of the GA reassessment should have used the community process as opposed to the individual one, given the contentiousness of the article and the probability of a controversial outcome. With that being said, the article does fail the stability criterion of the good article criteria. This criterion states that the article should not change significantly from day to day because of an ongoing edit war or content dispute.
  Joe Biden is an active politician and a presumptive nominee for perhaps the most contentious political contest in the United States—as more information about his candidacy becomes known, so too must the article change, and since more information is coming out day-by-day, so too is his article changing day-by-day, with more than 50 edits in the last week alone. New content disputes are being contended every day on the article's talk page, many of which involve neutrality and quality of sources, which are also central aspects of a good article. I would reject the argument that because the article was fully protected at the time of reassessment, the article "technically" met the stability criterion—the article so poorly failed to meet the stability criterion that an administrator had to forcibly cause it to do so.
  I agree that if the content dispute was just a one-off thing that resolved itself in a month or so, there is no need to start a good article reassessment, and I sympathize with the complaint about good article reassessments being used as tools during content disputes. However, when the content of an article is subject to dispute after dispute, lasting several months, I think that should raise doubt as to whether the article is truly stable. We do not necessarily need to wait until the article is stable before reassessing whether it is in fact stable. Respectfully, Mz7 (talk) 00:02, 23 April 2020 (UTC)

I should note here that I am open to persuasion. Perhaps I am being a little jaded after trudging through all the recent contentiousness on the talk page when I closed the RfC. I figure the content of this article is changing on a day-to-day basis, and probably will until after the election is over. With that being said, if it is just a one-off dispute (i.e. the Tara Reade allegations) and there isn't anything else pending, then perhaps I am wrong. Mz7 (talk) 00:19, 23 April 2020 (UTC)

Historical perspective: Barack Obama was FA through both his 2008 and 2012 presidential elections and throughout his presidency; John McCain was GA and then FA throughout his presidential campaign in 2008; Mitt Romney was GA and then FA throughout his presidential campaign in 2012; and Hillary Rodham Clinton was GA throughout her presidential campaign in 2008 and then FA throughout her presidential campaign in 2016. The same kinds of things that you have seen, and will see, with the Biden article this year – edit-warring, RfCs, claims of NPOV violations, momentary lacks of stability – are the same kinds of things that all these articles saw back then. But it did not prevent those articles from gaining and keeping their reviewed status, nor should it automatically cause this article to lose its reviewed status. This GAR should be about specific, detailed, concrete issues identified with this article – this fact here is wrong; that source there is weak; the prose in such-and-such section has inappropriate tone; this important topic has insufficient coverage; that not-so-important topic has too much coverage; etc. – and whether they can be remedied. Wasted Time R (talk) 02:36, 23 April 2020 (UTC)

The article either meets GA or it does not. Just because other articles did not get a reassessment has no bearing on this one. Right now because of the drastic changes, the RFCs and heavy discussions on controversial subjects, and rapid large changes to the article it fails stability. Full stop. Perhaps down the road it can be re-run though GA and might even pass. But as it stands there are stability issues and maintenance tags that require a lot of work to address. PackMecEng (talk) 03:34, 23 April 2020 (UTC)

• Arguments that claim noncompliance with WP:Article length, WP:NPOV, presence of maintenance tags, edit warring, and instability resulting in full PP and DS with 1RR restrictions should not be the criteria for delisting a GA is inadvertently making those failures the criteria for maintaining an article riddled with problems as a GA, and that makes a mockery of the entire GAR process. I see it as a slap in the face ^(hyperbole) to those editors who have worked hard over the years to promote, review and/or maintain GA articles to assure our readers the article actually does meet the criteria for GA. I hope the community will agree as others already have in the original GAR or we risk losing the dignity and significance of having on any article. ^Atsme _Talk 📧 11:05, 23 April 2020 (UTC) ^{Adding that the accusation by the OP is fallacious in regards to my motives for delisting as being partisan or anything but good faith, or that I, in any way, attempted to politicize the GAR process. The same could be said of the effort by those who are trying to pretentiously maintain its GA status, and a much stronger argument when the article clearly fails to meet GA criteria, so please, let's not politicize GAR - I would/have felt the same for any article in any topic area and my actions had nothing to do with partisanship, as my non-partisan view is further evidenced here. 11:32, 23 April 2020 (UTC)}
• Oppose delist. Completely concur with AIRcorn's assessment of why we're here again, and thank them for opening this discussion. I'd like to point out: at the time of this GAR, just like the previous GAR a week ago: no edit warring, no article protection, no article disputes (some will class an RfC as a dispute; 1. collaborative encyclopedia, 2. BLP matters ← good to get community input on both of those). Likewise, at the time of this GAR's opening no specific neutrality concerns have been raised — oddly enough, just like the GAR preceding this one. As such, I don't believe the article should be delisted. I am happy to be convinced otherwise, as long as editors can provide specific examples. Also, for the previous nominator to speak of a "slap to the face" and making a mockery of the GAR process... I would urge them to keep a look out for a WP:BOOMERANG. The only reason we are here is because they did not adequately explain the reasons as to why the article should be delisted in the first place — despite others specifically asking them to, might I add. —MelbourneStar☆^talk 15:04, 23 April 2020 (UTC)

• 29 April: editors endorsing a delist of this article have failed to provide examples of any of the issues they've discussed. Neutrality? no firm examples whatsoever. Edit warring? none post the PP. PP? temporary, to assist an RfC on a BLP matter. DS/1RR restrictions? WP:ARBAPDS, look at FA Hillary Clinton. It's rather disingenuous for editors to suggest a problem, yet fail to pin–point where exactly that problem is, leaving it unfixable. —MelbourneStar☆^talk 04:53, 29 April 2020 (UTC)

• I'm not a GAR regular and I've been adminning in the topic area, so I'm not going to take a position on delisting. But I do want to share some perspective into what I suspect might be going on.
  I believe Talk:Joe_Biden#RfC:_Should_this_article_include_Tara_Reade's_criminal_complaint_against_Joe_Biden? and the coincident page protection were deeply frustrating to many users. We've seen that frustration play out in several forums already. The issue was complicated because at the time the RfC started, many mainstream news outlets had not yet picked up the story, making it a questionable BLP issue. I suspect that many of the people trying to include the allegation in the article felt that their views were being actively censored by other editors and the admins who protected the article. (I believe this was true of Atsme too, who was liberally using big words like "stonewalling", "whitewashing" and "censorship" in the related talk page discussions.) I don't want to invalidate the frustration people probably feel, but I do wonder if strong feelings related to the Tara Reade thing might be coloring people's view of the rest of the article. Afterall, if there's this big group of editors and admins stonewalling coverage of the Reade allegation then certainly the rest of the article must suffer from that bias.
  In any case, I think it would be unfortunate if the GA process became politicized. GA shouldn't be a bone that partisans can fight over, but something that encourages and facilitates article improvement. For that reason I would encourage User:Atsme to follow the instructions at the top of Wikipedia:Good article reassessment by pointing out specific actionable problems and tagging the relevant sections, paragraphs, or sentences where appropriate, instead of simply demoting the article to a "C" and moving on. And I would encourage others who might weigh in here to take the time to read the article top-to-bottom and jot down a list of problems that need fixing. Whether the article gets a or not is unimportant. What matters is that the process results in actual article improvement. ~Awilley (talk) 22:02, 23 April 2020 (UTC)

• @Awilley: Perhaps you should read all the issues people have raised here and at the previous discussion. They have been laid out several times by several people in several ways. Please stop trying to color this as a partisan issue when nothing supports that misguided view. Also stop personalizing comments about editors, it is less than helpful. PackMecEng (talk) 22:19, 23 April 2020 (UTC)

• Only here as I was pinged. I respect that many GAC reviews are diligent and attempt to provide a good review, but question why one person can elevate such an article pretty much unilaterally but one person cannot delist it when "keep" arguments are weak (how an article can expand 4 fold and be expected to meet the earlier review a decade ago is beyond me) I am however well versed in Peer review and the FAC process with more than a dozen articles in which I was the primary editor and another 30 in which I was secondary that I do not even list on my userpage. This article FAILS GA due to the lack of stability. I think Atsme has adequately explained this previously at the GAR and since she is someone like others with background in GAC, FAC, etc. its not like they are some clueless noob about it. Comments about how the Barack Obama, Hillary Clinton (I was a participant in that FAC) "survived" being successfully challenged for their ranking while they were in the limelight are fair, but that could also mean that we had less diligence then than we do now. I find @Awilley:'s assumptions of bad faith regarding Atsme's efforts to also be troubling. Awilley seems to be saying that Atsme did not get her way so she decided to extract revenge...that is a pretty powerful accusation. Here is my recommendation: Allow the GAR to stand as "delisted" and in a month or two after gathering comments, place it again at GAC and see if anyone wishes to reexamine it and promote it back. GAR is not the same thing as FARC, where an article is reexamined by numerous folks and time is allowed for appropriate changes to perhaps keep it listed as FA. The instability, edit warring, good faith claims that the article lacks neutrality of this GA is more than enough reason since it was a GA, to demote it. Everyone should carefully read once again the criteria of a Good Article here.--MONGO (talk) 23:37, 23 April 2020 (UTC)

Historical perspective II. Here is an example of a GAR being done for an article about a candidate in a presidential race, in this case Martin O'Malley during the early stages of the 2016 presidential campaign – Talk:Martin O'Malley/GA2. (It's one I remember because I'm the one who did it.) The GAR does not rely on general claims of edit-warring or instability or NPOV or article growth over time. Instead it lists a number of very specific faults, omissions, and other issues with the article. When there were no responses after a couple of weeks, the GA was removed. Had somebody done work to remedy the listed problems, the GA could have been retained. This is the approach that makes sense to me. Wasted Time R (talk) 12:35, 24 April 2020 (UTC)

Further clarity for the reasons given to delist per GAR procedure: Also see Talk:Joe Biden/GA3 for the initial delist discussion.

1. The article is unstable - immediate fail. The article is currently under PP, DS with a 1RR restriction which is a clear indication that it is a locus of chaos now, has been for a while, and will continue to be for some time to come. When instability is caused by vandalism, we do not demote GA/FA promoted articles but the same does not apply to the instability this article suffers as the result of conflicting views and challenged material. The topic area has -0- influence because the same behavior occurs in other topic areas, and at times where it is least expected...such as a dog or fish article.

   • Response: "The article is currently under PP, DS with a 1RR restriction" — the article falls under the scope of WP:ARBAPDS. That includes FA article Hillary Clinton — which has the same restrictions. —MelbourneStar☆^talk 03:35, 25 April 2020 (UTC)

2. This article is plagued by edit warring - immediate fail. The argument that edit warring is expected in controversial articles and should not affect current GA status is an invalid argument to not delist as is the argument that there hasn't been any edit warring in a while, and the reason follows: this article has PP, DS, and 1RR restrictions that are not conducive to WP's open platform which is lauded for it's design that encourages article improvement and neutrality.

   • Response: Please provide recent examples of this article being "plagued by edit warring". I would be curious to see if they are in relation to the BLP matters which resulted in full-PP. —MelbourneStar☆^talk 03:35, 25 April 2020 (UTC)

3. The article has neutrality issues - immediate fail. See Talk:Joe Biden/GAR3 - neutrality speaks to POV conflicts that raise questions about content and compliance with WP's core content policies. Until a consensus is reached that resolves the neutrality issues, the article unequivocally fails GA criteria and should be delisted.

   • Response: Please provide examples. —MelbourneStar☆^talk 03:35, 25 April 2020 (UTC)

   • It took some time for the cautious Obama and the blunt, rambling Biden to work out ways of dealing with each other.[204] This is placed right after a maintenance tag. Username⁶⁸⁹² 03:37, 25 April 2020 (UTC)

   • Hardly POV, if anything awkwardly written like a story as the maintenance tag describes. Would need to be rewritten, though. Can you please provide a list of NPOV examples? because if there are blatant NPOV breaches, we all need to be made aware of them so they can be fixed. I would further be happy to delist if there's plenty of NPOV issues -- as implied within both this and the previous GAR. —MelbourneStar☆^talk 03:45, 25 April 2020 (UTC)

4. The article is not well-written per GA Criteria 1, as it contains too much detail, trivia, and promotion; e.g., things like his early life college football, and/or noncompliance with MOS:LEAD which states: The lead should stand on its own as a concise overview of the article's topic. It should identify the topic, establish context, explain why the topic is notable, and summarize the most important points, including any prominent controversies. Also, the article is currently 88 kB (14495 words) vs the 2008 article that was promoted to GA with 31 kB (5122 words). In its current state, the article is unwieldy and should be split per WP:Article length.

   • Would splitting his Senate career and/or his vice-presidency into seperate articles be a good idea? Username⁶⁸⁹² 14:15, 24 April 2020 (UTC)

5. The article still has maintenance tags and needs more but maintenance tags tend to be removed when instability is an issue and 1RR prevents removed tags from being restored. PP and DS w/1RR are deterrents that have a chilling effect and results in disincentivizing editors from contributing.

   • Response: I don't see why you wouldn't be able to tag where necessary if it's needed. I certainly wouldn't remove a tag (I'd be curious to see who would, especially if it's needed). Further, in the context of a GAR: we need to know where things need to be fixed. —MelbourneStar☆^talk 03:35, 25 April 2020 (UTC)

• Hopefully the above list will provide the clarity needed. ^Atsme _Talk 📧 14:00, 24 April 2020 (UTC)

I would say that the above did provide clarity, though perhaps not in the way Atsme intended. Much as I dislike bolding in this manner—it's effectively shouting—I think it's important to point out a basic fact of GAR that is being overlooked: there is no such thing as an immediate fail at GAR. There just isn't. At GAN, there is (the WP:GAFAIL, cited by many people, though in context it's clear the "immediate" part only applies to new GA nominations when article issues are so severe that there is no point in embarking on a full review), but as is evident throughout the description of how GAR works at WP:GAR, the goal of a GAR is to attempt to deal with the article's shortcomings in terms of the GA criteria: Remember, the aim is not to delist the article, but to fix it.

GAR is a deliberative process, and reading the individual GAR (Talk:Joe Biden/GA3), it's clear that the guidelines were not followed. There was no attempt to note any issues with the GA criteria aside from instability, and requests that this be done were ignored. The end result seems to have been decided from the moment it was opened: there had been edit warring, therefore GA status had to be removed, regardless of what anyone said. Never mind that the edit warring had subsided, according to more than one editor. It is a weakness of the individual GAR—as indeed with individual GAN reviews—that the opening editor has the final say, because sometimes the reassessor or reviewer gets it wrong, and that's why the community GAR is available, so that the community at large can have its say.

Going over the five points above:

1. Is the article unstable today? Right now? Measures such as being under PP, DS with a 1RR restriction are imposed to bring stability to an article that has suffered edit warring and other problems. If they have succeeded in bringing a reasonable degree of stability to the article, then the GA criteria are met.
2. Similarly, if the editing restrictions have put the brakes on edit warring (or it has subsided on its own), then again the GA criteria are met.
3. I have yet to see a specific example of neutrality issues in any of these reassessments. For this to be raised, examples of passages and/or biased sections need to be specified. Of course, since GARs are meant to bring articles back to GA level if possible, those passages and biases can be fixed in the course of this review.
4. GA criteria 1 issues: if there are sections that are problematic, again, raise them here, and if they cannot be corrected, then the delisting can stand. But they must be raised and given an opportunity for correction. The invocation of WP:Article length here, however, is not relevant, as it is not a part of the GA criteria. It may be good advice for future article development; indeed, I notice there's a split discussion currently under way. (GA status, if any, stays with the parent article.) If there are concerns regarding criterion 3b (it stays focused on the topic without going into unnecessary detail (see summary style)), those should be enumerated so they can be addressed.
5. Maintenance tags on the article should be addressed in the course of a reassessment, and I hope someone will do so now that it's been highlighted. (I see one "citation needed" template, and the second half of the "First term" section's "story" template, which also has "clarification needed" and "according to whom" templates). Again, this is part of fixing the article, a clear goal of GAR.

• I have fixed the "citation needed", "clarification needed", and "according to whom" in-line tags. I used Ballotpedia references for the "citation needed" tag and reworded the content tagged with "clarification needed" and "according to whom" based on two NY Times articles. See Special:Diff/953102135; Special:Diff/953282948. userdude 00:17, 27 April 2020 (UTC), diffs added 00:23, 27 April 2020 (UTC)

My hope is that this community GAR can proceed per the guidelines at WP:GAR, particularly that the article be fully assessed against the GA criteria in terms of where it falls short today, and that those who are interested in doing so work at editing the article so that it no longer falls short of the criteria in those areas.

If the article does come to meet the criteria in a reasonable timeframe, then I trust that the consensus will reflect that fact and the article will qualify for listing. If it doesn't meet the criteria at that point, then consensus will reflect that. Either way, the reassessment can at that point be closed, and the result reflected on the article's talk page. BlueMoonset (talk) 15:43, 25 April 2020 (UTC)

• I disapprove of any attempts to cheat the system. We have proceeded per the guidelines; therefore, attempts to call an unstable article stable by ignoring challenged neutrality and multiple issues that require PP and 1RR restrictions to get it to that point make a mockery of the GA process and a travesty, indeed. Resolve the issues first, get the article stable without PP or DS, and renominate it. Imposing false stability on an unstable, challenged article is not how the GA process works. ^Atsme _Talk 📧 17:18, 25 April 2020 (UTC)

• I honestly don't know where to begin in responding to this, because phrases like cheat the system, make a mockery of the GA process, and even Imposing false stability on an unstable, challenged article is not how the GA process works don't reflect how the GAN and GAR processes do work. Even now, the challenged neutrality issues have not been identified with any specifics—flouting the very process supposedly being cheated. I just hope that when an independent closer appears for this page, they will look at the actions and arguments and actual GAR guidelines and GA criteria, and if the article meets the criteria on that date, close this GAR as relisted. BlueMoonset (talk) 19:23, 25 April 2020 (UTC)

• Thanks for the responses. I would just like to make some comments regarding a few points raised.
  • Mz7. If this was not already judged a good article and someone nominated it during a period of high activity I would mostly agree with you. It is bloody near impossible to review an article undergoing mass changes. In this case it would be prudent for the nominator to let the dust settle before proposing it for assessment. The same should really apply here. We should be judging the article under all the dust, not just looking at the current storm. A somewhat relevant discussion can be found at Wikipedia:Village pump (proposals)/Archive 153#RfC: Proposal: make subjects actively in the news ineligible for GANs and FACs. It was withdrawn, but the consensus was clearly opposing the proposal.
  • Awilley. I agree with you. The sole purpose of this process is to improve an article. If that is not possible or no one is willing to then we delist it. Whether the article is marked as being "Good" or not is not really important. It does serve some utility as providing a standard that other similar articles can use as a template, but beyond that it is really just peer review lite. Saying that, someone has devoted a lot of time get this article up to a certain standard and we owe them or any other interested editors the chance to resolve any concerns.
  • Mongo. One person can delist it, as Atsme has already done. The community process here serves as a safety net of sorts. If someone believes an article they nominated has been unfairly failed they can bring it here so it can be reassessed by the community. Same if someone believes an article was inappropriately passed or in this case delisted. You are wrong when you say that GAR is not the same thing as FARC, where an article is reexamined by numerous folks and time is allowed for appropriate changes to perhaps keep it listed as FA.. As it says at the top of the reassessment page Remember, the aim is not to delist the article, but to fix it..
  • Atsme. You are still just reiterating the criteria with out explaining how it fails them. If it is not neutral you need to show what parts are not neutral and use sources to show how they are not neutral. If a RFC has been closed giving consensus to certain content or wording then that is considered neutral as far as GAs are concerned. This is not an end run around community consensus. Right now what we have is the equivalent of the "I don't like it" !votes at a deletion discussion. Also listen to BlueMoonset. They know more about the Good Article process than probably anyone else.

We don't need to relitigate the process. All we need is for somoene who thinks this doesn't meet th criteria to provide clear examples of how it doesn't. AIRcorn (talk) 00:04, 26 April 2020 (UTC)

Oh come on. Just look at the talk page. Years ago when Biden was not running for President the article was stable enough that GA wasn't an issue. Now, there are edits all the time and they are not just gnome like edits. There are edits that involve many discussions on the talk page, many edits that have some edit wars, or RFC's, etc. The article itself is always evolving and what we have today is going to be considerable different than what may be there next week. The GA process is not for articles that are rapidly evolving. Sir Joseph ^(talk) 01:01, 26 April 2020 (UTC)

It already passed the GA process though. Sure I wouldn't recommend nominating an article that is undergoing rapid changes, but by the same token we don't delist articles because they suddenly become heavily edited. AIRcorn (talk) 08:47, 26 April 2020 (UTC)

The GA that passed 12 years ago is not the same article that was delisted - see the 5 reasons given for delisting. Just curious...Aircorn, what reasons do you believe would be valid reasons to delist a GA because it appears you are arguing in opposition to the reasons stated in GAR? A few have said that we should leave it a GA, fix the issues and improve the article but simple logic tells us articles that need fixing have problems which is the reason it was delisted in the first place, so the keep arguments contradict themselves. Fix the issues that caused the delisting, hopefully to the point the article has improved and will pass GA criteria. Until then, it is not a GA. The arguments to delist provided at GA3 were solid ones, and now similar arguments have been echoed here, some by new editors who support the delisting. ^Atsme _Talk 📧 11:47, 26 April 2020 (UTC)

BlueMoonset has already addressed your five points and I agree with what they say. The only part of the criteria I dispute as being relevant is the instability one, which has been convered quite extensively here. Every other one is fair game. I don't know how else to explain it, but we do not do immediate delists. We give editors a chance to fix the issues and to do that we need to explain how it fails. If you or other editors say it is not neutral and another editor says it is then there needs to be an explanaiton of how it is not neutral. This is not happening, just vague allusions to the talk page and protection levels. AIRcorn (talk) 23:57, 27 April 2020 (UTC)

• Comment This has reached the point of diminishing returns. There are two big problems with GAR. One is too little participation and the other is too much participation, particularly from editors who are unfamiliar with the process and not willing to listen to editors who are. This is definitely the later and it is problematic because it can drown out the more GA knowledgeable editors. I left a note at WT:GA when I opened this so hopefully some more of the regulars venture over when this settles down some and we can get some actual reassessment instead of our current retreading. This was opened because I was unhappy with how the individual delisting went. Therefore this should be considered a continuation of that reassessment, with the status quo being that it is a "Good Article". If no one presents any clear and actionable reasons on how this fails the criteria (the ongoing debate on instability notwithstanding) then it should be returned to the status quo. AIRcorn (talk) 01:08, 30 April 2020 (UTC)

@Aircorn: re: I left a note at WT:GA when I opened this – you opened this at 23:22, 22 April 2020; the last edit at Wikipedia talk:Good articles was on April 14 (a week earlier). The only note I'm finding is at Wikipedia talk:Good article nominations#Joe Biden: "make sure the comments align with the GA criteria. it also begs a deeper question on how the stability criteria applies to delisting articles that we should probably address a bit more formally at some point." It's hard for me to see how we can avoid addressing the issue now, as this strikes me as the crux of the matter. Do you mean that you want to make sure the comments align with the GA criteria, or the GA review criteria? At Wikipedia:Good article criteria#Criteria I see six good article criteria, including "it does not change significantly from day to day because of an ongoing edit war or content dispute", but Wikipedia:Good article reassessment says, paraphrasing, "don't use this process if you see any ongoing content dispute or edit war". Despite this advice not to use this process, this process has been used twice (both individual and community) for the Biden article where there have been recent content disputes. If the GA criteria, including the "immediate failure" criteria, does not apply to GA reviews, then what are the reassessment criteria? WP:GAR doesn't clearly say what the GAR criteria are, and how they differ from the GA criteria. – wbm1058 (talk) 14:29, 30 April 2020 (UTC)

Apologies, I meant the Wikipedia talk:Good article nominations#Joe Biden post. Both talk pages have similar functions (there was a propsoal to merge them at somepoint), but WT:GAN is much more frequented than WT:GA so is a better place to post if you are looking for more eyes. As far as I am concerned the stability issue is a bit of a red herring. The instructions here clearly say not to bring reassessments here during an edit war and that supercedes what other instructions on other pages say. This is backed up by Wikipedia talk:Good article reassessment/archive4#RfC: Reassessment of an "Unstable" Article on the talk page. Sure it is old, but the participants are well regarded good article contributors. Anyway old consensus still stands unitl a newer consensus is obtained, no matter how old it is. So in my opinion the instability of the article (which is disputed by some anyway) is not a reason to delist this article. It is up to those who think it should be to obtain a new consensus. Nuetrality concerns could be a reason to delist, along with referencing, prose and broadness.

As to why I brought it here, it was because I had no choice. An editor used an individual reassessment to delist this and I disagreed with how that was conducted. This is the only real way to make sure the correct decision is made as it attracts editors who are not just interested in the article, but the Good Article process as well. This will be closed by an independant editor who will either judge that the case for delisting is sound and uphold the previous delist, or that it wasn't and restore the Good Article status. I have no stake in this article so don't care whether it is a Good Article or not. What I care about is that correct process is followed and that this process is not used as a pawn to further ones own political agendas. To my mind no convincing reason has been given yet.

Moving beyond this reassessment I think some clarifiacation is needed to clear up any future misunderstandings or to change the consensus here to state that stability is a reason to delist. I close 90% of these reassessemnts and put no weight into instability arguements so if it is seen as being a good reason to delist then I would like to know that. I will start a clarification one if no one else does, but am not keen to do so while there is so much heat on this article. The last thing we need is editors with no interest in Good Articles in general making calls that could affect multiple articles based on a single relatively uncommon incidence (the reason we have such an old consensus is probably because this has not really come up that often). AIRcorn (talk) 01:25, 1 May 2020 (UTC)

The viability of your argument that instability is not a reason to delist apparently hinges on the assessment of the consensus of this RfC which was opened after a content dispute on "Poker Face" (Lady Gaga song). There is a footnote on criterion 5: "Reverted vandalism, proposals to split or merge content, good faith improvements to the page (such as copy editing), and changes based on reviewers' suggestions do not apply to the "stable" criterion. Nominations for articles that are unstable because of disruptive editing may be failed or placed on hold." In the specific case of the Lady Gaga song it was argued that edit warring was "being done under a silly pretext", but the assumption in the RfC was to take it as a good-faith disagreement rather than disruptive editing. The RfC was closed at 18:23, 18 June 2009, about a week after the last comment there, without a formal assessment of consensus, but while it was still open Geometry guy added this to the reassessment guidelines on 10 June 2009 (with edit summary "Add clause per RFC at WT:GAR)":

• Requesting reassessment during a content dispute or edit war is usually inappropriate: reviewers are rarely content experts, nor can they reassess a moving target. Wait until the article stabilizes and then consider reassessment; if significant instability persists for more than a couple of weeks, then reassessment on the grounds of instability may be considered.

The length of time to wait before considering reassessment on the grounds of instability wasn't discussed in that RfC, but I see several contemporary comments supporting "a couple of weeks":

• I guess I'll give the article a total of two weeks for the problems to be addressed and delist if they aren't. Thanks for the help guys. DiverseMentality 21:43, 19 December 2008 (UTC)
• Currently there's the backlog template on this page, despite there only being seven articles here right now. Do you think we can just remove it? Noble Story (talk • contributions) 00:54, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

  It automatically lists reassessments more than 2 weeks old, and automatically removes itself when there are none. Geometry guy 08:11, 20 April 2009 (UTC)

• Community GARs are only deliberately kept open for about 2 weeks in most cases. The fact that many remain open for 2 months or more has nothing to do with some idea that good editing happens in the second month. Instead it reflects the fact that closing GARs is a difficult responsibility which takes time to do properly - and editors with the inclination and expertise to do so are few. An article should be listed as a GA if it meets the GA criteria and not listed if it does not. Geometry guy 23:17, 3 July 2011 (UTC)

So wait two weeks, if the content dispute doesn't resolve in that time, put them on notice for another two weeks, and if after four weeks they are still disputing some content then delist it.

Thanks to BlueMoonset for pointing out this 3 March 2016 edit which they characterized as "overreach". I would use a stronger word. At this time the text "If significant instability persists for more than a couple of weeks, then reassessment on the grounds of instability may be considered." had been in the article guideline for 6 years, 8 months. Prhartcom's edit summary Major copy edit. Tried to bring consistency to the instructions for both types of reassessment. Did not change any guidelines, only improved formatting and clarity in the wording of the existing guidelines. is not truthful. Removal of the longstanding advice that after waiting two weeks, reassessment on the grounds of instability could be considered, was an (apparently bold and undiscussed) change in this guideline that put it in conflict with the "GA six". This change should have been, and still should be, reverted. – wbm1058 (talk) 16:21, 1 May 2020 (UTC)

Oh, wait. The lead paragraph at WP:GAR states The outcome of a reassessment should only depend on whether the article being reassessed meets the good article criteria or not. That pretty unambiguously says that there are no separate reassessment criteria. – wbm1058 (talk) 19:57, 30 April 2020 (UTC)

• At the risk of sounding like a broken record, assessments of neutrality need to point to specific content in the source material that is inadequately represented in the article (or misrepresented). I do not see sufficient specificity in the GAR. This is not to say legitimate concerns with this article don't exist, but they have not been demonstrated clearly enough. As with Awilley, I'm not going to take a position here (the GAR was within-process, in any case; this discussion, as far as I can see, cannot overturn it; that would need a new GA review), but "biased, delist" isn't a useful thing to say at any point, because that is turning this process into a battleground, as it doesn't allow for improvement of the article. Vanamonde (Talk) 14:43, 1 May 2020 (UTC)

  struck, per below. Vanamonde (Talk) 01:08, 2 May 2020 (UTC)

Thank you for your insight, Vanamonde93, but I actually did explain the non-neutral issues in various places during the discussion, most recently in the formal close as follows (my bold underline): MOS:LEAD states that the article should be well-written, and summarize the most important points, including any prominent controversies. The lead fails to include any prominent controversies, and there are several, including allegations of inappropriate touching and sexual assault; however, as evidenced on the article's TP there are ongoing content disputes. The article also fails neutrality in that it does not represent viewpoints fairly and without editorial bias, giving due weight to each. I further elaborated by providing examples of material that was not presented in a dispassionate tone (the tragedies) and that were UNDUE as over-emphasized trivia. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Atsme (talk • contribs) 16:46, 1 May 2020 (UTC)

Reply:

• If the "prominent controversy" you are referring to is Joe Biden sexual assault allegation I think including it in the lead would be undue recentism — dozens of controversies will likely arise during the course of a US presidential election, they do not all belong in the lede. Regardless of what I think, this is a content dispute that ought to be resolved by consensus, not you unilaterally deciding content should be included and thus the article is not worthy of GA status for not including it.
• I disagree with your claim that "the tragedies" are UNDUE and over-emphasized. With regard to UNDUE, this article is about Joe Biden and numerous reliable sources support the notion that "the tragedies" had a significant impact on his life. With regard to over-emphasis: the death of Neilia and Naomi is covered in one 135-word paragraph; the death of Beau is covered in one 85-word paragraph; Biden's brain surgeries are covered in four paragraphs, 253 words total (I agree that the fourth paragraph is trivia and I will boldly remove it after posting this comment—bringing this section down to three paragraphs, 216 words). These are all events that significantly impacted Biden's life; I fail to see how this level of coverage is UNDUE or over-emphasizing.
• If there is content written in a "dispassionate tone" please tag it or even just point it out on this page. If you already elaborated by providing examples of material that was not presented in a dispassionate tone, I kindly request that you direct me to where you provided such examples. I have tried to stay up-to-date on this discussion but I missed your examples.

userdude 17:54, 1 May 2020 (UTC)

@Vanamonde93: One function of community GARs is to reevvalute fails at GAN. We have never had to formally put it in writing that this also applies to delists at individual GARs as it has never really come up before, but the principle is the same. The Good Article process is deliberately simple by allowing individual editors to pass and delist articlew with relative felxibilty. However there needs to be a place to reavaluate contentious closes. This is the only place that can happen (I guess it could be done at the Good Article talk page if it is a blatent case of sockpuppeting or other obvious tom foolery). Bias may play a part in it (Atsme doing an individual reassessment shows an incredible lack judgement if nothing else), but the main reason I brought it here was because it was a bad close. There was no effort to give the article a chance to be saved, which is the fundamental principle of GAR and was pointed out several times. This was also in spite of multiple editors being willing to work on the article. Here was a chance for editors beleiving it should be delisted, or even better some impartial editors, to provide an actual proper reassessment. Instead it is turned into a rehash of editors saying delist because criteria and others saying explain how. The only good thing to come out of this is that it has highlighted that certain processes here need to be clarified and updated. Nothing like political wikilaywering to find the weak points in instructions. Anyway some poor bastard is going to have to read all this and come to a conclusion. My position is that if there is no consensus the default should be to keep it listed as that was the status quo before the reassessments started. AIRcorn (talk) 19:08, 1 May 2020 (UTC)

It's time for you to WP:DROPTHESTICK, Aircorn. You made my reassessment controversial when it should not have been and it was based on your fallacious allegations of it being political. Was my denial of the Trump GA nom also political? The problems with the article are blindingly obvious, and your insistence in keeping a 12-year-old promoted GA that has increased in size 4x, if not more, is now raising concern over your ability to reassess. If you think the guidelines need to be changed, then go in that direction instead of discrediting me. ^Atsme _Talk 📧 20:44, 1 May 2020 (UTC)

Aircorn, Vanamonde, it has been my impression that the community reassessment was always available (as was a new GAN) if an individual GAR was felt to be controversial or problematic. (Ditto for a GAN review with similar issues.) If such was not the case, the following would not currently be given as the standard {{Article history}} introductory text at Talk:Joe Biden: Joe Biden was one of the Social sciences and society good articles, but it has been removed from the list. There are suggestions below for improving the article to meet the good article criteria. Once these issues have been addressed, the article can be renominated. Editors may also seek a reassessment of the decision if they believe there was a mistake. This is a perfectly valid community reassessment of an earlier individual reassessment. BlueMoonset (talk) 01:00, 2 May 2020 (UTC)

@BlueMoonset: Thanks for the clarification (and you too, Aircorn). I've struck the relevant part of my statement above. I am going to still refrain from taking a position on whether this articles meets the GAC or not, but I will state again for the record that the original GAR did not provide detailed enough analysis (with reference to source material) as to why this fails NPOV at the moment. Vanamonde (Talk) 01:08, 2 May 2020 (UTC)

Are stability-based GARs appropriate?

I was reading through the WP:GAR page, and came across the following in both the Individual and Community "When to use this process" sections: You don't see any ongoing content dispute or edit war. If it's true that GARs should only be used when there aren't ongoing disputes/wars, why are we even here, and how was the original reassessment allowed to proceed at all?

It turns out that the basic idea comes down from a May/June 2009 RfC on the subject of stability reassessments. The discussion can be seen at Wikipedia talk:Good article reassessment/archive4#RfC: Reassessment of an "Unstable" Article. Consensus that something should be added to the GAR guidelines on their advisability resulted in this addition to the Community section (the feeling I get from the RfC is that individual assessments weren't appropriate, but it wasn't discussed enough for consensus): Requesting reassessment during a content dispute or edit war is usually inappropriate: reviewers are rarely content experts, nor can they reassess a moving target. Wait until the article stabilizes and then consider reassessment; if significant instability persists for more than a couple of weeks, then reassessment on the grounds of instability may be considered. The reviewers are rarely content experts, nor can they reassess a moving target phrase was removed by Aircorn in October 2012, and the current wording and expansion to all reassessments dates from March 2016. These last edits strike me as overreach, but it's interesting how many GAR nominators ignore this and many other portions of the GAR guidelines.

To answer my own question, and absent a new consensus, I'd say generally not, and delisting for stability reasons is a controversial enough practice that it should be only done as a community reassessment. Otherwise, you have editors who, as in this case, have decided the article needs to be delisted immediately, and GAR is the tailor-made process to do so. BlueMoonset (talk) 19:23, 25 April 2020 (UTC)

I am not a regular here, and Iam only going to comment on one issue: an unstable article , should not be listed as a GA. I do not see why it should be controversial.It implies a disagreement over appropriate content, and an article with such disagreement is not a GA until agreement is reached. I do not know the background of the 2009 RfC in issue, but it seems to have reached no conclusion at all. (I'm rather skeptical on the appropriateness of deciding things by 10 yr old RfCs in general) . DGG ( talk ) 19:53, 25 April 2020 (UTC)

This is probably a discussion for the talk page as it covers more than just this article. This case does highlight the issue though. From practical purposes I have closed the vast majority of community reassessments and I don't recall once delisting one for stability. In most cases they are brought here by an editor failing to get their version approved, edit warring and then claiming it can't be "Good" because of the so called edit war. We have various means to deal with content disputes and this place should not be one of them. If we take the stability criteria as including heavily edited articles or ones where content is disputed most Good Articles on current BLPs (sports personalities, politicians, etc) controversial topics (take your pick of any fringe topic) or even popular interest topics like (various sciences, countries etc) would fail it at some point. In fact even some pretty mundane articles go through periods of contentious editing. Also the aim of a reassessment is to fix an article and we fix unstablity by dealing with the root cause, either through an RFC, protection or if necessary blocks. Delisting it does not fix those issues. And then if the article stabilises do we have to have another reassessment to promote it again because it is now stable. AIRcorn (talk) 23:14, 25 April 2020 (UTC)

If stability was not an issue, it would not be one of our 6 criteria. I agree that GAR is not the place to deal with content issues, and yes, that discussion belongs on the article TP so that editors can fix the problems. When reviewing a GA, we do not edit the article, and when reassessing to delist a GA we do not edit the article, so why even bring it up? All cases are different so there is no concrete rule that applies here. We are talking about an article that was initially promoted 12 years ago when it was a fraction of the size it is now. Hopefully the process has evolved since then, and so have our standards. It is not a good article, it is not well-written, it is unwieldy in its trivia and hard to read, it is overly promotional, has neutrality issues, and more. Instability is a symptom of other issues - I refer back to the list of reasons in the highlighted section above. There are 5 reasons listed - all valid and easily spotted by an experienced reviewer/editor. In the first GA3 delist, an editor pointed out the need for a sourcing review because of neutrality concerns, and I agree. I recently attempted to recruit 2 admins to help me address Awilley's comments above because the goal is to improve the article so it will once again pass a GA review. I think BD2412 summed it up correctly in his succinct response when he politely turned down my invitation. I agree with him. It doesn't take much to see why the article was delisted, and why leaving it as a GA is a terrible reflection on the process. In the state it is in today, it is certainly not what we want representing WP's GAs. ^Atsme _Talk 📧 01:15, 26 April 2020 (UTC)

Aircorn, the thing is that Atsme listed five reasons and the article RIGHT NOWis failing for those five reasons. There is just too much back and forth, and content disputing going on. The article is not neutral, the article is not stable. It just isn't a GOOD ARTICLE. It's just as simple as that. Sir Joseph ^(talk) 05:13, 27 April 2020 (UTC)

Five reasons without context and some even without examples, is not five reasons at all. —MelbourneStar☆^talk 05:19, 27 April 2020 (UTC)

If you visit the talk page, you can see all the examples you need. It is clear as day that the article is not a GA candidate. What was in 2009 is not the same article. I don't get the urgency of keeping it. Delist, wait a few months and relist once everything settles. Sir Joseph ^(talk) 05:27, 27 April 2020 (UTC)

I could literally say the same thing about not understanding the urgency to delist, considering the onus is actually on those that brought this 'GAR to delist' on in the first place. Secondly, "visit the talk page, you can see all the examples" is clearly unhelpful. This is a GAR, the examples are supposed to be brought up here and discussed (especially when asked). —MelbourneStar☆^talk 05:30, 27 April 2020 (UTC)

It just makes it sound more and more like this process is being used to settle a talk page dispute. AIRcorn (talk) 23:19, 27 April 2020 (UTC)

I would encourage a wider discussion on this point at WT:GA. To the extent that this section is a question of policy, I agree with the 2009 consensus. We discourage edit wars because it harms the collaborative spirit by inflaming tensions between editors. Similarly, turning the GAR process into a venue for editors in a content dispute to complain about how the article is on The Wrong Version is not a good idea since it will most likely inflame tensions without leading to actual improvements. As an example, what meaningful improvement has come from this discussion, and how has this discussion fostered a spirit of collaboration among editors of the article? As with the 2009 discussion, I think the best procedure is to not have a GAR until after a content dispute is resolved, and if the consensus version does not comply with the GA standards, using GAR to figure out what improvements ought to be made at that point. The alternative—delisting any article in the middle of a content dispute or update—places bureaucratic nitpickery over maintaining an encyclopedia and risks editors using the GAR process to make an end run around our normal consensus building processes. — Wug·a·po·des​ 21:14, 27 April 2020 (UTC)

One exception might be if the article clearly fails the criteria before the edit war occurred. I don't think a content dispute should be a reason to have a GAR, but by the same token it should not be a reason not to have one if there were already serious flaws with the article. Although thinking about it as I type this it could be gamed quite easily so maybe better just to not have GARs during content disputes period. There is really no rush to delist articles, some sit here for months anyway before they are closed let alone the hundreds that have unresolved tags. Agree that this needs to be decided at a talk page not during a specific reassessment. AIRcorn (talk) 23:27, 27 April 2020 (UTC)

I totally disagree. We don't keep GAs for the same reason we fail them. When I delisted that article, there was not an ongoing content dispute or edit war - the RfC resolved that dispute (on the side I supported actually), and the edit warring had stopped. We don't keep GAs because of edit warring and instability. The article fails on 5 counts right out of the box. Instability is one of them, noncompliance with NPOV is another, MOS failings, yet another. I was not involved in any of the edit warring, I couldn't care less about what's going on at that article except for the fact that it clearly does not deserve GA status, and that is where my focus is and always has been. Nowhere in our GA guideline does it say you can simply overturn a delist - there needs to be more respect shown for that process. The article has already been through an initial GA3 and delisting was supported as it has been supported here. The only option that aligns with our GAR guideline is to renominate the article after the issues have been resolved and allow it to properly go through a complete GA review because of its expansion and the fact that it is not even close to the same article that was passed 12 years ago. It is going to need an experienced reviewer, and my top choices would be CaroleHenson or The Rambling Man, if they would oblige. It will not be an easy undertaking because of its unwieldy size, promotional nature and NPOV issues. ^Atsme _Talk 📧 21:30, 28 April 2020 (UTC)

With due respect, several users have raised issues with your closure of GA3 (including that it should not have been raised as an individual review to begin with)—but you have not responded to this concern, nor have you responded to the requests for examples of NPOV violations. You continue to assert NPOV and MOS violations without providing examples. Please do not try to move the goalposts of this discussion into needing a new GA review when it was clearly raised as a continuation of the GA3. userdude 22:55, 28 April 2020 (UTC)

Experienced GA reviewers have already provided the information, and if you can't see where the problems are after multiple veteran editors have pointed them out, including an Arb, there is nothing more I need to say here except Happy Editing! ^Atsme _Talk 📧 23:29, 28 April 2020 (UTC)

UserDude I'd argue Atsme's conduct as it relates to this article's GA smacks of WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT; when pressed on specifics, the editor has repeatedly chosen to either not respond or respond without diffs/examples. If you're going to open a GAR, delist an article, be prepared to actually answer questions and back up your rationale. —MelbourneStar☆^talk 04:53, 29 April 2020 (UTC)

Appeal to authority much. Being an arb doesn't automatically give you specialised knowledge into the GA process. If we are going by experienced reviewers look at this page here User:GA bot/Stats. I have five times the number of reviews as all the editors advocating delist here combined and I have still yet to see anyone provide a set of actionable reasons why this fails. If you still need more evidence of experience then look through the closed reassessments (221 vs 5) The only other person here who could be classed as a regular is BlueMoonset who has commented on 73. These claims of experienced GA reviewers are as specious as the evidence you are providing here on how this fails the criteria. Please look at how other reassessments are conducted as you clearly do not understand the process. AIRcorn (talk) 07:32, 29 April 2020 (UTC)

Re Atsme (edit conflict) But that's my whole point about placing bureaucratic nitpickery over maintaining an encyclopedia. Yes the rules might say to do X, but depending on the context, doing X may actually cause more harm than good. We're here to build an encyclopedia, not play cop over a green circle, which is why I and others have been stressing the point that GARs are collaborations to improve articles rather than a place to resolve a content dispute. So yes, you've brought up other points besides stability, but the title of this section is "Are stability-based GARs appropriate?" and so Aircorn and I are discussing that specific question; should criterion 5 apply to reassessments? I think no. GARs during and in response to content disputes are an c2:AntiPattern like edit warring. The process turns into a WP:BATTLEGROUND to gain leverage in the content dispute, and the superordinate goal of improving the article and encyclopedia take a back seat to winning an argument. The encyclopedia isn't better off because an article has or does not have a green circle in the top corner, it is better off when people work through issues and collaborate to build stuff.

With that said, I want to address your argument more directly, because I think it further exemplifies why GARs during content disputes go badly. In your opening and closing comments at Talk:Joe Biden/GA3 you cite edit warring as reasons to delist the article. In your 21:41, 16 April 2020 comment on that page, you say there is edit warring and controversy surrounding it. If it ever settles down, it can be renominated., and on this page, your second reason for delisting the article is, in bold, This article is plagued by edit warring. Your argument in this thread is that When I delisted that article, there was not an ongoing content dispute or edit war, but it seems like that is directly contradicted by your previous comment here and elsewhere. Not only are these arguments internally inconsistent, they provide no direction for how to improve an article. We have tools to resolve stability concerns, but when we use those tools that is also brought up as a reason to delist the article (argument 1: The article is currently under PP, DS with a 1RR restriction which is a clear indication that it is a locus of chaos). Stability concerns are set up like a catch-22; if the article is unstable, delist it, if administrators try to stabilize an article, that's evidence of instability and we should delist it. How is the GAR process supposed to work when the discussion is structured to force a particular outcome? I don't really care whether Joe Biden, or any article, has a green circle; I do care that the GAR process is used to build an encyclopedia and that our policies and standards reflect that goal. — Wug·a·po·des​ 07:46, 29 April 2020 (UTC)

Please...sorry, but no. To begin, I find your comment "not play cop over a green circle" disrespectful to the process. In my eyes it is not just a "green circle". I will not indulge further in this unwarranted trial because it appears too much like wikilawyering. Apply the arguments you presented to me to yourselves because it works both ways with one exception - I hold that green circle and what it stands for in high regard, so please proceed with your suggestions to fix and improve the article which is the whole purpose in reassessing and renominating. But please, don't attempt to improve the article here - do it at the article TP where such discussion belongs. It is good to know that your focus is on fixing the problems and stabilizing it, and that the delisting and removal of the "green circle" is not where the focus should be. I feel that I have done my job here as a GA/FA reviewer/promoter in upholding the integrity of the process. Happy editing. ^Atsme _Talk 📧 16:05, 29 April 2020 (UTC)

I would encourage you to read User:Wugapodes/Good article status is no big deal to understand why I don't care about whether I'm disrespecting a process that has no feelings, and why I do care that GARs are more than an up-or-down vote. I've reviewed over 50 good articles nomination, written 5, and improved two of those to FA status, so I think my opinions on the process developed over the years are more than simply wikilawyering. If you would like to see the article improved, we get to the question of how to improve it? If you are such a stickler for The Process, why are you ignoring the GAR guidelines which state Remember, the aim is not to delist the article, but to fix it by saying don't attempt to improve the article here? People have asked you for specifics; you provided a list of points; other editors responded to those points; in 5 days you haven't responded to any of those comments. Your only comments since then have been to argue with people who question whether this is a good use of our time or within the spirit of the process. You're free to not participate in the community reassessment, but as the one who undertook the individual reassessment, you are not immune from having your decision and reasoning scrutinized. — Wug·a·po·des​ 20:33, 29 April 2020 (UTC)

You might want to read this article to get an idea of how things are being viewed by media. ^Atsme _Talk 📧 16:10, 29 April 2020 (UTC)

• I think this conversation isn't going anywhere fast on this page. Might I suggest that this be recapitulated in a neutral way on the GA talk page? It will get more people in the discussion and from a wider audience. Having this discussion only in the context of Joe Biden seems to be cause for discontent. CaptainEek ^{Edits Ho Cap'n!}⚓ 17:47, 29 April 2020 (UTC)
• Find it preposterous that an article that has grown 3-4 fold since it was unilaterally promoted to GA like forever ago and has had a history of recent edit warring issues, suffers recentism issues, has POV issues, has NPOV issues (all evidenced by sometimes heated discussions at the article talkpage), has maintenance tag issues as clearly mentioned repeatedly and ignored by filibustering demands to provide specifics that are not even necessary since these issues alone fail this for GAC outright. If this article was presented to me for review I would immediately fail it. As I mentioned previously but apparently no one is reading...until this article is stable it should not be a GA but once it IS stable, then perhaps renominate it for GAC and see if someone passes it. I sure wouldn't in this current state, but I won't review it. I am amazed that the very criteria that would be an immediate fail at GAC are being simply ignored. These criteria are posted at the top of the GAC criteria page...if you're going to ignore that criteria then put that page up for Mfd.--MONGO (talk) 21:20, 29 April 2020 (UTC)

+1. You basically hit the nail on the head for the issues here or lack there of. PackMecEng (talk) 01:35, 30 April 2020 (UTC)

This highlights the problem I mention in my comment. You have never conducted a GA review in your 15 years editing here, yet state with absolute certainty that you would immediately fail this one. AIRcorn (talk) 01:08, 30 April 2020 (UTC)

Yes! Based on the posted criteria. Maybe my 30 FA level article contributions of which I was the primary on more than a dozen? Maybe based on my experience doing peer reviews and FAC reviews? I recognize GA and FA are vastly different but one can read the criteria, so since you seem to want to ignore that criteria then may as well throw it to Mfd.--MONGO (talk) 10:51, 30 April 2020 (UTC)

I am only ignoring the stability one for reasons I have elaborated on about half a dozen pages now. The rest are fair game. The thing is we don't just say it fails a criteria we explain how it does. I don't doubt your FA credentials, but like you say this is a vastly different beast. I wouldn't show up at FA and insist I knew how it should operate if that flew in the face of how experienced editors there say it operates. AIRcorn (talk) 01:37, 1 May 2020 (UTC)

Not to be rude but you are welcome to try and change the criteria. You do not get to ignore it though. PackMecEng (talk) 02:49, 1 May 2020 (UTC)

"You do not get to ignore it though" said with such confidence! I must say that is quite funny considering how those arguing to delist have "ignored" simple questions asking for specifics. Like examples of the supposed NPOV breaches. —MelbourneStar☆^talk 04:37, 1 May 2020 (UTC)

The consensus as described at the start of this section is not to delist based on instability. It applies if we are nominating an article for GA, but doesn't if we are delisting one. AIRcorn (talk) 05:19, 1 May 2020 (UTC)

I think we are seeing different consensus, because I am seeing consensus to follow policy. Which would delist based on instability. Specifically per WP:GAR, The outcome of a reassessment should only depend on whether the article being reassessed meets the good article criteria or not. PackMecEng (talk) 14:33, 1 May 2020 (UTC)

No, you don't get to close this one anymore than I could close the GA3 and not be challenged. You are involved as the OP. A third party closer completely independent of GA needs to close this discussion. Some good closers who have been acknowledged as good closers would be SilkTork, Emir of Wikipedia, GRuban and the like - impartial, experienced and nonpolitical. ^Atsme _Talk 📧 15:36, 1 May 2020 (UTC)

On second thought, I agree with Vanamonde's statement above: "...(the GAR was within-process, in any case; this discussion, as far as I can see, cannot overturn it; that would need a new GA review),.... I hope participation in this GAR has incentivized editors to participate in (a) improving the GAR process and (b) helping to fix the problems at the delisted article to make it worthy of GA status. ^Atsme _Talk 📧 17:10, 1 May 2020 (UTC)

Strictly within the language of WP:GAR Vanamonde93's statement seems to be correct. As far as I can tell, GAN is the only GAR review process. Also strictly within the language of WP:GAR, I could open thousands of GARs en masse, assert neutrality violations, not respond to requests for specifics, and unilaterally decide that consensus is heavily in favor of delisting. I assert this is equivalent to Atsme's GA3, thus the delist result of GA3 should not be considered final and this community GAR should be seen as a continuation of GA3. userdude 17:54, 1 May 2020 (UTC)

GA3 formal close

As a formality - upon the thoughtful suggestion of Vanamonde93 yesterday, I concluded the independent reassessment Talk:Joe Biden/GA3 by providing a more formal close. It appears a few editors were confused or lacked a clear understanding of the reason behind the independent reassessment; therefore, the formal close brings further clarity without anyone having to spend a great deal of time actually reading the more detailed explanations in the lengthy discussions. I am dismayed by some of the allegations in the GAR and in this community reassessment that were used as part of the basis for challenging the first GAR, such as political motivation and a bit of back and forth regarding a lack of experience with the GA process by some of the participants. Of the 6 editors who have supported the delist (MONGO, Mz7, CaptainEek, DGG, PackMecEng, and myself), all but PME are experienced reviewers in either the GA or FA process and/or as qualified reviewers per WP:GOOD, including a few with experience in the reassessment process, so I'm not quite sure what the OP is referring to when he calls out inexperience. Furthermore, the allegation that the delist action was politically motivated is absurd, the absurdity of which is evidenced in some of the oppose statements, not to mention that the primary purpose of a reassessment is to improve an article. I see no correlation with politics unless there is a motive to use GA status as a means of assuring readers that everything in the article is factually accurate and represents a NPOV which is what an article's stability represents and why we attach a GA symbol. Granted, the AP topic area can be rather toxic which helps explain why so few editors want to spend any time there, and why I don't edit those articles. My main focus on WP has always been to promote/review and participate in article improvement and to help build the encyclopedia by attending WikiConferences, and becoming a member of several WikiProjects, including the Lead Improvement Team. I am also a qualified reviewer at NPP/AfC, and have 17 GAs and 8 FAs to my credit as either a nom or reviewer. The one editor of the 6 who supported delisting qualifies as a GA reviewer but I am not aware if their qualifications have yet been put to use, except for this reassessment. Happy editing. ^Atsme _Talk 📧 15:29, 1 May 2020 (UTC)

You brought experience into this when you said Experienced GA reviewers have already provided the information. I was pointing out the relative experiences of the reviewers as it seemed to be being used as a reason to delist the article without actually providing any substance. The lack of experience is not really the issue anyway, it is the lack of listening to editors with the experience. You have been involved in three community reassessments including this one. In the other two you display the same battleground behaviour you are displaying here. When editors that have been involved in many times more try and explain how Good Article reassessments should be conducted it is generally a good idea to listen to them instead of doubling down that you are right. Myself and BlueMoonset are probably the two most active editors here and we have both tried to explain how things work. Vandemonde and Wugapodes (each with over 50 reviews to their name) have also questioned the way the process was used to conduct your reassessment. By contrast the six you mention as being experienced reviewers have 0,8,3,0,0, and 10 reviews to there names respectively (as recorded by User:GA bot/Stats, which while not perfect is the best we have at keeping track of such things). Their input is more than welcome and can be valuable, but lets keep it in context. AIRcorn (talk) 00:25, 2 May 2020 (UTC)

@Aircorn:, I just came across this. You say you have much experience with GA, is it normal for an editor who initiates a review saying this fails GA is also the same editor to perform an Independent close of the review? I'm quite shocked. starship.paint (talk) 06:05, 31 May 2020 (UTC)

• @Starship.paint: Sorry been away for a bit. If you are talking about Talk:Joe Biden/GA3, then that is how it is supposed to work. There are individual reassessments and community ones. That was an individual one so it is expected for the initiated to close it. This one here however is a community one so it will need an independent closer. AIRcorn (talk) 07:17, 11 June 2020 (UTC)

Closing this discussion

@Aircorn and Atsme: It's been 3 weeks since the last comment here. Should this discussion be closed? Username⁶⁸⁹² 20:14, 24 May 2020 (UTC)

Nothing has changed - the same issues that resulted in the original GAR3 delist still exist with more occurring. The article fails WP:GAR: The outcome of a reassessment should only depend on whether the article being reassessed meets the good article criteria or not. In a nutshell, it does not meet GA criteria. The article continues to be unstable, it is constantly changing, there are serious issues involving NPOV that are not being addressed, particularly in the lead as well as several issues in the body. See my most recent comment regarding those issues wherein I basically point to NPOV, (DUE & BALANCE). Read Talk:Joe Biden - read the lead of the article. There is nothing in the lead about any controversy, as if none exists, including his inappropriate behavior which dates back to his Senate days - nothing about the sexual abuse allegation per WP:LEAD which also refers back to NPOV & DUE. There is nothing about the Ukrainian investigation, despite coverage by WaPo, AP, etc. There is an attempt to keep his racist comment out of the article despite WP:PUBLICFIGURE: ...which means representing fairly, proportionately, and, as far as possible, without editorial bias, all the significant views that have been published by reliable sources on a topic. The article still has maintenance banners and would have more if they were not being reverted. Read the GAR3 discussion, and reassessment of the reassessment which resulted in no improvement of the article because, quite simply, it is unstable and because of PP, DS, and various edit restrictions it is unlikely to be stable, much less comply with NPOV. ^Atsme _Talk 📧 11:57, 31 May 2020 (UTC)

The best way is to request a close either at the WT:GAN page or the Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Requests for closure. There are still a few open reassessments above this so if someone wants to close those it will bump this one further up the queue. AIRcorn (talk) 07:21, 11 June 2020 (UTC)

There are currently no fewer than three Biden-related requests for closure at the administrators' noticeboard (permanent link). One of these was just recently closed, while the other two have been archived without a formal closure. I believe that occasionally RfCs are formally closed after they have been moved to archives.

Talk:Joe Biden sexual assault allegation#RfC: "... alleged that Biden ..."

(Initiated 1477 days ago on 25 April 2020) Formal close needed. Thanks. --- C&C (Coffeeandcrumbs) 19:09, 21 May 2020 (UTC)

•  Done.—S Marshall T/C 15:29, 18 June 2020 (UTC)

Talk:Joe Biden sexual assault allegation/Archive 11#RfC: Should a separate section be included that lists people who have been told by Reade of her allegation, under a heading 'Corroborating statements', 'Witness statements', or similar?

(Initiated 1471 days ago on 1 May 2020) Non-involved admin close requested; controversial topic. Archived RfC. petrarchan47คุก 23:11, 15 June 2020 (UTC)

Talk:Joe Biden sexual assault allegation/Archive 10#RfC: Should we use the word "corroborate" to describe accounts that align with parts of the allegation?

(Initiated 1464 days ago on 8 May 2020)

Non-involved admin close requested; controversial topic. Archived RfC. petrarchan47คุก 23:11, 15 June 2020 (UTC)

These requests for closure certainly lend credence to the assertions that the article has not been stable for an extended period of time. wbm1058 (talk) 11:14, 19 June 2020 (UTC)

It's easy to miss that the three discussions I boxed above are about the content of the sub-article Joe Biden sexual assault allegation, and thus are not directly applicable to the GAR of this article, the main bio. However, the discussion linked below,

Talk:Joe Biden#RFC: "Allegations of inappropriate physical contact" header, is applicable, and has not been closed yet. – wbm1058 (talk) 16:12, 27 June 2020 (UTC)

There is also another open RfC "Allegations of inappropriate physical contact" header which was started 22 May 2020. – wbm1058 (talk) 16:22, 19 June 2020 (UTC)

I have read through this discussion and have formulated a rough closure in my head. I'm working on getting the close keyboarded and expect to post my close later today. This will be my first-ever close of a Good article (re-)assessment. Normally I would defer to a more experienced closer for such a high-profile case as this, but I see that the most active GAR participants are involved in the discussion and this project doesn't have that many active administrators closing discussions – hence I am stepping up. I have posted three comments to this discussion, but this can be closed by any uninvolved registered user. (Significant contributors to the article are "involved", as are reassessment nominators; editors are not usually considered to be "involved" unless they have contributed significantly to GA disagreements about the article prior to the community reassessment.) I did not contribute to Talk:Joe Biden/GA3 except in the post-close comments. More than four weeks have passed since the reassessment was opened on 22 April 2020‎.

19 editors have contributed to this discussion 12 of 19 also participated in the individual reasssessmet

16 editors contributed to the individual reassessment 12 of 16 also contributed to the community reassessment

23 editiors contributed to one or both of these discussions. Consensus is determined by weight of argument rather than counting votes, but given that, to ensure that I've accounted for everyone's arguments, my rough count is:

* Keep (2): Coffeeandcrumbs, MelbourneStar

* Delist (9): Atsme, CaptainEek, ConstantPlancks, DGG, MONGO, Mz7, PackMecEng, Sir Joseph, Vfrickey

* Neutral or unclear (10): Aircorn, Awilley, BlueMoonset, Starship.paint, UserDude, Username6892, Vanamonde93, Wasted Time R, Wbm1058, Wugapodes

* Technical edits only (2): MrX, SNUGGUMS

The line between neutral and keep is a bit fuzzy. I have the sense that several "neutral" editors would like to find a way to keep, but generally these editors are more concerned with process than the outcome. The "delist" voters have more conviction. – wbm1058 (talk) 15:22, 19 June 2020 (UTC)

 Doing... wbm1058 (talk) 11:14, 19 June 2020 (UTC)

First things to look for: "Before conducting an extensive review, and after ensuring you are viewing an unvandalized version, check that the article does not have cleanup banners that are obviously still valid, including {{cleanup}}, {{POV}}, {{unreferenced}} or large numbers of {{citation needed}}, {{clarify}}, or similar inline tags." Given this, after two (individual and community) reviews, I was surprised to find some of these unaddressed issues:

• remove from Category:Pages with reference errors by restoring references that were removed by the edit 04:36, 6 June 2020
• Remove {{better source}} tag which was added without explanation at 12:55, 2 May 2019 by Tobby72. How can you improve on a primary source which is a video of the man speaking himself? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D1j0FS0Z6ho
• clarify statement about net worth

Remaining are a few dated statement categorizations, as old as "Articles containing potentially dated statements from September 2015". I'll assume it isn't expected to try to update these for GA status to be maintained. – wbm1058 (talk) 18:25, 19 June 2020 (UTC)

Reassessment

Good article reassessment (GAR) is a process primarily used to determine whether an article that is listed as good article (GA) still merits its good article status according to the good article criteria. Most GARs don't include this ({{subst:GATable}}), but, as a first-time reviewer/closer I thought it would be a useful exercise:

Rate	Attribute	Review Comment
1. Well-written:
	1a. the prose is clear, concise, and understandable to an appropriately broad audience; spelling and grammar are correct.	I've just finished reading the article and have clarified the prose and corrected grammar in a few places. Apparently this was not done by earlier reviewers in this community review. wbm1058 (talk) 18:01, 20 June 2020 (UTC)
	1b. it complies with the Manual of Style guidelines for lead sections, layout, words to watch, fiction, and list incorporation.	The lead section was reviewed for compliance in this discussion. As a general rule of thumb, a lead section should contain no more than four well-composed paragraphs; the lead now has five, so it's pushing the length limits, but not yet so far as to cause a fail here (this issue wasn't raised in the discussion). While assertions were made about trivia in the body, I didn't see any suggestions for removal of specific text from the lead. The lead should summarize any prominent controversies. wbm1058 (talk) 15:10, 21 June 2020 (UTC)
2. Verifiable with no original research:
	2a. it contains a list of all references (sources of information), presented in accordance with the layout style guideline.	The article appears to be well referenced. I have not done a thorough review for this. wbm1058 (talk) 21:06, 20 June 2020 (UTC)
	2b. reliable sources are cited inline. All content that could reasonably be challenged, except for plot summaries and that which summarizes cited content elsewhere in the article, must be cited no later than the end of the paragraph (or line if the content is not in prose).	The sources appear to be reliable. I have not done a thorough review for this. wbm1058 (talk) 21:06, 20 June 2020 (UTC)
	2c. it contains no original research.	No evidence of OR has been presented. I have not done a thorough review for this. wbm1058 (talk) 21:06, 20 June 2020 (UTC)
	2d. it contains no copyright violations or plagiarism.	No evidence has been presented. I have not done a thorough review for this. wbm1058 (talk) 21:06, 20 June 2020 (UTC)
3. Broad in its coverage:
	3a. it addresses the main aspects of the topic.	The Wikipedia:Out of scope essay says "Use the most general scope for each article you can. Since Wikipedia is a general encyclopedia, it's supposed to summarise essentially all knowledge. Hence accidental or deliberate choice of a limited scope for an article can make notable information disappear from the encyclopedia entirely, or make it highly inaccessible.", which appears to discourage exclusion of "trivia", which seems counter to the advice of the next requirement (3b) to not go into unnecessary detail. wbm1058 (talk) 22:24, 20 June 2020 (UTC)
	3b. it stays focused on the topic without going into unnecessary detail (see summary style).	Hey! "focused on the topic" links to Wikipedia:Article size – and Wikipedia:Summary style is all about splitting to subtopics. So, not so fast about that stuff being out-of-scope for GA reviews. A split was proposed on 24 April 2020 which quickly gained consensus in support. Vice presidency of Joe Biden was created on 30 April 2020‎ and United States Senate career of Joe Biden was created on 1 May 2020‎, but as discussed on 18 May this work has yet to be finished. In contrast with the longish lead of this article (1b above) the leads of Vice presidency of Joe Biden and United States Senate career of Joe Biden are each just one short paragraph, making it difficult to summarize those sections here. This article cannot be recertified as a Good Article until after this work is done. wbm1058 (talk) 17:00, 27 June 2020 (UTC)
	4. Neutral: it represents viewpoints fairly and without editorial bias, giving due weight to each.	This is such a subjective criterion that I feel that it can only be determined by consensus in a community discussion. What I mostly see in this discussion is an assertion that the article is not neutral responded to by mostly unanswered requests for specifics, and some acknowledgement(s) of "good faith claims that the article lacks neutrality". This criterion feels somewhat redundant to me. I think an article that passes all other criteria, particularly stability, is unlikely to fail on just this one. In any event the discussion hasn't sufficiently specifically addressed this criterion for me to make a call. wbm1058 (talk) 22:50, 27 June 2020 (UTC)
	5. Stable: it does not change significantly from day to day because of an ongoing edit war or content dispute.	As indicated above 9 !voters were leaning to delist based on instability. This was a borderline "no consensus" discussion, but regardless the outcome is the same. See additional comments below.
6. Illustrated, if possible, by media such as images, video, or audio:
	6a. media are tagged with their copyright statuses, and valid non-free use rationales are provided for non-free content.	All 39 images in the article are tagged; most as public domain or creative commons. wbm1058 (talk) 21:58, 20 June 2020 (UTC)
	6b. media are relevant to the topic, and have suitable captions.	All 39 images in the article are relevant and captioned. wbm1058 (talk) 21:58, 20 June 2020 (UTC)
	7. Overall assessment.

Neutrality and stability

Items 4 and 5 are the "elephant in the room" around which this GAR revolves. I view these criteria as very much connected because the crux of the stability issues revolve around disputes over neutrality. Indeed § Are stability-based GARs appropriate? discusses this.

I noticed a discussion at Wikipedia talk:Good article nominations, "List of Wikipedians by number of Good articles?" and volunteered to work on producing such a list (after I finish closing this). I think such a list for the "content creators" would nicely balance out the "gnomes list". Based on the algorithm for producing that list, I see that Wasted Time R would get credit for this GA. Indeed this seems to be a good measure based on the XTools report which gives them a significant margin over other editors in authorship, number of edits, and added text.

A point of contention in this GAR is whether an article can be delisted based on the Immediate failures criteria. It was asserted that "there is no such thing as an immediate fail at GAR" and the "immediate" part only applies to new GA nominations. But GAR determines whether an article that is listed as good article still merits its GA status according to the good article criteria. There are no separate "review criteria", so I find that the "immediate" part does apply. However, the Wikipedia:Good article reassessment "When to use this process" guideline says "Use the individual reassessment process if You don't see any ongoing content dispute or edit war and "Requesting (community) reassessment during a content dispute or edit war is usually inappropriate, wait until the article stabilizes and then consider reassessment. If significant instability persists for more than a couple of weeks, then reassessment on the grounds of instability may be considered." So, following the guideline, a GAR may only fail based on the "immediate" part after waiting at least two weeks to confirm persistent instability and obtaining a very clear consensus for an immediate fail from at least five editors in a community discussion. In fairness to Atsme, until I made this uncontested reversion, the guidelines were contradictory on stability-based reviews, so I can't fault her for starting an individual GAR. Editors are advised that in the future stability-based reassessments should only be done by the community process. This is to ensure fairness to editors like Wasted Time R who've put in a lot of work to get the article up to the GA standard. In any event, this review has gone on long enough that it is way past being able to be called an "immediate" review. - wbm1058 (talk) 21:48, 27 June 2020 (UTC)

Thanks Wbm1058 for noticing my past role, it is appreciated. But during 2015–16 I retired from working on this and other current political articles, so regardless of how much work I put into it in the past, I have accepted having no part in what happens to it going forward. I will say, as I mentioned previously in these GAR discussions, that I don't see stability per se as a barrier to GA/FA, since between 2008 and 2016 five of the six major party presidential candidate articles were FA at the time of the November elections (and some had been GA before that) and all of those may have looked on the surface like they had stability issues. But in reality the vast bulk of each article changed little from day to day and the value each article presented to the reader remained consistently high. That can be done here as well. Anyway, good luck with doing the rest of this close, you have taken on a pretty thankless task ... Wasted Time R (talk) 00:05, 28 June 2020 (UTC)

Precedents. Criterion 5 is open to interpretation: "it does not change significantly from day to day". The footnote to that provides some clarification: "Reverted vandalism, proposals to split or merge content, good faith improvements to the page (such as copy editing), and changes based on reviewers' suggestions do not apply to the "stable" criterion. Nominations for articles that are unstable because of disruptive editing may be failed or placed on hold." The key word open to interpretation is "significant". This word may be ambiguous in some situations. "Having a noticeable or major effect." "Reasonably large in number or amount." An article "undergoing rapid expansion or being rewritten" is undergoing significant change, but what about the addition of a single sentence to an already lengthy article? If that single sentence mentions allegations of sexual misconduct not previously mentioned in the article, that single sentence arguably has a noticeable or major effect. Edit-warring over the addition of that sentence may reasonably be interpreted as evidence that the addition had a noticeable effect; if it didn't, in my view an edit war is much less likely to develop.

I have heard the appeals to precedents. Wikipedia doesn't have any policies or guidelines on this. Although precedents are not required to be followed, I am sympathetic with the Wikipedia:Precedents essay. With that in mind, I searched the archives and found a nearly 14-year old discussion titled "Dealing with Bad Faith objections on controversial topics". While the debate that led to this was over religion, it seems relevant given the separation of church and state, but can religion and politics really be separated?

The dispute was over the Creation-evolution controversy article, which has since moved to Rejection of evolution by religious groups. The article was delisted per this GAR as explained by the reviewer HERE and on the revewer's talk. The {{Article history}} on Talk:Rejection of evolution by religious groups shows that the article was listed on January 22, 2006, delisted on October 4, 2006, and apparently no attempts have been made to relist it after that.

I noticed that Result: 6 delist to 4 keep, no consensus was added by another editor (not the reviewer) when they archived the discussion. I'm not sure whether the reviewer counted votes, but this edit demonstrates the view that no consensus in a GAR results in delisting rather than maintaining the status quo, which is counter to the view expressed by some in this GAR. I think that's right; Good Article Reviews simply confirm that an article still passes the criteria. If a first time assessment would fail criterion 5 if there was no consensus, then I don't see how a reassessment should have a different outcome with no consensus. I haven't seen anything in the instructions supporting that view.

I'll make a quick search now for more, confirming precedents. – wbm1058 (talk) 16:56, 28 June 2020 (UTC)

I just confirmed that the stability criterion hasn't substantially changed since March 2006 so the above precedent still seems relevant.

Another point of contention in the discussion revolves around the Wikipedia:Stable version supplement to the page protection policy. An argument was made that you can not get more stable than a fully protected article, which was rejected by another participant with the rationale that if an article so poorly failed to meet the stability criterion that an administrator had to forcibly cause it to be stable, then it isn't truly stable. I concur with this latter view. If one should wait at least two weeks to confirm an article's instability, arguably most high-profile articles will always pass the criterion because administrators will not allow instability to persist for that long before protecting the article. It makes no sense to have a criterion that can never fail. The rationale for protection should be examined. If it's protected due to vandalism, then it's still stable for GAR purposes. But if it's protected due to edit warring, then it's not. Per Wikipedia:Stable version § Inappropriate usage it is inappropriate usage to invoke this argument to avoid a delisting for instability. An open request for comment over a proposed "significant" change in content, i.e. a change that will have a "noticeable or major effect" on the article, should be viewed as a sign of instability for as long as the RfC remains open.

I realize this is problematic for articles of this type. A possible solution might be to introduce the concept of a "last good version" or a new indicator showing that the good article "may be outdated and is currently undergoing review of possible content changes". wbm1058 (talk) 20:32, 28 June 2020 (UTC)

════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════════

I suppose the sections below may be considered as equivalent to the workshop page of an Arbitration Committee case. LOL wbm1058 (talk) 15:10, 21 June 2020 (UTC)

Summary-style split

For 3b, I'd like to point out that I did propose a split which ended up happening, but discussion about the prose to keep in the article went nowhere. It's been brought up again, but that discussion also went nowhere. As much as I want to help, I realize that I have almost no splitting/summarizing experience and I'm terrible at summarizing things. Username⁶⁸⁹² 02:41, 21 June 2020 (UTC)

Lead section

• 1b fails - it is a campaign speech with all controversy omitted and reads like a whitewashed presentation by a candidate during an election year. Remove some of the cruft and candidate marketing from the lead, add the most notable controversies per MOS, otherwise it clearly fails 1b. MOSLEAD states (my bold underline): The lead should stand on its own as a concise overview of the article's topic. It should identify the topic, establish context, explain why the topic is notable, and summarize the most important points, including any prominent controversies. I will also note that tags regarding NPOV were wrongfully removed from this article, and I was not going to get into an edit war over it. It is not a neutral article for the reasons I have already mentioned, and it is highly protected - again another fail. Also, the independent reassessment involved community input so I don't see any difference between the independent community reassessment and the community reassessment except for a difference in the two editors who called for comments. ^Atsme _Talk 📧 13:31, 21 June 2020 (UTC)

I am not seeing much support for failing 1b from the !voters. Most of the "delist" sentiment I see is based on failing 5, and perhaps 4. Let's address your two relevant points separately. wbm1058 (talk) 15:10, 21 June 2020 (UTC)

Length

The lead now has five paragraphs; the manual of style suggests reducing this to four. What would you remove? Feel free to either strike through words to omit using <s>...</s> tags or rewrite it below. wbm1058 (talk) 15:10, 21 June 2020 (UTC)

---

Username6892's opinion for removals, Removals Username6892 is less sure about, Username6892's opinion for additions

Joseph Robinette Biden Jr. (/ˌrɒbɪˈnɛt ˈbaɪdən/; born November 20, 1942) is an American politician who served as the 47th vice president of the United States from 2009 to 2017 and represented Delaware in the U.S. Senate from 1973 to 2009. A member of the Democratic Party, Biden is the presumptive Democratic nominee for president of the United States in the 2020 election. This is Biden’s third run for president after he unsuccessfully sought the Democratic nomination in 1988 and 2008.

Biden was raised in Scranton, Pennsylvania, and New Castle County, Delaware. He studied at the University of Delaware before receiving his law degree from Syracuse University. He became a lawyer in 1969 and was elected to the New Castle County Council in 1970. He was elected to the U.S. Senate from Delaware in 1972 when he became the sixth-youngest senator in American history. Biden was reelected six times and was the fourth-most senior senator when he resigned to assume the vice presidency in 2009.

As a senator, Biden was a longtime member and eventually chairman of the Foreign Relations Committee. He opposed the Gulf War in 1991 but advocated for U.S. and NATO intervention in the Bosnian War in 1994 and 1995, expanding NATO in the 1990s, and the 1999 bombing of Serbia during the Kosovo War. He argued and voted for the resolution authorizing the Iraq War in 2002 but opposed the surge of U.S. troops in 2007. He has also served as chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee, dealing with issues related to drug policy, crime prevention, and civil liberties, as well as the contentious U.S. Supreme Court nominations of Robert Bork and Clarence Thomas. Biden led the efforts to pass the Violent Crime Control and Law Enforcement Act and the Violence Against Women Act.

In 2008, Biden was the running mate of Democratic presidential nominee Barack Obama. As vice president, he oversaw infrastructure spending to counteract the Great Recession and helped formulate U.S. policy toward Iraq through the withdrawal of U.S. troops in 2011. His negotiations with congressional Republicans helped the Obama administration pass legislation including the Tax Relief, Unemployment Insurance Reauthorization, and Job Creation Act of 2010, which resolved a taxation deadlock; the Budget Control Act of 2011, which resolved that year's debt ceiling crisis; and the American Taxpayer Relief Act of 2012, which addressed the impending fiscal cliff. In the aftermath of the Sandy Hook Elementary School shooting, Biden led the Gun Violence Task Force, created to address the causes of gun violence in the United States. Obama and Biden were reelected in 2012.

In October 2015, after months of speculation, Biden announced he would not seek the presidency in the 2016 election. In January 2017, Obama awarded Biden the Presidential Medal of Freedom with distinction. After completing his second term as vice president, Biden joined the faculty of the University of Pennsylvania, where he was named the Benjamin Franklin Professor of Presidential Practice. He announced his 2020 candidacy for president on April 25, 2019, joining a large field of Democratic candidates pursuing the party nomination. Throughout 2019, he was widely regarded as the party's frontrunner. After briefly falling behind Bernie Sanders after poor showings in the first three state contests, Biden won the South Carolina primary decisively, and, several center-left moderate candidates dropped out of the race and endorsed him before Super Tuesday. Biden went on to win 18 of the next 26 contests. With the suspension of Sanders's campaign on April 8, 2020, Biden became the Democratic Party's presumptive nominee for the presidential election. On June 9, 2020, Biden met the 1,991-delegate threshold needed in order to secure the party's nomination.

References

References

References

Prominent controversies

What specific controversies should be mentioned in the lead? These should be controversies that are already covered in the article body.

There is no consensus for including a specific statement in the lead of Joe Biden sexual assault allegation. If attempts to add controversies to the lead of this article have been reverted, a similar discussion should be initiated to get a consensus to include them. wbm1058 (talk) 15:10, 21 June 2020 (UTC)

(edit conflict)

• Response to Wbm1058 and (1b) regarding controversies:

1. the Tara Reade RfC close states: this RfC is about how much detail about that allegation to give in the lead. A consensus has not been reached as to how much so the dispute is ongoing. Regardless, that is not the only controversy as the following will evidence:
2. Politico and other RS have published Biden's controversial ‘you ain’t black’ comment, which belongs in the lead per MOS;
3. the Vox article about Joe Biden’s controversial comments about segregationists and wealthy donors, explained;
4. the NYTimes article, Biden’s ‘Breakfast Club’ Controversy Shows What His Rivals Already Knew;
5. Time article,

Top 10 Joe Biden Gaffes - Throughout his decades of public service, the former Senator and current Vice President has earned a reputation for often saying the wrong thing at the wrong time;

• And there are many more. Not even one notable controversy is mentioned in the lead, few are in the body text, and there should be several. Sorry, but it FAILS NPOV on many counts. ^Atsme _Talk 📧 14:39, 21 June 2020 (UTC)

I agree, but the word "gaffes" makes it sound pro-Trump. Other editors may or may not think so, but that's just what I think. Thanks, Thanoscar21_{talk, contribs} 01:10, 23 June 2020 (UTC)

Even Bushisms, with their own article, didn't make it to George W. Bush's lead. I don't think Biden's gaffes are more significant. starship.paint (talk) 15:36, 4 July 2020 (UTC)

• @Atsme:, a very recent RfC discussion (which you participated in) resulted in consensus not to have "you ain't black" in the body. You are free to start a another RfC for a new consensus, but to plainly assert that it belongs in the lead is simply ignoring the current consensus. starship.paint (talk) 15:36, 4 July 2020 (UTC)

  @Starship.paint: Just for clarification that is not a RFC. That was a discussion that was open about a week and a half. PackMecEng (talk) 15:40, 4 July 2020 (UTC)

  @PackMecEng: - you're absolutely right. I apologize for my error. Thank you for the correction, I have edited my post accordingly. starship.paint (talk) 15:42, 4 July 2020 (UTC)

The last few reverts

Muboshgu, you just reverted 2 hours of diligent research and editing to include material the lead and body that clearly belongs, and you used a misleading edit summary of RECENTISM to justify removal when the cited NYTimes is dated 2019, a year ago: (this wording needs to be discussed, too much WP:RECENTISM here) which doesn't even apply to the material. Your other revert also included a misleading edit summary (no consensus to include Reade in the lead); i.e., if you are referring to the RfC close I recently challenged because there was not a consensus to censor the Reade allegation in its entirety from the lead - only specific language was at issue - and if you review the actual RfC statement, it will confirm what I just said about specific wording (which I was careful to avoid). There was not an RfC or decision to censor Reade's allegation in its entirety. See the discussion at User talk:S Marshall#Joe Biden close. S Marshall was very thoughtful, polite and quite willing to help by asking for further input at WP:AN. I have been working on the Biden GAR reassessment with Wbm1058, and Username6892 among others, but your instantaneous removal of content for no valid reason is why the article was demoted, and it looks like it will stay that way. Attempts to whitewash and protect the lead from all controversy is noncompliant with NPOV, a core content policy. I do wish you would self-revert because it does take on the appearance of WP:OWN when the same few editors keep removing notable, well-sourced criticism from the lead. ^Atsme _Talk 📧 19:57, 24 June 2020 (UTC)

Atsme, everything here runs on consensus and I know of none that supports including any mention of Tara Reade in the lead. In fact, my recollection of the last time it was talked about here was explicit in keeping her out of it. I can't speak to discussions about this page that aren't happening here, on this talk page, the place it should be discussed. The RECENTISM is about the present recollections of the Thomas/Hill hearings, and it's not the best tag to put on, I should have said that the way it was done was to include too much detail that is not appropriate summary style for the lead. And I stand by the revert. – Muboshgu (talk) 20:03, 24 June 2020 (UTC)

WP also runs on bold editing, Muboshgu, so what is your policy-based reasoning for reverting my work? ^Atsme _Talk 📧 21:51, 24 June 2020 (UTC)

To expand on my comment, here's what was added to the lead about Anita Hill: Then Senator Biden presided over the senate confirmation hearings for Clarence Thomas when Anita Hill came forward with sexual harassment allegations against the SCOTUS nominee. In April 2019, the New York Times said Biden “knew Anita Hill was going to be an issue for him” in his 2020 presidential campaign. Biden attempted to reach out to Hill with deep regret and an apology for what happened to her. In response, Hill told The Times that his call left her "feeling deeply unsatisfied", and she was not convinced that he has taken “full responsibility for his conduct at the hearings — or for the harm he caused other victims of sexual harassment and gender violence.” This is fine detail for the body but much too much for the lead that you said you're trying to cut down to size. The commentary on Hill being relevant to the 2020 campaign is conjecture and totally irrelevant. We should mention Hill in the lead, but in one sentence. – Muboshgu (talk) 20:13, 24 June 2020 (UTC)

Ok, I conflated Talk:Joe_Biden/Archive_12#Compromise proposal May 10 with this RfC "... alleged that Biden pushed her against a wall and penetrated her with his fingers". So where is the RfC that determined all mention of Reade and all notable criticism should be censored from the lead? As for RECENTISM, no - Hill said what she said in response to Biden's apology last year and it belongs in the lead, and the WEIGHT of what happened should absolutely be presented with accuracy not brevity as if swept under the rug. That leaves me with the impression that it may be stemming from Systemic bias in Wikipedia, and that has to stop. Your reason for leaving it out now - "excessive detail" - is quite a very weak argument. Facts are facts - quotes are quotes - but censorship is against WP:NOTCENSORED policy. Also, WP:IDONTLIKEIT is not a valid reason to revert something that important and notable from the lead. ^Atsme _Talk 📧 20:44, 24 June 2020 (UTC)

MOS:LEADNO is the right policy. It's not "I don't like it", it's that that's too much on Hill in the lead (and I've said she should be mentioned in the lead), and that the Reade allegations are not significant enough to be in the lead. You and I had a back and forth on that a few weeks ago I seem to recall. It's fine for the body, not for the lead. – Muboshgu (talk) 21:59, 24 June 2020 (UTC)

No, you are mistaken because

1. MOS:LEADNO is simply a guideline, not a policy.
2. WP:NPOV carries far more weight because NPOV is a core content policy.
3. WP:BLPPUBLIC is a policy that clearly states: If an allegation or incident is noteworthy, relevant, and well documented, it belongs in the article—even if it is negative and the subject dislikes all mention of it.
4. MOS:LEAD is a guideline which clearly states (my bold underline): It should identify the topic, establish context, explain why the topic is notable, and summarize the most important points, including any prominent controversies.
5. Reverting important content from the lead for no policy-based reason actually makes the revert noncompliant with policy is WP:TEND.

How can you say the Reade allegations are not significant enough for the lead when they are significant enough to have a standalone article? How can you say the Anita Hill comment after Biden apologized is not significant? No, your argument is not policy based, and you should self-revert. If you thought it was too much detail, then explain all the detail that comprises 5 paragraphs in that lead without one valid criticism about his behavior with regards to women. Now you're bringing in another problem as I stated below regarding systemic bias. Are you comfortable with your position if this elevates? ^Atsme _Talk 📧 22:22, 24 June 2020 (UTC)

I'm comfortable that the Hill detail is excessive and the Reade bit doesn't belong. I'm waiting for more feedback from others to develop consensus. You accused me of OWN and TEND in your edit summary, which I do not appreciate. I'm not the one making edits without consensus, a policy you bypassed on a contentious article. – Muboshgu (talk) 22:56, 24 June 2020 (UTC)

Whoa...back up, Muboshgu - following are my exact words about OWN: I do wish you would self-revert because it does take on the appearance of WP:OWN when the same few editors keep removing notable, well-sourced criticism from the lead. And in #5 regarding TEND, I said: Reverting important content from the lead for no policy-based reason actually makes the revert noncompliant with policy which is WP:TEND. You accused me of making edits without getting consensus first, saying that I bypassed a policy? I've asked you to provide that policy. I reviewed some of the edit history for this article, and I'm not seeing any consensus-first discussions on this TP that align with the multiple edits of added material. I also see alot of revert activity that primarily involves notable, well-sourced controversial material (NYTimes, NPR, Politico), such as this revert where you removed the entire section Stances on racial issues and stated in your edit summary: (→‎Stances on racial issues: fails the WP:10YT. Harris scored a good 24 hour news cycle. Where is her campaign now?) Nothing in that section failed WP:10YT. Biden's position on race dates back to his early senate days, and it is neither new nor is it going away anytime soon. His past will continue to be brought up throughout his entire campaign as it has in the past, and it will be noted by historians in the future. I just provided evidence of you making two reverts with two misrepresentations in the edit summaries. The edit history for this article shows a pattern of consistent removal of notable controversial material by certain editors while keeping only positive material, and it makes the article read more like a campaign ad than a BLP for a presidential candidate, see WP:TEND. The latter has made this article unstable and noncompliant with NPOV, which is a big part of the reason it was demoted at GAR. Add to that, DS and 1RR editing restrictions, and we have editors getting bogged down in interminable discussions whihc make it nearly impossible to restore the reverted material without calling a lengthy RfC. Considering the pattern of reverts demonstrated in the edit history, the sheer number of RfCs we'd have to call brings Abuse of process to mind. Let me know when you find the policy that you claim I bypassed by adding material per WP:BOLD without getting consensus first. ^Atsme _Talk 📧 02:16, 25 June 2020 (UTC)

Excessive detail in the lead is very much a valid concern and NOT a weak argument. I supported the inclusion of the Reade allegations in the body in a previous RfC, by the way. If you wish to include it in the lead, then the WP:ONUS is on those who support the inclusion to gain consensus. Please avoid reading into the behavior of another editor and turning it into an allegation of censorship and bias. It is not helpful in the consensus-building process. Thank you. --GoneIn60 (talk) 22:17, 24 June 2020 (UTC)

References

• The version on the right is superior, IMO: [24], as it avoids excessive level of detail in the lead. In general, arguments about 2 hours of diligent research and editing are not helpful to make a case for inclusion, as we are all volunteers and are free to spend our time however we wish. --K.e.coffman (talk) 00:57, 25 June 2020 (UTC)
• This is not appropriate for the lead per WP:UNDUE. Biden's conduct with respect to Justice Thomas' confirmation nearly 30 years ago is simply not a significant point. - MrX 🖋 03:12, 25 June 2020 (UTC)
• I share MrX's concerns about WP:DUE weight. The version before these most recent edits was more balanced and a cleaner summary of the article. RedHotPear (talk) 07:11, 25 June 2020 (UTC)
• The Anita Hill controversy is not significant enough for the lead. Anything with Reade is so controversial on-wiki, it is essentially bound to go through an RfC. starship.paint (talk) 15:46, 4 July 2020 (UTC)

Add sentence to "Family deaths" section

I suggest adding the following sentence to the end of the "Family deaths" section: "He later apologized for these claims." And add the following reference: https://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2019/01/25/joe-biden-2019-profile-grief-beau-car-accident-224178 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.213.144.235 (talk) 10:01, 11 July 2020 (UTC)

Could you be specific with the "he," it took me a second read through to understand what you meant via a skim. I have been on here for a different issue and I was told that most editors see this page as too large anyway so keep that in mind as well. Over all I don't think your addition is bad in and of itself but not sure how relevant it is or whether you could generate justification to add more to the page. Bgrus22 (talk) 08:00, 12 July 2020 (UTC)

What about: "Biden later apologized for these claims.", referenced by the previous mentioned reference. I think the current text is misleading, because there's a difference between someone accusing someone else without basis, versus someone first accusing someone else without basis, but later apologizing for it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.213.150.153 (talk) 07:32, 13 July 2020 (UTC)

Actually, that whole sentence about the drunk driver thing isn't biographically significant at all. -- Scjessey (talk) 12:59, 13 July 2020 (UTC)

I would like to comment that the "Family deaths" section also appears on the article for the United States Senate career of Joe Biden. I see two options:

1. We add that information to the Senate career article, but not this one because it is too long.
2. We omit the drunk driving accusation from both articles. Right now, the drunk driving claim is still in the Senate career article.

FunnyMath (talk) 17:00, 13 July 2020 (UTC)

What is undue weight for one article may not be so for the other. For this article, it is biographically insignificant. Whether it is noteworthy enough for the other article is a matter for the talk page there. -- Scjessey (talk) 17:39, 13 July 2020 (UTC)

I added it to the other article. But the remove option is also fine for me if someone prefers that. 79.213.150.153 (talk) 21:42, 13 July 2020 (UTC)

Presidential Campaign Gaffes

The Gaffes and dicey remarks made by vice president Biden during this campaign have been news worthy and would appear to merit mention on the wiki page. For instance the "you aint black" statement by him was met with wide criticism. Bgrus22 (talk) 00:53, 27 June 2020 (UTC)

This article is not a campaign (for or against) platform. El_C 00:55, 27 June 2020 (UTC)

@Bgrus22: - there's space at Joe Biden 2020 presidential campaign. Only sustained controversies warrant mention here. starship.paint (talk) 15:50, 4 July 2020 (UTC)

@Starship.paint: and @El C: Thanks for linking the campaign page, but considering that the gaffes have been linked to a so called "cognitive decline" that his opponents and skeptics point towards regularly. I'm not saying this should be portrayed in a biased way, but if this page makes reference to "Allegations of inappropriate physical contact...with women at public events" and can cite how he was "accused of withholding $1 billion in aid from Ukraine" while retaining a neutral tone then the page should be able to highlight this continued and prominent criticism of the vice president as well. It shouldn't take more than a line or two to explain he has denied any health problems and that his opponents use these gaffes as an indication of some underlying health condition along with jumping on them as indicating racial insensitivity which he has also denied. Like the others it is simply a case of claim, possibly an example like the most prominent, ie "you ain't black," and Vice President Biden statement refuting the claims.Bgrus22 (talk) 23:13, 5 July 2020 (UTC)

Bgrus22, reiterating any concern of a "cognitive decline" without concrete evidence is at best a borderline WP:BLP violation we will not tolerate. – Muboshgu (talk) 23:20, 5 July 2020 (UTC)

Muboshgu How exactly would stating that several gaffes have occurred, some of which becoming notable events in the news cycle not be evident or borderline? Similarly I am not saying we push a narrative that the vice president is ill in any way, I am stating that just as the page highlights allegations of inappropriate physical contact and an allegation of misconduct with the Ukrainian government we could add the prominent allegation of "cognitive decline" that he has already denied and state there is no factual basis for the allegation. I do not see how that is outside of the scope of fully covering an issue in a neutral manner. I am not stating we should include something like the "false statements" list from the campaign page since I do not think it has borderline relevance with regards to the depiction of the former vice president; however the notoriety of this issue is obvious. The way I see it is that we can either include this in a neutral format as other unverified or disproved controversies have been, which would be within wiki guidelines, or we can remove all allegations made against the vice president that have been proven inaccurate or are in limbo, referring to the Ukraine and inappropriate physical contacts respectively. If I am misunderstanding wiki guidelines, however, please inform me; I am only seeking to better wikipedia by the standards set forth within it and from my understanding of the rules it would seem that this change is definitely tolerable.Bgrus22 (talk) 08:58, 6 July 2020 (UTC)

Muboshgu I have had someone explain to me why we should not include the cognitive decline portion and I recognize that as borderline now, but that still does not address the notable presence in VP Joe Biden's gaffes which could be describe in a neutral manner without adding narrative driven attacks like "cognitive decline" Bgrus22 (talk) 17:50, 6 July 2020 (UTC)

Bgrus22, good, I'm glad to hear that. How are Biden's gaffes biographically significant? He has had a stutter to deal with throughout his life, and we include that in the article. What else merits inclusion here? – Muboshgu (talk) 18:07, 6 July 2020 (UTC)

Muboshgu Like I said the "you aint black" gaffe would be the most obvious one. They warranted being mentioned in his time in the senate in general terms, so there is precedent for this, also gaffes are not the same as a stutter as seen by the previous example. Considering that the page only depicts the gaffes as being prominent in his years in the senate I would add that they have become a defining feature of his campaign for presidency, with him going as far to claim he is a "gaffe machine." Bgrus22 (talk) 08:36, 8 July 2020 (UTC)

Bgrus22, "you ain't black" got play in the 24 hour news cycle, but what lasting impact does it have? It's been mostly forgotten about. We don't need to add negative things for WP:FALSEBALANCE. – Muboshgu (talk) 19:25, 8 July 2020 (UTC)

Muboshgu It has been in the news cycle for much longer than 24 hours and remains in memory. It was given attention by the founder of BET almost 2 weeks ago and has been revisited today by Kanye West. It has been a key criticisms from both sides of the aisle and the rallying point along which they both mark problems in the former Vice Presidents race relations. While it in and of itself may not be an especially amazing event, it is an example of gaffes continuing throughout the campaign and being used to symbolize historic issues of the Vice President's career. I would say critisism via the gaffes are as large an aspect of attacks on VP Biden as criticisms of hyperbole and bravado are for President Trump. With regards to false balance, I do not believe that stating this has been a continued point of criticism for his campaign or stating that it has been used as a rally point by both figures left and right of him would be a fringe opinion considering how that one gaffe in particular has been treated. Bgrus22 (talk) 06:35, 9 July 2020 (UTC)

We should also catalog every lie Donald Trump has ever told on his BLP. Deal? soibangla (talk) 23:33, 5 July 2020 (UTC)

soibangla I didn't say to state all of the gaffes but I have no problem with the President Trump page having a subsection on "false statements" as it currently does under public profile. Given that it exists should I take this to mean you support adding the small addition I have recommended?Bgrus22 (talk) 08:31, 6 July 2020 (UTC)

What happens at Donald Trump has no bearing on what happens here. "False statements" are a defining characteristic of Donald Trump, so his BLP has a section on them, but that is most certainly not the case for Joe Biden, with whom false statements are a rarity and not notable. -- Scjessey (talk) 14:31, 6 July 2020 (UTC)

Scjessey I did not bring up the other page originally someone else did and I simply stated that the page they referenced already does what they requested of it. As for the false statements I agree, the Vice President's campaign has not been characterized by such statements in the same way as president Trump and I said above that I would not include Vice President Biden's false statements for that reason, but I would say that the gaffes have been a running occurrence with each individual gaffe gaining varying levels of sustained coverage which is why I would view them as comparable to President Trump's false statements and therefore be worth adding. I hope that clears up the above and that I can count on you to support this small addition in a way that would have no underlying narrative in favor or against the VP Biden. P.S. it would definetly not include any of the cognitive decline language I used above since I have since had that explained to me as not having a professional diagnosis and therefore truly borderline material Bgrus22 (talk) 17:46, 6 July 2020 (UTC)

@Bgrus22: Sorry, but I would not support the addition you propose. While it is true Biden has made the odd verbal gaffe (many of which are related to his well documented stutter), their prominence owes much to concerted efforts by his political opponents to make the proverbial mountain out of a molehill. The "you ain't black" comment was grossly overinflated in the conservative media, but despite that it was still forgotten after 48 hours. -- Scjessey (talk) 11:02, 7 July 2020 (UTC)

OK, let’s add Trump Fans Manufacture Biden ‘Gaffe’ By Falsely Claiming He Said ‘I’m Joe Biden’s Husband’ soibangla (talk) 17:52, 6 July 2020 (UTC)

@Soibangla: I personally had never heard of this till now but if you think it was a newsworthy event go for it, add it to Donald Trump Jr.'s page while youre add it since its a shame he took advantage of the audio glitch. Bgrus22 (talk) 08:42, 8 July 2020 (UTC)

Bgrus22 - I will comment that attempts to discuss Donald Trump's mental health have thus far failed to gain consensus for inclusion. I believe that was so due to a lack of diagnosis by professionals who have actually examined him, in spite of the many comments by professionals who have not personally examined him. The same may very well occur here for "cognitive decline". starship.paint (talk) 12:04, 6 July 2020 (UTC)

Starship.paint I hadnt considered that, but youre 100% right with regards to those allegations and I can not in good conscious vote to add those allegations to either page, they do seem irresponsible and narrative driven. That being said, would the same apply to highlighting gaffes? If we include them as simply being an aspect of the campaign without mentioning "cognitive decline" it could be a simple sub point without any narrative tinge on mental disease. Thanks Starship, youre probably my favorite person on this talk page right now! :) Bgrus22 (talk) 17:39, 6 July 2020 (UTC)

Bgrus22 - we do have a section on Talk:Joe Biden#Gaffes - is that not sufficient? What do you think is missing from there? I appreciate the sentiment, but I would caution you not to rush to judgment. starship.paint (talk) 00:37, 8 July 2020 (UTC)

Starship.paint I would update gaffes to include more recent examples if its separated thematically or include a portion in campaign if the page is set up temporally. Bgrus22 (talk) 08:28, 8 July 2020 (UTC)

@Bgrus22: - it's up to you to prove that any individual gaffe has lasting significance. Or, if the gaffe is very recent, if it spawns several (let's say five) articles examining Biden's overall history of making gaffes, then that would be an indicator of significance. starship.paint (talk) 13:20, 9 July 2020 (UTC)

Which is impossible, because it has no lasting significance at all. It's laughable that this is still being discussed. -- Scjessey (talk) 15:49, 9 July 2020 (UTC)

@Starship.paint: and @Scjessey: Ive already demonstrated above that just one of the gaffes has remained in the news cycle over a 2 week period. But here is a list if that will settle things. A NYT article from 3 weeks ago claiming that the Trump campaign wished to use the gaffes as a line of attack (1). A NYP article from 2 weeks ago with Steve Guest, RNC rapid response director, claiming that it is emblematic of different standards by the media (2). Seeing as this is tedious I'll be quicker with the rest. Back in may NBC used the you aint black gaffe as an example of why African American youth are hesitant to support the VP's campaign (3) and was joined by WaPo and CNN earlier that week (4&5). 2 weeks ago the Hill wrote about how the founder of BET criticized the VP's racially charged gaffe (6). And to give some room for safety USA today covered the VP Bidens relationship with Frican American youth yesterday, using his "you aint black" as an example of tension (7) while Kanye, an individual prominent as a cultural leader and posturing for a potential run, was described in a forbes article as using said gaffe as grounds for criticizing VP Biden on his race relations (8). This goes as far back as December of 2018 when CNN reported on VP Biden stating he is a gaffe machine (9). That should demonstrate that his gaffes been covered extensively over a wide period of time and deserve to be mentioned, not listed or used as criticism but acknowledged as still occurring and being commented on; something we should be able to say in a neutral manner. Bgrus22 (talk) 00:59, 10 July 2020 (UTC)

Nobody agrees with you on this. In fact your linked article up top does not even call it a gaffe. Time to move on. SPECIFICO talk 01:31, 10 July 2020 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Gaffes are ALREADY COVERED. This one will ABSOLUTELY NOT have any effect on Biden's LIFE STORY, which this article covers. Time to let it go. -- Scjessey (talk) 01:33, 10 July 2020 (UTC)

• @Bgrus22: - your provided NYT source in fact indicates that (a) Biden has been making much fewer gaffes and (b) Biden's "ain't black" gaffe wasn't significant: Mr. Trump’s campaign took comfort in the expectation that Joseph R. Biden Jr.’s penchant for gaffes would at least offer them dependable fodder for attack. The pandemic, and Mr. Biden’s play-it-safe campaign, however, have starved them of even that ... Mr. Biden’s “ain’t black” gaffe, just days old, was out of the news. As for (1) the New York Post is a publication of questionable reality. For (2) to (8), your descriptions highlight that this gaffe was related to racial relations, instead of a history of making gaffes. It seems that if this is to be included, it should be in somewhere which discusses racial issues. (9) is irrelevant to this current gaffe. starship.paint (talk) 04:28, 10 July 2020 (UTC)

@Starship.paint: If you want to add a single specific gaffe we can discuss that. I would say that that one in particular has been prevalent in discussions surrounding race relations, but that cumulatively these articles indicated discussions both attacking and defending the Vice President. I am not trying to show we should criticize him, but that we should include that this is a talking point that has surrounded him. If a news source goes out of its way to talk about it, it must mean it was in the news long enough to draw attention. As for the New York Post article, it is relevant because it is citing a spokesperson for the RNC pointing to the gaffes, not because the news site itself is providing some material of worth. If you'd rather we could just reference tweets from celebrities and quotes from politicians, but as I understand it Wikipedia prefers but does not require secondary or tertiary sources. Overall it still sounds like we agree that there should be an addition somewhere and I am glad we can agree on that. By the way, I recently realized we spoke on the Antifa talk page a while ago where you explained to me a lot about wikipedia guidelines and ensuring neutrality, so glad to see you're doing well Starship! Bgrus22 (talk) 04:36, 10 July 2020 (UTC)

@Bgrus22: - thanks for the good wishes. I'm not the one asking to add something, you are. Thus, it is up to you to first propose exactly what you want added and where it goes, while also, you should be substantiating why should we do it. If a spokesperson for the RNC points to the gaffe, is that necessarily meeting the standard to be featured in his personal article? I don't think so, honestly. I do think it meets the standard for the campaign article. Also note that this article, according to previous editors here, is too long. Now, of course we still can add things, but we must be careful. It's still a bit murky what you want added and where you want it to go. You have to be decisive, propose the exact text and location. starship.paint (talk) 08:39, 10 July 2020 (UTC)

@Starship.paint: Still teaching me so much about this site :) I was honestly hoping for more of a communal solution because I know I am a biased individual and not as experienced of an editor. If I had to pick a section to add to I would place it before the sentence starting with "in June of 2020" inside of Campaign under the 2020 campaign. I would write something akin to "During Biden's campaign, the former Vice-President made several gaffes which were given attention by the media and his opponents. Most prominent of these was a statement Vice-President Biden made during an interview on The Breakfast Club radio show in May 2020 where he stated, "If you have a problem figuring out whether you're for me or Trump, then you ain't black." He later apologized for his "cavalier" remarks but several figures ranging from Kanye West to the Founder of BET used this an example of racial insensitivity towards the African American vote." Im guessing this needs to be edited significantly but it would be in line with the additional articles I mentioned and the wiki page on his campaign. Bgrus22 (talk) 04:14, 12 July 2020 (UTC)

• @Bgrus22: - Regardless of your bias, you should be proposing something. I copyedited your text, below, which is not an endorsement. Now you'll need compile sources for two things. (1) To prove that there was indeed a pattern of significant gaffes during his campaign, instead of just one. (2) To prove that his "black" gaffe was very significant (the more sources coming some time after the gaffe, the better). Also, one other person other than West or Johnson would be great. Preferably not a Republican. starship.paint (talk) 06:48, 12 July 2020 (UTC)

During Biden's campaign, he made several gaffes which were given attention by the media and his opponents. Most prominent of these was a statement he made during an interview on The Breakfast Club radio show in May 2020 where he stated, "If you have a problem figuring out whether you're for me or Trump, then you ain't black." He later apologized for his "cavalier" remarks, but several figures ranging from Kanye West to Robert L. Johnson, the co-founder of BET, used this an example of racial insensitivity towards African American voters.

@Starship.paint: thank you for the help, could I simply state that the above sources I gave are the ones I would use? Im not sure how to cite a source on the talk page if im being honest. As for a 3rd prominent non-republican figure apparently Briahna Joy Gray, former press sec for Bernie Sanders 2020 campaign, wrote an article on the topic alongside Nina Turner, another prominent Sanders supporter, spoke out on the topic as well. Bgrus22 (talk) 07:56, 12 July 2020 (UTC)

@Bgrus22: - Sanders supporters are the exact opposite of what I would want, because naturally, they would criticize Biden. If this incident were truly significant, there should be criticism from non-Republicans and non-Sanders people. could I simply state that the above sources I gave are the ones I would use - sure. It's just my opinion that to persuasively make your case, it would be better for you to go through the extra effort of re-compiling the sources. Would you really want everyone to go find the sources themselves above? You think that would be persuasive? starship.paint (talk) 08:09, 12 July 2020 (UTC)

@Starship.paint: as always you are right, I will compile them again. Also sanders supporters would be a fair source since sanders had dropped out of the presidential campaign for around a month before this interview so the comments they make would not be supporting any active campaigns but would just be indicative of criticisms from the left side of the aisle. These sources to show general media coverage of this particular gaffe as an example: NBC, WaPo, CNN, and USA today; of gaffes in general: CNN and NYT; and of specific people attacking him: Kanye, BET's Johnson, Nina Turner, and Joy Gray. Oh and the "cavalier remark" apology alongside African American republican Tim Scott in NPR. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bgrus22 (talk • contribs)

@Bgrus22: - that WaPo article is an opinion piece, replace it with a news article. That Nina source is Twitter, replace it with a reliable source which isn't an opinion piece. That CNN source is from 2018, it's not relevant, replace it. We already know Biden makes gaffes, this article was before he announced his 2020 campaign. Then go read [[25]] and figure out how to write an RFC. starship.paint (talk) 11:48, 13 July 2020 (UTC)

@Starship.paint: some quick questions why would the direct example of the criticism not be better than say fox news or vox covering the criticism in the case of a tweet, that seems like a no-brainer isnt it? For instance we quote interviews with people, not a commentary on the interview. The campaign section reaches as far back as 2016 temporally and makes references to 2018 as well so an article from before 2020 should be fine when describing the campaign although I am starting to see that the community shares my feelings that 2 gaffe sections would be strange, this is why below I said a possible section might make more sense since it would not be bounded by time and would not need to be expanded much more than saying it happened in his senate career and it has happened in his presidential campaign. As for the WaPo article it is an opinion piece but it is written by Paul Waldman a writer with a credible background in the field no? If not I think I see how you would recommend rephrasing this addition as being about that specific comment rather than gaffes in general. Thank you for all of your tutelage! Bgrus22 (talk) 22:25, 13 July 2020 (UTC)

This is not significant in Biden's long life story. It is not valid article content. SPECIFICO talk 06:57, 12 July 2020 (UTC)

@SPECIFICO: there is already a gaffe section for his senate history and this campaign and its developments have been much more prominent due to exposure to the media. Bgrus22 (talk) 07:32, 12 July 2020 (UTC)

No. SPECIFICO talk 07:39, 12 July 2020 (UTC)

@Bgrus22: You've now been trying desperately to get this non-notable event into this article for TWO WEEKS, despite virtually no support for the idea. Please read WP:PROPORTION for the reason why this content doesn't belong here, and please read WP:LISTEN for why you should stop arguing about it. -- Scjessey (talk) 18:38, 12 July 2020 (UTC)

Two weeks in which the media has published nothing about it. – Muboshgu (talk) 19:09, 12 July 2020 (UTC)

@Muboshgu: and @Scjessey: I would point out the Kanye west interview was within the week so that's not correct and the page already thinks gaffes in general are worth mentioning for his senate career, Im saying we should extend that to the present day. Bgrus22 (talk) 23:03, 12 July 2020 (UTC)

@Bgrus22: You aren't going to win any arguments by using Kanye West as a source. Like Nina Turner, he is essentially a political opponent. That's like seeking an unbiased opinion on Kim Jong-un from Dennis Rodman. The "Gaffes" section speaks to how he acquired his reputation for gaffes, rather than seeking to document them. In essence, what you are trying to do is pull it out of the senate career section and make it into a top level section so that you can put individual instances of "gaffes" into it. Sorry, but that would make it ludicrously out of proportion to its biographical significance. Your continued inability to accept the obvious consensus against you is become disruptive and I'm reaching the point where I may seek administrator guidance on this matter. -- Scjessey (talk) 12:55, 13 July 2020 (UTC)

@Scjessey: - Bgrus22 is within their rights to seek community-based consensus to trump local consensus. If their position is really so weak, then they stand little chance in succeeding, right? starship.paint (talk) 14:18, 13 July 2020 (UTC)

RfCs are valid when the talk page shows there is a reaonable and intractable dispute with reasoned arguments on both sides. That's not what happened here. This is disruptive WP:TE and it should stop. I suggest no further replies here unless a new and convincing argument is raised by OP or anyone else. SPECIFICO talk 14:43, 13 July 2020 (UTC)

An RfC is designed to break a deadlock when all other avenues have been exhausted. But here we have a single individual trying to make the same argument for over two weeks in the face of a largely unified opposition, not a deadlock, so an RfC would be inappropriate (and arguably disruptive). -- Scjessey (talk) 15:04, 13 July 2020 (UTC)

Even if an RFC is inappropriate, there are still other venues like Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons/Noticeboard. starship.paint (talk) 15:49, 13 July 2020 (UTC)

In the face of universal opposition to a proposal, shopping the argument to other forums is not appropriate either. -- Scjessey (talk) 17:40, 13 July 2020 (UTC)

So if I am understanding consensus thus far, the idea of gaffes in general would not be prominent enough because most of my sources deal with a particular gaffe/misspeak, so I would have to use more broad coverage like this source from NBC? I still feel like constraining gaffes to a particular time frame as the page currently does is not correct and I would make it a thematic section rather than a chronological subsection. As for the you aint black comment, I have demonstrated that it has a tendency to resurface since it was uttered, would that make it worth adding for the short term and then possibly deleting in the long term because notoriety does shift with time? Bgrus22 (talk) 22:14, 13 July 2020 (UTC)

No. It is not appropriate to add the "you ain't black" comment because of WP:WEIGHT, and the idea of having it in the article temporarily is a non-starter per WP:NOTNEWS. Biden gained something of a reputation for misspeaking during his Senate career, and that is why it is covered there, but the individual "gaffes" are not really notable and are certainly not biographically significant. This has now been explained to you multiple times in multiple ways. LET IT GO. -- Scjessey (talk) 12:36, 14 July 2020 (UTC)

Scjessey - it is my opinion that finding a second venue (or starting an RfC) should be always allowed, for any dispute regarding article content. Beyond that, it may be shopping, but I feel that there must always be at least one option for wider community input. I believe the noticeboards serve that exact purpose, to provide a second venue. starship.paint (talk) 09:46, 14 July 2020 (UTC)

I disagree. The standard forms of dispute resolution are in place for when there's a roughly equal number of editors on both "sides" of a debate and it becomes more or less deadlocked. If a single editor disagrees with a number of editors, that single editor should spend a reasonable amount of time convincing the other editors of their point of view before letting it go. We are WAY BEYOND "reasonable" and deep into "disruptive" now. When faced with overwhelming opposition, trying to take it to any other forum is basically forum shopping. I would discourage this type of behavior. -- Scjessey (talk) 12:36, 14 July 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 15 July 2020

Please put "under Barack Obama" after "47th vice president of the United States from 2009 to 2017" so we don't have to scratch our heads America's Next President (talk) 22:46, 15 July 2020 (UTC)

 Not done: The infobox says under 47th Vice President of the United States that he was president under Barack Obama. I think this change is redundant. Interstellarity (talk) 11:49, 16 July 2020 (UTC)

Discussion at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Racial views of Joe Biden

 You are invited to join the discussion at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Racial views of Joe Biden. - MrX 🖋 00:21, 17 July 2020 (UTC)

"ain't black" comment

I'm adding in the "ain't black" comment under the Donald Trump section, with a source to Politico. I understand that the inclusion of the comment may be seen as contentious, which is why I made this discussion page, but the comment got a lot of attention so I think it at least deserves a mention. If people oppose we can have a discussion to gain consensus. AlessandroTiandelli333 (talk) 02:57, 17 July 2020 (UTC)

No. This has been discussed, with strong consensus against inclusion. RedHotPear (talk) 04:52, 17 July 2020 (UTC)

User:AlessandroTiandelli333 Thanks for TALK, and I think this one was noted but not used. It only got story-du-jour coverage for a couple days. No persisting mention in press, no enduring impact to him. If I google it I can find it, but it’s got a pretty low hit number just on May 22 & 23, then some on his apology and a teeny bit when some critic mentions it. Cheers Markbassett (talk) 17:24, 17 July 2020 (UTC)

It hasn't received a lot of attention relative to overall news coverage of Joe Biden over the past 50 years. TFD (talk) 00:12, 18 July 2020 (UTC)

@AlessandroTiandelli333: In the discussion led by my suggestion I demonstrated that it had sustained coverage actually but was told that the page is already considered too long and in need of shortening. I would say that its a relevant enough topic but the way you present it is key here. Also you must remember that your citations and diction choice will be key in describing this issue. Bgrus22 (talk) 23:10, 20 July 2020 (UTC)

Suggestion for change to section about J. Biden's first Senate election victory.

It should be clear to all that the "Results of the 1972 U.S. Senate election in Delaware" image in the Early political career and family life (1966–1972) > 1972 U.S. Senate campaign section is a weak choice for an image for this article. There is no legend for the map to contextualize the colours of each county and the text in the 1972 U.S. Senate campaign provides enough of a description of the election. In any case, the link to see the breakdown of the election is one click away. I suggest this image be removed to make way for an image of the incumbent of that election, J. Caleb Boggs, whom Joseph Biden defeated. I am open to other suggestions.Ysfkdr (talk) 06:14, 17 August 2020 (UTC)

• I agree that the map isn't ideal, however, there is only one available image of Boggs and I'm not sure if it is from 1972. AN image of Biden campaigning would be perfect, but I don't know if one is available. ~ HAL333 19:54, 17 August 2020 (UTC)

Racial views

Following this edit, where do you think it is best to include racial views? --Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 12:53, 19 July 2020 (UTC)

He doesn't have racial views as such. Noteworthy gaffes go in the gaffes section and noteworthy legislative actions go in the appropriate political career section. - MrX 🖋 14:59, 19 July 2020 (UTC)

Emir, it's a good thing that your edit was removed. The article you linked is about to be deleted for good reason, and your inclusion of "racial views" in the section header utterly misrepresents the content of this article's Policy section. There are 20 policy areas that are significant to Biden's life, and "racial views" imputed to some of the billions of words he's spoken in public in the standalone (soon to be deleted) article do not belong in the header or link. SPECIFICO talk 15:19, 19 July 2020 (UTC)

Possibly include in the section "Gaffes". --Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 19:50, 19 July 2020 (UTC)

No. It is UNDUE. SPECIFICO talk 20:11, 19 July 2020 (UTC)

It's pretty rich that mentioning

https://www.politico.com/story/2014/09/joe-biden-shylocks-reaction-111053 or https://www.cbsnews.com/news/bidens-comments-ruffle-feathers/ or https://www.factcheck.org/2008/09/biden-fdr-and-the-invention-of-television/ or https://www.nytimes.com/2019/08/09/us/politics/joe-biden-poor-kids.html

is undue weight, but "He has been a strong speaker and debater and a frequent and effective guest on Sunday morning talk shows." is considered neutral, when articles like http://content.time.com/time/specials/packages/completelist/0,29569,1895156,00.html were probably the most frequent kind of article about him for a decent portion of his entire career. It is telling where the biases of this community lie that the "ain't black" comment was referred toward as "fake outrage" and people are quick to dismiss people's concerns as disingenuous so easily. 2601:482:8000:C470:E805:A0E0:6ECC:E282 (talk) 15:41, 29 July 2020 (UTC)

I don't like that "strong speaker' sentence. It's taken from this source, which is Mark Halperin's opinion. That needs to be fixed. It doesn't get fixed by adding random gaffes though. – Muboshgu (talk) 15:49, 29 July 2020 (UTC)

It doesn't need to be in the main article, but I think all the relevant information included somewhere, regardless of whether it's in the main article or a sub-article. Gaffes are by their nature random. That doesn't lessen the importance of mentioning them, though. I think it's important when politicians casually use words like "Indian giver" or "from the Orient", to use fictitious examples that are much less egregious than anything Biden has said in order to abstract away from Biden specifically. This isn't about Biden or left and right. Wikipedia has a problem with pretending that every American politician is anything other than as stately as Obama, as evidenced by the controversy over including that President Reagan called Africans monkeys in a phone conversation with Nixon. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Ronald_Reagan#There_is_a_RfC_consensus_to_include_Reagan's_%22monkeys%22_remarks

There's also a problem where people are concerned with including X in a certain article, but we can't do this because it's not included in Y article, even though it should be included in both articles X and Y, so it becomes a convention that's a self-perpetuating mistake. People over there cite that the articles for Truman and Johnson do not have their slurs included, either. I think that this should all be handled uniformly by changing the standard for all four articles. Every time an article gets long enough, people start saying "undue weight" to try to keep out information about the subject, when there's always plenty of information that seems irrelevant filling up that space. I think there's undue weight toward his early life and career. Sentences like "He played varsity football as a defensive back.[20][24]" have undue weight compared to most of his gaffes that are linked, given his reputation for them. 2601:482:8000:C470:E805:A0E0:6ECC:E282 (talk) 16:28, 29 July 2020 (UTC)

Biden's racial views are not a defining characteristic of his life. -- Scjessey (talk) 18:02, 29 July 2020 (UTC)

It's subjective where the line is, and it isn't for us to determine. They're included in the article for Michael Richards, and he's not even a politician with power to influence the relative economic status of races through policy advocacy. Biden's individual political positions, as well as some facets of his early life, are not defining characteristics, but even minor points can form a picture of a greater whole. The media thought it was important enough to report on, and I think that should really be all that matters. I don't think that these comments are less important than an episode list for some TV show. Wikipedia doesn't mention it, but Joe Biden strongly opposed racial reparations[26], justifying that by saying it isn't fair to punish whites for what their ancestors did. Maybe his gaffes can be interpreted as reflecting underlying views which inform policies like that, or maybe they don't. For all of these politicians, why not include it all within Wikipedia generally and let readers decide what the defining characteristics are? 2601:482:8000:C470:E805:A0E0:6ECC:E282 (talk) 18:13, 29 July 2020 (UTC)

Michael Richards went on stage and yelled the n-word a bunch of times, impacting his career and resulting in significant news coverage. Joe Biden hasn't done anything like that. What an WP:OTHERSTUFF argument it is to invoke Michael Richards here. Biden's opposition to reparations is a valid political opinion to hold, not a gaffe. Your statement "even minor points can form a picture of a greater whole" makes it appear that you want to violate WP:SYNTH by creating a narrative that Biden is somehow anti-black. – Muboshgu (talk) 18:39, 29 July 2020 (UTC)

I did no such thing. I'm sorry, I was confused as to whether the topic at hand encompassed whether Biden's racial views more generally are worth including or whether only the gaffes are worth including, because of the RfD at the top of this page. I was also not aware of WP:OTHERSTUFF, and my false impression had been informed by people citing other presidents' articles in the Ronald Reagan discussion. Basically, it gave me the false impression that Wikipedia uses an analog of judicial precedent. The purpose behind the sentence regarding "minor points" was to criticize the criteria of "defining characteristic", when that cannot be said of much of this article's content individually. I think the idea of relative news media determining what has due weight and what doesn't, but not what gets included in Wikipedia at all, is a double standard. I only mean to state that if the news media reports on it, it should be notable enough to include. Unless you also believe the media intended to create the same narrative by reporting on it in the first place, I think such personal and uncivil attacks as to my intentions are unwarranted. I propose that we can include the gaffes that happened during his vice presidency into a section under "Vice presidency of Joe Biden", and that will make the weight more proportionate. 2601:482:8000:C470:E805:A0E0:6ECC:E282 (talk) 18:54, 29 July 2020 (UTC)

I guess I'll edit it into "Vice presidency of Joe Biden" on August 2 or after, and then everyone can review the exact wording. 2601:482:8000:C470:E805:A0E0:6ECC:E282 (talk) 22:54, 31 July 2020 (UTC)

There's no support for such an edit. Nobody is agreeing with you. Under the circumstances, you can drop it or you can seek consensus here on the talk page. Please don't jump into the article against consensus. It's not a good idea. SPECIFICO talk 23:38, 31 July 2020 (UTC)

Well, all I meant to do was propose a compromise involving a subarticle and I'd gotten WP:SILENCE on that, but I assumed it was because I didn't make the suggestion prominent enough, so I was making sure, and it worked. I'm dropping it. Don't be so quick to assume bad faith. 2601:482:8000:C470:E805:A0E0:6ECC:E282 (talk) 00:11, 1 August 2020 (UTC)

Actually, I assumed that you would drop it. So I guess I had you figured about right. Thanks for your ideas. SPECIFICO talk 01:35, 1 August 2020 (UTC)

• and another one, about Blacks not being diverse, which of course should be mentioned yet won't because of the bias in this article. At a certain point one has to take a step back and admit that the article is not complete without any mention of the continuous racial gaffes made by Biden. Sir Joseph ^(talk) 05:11, 7 August 2020 (UTC)

• As I said above, while we have numerous stories about comments Biden made, we don't have any comprehensive sources about his "racial views." We can't put them together and implicitly or explicitly state what Biden's racial views are, because we need a reliable secondary source that does that. You must provide a source that says Biden makes "continuous racial gaffes." Don't accuse editors of bias because they don't want to say things that are not reported in reliable sources. TFD (talk) 05:37, 7 August 2020 (UTC)

Yeah, we’ll put that in there right after we add to the a Trump article the fact that he pronounces Yosemite “Yo! Semite!”, that he can pass a dementia test, that he says “Biden will hurt god”, that Trump’s Facebook account was penalized for posting Covid disinformation, same for Twitter, that he said that people dying by thousands “is what it is”, that the virus will “disappear one day, like a miracle”, that he threatened to postpone the election, that having the most cases of covid was a “badge of honor”, that he claimed to not know John Lewis because the recently deceased Civil Rights icon “did not come to his inauguration”, that “the manuals” (sic) told him “not to test (for Covid) too much”, that he wishes Ghislaine Maxwell well, and... the other couple dozen crazy things he’s said. And that’s just from the past week.

Yup, as soon as all that is taken care of we can think about adding whatever inane quote from Biden people managed to dredge up. Volunteer Marek 06:11, 7 August 2020 (UTC)

So we should delete the Racial views of Donald Trump article? Because Biden has been spewing these "gaffes" his whole career, from when he was in Delaware until now, and he's now a Presidential candidate and it's getting news coverage, so I really don't know why you don't think it's worthy of inclusion. To compare it to Trump's pronunciation of Yosemite, just goes to show why perhaps you might want to take a step back and think about how biased this article is and how we aren't covering all that we should be. Sir Joseph ^(talk) 14:56, 7 August 2020 (UTC)

I think you're missing the point. Stupid Trump gaffes and stupid Biden gaffes are treated the same; we don't include them. Biden hasn't inspired any neo-Nazi rallies that I'm aware of. – Muboshgu (talk) 15:27, 7 August 2020 (UTC)

and neither has Trump, which is SYNTH, and we don't do that in Wikipedia. I'm still not sure why you would continue to ignore his many years of elected political racial gaffes just to score bias points. Let's remember that Biden has been a politician for decades, not a businessman, etc. His racial gaffes should have been in the article, yet isn't because Wikipedia has an implicit bias. To argue otherwise is ignoring facts. Sir Joseph ^(talk) 15:54, 7 August 2020 (UTC)

Yeah, no. Volunteer Marek 15:59, 7 August 2020 (UTC)

Please do not say SYNTH when the connection is duly and amply cited to RS. RS also say Trump's "gaffes" are backed up with his administration's actions. Was Trump's Inaugural Address a big long gaffe? SPECIFICO talk 16:05, 7 August 2020 (UTC)

Sir Joseph, just to score bias points reads to me like you projecting upon your insistence that Joe Biden's gaffes speak to some sort of "racial views'. I strive to prevent AP2 articles from having bias, and saying that Trump inspired the Charlottesville rally is clearly not SYNTH. – Muboshgu (talk) 16:56, 7 August 2020 (UTC)

Muboshgu, and yet his long list of racial statements, with RS and news coverage, is notably absent from this article. Sir Joseph ^(talk) 17:01, 7 August 2020 (UTC)

The "long list" is actually news-of-the-moment, gaffe-like statements that are soon clarified or if warranted, retracted. In contrast, Donald Trump has 5 decades of racially-charged words and deeds that he doubles and triples down on when questioned. Biden has no such history. ValarianB (talk) 17:30, 7 August 2020 (UTC)

Yeah, what ValarianB said. There is no "narrative" that reliable sources have strung together from Biden's gaffes that approaches "racial views". Donald Trump's first mention in the NYT was in the 1970s regarding discriminatory housing policies towards blacks. Add that in with the Central Park Five, the Obama birther thing, and everything else, and we have reliable sources reporting a narrative. – Muboshgu (talk) 18:05, 7 August 2020 (UTC)

It is appropriate that Biden's past stance on desegregation busing is covered in detail, while random gaffes that are walked back within 24 hours are not. Sir Joseph: not sure why you believe that refraining from imposing a "racial views" narrative on such gaffes represents bias. Indeed, it would be bias and synthesis if we did impose such a narrative because it goes far beyond what a fair reflection of reliable sources would allow. RedHotPear (talk) 05:36, 8 August 2020 (UTC)

Sources

Some sources below. --Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 20:49, 20 August 2020 (UTC)

• Racial jungle
• Risk alienating black voters
• Apology for Comments on Racial Diversity Among Blacks
• Complicated issue of race
• History of controversial racial comments
• Diversity of Latino community
• Reckoning on race
• Racial equality in interview with Cardi B
• Racist concepts
• Problems talking about race
• "Will Black Voters Still Love Biden When They Remember Who He Was?"
• Racial equality

Discussion at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of Democrats who oppose the 2020 Joe Biden presidential campaign

 You are invited to join the discussion at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of Democrats who oppose the 2020 Joe Biden presidential campaign. - MrX 🖋 23:27, 22 August 2020 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 26 August 2020

In "...he met the 1,991-delegate threshold needed to secure the party's nomination." I would suggest adding "Democratic" under party just for extra clarification, as it is not mentioned anywhere in that paragraph and it's good form. CamSox (talk) 20:03, 26 August 2020 (UTC)

 Done. Thank you for pointing that out. Aoi (青い) (talk) 20:34, 26 August 2020 (UTC)

Updating with information related to Biden's DNC nomination?

Hi, wise editors, I am expecting the page be updated with information related to Biden's DNC nomination (to be confirmed tonight), but didn't see much, was it because such information are not notable enough to have a section / mention on this article?

xinbenlv ^{Talk, Remember to "ping" me} 01:21, 19 August 2020 (UTC)

Also, maybe in relation to this topic, the fact that Biden has lost the presidential nomination for the Democratic Party previously should not be placed this high on the page. That is of course relevant information, but to give a clear, fast overview of the page, it should be put lower in his (political) biography. Frederik Glerup Christensen (talk) 17:16, 30 August 2020 (UTC)