Talk:John Brown University

Not classified as a "liberal arts college"

Dwo is claiming that this university is a "liberal arts college." US News & World Report includes the institution among "Regional Universities South," not among its liberal arts college categories. The institution is not a member of the Consortium of Liberal Arts Colleges. The institution itself doesn't claim to be a "liberal arts college," instead claiming to be a "private Christian university." So this claim appears to be contrary to the available evidence and requires substantial, additional evidence. ElKevbo (talk) 00:47, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

Dwo is continuing to edit war over this issue (without even the courtesy of participating in this discussion or a meaningful edit summary), this time adding only a source published two decades ago. That could be used to substantiate a historical claim about what the institution used to be like but it's nowhere sufficient to counter the current sources listed above. ElKevbo (talk) 03:23, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

And this continues with Dwo continuing to make edits without any attempt at discussion. The latest source they have added is a self-published source from the university. It's certainly a reliable source but it's directly contradicted by other reliable sources that are independent of the university. So one could perhaps write that the institution still claims to be a liberal arts college or still claims to hold some of the values of a liberal arts college but we cannot simply insert the university's own claims into the article when they're contradicted by independent reliable sources. ElKevbo (talk) 22:50, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

Okay, here we go…

You’re wanting to make a change to the article. Now, I am not here to defend JBU’s status as a liberal-arts institution. (Let me clarify what I mean by that: I am not here in this particular discussion thread to defend JBU’s status as a liberal-arts institution.) I’m here to destroy your argument that it is not.

You said that you provided “independent reliable sources” that contradict that JBU is a liberal-arts institution. You have not done that. In fact, you have provided exactly zero sources which say that. What you have actually provided is:

• one source that says that it’s listed as a “Regional University” by US News & World Report and
• another source that does not list it as a member of the Consortium of Liberal Arts Colleges.

Fair: let’s concede that JBU is classified by US News & World Report as a regional university and also that JBU is not a member of this Consortium of Liberal Arts Colleges. You also made a third proposition that JBU does not claim to be a liberal-arts institution. I am now going to tell you why are wrong.

Let’s start with that consortium. Yes, JBU is not a member of the Consortium of Liberal Arts Colleges. So what? The Consortium wasn’t even established until 1984. Liberal-arts colleges and universities clearly existed before 1984, and—hear me out here—suppose that this Consortium of Liberal Arts Colleges just… shuts down tomorrow or goes out of business or whatever term is proper to use when a nonprofit organization stops being an organization. Those members of the consortium—they don’t just suddenly cease to be liberal-arts institutions as a result. It’s not like liberal-arts colleges are suddenly not a thing anymore because this particular consortium which was established in the year of our Lord nineteen hundred and eighty-four also suddenly ceased to be a thing. Someone can’t make the argument that a liberal-arts institution must be a member of this particular consortium in order to be a liberal-arts institution.

Let’s talk about the next thing: US News & World Report. It classifies JBU as a “Regional University”. So? This is a classic false-dichotomy fallacy where the argument mistakenly tries to exclude the possibility, in this case, that an institution can both be classified by US News & World Report as a Regional University (no argument from me) and a liberal-arts institution. Why can’t it? I mean surely an exampl… oh! Look at this! Alma College—Wikipedia’s describes it as a “liberal arts college” in the lede of its article. It’s even on that list of the members of that Consortium of Liberal Arts Colleges that we were talking about earlier… but what does US News & World Report classify it as? “Regional Colleges Midwest”—not liberal-arts college! So, a liberal-arts college can indeed still be a liberal-arts college and also still be classified as something different by the fine blokes at US News & World Report. Okay, so that’s just one example. One is a fluke, so let’s do one better: Manhattan College—same situation: the article’s lede says it’s a liberal-arts institution, and it’s also on that consortium’s list doohicky, but what does US News & World Report say that it is? “Regional Universities North” One’s a fluke, but two’s just a coincidence, so we need a third example, right? Mills College in the category of and also a Consortium member… but, in the near past (i.e., 2021) listed as a Regional University by US News & World Report. One’s a fluke; two’s a coincidence… but three’s clearly a pattern. So, whatever classification that US News & World Report assigns to an institution necessarily doesn’t make a liberal-arts college not a liberal-arts college.

Speaking of three, let’s talk about that third proposition: “The institution itself doesn't claim to be a ‘liberal arts college,’ instead claiming to be a ‘private Christian university.’ ” Firstly, those terms of liberal-arts college and private Christian university do not have to be and are not mutually exclusive. (It’s that false-dichotomy thing again.) Secondly… it actually does make that claim. True, it does not make that claim on its website’s home page, but… you know, liberal-arts institutions existed long before websites were a thing, and, even so, just because a liberal-arts college doesn’t put it out front-and-centre that it is such an institution doesn’t mean that it’s not. Although, it is odd that you’re here originally saying that JBU didn’t claim to be a liberal-arts college using the university’s website to support that, and, then, when that was later shown to be counterfactual, the university’s claims suddenly didn’t matter because, now, it’s not a reliable source because it’s self-published. It did not matter when you were using the same self-published source to make your argument, so it doesn’t matter now when that self-published source actually says something different because you didn’t look through the source hard enough. Your rationale changed when it turned out that the facts didn’t support your reasoning, and, when your rationale changes, it means that you never had a rationale—something I learned from a liberal-arts education at a liberal-arts college. (See what I did there?)

Look, you made a bad (but good-faith) edit on Wikipedia. I know the feeling: I’ve been there and done that too. Move on. — D. Wo. 05:34, 21 January 2023 (UTC)

The only evidence you have that this is currently a liberal arts college is a self-published claim, one that isn't even consistently made by the institution. Other common indicators - how the oldest and most widely used ranking system classifies the institution, the most representative and common organization to which liberal arts colleges (and universities) belong - do not support your claim. You're insisting on maintaining information in this article that is not supported by the available evidence. ElKevbo (talk) 05:57, 21 January 2023 (UTC)

There doesn't seem to be any evidence from reliable independent sources that it is a liberal arts college. It describes itself on a single webpage – and not the main "About JBU" page – as offering education "within the context of a liberal arts college", which is a somewhat sideways claim at best. This is insufficient evidence, per Wikipedia:Reliable sources for something to be included on Wikipedia.

To address the other points raised: Liberal arts colleges would not cease to be liberal arts colleges if the Consortium of Liberal Arts Colleges ceased to exist, nor did they spring into existence at its creation. But that's not the point. Membership of the consortium is evidence that an institution is considered a liberal arts college by its peers. Not being a member doesn't necessarily mean that am institution isn't a liberal arts college, but it means that it being a liberal arts college cannot be verified by membership in the consortium. In the famous phrase, Wikipedia is about verifiability, not truth. This same applies to classification by US News. Yes, a liberal arts college can be classified by US News as a regional university but still be a liberal arts college, but it has removed another standard reliable source from being used for verifiability.

If the institution were a member of the consortium but classified by US News as a regional university, as in the examples cited, then that it was a liberal arts college would still be verifiably and can be included. If it was not a member of the consortium but was classified as a liberal arts college by US News, then that it was a liberal arts college would still be verifiable and can be included. If an institution was not a member of the consortium and was classified as a regional university by US News, but there were other reliable independent sources that classified it as a liberal arts college (e.g., it was included in an academic study of liberal arts colleges), then that it was a liberal arts college would still be verifiable and can be included. But if there is no way of verifying that an institution is a liberal arts college, which appears to be the case here, then the claim that it is a liberal arts college fails the core Wikipedia policy of Wikipedia:Verifiability and should not be included.

To summarise, it doesn't matter if arguments that JBU is not a liberal arts college are 'destroyed'. To quote the Wikipedia policy on burden of proof, "All content must be verifiable. The burden to demonstrate verifiability lies with the editor who adds or restores material, and it is satisfied by providing an inline citation to a reliable source that directly supports the contribution." (emphasis in original). In other words, evidence based on reliable independent sources needs to be offered that it positively is a liberal arts college for that claim to be included on Wikipedia, otherwise the claim should be removed. Robminchin (talk) 07:28, 21 January 2023 (UTC)

Those are very fair points, but the peculiar manner that I responded was specifically in rebuttal to the statement that the two sources (i.e., Ostrander’s book chronicling the history of the university with the included narrative of how the institution transitioned throughout the twentieth century from a vocational school into a liberal-arts school) were “contradicted by independent reliable sources”. My argument distilled into one sentence is that there was no such contradiction.

Although, I do have to admit that, after reading other comments, I’ve been solely focused on the university’s undergraduate program—which heavily emphasizes liberal-arts education—while not taking into consideration the graduate school. If it bothers others to definitively state that the university is a liberal-arts college, in order to move along and bring this to a close, let’s reword the phrase in question to highlight the university’s undergraduate focus on the liberal arts without decisively saying the term liberal-arts college. If no one objects, I would be willing to make those changes. — D. Wo. 03:39, 22 January 2023 (UTC)

• If I Google "John Brown University" "liberal arts college" I do get a lot of hits, but most of these don't look like reliable sources and appear to be virtually identical text copied over and over, the origins of which I am not ambitious enough to chase. If, on the other hand, I start with the standard definition of Liberal Arts College, a small institution that concentrates on undergraduate education in liberal arts and science as opposed to professional, vocational or technical training, I'm inclined to say that it does not fall in that category. Based on USDOE data on recent grads [1], its MBA program is nearly as large as its undergrad business department, its masters program in health is twice the size of its nursing program (which is not a liberal arts program at all), as is the case in its education department, it has a relatively large number of engineering grads. Roughly 47% of the 2021 undergrad degrees awarded were in business, education, engineering, nursing and ministry as opposed to liberal arts. The grad school enrollment is roughly 28% of total enrollment. [2] It can be fairly argued that this is original research on my part, but between the high percentage of graduate students and the high percentage of professional, vocational and technical undergrad degrees, I just don't think that it meets the definition of "liberal arts college". Banks Irk (talk) 20:24, 21 January 2023 (UTC)