Talk:Jovano Jovanke

Macedonian and Bulgarian song

The song existed way before Republic of Macedonia did and if it is to be only Macedonian song it should be song from Macedonia region not Republic of Macedonia.-Soul assassin 23:21, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

The song is Macedonian! The ridiculous statements that the song is Bulgarian hold water only in the face if the Bulgarian chauvinistic claims that the Macedonian nation doesn't exist, and that there is no Macedonian language. Therefore the faulty claim that anything that originated on Macedonian soil and was written or otherwise produced in Macedonian language must be Bulgarian. If that's what they want to say by arguing that the song is "Bulgarian" ok, more power to them… —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.69.228.17 (talk) 22:36, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

Can we mention that NiM Sofyan have released the song on two of their albums (düm tek and Tuna), and that on both of them they listed the song as "Macedonian Traditional"? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.69.228.17 (talk) 02:32, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

I think that is fine. Sorry to revert you earlier. I just sense it is a red flag for someone of Bulgarian nationalist who will then just go and change 'Macedonian' to 'Bulgarian'. Is it a solution to describe the song as a "traditional song of the Macedonia region" and avoid using a adjective that could be confused with a particular nation state? Donama (talk) 08:13, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

I am sorry, but I have to disagree. What you are suggesting is not to call the song what it factually is (i.e. a Macedonian traditional), because some Bulgarian nationalists may disagree? Let's not speak of the truth because it is unpleasant to few people.. By the way, the Bulgarian link listed under "External links" itself describes the song as Macedonian. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.69.228.17 (talk) 00:41, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

I don't disagree with your statement that the song is Macedonian. From everything I've read, the song appears to be traditional to the region of Macedonia. And that region doesn't match to any particular sovereign nation (eg. FYROM, Bulgaria, Greece, Albania) and bits of the region of Macedonia are spread over all those countries. So to describe the song as Macedonian is potentially confusing because people don't know if it means the region of Macedonia or the sovereign nation of Macedonia. I put the current introduction as a way to disambiguate between the two in a way that cannot be confused. Donama (talk) 04:28, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

Songs (as well as other cultural heritage) are not created by geographical regions - they are created by people. The traditional songs were passed from one generation to another by word of mouth and nowadays are cherished as identifiers.

This song is Macedonian not in the sense that it originated from the region of Macedonia, but – in the sense that it was created and popularized by the ethnic Macedonians as a people. The fact of the matter is that this song is part of their cultural heritage regardless of which part of Macedonia, or which country they live in.

Therefore, saying that "this is a song from the region of Macedonia" is just not good enough – it is not specific enough, and in fact a bit confusing. And this is so for a number of reasons: the region of Macedonia is populated by multiple nations - ethnic Macedonians, Greeks, Turks, Albanians, Vlachs (Aromanians), Roma (Gypsies) etc. So, a song can be traditional from the region of Macedonia, but not be Macedonian (there are Macedonian, Albanian, Gypsy songs from Macedonia etc.). For example, on Božilak - the album of traditional songs by Toše Proeski, one of the songs is from Macedonia, but it is not Macedonian! Song #12 on the album (Nazalena nevesta) is a Vlach song, and he sings is in Aromanian, but the song originated in Macedonia. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.69.228.17 (talk) 23:35, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

If I understand you correctly, what you're saying is it should go:

Jovano Jovanke is a traditional Macedonian folk song.

Donama (talk) 03:17, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

Yes, that's exactly what I am arguing. It should go Jovano Jovanke is a traditional Macedonian folk song

The song is Bulgarian. If it is folk song, please read this article Macedonian Bulgarians. Until 1944 ethnic Macedonians did not exist. Jingby (talk) 17:02, 30 August 2009 (UTC)

You see Donama - this is exactly what I am talking about. There is still a number of people in Bulgaria and Greece who live in denial. They refuse to accept the fact that a Macedonian nation exists. Yeah, sure Jingby the song is as Bulgarin as the river Vardar LoL... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.69.228.17 (talk) 19:36, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

Since you say so, we'll have to take it. You can spell it in Bulgarian Cyrillic if you like: Вардар.--Laveol ^T 13:43, 3 September 2009 (UTC)

I see the concept of Macedonian ethnicity as somewhat amorphous. Clearly it existed before 1944 but it's unclear whether the original author of the song (presumably back in the mists of time) would identify as Macedonian and even if he/she did, it's unclear what that would mean given the movement of people and rearrangement of geo-political boundaries since the mists of time. Clearly both ethnic Bulgarians and ethnic Macedonians in the region of Macedonia claim the song as their own. I don't see any point in arguing over it. Let's leave it as is, stating simply that it's a traditional song of the region of Macedonia. Donama (talk) 03:48, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

Yeah Donama, if you are interested in this amorphous concept, you could clear your point of view trough reading also this one article: Macedonian nationalism. Regards! Jingby (talk) 08:56, 4 September 2009 (UTC)

Jovano Jovanke or Jovano, Jovanke?

Should there be a comma in the title? If so, then the article should be moved to Jovano, Jovanke (or even Yovano, Yovanke). If not, then the lead should be amended. //Dirak 21:17, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

I dont object to the "J", or the comma in the title.   /FunkyFly.talk_  21:19, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

The song originates in the western part of Republic of Macedonia, before the formation of Republic of Macedonia. Plato existed way before the creation of the Hellenic Republic, yet he is still considered Greek. If you wish to add it to the Macedonia region songlist, go ahead, but that doesn't make the song Bulgarian. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Maynooth (talk) 15:14, 12 December 2006 (UTC).

Plato's works were in Greek language, ergo they are Greek. This song is in Bulgarian language, ergo it is Bulgarian. //Dirak 15:16, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

The song IS in Macedonian. http://www.paulboizot.co.uk/lyrics/jovano.htm —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 160.111.254.11 (talk) 15:24, 12 December 2006 (UTC).

See [1] //Dirak 15:29, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

The link you provided is Bulgarian. Of course it will be in Bulgarian. See http://www.paulboizot.co.uk/lyrics/jovano.htm , and http://www.folkloretanznoten.de/JovanoJovanke.htm

You have no right to discriminate against Bulgarian, or in fact sources in any language. Read the information, not the language it is in.   /FunkyFly.talk_  15:53, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

You should not get angry. I'm simply providing impartial sources. http://www.paulboizot.co.uk/lyrics/jovano.htm , and http://www.folkloretanznoten.de/JovanoJovanke.htm. The very same ones that were posted as external links below the article before you turned this into a personal matter. Remain impartial. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 160.111.254.11 (talk • contribs)

I laughed for 5 minutes when I saw your comment User: Laveol (alphabetical listing)

is there no limit?! :))) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Capricornis (talk • contribs) 18:06, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Categories

If it's going to have the categories Macedonian and Bulgarian songs, shouldn't it also have the categories Serbian and Greek songs? --AimLook (talk) 02:38, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

That sounds fine. Go ahead. I think the point is that it's a traditional song that originates from a region in the Balkans which currently doesn't strictly fit inside the borders of one particular nation state. Donama (talk) 04:22, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

Alphabetical Listing? (of renditions)

That is a joke. Laveol, I think this song is Macedonian. You think it is Bulgarian. I know neither side can produce hard evidence of where it originates from, but that is no reason for putting the Bulgarian version ahead of the Macedonian one. As we all know, being first in order implies that the song is of Bulgarian origin. However, Aleksandar Sarievski is the most famous performer and (correct me if I'm wrong) he is also the first performer. Therefore, the Macedonian version should receive precedence. Your thoughts? Bruka (talk) 07:10, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

Hmm, actually the order does not imply anything - that way Macedonian is in the middle which could imply the same. I don't think it's a Bulgarian song, but that it comes from the Balkans. And I'm tired of silly movings around and around the only NPOV way is to list the two possible versions in an alphabetical order with Eglish coming after them as it could not be mistaken as country (as ridiculous as it sounds) of origin. That's the best possible solution in such cases and what we were advised on previous occassions such a dispute arose. --Laveol ^T 10:39, 4 November 2008 (UTC)

I reworked the section to be in chronology order. Don't mind if it's changed but should follow an ordering that avoids giving any particular rendition special attention. Also removed point-of-view statements like "best known" and "famous". Of course all these artists must be famous to some extent or the rendition wouldn't be in the public domain. Donama (talk) 04:26, 24 August 2009 (UTC)

I have to agree with Bruka - the song is generaly considered Macedonian, and in the listing of the renditions, the Macedonian version should come first. The only groups of people who argue that the song is not Macedonian are the Bulgarians and the Greeks - both of whom indulge in negating the existence of the Macedonian nation and the Macedonian language. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.69.228.17 (talk) 02:25, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

And Laveol, if the order doesn't imply anything (which I think it does), why don't you agree to have the Macedonian version first? If you think the order of listing of the renditions doesn't matter, than you shouldn't have anything against the Macedonian version being lsited first. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.69.228.17 (talk) 02:30, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

Lyrics

Why is so wrong to mention that the lyrics is in Macedonian? Whenever the song is sang the text is always in Macedonian i.e. in Croatia they sing it in Macedonian, in BG they sing it in Macedonian etc. That is a fact that need to be mentioned and that has nothing to do with proving whether the song is BG or Macedonian (we know it isn't). --MacedonianBoy (talk) 13:46, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

If the song is hundreds of years old (as it's purported to be) then the linguistic classification predates classifications of Macedonian and Bulgarian dialects from the southern Slavonic dialect continuum. This is a point seized upon by Bulgarian and Macedonian nationalists alike. So I see little value in trying to pin down whether the "original language" was Macedonian or some dialect of Bulgarian that no longer has a name. It's a political war rather than encyclopaedic. I'm not going to change what you've done though, because I don't want to be involved in edit warring myself. I'm concerned that certain others will come along here and start warring over it though and that's when I'll have to step back in and ask for it to simply be removed. Donama (talk) 01:20, 19 July 2011 (UTC)

Yes, I see little value in adding this and sparking yet another lame edit-war. Why does it always had to be dog-pissed with all our language. I am pretty confident the song pre-dates not only the codification of Macedonia, but that of Bulgarian and Serbian, as well. --Laveol ^T 07:07, 19 July 2011 (UTC)

I have edited it. None of the sources says something like: "The original song is in Macedonian" and cannot possibly say such a thing for the reasons already stated above. --Laveol ^T 07:05, 20 July 2011 (UTC)

I have removed the additions altogether, because, as I see it, they're unnecessary. It's sung in all the languages of the region (as has been previously shown when the lyrics were included in the article in various languages. That a Macedonian language rendition exists is obvious and giving undue weight to one particular language over the others. Donama (talk) 00:16, 21 July 2011 (UTC)

As an impartial party to this discussion, I'd like to point out an inconsistency. Above the lyrics, it says "Macedonian" and "English". However, the original lyrics are transliterated into Bulgarian. Either rewrite the lyrics into proper Macedonian, or change the heading. Perhaps in order to avoid another edit war and argument between nationalists, changing the heading to "Original", and rewriting the lyrics to reflect the proper Macedonian orthography (since the lyrics are obviously in Macedonian) would be an acceptable compromise for the nationalists on both sides. As it is makes little sense -- it says "Macedonian", the lyrics are indeed in that language, but the writing is transliterated using Bulgarian alphabet. Vasic (talk) 18:37, 19 March 2016 (UTC)

vowels and semivowels

Jovano, Jovanke (Macedonian: Јовано, Јованке, (in some countries latinised with a Y, signifying a short Close front unrounded vowel)

Unless I'm very much deluded, the J does not represent the vowel /i/, it represents the palatal approximant /j/. I'll change the description and correct the punctuation, hoping not to offend any Macedonians or Bulgarians. —Tamfang (talk) 01:46, 26 February 2017 (UTC)

Lame edit-war

The song is old and is performed all over Macedonia, including the Bulgarian part. It existed before the codification of the Macedonian language in 1945. It is unnecessary to delve into this topic, especially since academic sources in English have been added, which describe it as an old urban song from Bulgaria. Jingiby (talk) 05:22, 27 June 2021 (UTC)