Talk:Juneau-Douglas High School

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Questions[edit]

JDHS (and whatever school served as its predecessor) has been around long enough to where I shouldn't have to ask this, but:

  • There is no mention as to whether Juneau High School prior to 1927 is considered a direct ancestor. I'm personally aware of mentions of "Juneau High School" going back as far as 1903. I would have to think there is a direct relation, considering that other high school pages in Alaska encompass a direct lineage of related and similarly named institutions (e.g. Anchorage High School -> West Anchorage High School and Fairbanks High School -> Lathrop High School).
  • I would personally like to know as to whether the notable alumni section is for actually notable people, or people with dubious celebrity value. If so, there are dozens of people who deserve to be mentioned above Bristol Palin.RadioKAOS (talk) 09:16, 23 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]
On that note, there have been far, far too many notable graduates over the past century-plus since to list right now. Unless, like I allude to above, you're only capable of confusing notability with celebrity like so many other people, and you're going to tell me that none of them really matter. From all accounts, the very first notable graduate of J(D)HS was Crystal Snow, class of 1905. There are numerous sources (albeit sketchy or conflicting) which refer or otherwise point to Snow's older brother. If this really was him that the sources were talking about, he was noted throughout the first half of the 20th century for his lyrical adaptation of "Maryland, My Maryland", which was recognized by the Pioneers of Alaska as Alaska's official song, prior to "Alaska's Flag" being adopted as such by the territorial legislature. RadioKAOS  – Talk to me, Billy 20:07, 22 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Regarding Bristol Palin, my impression is that Wikipedia tends to consider anyone who is the subject of a Wikipedia article to be notable. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 02:34, 6 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Oh yeah[edit]

The "Bong Hits For Jesus" thing was certainly important, but reading the current article, you would tend to have the impression that this was all that JDHS was known for. I think it qualifies as an undue weight issue to give that much space to that issue versus anything else. No, it's not my job to tell you what I'm talking about. Get some perspective first.RadioKAOS (talk) 09:22, 23 February 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Bong Hits For Jesus[edit]

Although important in it own right, the issue has no place as the only history of Juneau-Douglas High School. I have removed it, as it has been well over 2 years since the last objection, and there are no arguments in support of it remaining.

It still has the referral in the external links section.Wicks Steve (talk) 11:33, 7 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

When I first read this talk-page comment, I had no idea what it was talking about. A disciplinary action taken by the school that was disputed all the way to the U.S. Supreme Court is absolutely relevant and should be discussed (or at least clearly mentioned) in the article about the school. There is currently no clear mention of it in the article. The description in the article about one of the external links is completely vague about what the linked article is talking about: "MSNBC article about banner case"? – what the heck does that mean? What does "banner case" mean? Under "Notable alumni", there's a mention of a student who was involved in a Supreme Court case, but no mention that the case had anything to do with the school. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 19:06, 6 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Agreed. A Supreme Court case concerning the school's actions certainly should be covered. Meters (talk) 19:26, 6 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
A paragraph under § History and symbols could work. The history section used to be entirely information about the case, but over the years it was removed because editors at the time felt it was a bit much and may have over-corrected when removing it. I agree that the external link referring to it as the "banner case" is a bit unhelpful, though. It's better known as the "Bong Hits For Jesus" case, or simply by its case name Morse v. Frederick. 〜 Askarion ✉ 20:56, 6 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

New Name[edit]

Juneau Douglas High School's official name has been changed to Juneau-Douglas Yadaa.at Kalé High School. Should this page be moved? --24.69.133.124 (talk) 22:34, 8 June 2020 (UTC)[1][reply]

See WP:COMMONNAME, particularly WP:NAMECHANGES. The name was only changed last year. and it appears to be a mouthful. Are reliable sources using the full name? Meters (talk) 22:44, 8 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
It's not clear that anyone actually uses the new name. JDHS has been JDHS for 115 years before the recent name addition. Move reverted. Jclemens (talk) 04:48, 4 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Just to note that the cited source (from 2019) says the new name is "Juneau-Douglas: Yadaa.at Kalé High School", but that appears to have been incorrect. Another 2019 media source,[2], a 2024 media source,[3] the school and the school board,[4] the Alaska Department of Education, [5] and the NCES[6] use the name "Juneau-Douglas High School: Yadaa.at Kalé" (although the NCES has incorrectly spelled "Kalé" as "KalT". Whether we move this or not, it appears that the recent attempt to move it to "Juneau-Douglas: Yadaa.at Kalé High School" was incorrect. Meters (talk) 19:43, 4 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Juneau-Douglas High School: Yadaa.at Kalé is the name. Emphasis01 (talk) 00:58, 6 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ https://www.juneauempire.com/news/tlingit-name-gifted-to-juneau-douglas-high-school/
  2. ^ https://www.ktoo.org/2019/01/09/whats-in-a-name-after-student-push-juneau-douglas-high-school-adds-tlingit-name-yadaa-at-kale/
  3. ^ https://www.juneauempire.com/opinion/my-turn-consolidating-into-one-modestly-sized-high-school-is-best-for-juneaus-students/
  4. ^ https://jdhs.juneauschools.org/
  5. ^ https://education.alaska.gov/compass/ParentPortal/SchoolProfile?SchoolID=220070
  6. ^ https://nces.ed.gov/ccd/schoolsearch/school_detail.asp?Search=1&ID=020021000133

Requested move 5 April 2024[edit]

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: withdrawn This is targeted to the wrong name and OP has requested that we "start a new discussion". I have commented in the discussion without stating an opinion on a rename (other than that this target is the wrong one). WP:RMEC applies. Please start a new RM with the correct target. (non-admin closure) Meters (talk) 02:54, 6 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Juneau-Douglas High School → Juneau-Douglas: Yadaa.at Kalé High School – New name User:Emphasis1 — Preceding undated comment added 05:13, 4 April 2024‎ (UTC) by User:Emphasis01 This is a contested technical request (permalink). Emphasis01 (talk) 23:10, 5 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

No dialogue has been started with Ahecht because they aren't looking at their talk page. There's absolutely no merit to not changing the article's name. JSD (the district) has been changing school names and will continue to do that. People who do not know anything about the process are "sounding off" incorrectly. They aren't common names or anything else, they are official names and used as such. There is zero debate. Emphasis01 (talk) 23:10, 5 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  • Oppose No evidence RS'es use the new name. Juneau School District is not independent of the High School. What does The Juneau Empire say? This uses the full name once, and the abbreviation JDHS throughout, indicating that yes, the name change is acknowledged, but not in regular use. This is three years in? It's obviously still JDHS in common parlance, just like it has been since 1905. Jclemens (talk) 23:24, 5 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Also, the proposed name isn't even correct. If it's moved anywhere, it would be to Juneau-Douglas High School: Yadaa.at Kalé. Jclemens (talk) 23:26, 5 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    That is the name I suggested. Jclemens I can illustrate your slate of errors on this topic. Emphasis01 (talk) 23:59, 5 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Well, the name I meant to put. I am so annoyed at all of you. Emphasis01 (talk) 00:01, 6 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    If the name you meant to put is not the name you actually nominated, I suggest you withdraw this nomination and try again with the name you did intend to put. My vote is for a procedural close for now. 〜 Askarion ✉ 00:38, 6 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Emphasis01: What are you doing? Now you've opened a move request with the wrong target name, and signed it with an invalid user name. You have not created a new user account. There is no user User:Emphasis1. I had already pointed out to you in the above thread Talk:Juneau-Douglas_High_School#New_Name and in your thread on User:Liz's page User_talk:Liz#Move that you had the name wrong. And you say that you are annoyed with us? Please withdraw this move request and be more careful.
And as I also pointed out in thread on Liz's page. I find your calling other users people who are "sounding off" offensive. Stop doing that. Meters (talk) 01:09, 6 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
You're wrong, other than being right about the incorrect way of moving the article. Emphasis01 (talk) 01:10, 6 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It's not that simple to even start a new discussion. Would you do that, Askarion? It doesn't change the fact that there seems to be 3 or 4 people who don't know much or anything about this topic and should be listening to those who do. Emphasis01 (talk) 01:09, 6 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
You do not own this article. Editors who may not have attended have every right to edit it in line with Wikipedia's policies and procedures. Meters (talk) 01:14, 6 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Meters, you are not right about some of your philosophy. Here, I am going to s-p-e-l-l this out for you. You don't understand the district and what they are doing. They are continuing to change school names. They don't have to make sense to the other 49 states, they just do it. Emphasis01 (talk) 01:16, 6 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Read WP:OWN and WP:COMMONNAME. Again, we know the district has renamed the school. The issue is what name is in common usage. You have given us zero evidence that the new name is in common use. Meters (talk) 01:20, 6 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Did you go look at the sites? Emphasis01 (talk) 01:21, 6 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Once again, you are inferring something and it's in error. Emphasis01 (talk) 01:21, 6 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Confusion like what you are saying is one of the reasons why when Riverbend Elementary was renamed Kax̱dig̱oowu Héen Elementary, the district didn't put an English translation into the name... that and they wanted the children to get accustomed to the new name. It is very clear how the school names are used borough wide. A footnote, the url for the web site has not been changed. It says RBES. Emphasis01 (talk) 01:29, 6 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Askarion, would you create a new move request? Emphasis01 (talk) 01:17, 6 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
To answer your question the newspaper uses JDHS perhaps as a way to avoid typing the entire thing out. That doesn't establish a policy. Look at the school sites, the district's. Emphasis01 (talk) 01:20, 6 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
This is counterintuitive, but we don't care what JSD says the school name is. WP:COMMONNAME says we use what the preponderance of reliable sources use. Guess what? Most RS'es that mention JDHS are from before 2020, and will use Juneau-Douglas High School. Juneau School District can indeed call JDHS whatever it wants to, but until and unless the preponderance of reliable sources agrees with them, the article stays at the common name, with the new/under-adopted name listed in the lead as an alternative name. Jclemens (talk) 01:52, 6 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Wikipedia does not necessarily use the subject's "official" name as an article title; it generally prefers the name that is most commonly used (as determined by its prevalence in a significant majority of independent, reliable, English-language sources) Jclemens (talk) 01:53, 6 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I have said this before, everyone refers to the school by the proposed name. You can look this information up. Do you know how to look it up? Start with school and government pages. Emphasis01 (talk) 02:37, 6 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose: Per Jclemens, the suggested name seems a little mixed up. The school website shows Juneau-Douglas High School: Yadaa.at Kalé, not Juneau-Douglas: Yadaa.at Kalé High School. If rearranged the way the high school's website has it, it would resemble a book title with a subtitle or an institution with an appended tagline or slogan. Subtitles are often omitted from the titles of articles about books, and similarly with taglines for other topics. There seems to be no evidence that the current article is not the common name of the institution among independent reliable sources. Wikipedia is supposed to lag behind independent reliable sources, not lead the way when it comes to name changes. The word independent is part of the phrase "independent reliable sources". —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 02:40, 6 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    That is the name I am proposing, Juneau-Douglas High School: Yadaa.at Kalé. Emphasis01 (talk) 02:48, 6 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Requested move 6 April 2024[edit]

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Not moved. Anarchyte (talk) 06:50, 13 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Juneau-Douglas High School → Juneau-Douglas High School: Yadaa.at Kalé – Corrected proposal. Emphasis01 (talk) 03:39, 6 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  • Pinging the other editors who posted in the original, mistargeted move request: User:Jclemens, User:Askarion, User:BarrelProof. Meters (talk) 03:44, 6 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose per the above. Nominator cites no RS, just government sources, which are not independent of the subject. A preponderance of reliable sources, throughout the lifetime of the school, use Juneau-Douglas High School, JDHS for short. Jclemens (talk) 03:59, 6 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Did you look up school and government sources? I am wondering why you say government is not a RS. Evidently you are misunderstanding where to even find references to "common usage" or such. Emphasis01 (talk) 04:01, 6 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Jclemens, what has been used is not at all relevant to the discussion. The points are that the name changed and is in common usage. Emphasis01 (talk) 04:09, 6 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Look, Emphasis01, Wikipedia has its own set of rules: while they may legitimately be Byzantine, you don't appear to know them, and don't appear to understand that I'm trying to explain them to you. You've been registered for, what, a month? Either you're genuinely clueless and need to learn or you're pretending to be clueless and instead trolling us. I'm WP:AGF'ing the former. Jclemens (talk) 04:18, 6 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose per Jclemens. Most of the articles I found from Juneau Empire (which seems to be the source that reports on Juneau-Douglas High School most often) will usually refer to the school as Juneau-Douglas High School: Yadaa.at Kalé once, and then as JDHS for the rest of the article. This suggests to me that Juneau-Douglas High School is still the WP:COMMONNAME and I see no reason to rock the boat until more reliable sources start referring to it as solely Juneau-Douglas High School: Yadaa.at Kalé (or, at least, JDHSYK). 〜 Askarion ✉ 04:15, 6 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I'd note that even when current RS'es do start to use JDHSYK, it will take years before the preponderance of reliable sources discussing the school, which has a ~120 year history, will have used the new name. Jclemens (talk) 04:20, 6 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    KTOO is a major source of news. Look at how they cover the school. ktoo.org/2024/02/21/students-rally-to-keep-high-school-at-juneau-douglas-high-school-yadaa-at-kale
    They always use the full name. Emphasis01 (talk) 00:08, 7 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    And other sources, like Anchorage Daily News, will not, as recently as two weeks ago. There seems to be disagreement among these sources on which name to use, I'll grant you that much. But until the independent reliable sources consistently use the new name, I think the current article title remains the most helpful for users who are searching for it. 〜 Askarion ✉ 02:32, 7 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    Again, not correct. When you search for a school name either in Wikipedia or Google (or anywhere) it makes absolutely no difference. The search is successful. Emphasis01 (talk) 05:44, 7 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Weak oppose. Wikipedia does not always use the longest available or most officially declared form of a name for an article title. The proposed name resembles a book title with a subtitle or an institution name with an appended tagline/motto/slogan (here, "Yadaa.at Kalé" apparently means "beautifully adorned face"). "Juneau-Douglas High School" seems sufficiently lengthy by itself, and is probably all people say when they want to identify which school they're talking about, and it's abbreviated JDHS. Despite having had the longer name for 5 years, the short form is still good enough for its US News description (here). Subtitles are often omitted from the titles of articles about books, and similarly with taglines for the names of organizations. There seems to be no evidence that the current article name is not the common name of the institution among independent reliable sources. Wikipedia is supposed to lag behind the majority of independent reliable sources, not lead the way when it comes to name changes (see WP:NAMECHANGES). The word independent is part of the phrase "independent reliable sources", so that category does not include the high school itself or the government that operates it. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 04:28, 6 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. What we need to look at in terms of sources, because this is a name change, will be sources published since the change. BarrelProof is correct that we need to lag behind name changes; however, we don't have to wait for the total usages of the new name to catch up to the old one. (We don't operate on precedent, but Ryerson University → Toronto Metropolitan University is a good, recent case in point.) That said, the nominator hasn't given us much coverage of the school in the past five years with the new name, the obvious source in the article has the name in a different order (Juneau-Douglas Yadaa.at Kalé High School), and the Juneau Empire appears to still be referring to the school as Juneau-Douglas.
    Now, let me be clear. I am 110% in favor of calling the school "Juneau-Douglas High School: Yadaa.at Kalé" in the introduction paragraph of the article. This is a case where the school's rendering of the name is sufficient to go on, and we have independent sourcing to verify that the name was changed. (Okay, and I know we're getting close to WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS territory here, but if the Auk’w Kwaan gifted the school the name, putting that name into the article is the right thing to do.) But as far as the title of the article goes—the common name in common usage—Wikipedia policy says to lag behind and use "Juneau-Douglas High School". —C.Fred (talk) 05:05, 6 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I too have no quarrel with the opening sentence of the article, which says "Juneau-Douglas High School: Yadaa.at Kalé (abbreviated JDHS and named Juneau-Douglas High School through 2019) is ..." See, for example, the longer name used at the beginning of the Joe Biden article. Despite that article using a shortened nickname as its title, it starts with "Joseph Robinette Biden Jr. (/ˈbaɪdən/ ⓘ, BY-dən; born November 20, 1942) is an American politician who is ..." —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 05:47, 6 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    What are you talking about? This is nothing to do with personal names, first, middle, and last. Emphasis01 (talk) 20:58, 6 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    It has to do with using a shortened common name as an article title with a longer official name being used in the opening sentence. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 22:51, 6 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. per above request. I am comfortable with the intro lede being as it's current state, but for the name; it's clear it's the common name per WP:COMMONNAME especially after the change here. I can find it in a number of sources including here too. It's most pleasant we leave it like it is, then express it on the Lede which is already done in its current state now. Safari ScribeEdits! Talk! 18:53, 6 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose per WP:COMMONNAME. -- Necrothesp (talk) 12:39, 9 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose Even the school's own website uses "Juneau-Douglas High School" in the HTML title and in the footer of the page. It's clear that that's the WP:COMMONNAME. --Ahecht (TALK
    PAGE    ) 19:54, 11 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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