Talk:Kashmiri language

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KASHMIRI AND PUNJABI

Punjabi and Kashmiri have similar origins. I speak both but no Punjabican understand Kashmirias Kashmiri is much closer to ancient Rigvedic Sanskrit-Avestan Persian both of who are twin languages very similar with common origins. Thus any person linking Kashmiris with Punjabis is either a political person or naive. Religion language and Race are often three different things. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.43.98.151 (talk) 23:39, 10 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Both are Indo-European languages but very different. A Punjabi can not understand Kashmiri. Kashmiri is close to Shina. To link Punjabi to Kashmir is due to the political agenda of some foreigners. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.88.88.203 (talk) 23:08, 2 April 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Kashmiri language surely remains one of the purest Aryan languages. surely it does have a few Semitic words etc. (due to the arrival of Islam in the Valley), but often these words are used more by Muslims than Hindus. In general the language spoken by the Hindus and Muslims is very similar. A unique pure language in this region and is Rigvedic in origin that is next to impossible for most people outside the Valley to understand it. Only Rigvedic scholars might understand spoken Kashmiri — Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.88.88.202 (talk) 19:43, 21 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

KASHMIRI LANGUAGE

A language very close to Rigvedic Sanskrit. It has picked up a few Semitic (Arabic) words after Islam made inroads into the Valley. Example a pious Brahmin of Kashmir refers to fire as Agun, while a Muslim refers to it as Nar. A Muslim refers to travel as Safar while a Hindu refers to it as Yatra. However, the language remains mainly a pure Aryan language and there is no confusion on this nor can any one create a confusion. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.88.88.202 (talk) 23:57, 6 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Kashmiri and Punjabi is not really related . The Kashmiri grammar is totally different from Punjabi. Punjabi follows SOV pattern while Kashmiri doesn't. Tariq Ahmed Bhat (talk) 17:47, 24 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Tariq Ahmed Bhat: (i guess i won't bother pinging the ip addresses)

As far as i can gather (as a very curious but mostly bewildered Australian), "Punjabi" seems to be a huge dialect continuum, or possibly even a group of completely different languages, not all of which are mutually intelligible with each other, but some of which are mutually intelligible with Hindi and Urdu? Could this diversity within Punjabi explain some if the differing opinions on similarity? (Though i get impression that identity plays a bigger role than intelligibility in what counts as a language.)
though another comment above confused me, which foreigners would have motives to link Kashmiri to Punjabi? and why? I can see there being motives to link Kashmiri to India or Pakistan, but the Punjabi languages span both. So i'm stumped. [Though a lot of people on here seem strangely invested in Hindi and Urdu being one language called the Hindustani language for reasons i cannot fathom.]

Irtapil (talk) 16:51, 27 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Irtapil Connecting the Kashmiri language with Punjabi is a tactic used by both the countries that only a Kashmiri can understand. By making Kashmiri look like more of an Indic language, both India and Pakistan can achieve a greater claim on the area. The usual Kashmiri sees his language as totally alien to both India and Pakistan. Hindi and Urdu are often regarded as the same language as their grammar and basic vocabulary is almost entirely the same. The difference is, that Hindi borrows most of its complex words from Sanskrit, while Urdu does so with Persian and Arabic, a difference caused by race. An even greater problem with Kashmiri is that the Muslims speak a highly Persianised Kashmiri, while the Hindus speak a very Sanskrit-like Kashmiri. This gives the impression of Kashmiri being an Indic or Iranian language to some, while none speaks pure Kashmiri. Such pure language doesn't even exist, as due to the lack of many words due to isolation, a lot many words had to be borrowed from Hindustani or Persian or Sanskrit. The linking of Kashmiri with Punjabi is hence a tactic used by both the nations to establish a base. Say, if Kashmiris were totally Iranians and spoke a totally Iranic language, what true claim would the countries have on it? After the fake Indian-isation of Kashmiri, Pakistan claims the territory for being Muslim while India claims it out of official documents. Tariq Ahmed Bhat Kashmiri01 (talk) 06:35, 5 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Small expansion required: be more specific about Persian scripts[edit]

The article says Persian scripts. It is not clear which scripts are meant (if several). Only the Persian Arabic script? --Imz 17:49, 23 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

@Imz: on the remote possibility you are still interested fifteen years later, the consonants appear to be identical to the Urdu alphabet.Irtapil (talk) 16:51, 27 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]


Wikipedia:Naming conventions (Indic)[edit]

Kashmiri is surely an Aryan language like Punjabi but very dissimilar from Punjabi. A Punjabi can not understand Kashmiri. While the language spoken outside the Valley in Mirpur, etc. is very close to Punjabi.

The insertion of Punjabi or Sindhi into Kashmir is a big political game being played by some foreigners. All know who they are. Many languages in India and neighborhood have Aryan origin thus have similarities. However, Kashmiri is very close to Rigvedic Sanskrit. A Kashmiri can not for example understand Punjabi or vice versa. The Kashmiri language is an Aryan language. By large pretty close to Rig-vedic Sanskrit. There are however minor differences between the language spoken by Hindus and the Muslims in the Valley. After the arrival of Islam it picked up some Arabic words which Muslims tend to use more often than Hindus. Example a Muslim refers to fire as Nar, while a traditional Hindu refers to it as Agun. The Muslim uses the word Safar for travel again a traditional Hindu uses the word Yatra. Some commonly used words in Kashmiri language; nov-new, nas-nose,and-end, lot-light, pod-footstep, nangu-naked, achh-eye, dand-tooth,domb-womb, zut-cut, shurt-short, pad-feet, badnaam-badname, Lalla-Lullaby, etc. Thus very pure Aryan in origin/fontKASHMIRI LANGUAGE AND RIGVEDIC SANSKRIT — Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.88.88.173 (talk) 18:29, 27 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Kashmiri is an Indo-Aryan language of Dardic group. No Turanic people (it is also an Aryan group like the Kashmirs) originated in Kashmir. This is part of a disinformation effort to slowly change the history of this region. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.246.118.51 (talk) 21:40, 14 May 2009 (UTC) [reply]

Help add input for Wikipedia:Naming conventions (Indic)

translators needed at Wikipedia:WikiProject India/Translation[edit]

Wikipedia:WikiProject India/Translation--D-Boy 19:30, 21 November 2006 (UTC) English kashmiri Editing by gul wani from greece urdu fire zung aage Water poine pani House -- ler—means- empty huse -gare-with-family makan Wood leker lakade Fire wood zune balen He hoe who Me mea muje Go gove gaya giveUs usede hum Leg zange taang[reply] 

Carpet          Kaleen                                  			 	Galeecha
                      Namda
 Rug              	Gabbe

Patage 

                      Sakule
                      Sangieg
 tate                     Wugoo,Wug                         				 chatai

Samoke - dohe dowana Station,place - ade adda Place - jaie jaga 

Axe     ---	m’akus—khard-kharde-                			kulhaadie

Love - loal + mohabbat pyar Remember - maai yaad —Preceding unsigned comment added by 178.128.164.167 (talk) 02:58, 20 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Re:this[edit]

The Kashmiri language is an Aryan language. By large close to Rig-vedic Sanskrit. There are however minor differences between the language spoken by Hindus and the Muslims. After the arrival of Islam it picked up some Arabic words which Muslims tend to use more often than Hindus. Example a Muslim refers to fire as Nar, while a traditional Hindu refers to it as Agun. the Muslim uses the word Safar for travel again a traditional Hindu uses the word Yatra. Some commonly used words in Kashmiri language; nov-new, nas-nose,and-end, lot-light, pod-footstep, nangu-naked, achh-eye, dand-tooth,domb-womb, zut-cut, shurt-short, etc. Thus very pure Aryan in origin. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.88.88.155 (talk) 23:13, 14 October 2010 (UTC) It should be Kashmiri language- chaat-cut and not zut, meine-mine and so on.[reply]

I have also reverted a few good faith edits in this case, such as this one. These good faith edits were essentially efforts to revert to the original content. But since there were other edits that were vandalism or a copyright violation, and the good faith edits were saying the same thing as the version I was reverting to anyway, I simply reverted. --Kuaichik (talk) 04:42, 28 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

For a good bunch of reasons ('s' preservation even better than IA, shared met/ep tendencies, etc) linguists come down pretty much in favor of an IA classification. Also, any Northern IA speaker (Punjabi, Lehnda, Hindko) tends to have easier on-ramps into Dardic languages even like Pashai than Persian speakers do afaik (see vocab lists). That said, saying Kashmiri is very close to Rig Vedic automatically makes it pretty close to Avestan Persian too. Remember that ancient East Iranian speakers could likely pretty easily access the Vedic scriptures and the two languages are (shockingly) close - so close that due to limited number of texts in Avestan, Avestan scholars often learn Vedic Sanskrit to deepen their understanding. From An Avesta grammar in comparison with Sanskrit and The Avestan alphabet and its transcription:

The language of the Avesta is most closely allied to the Sanskrit, though individually quite distinct from the latter. Together they may be classed as making up an Indo-Iranian group. Almost any Sanskrit word may be changed at once into its Avestan equivalent, or vice versa, merely by applying certain phonetic laws. As example may be taken the metrical stanza Yt. 10.6 in the Avesta:
tem amavantem yazatem
surem damohu seviytem
mithrem yazai zaothrabyo
'Mithra that strong mighty angel, most beneficent to all creatures, I will worship with libations'- becomes when rendered word for word in Sanskrit:
tam amavantam yajatam
yuram dhamasu yavistham
mitram yajai hotrabhyah

Interesting as this IndoAryan vs Iranian discussion is today, it would have seemed ridiculous to Vedic and Avestan speakers themselves. --Hunnjazal (talk) 04:12, 7 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

@Hunnjazal: what's the political motive of the debate?
  • Iranian = Kashmir belongs with Pakistan and their Persian filled Urdu?
  • Aryan = Kashmir belongs with India and their allegedly more "pure" Sanskrit derived Hindi language?
or am i way off?
and what is going on with the debate about whether Kashmiri is related to the Punjabi dialect continuum? I cannot fathom a motive for that.
Irtapil (talk) 16:51, 27 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]


not Indo-Aryan?[edit]

Kashmiri was usually counted as being Indo-Aryan. But according to the article it's not? --Maurice45 (talk) 20:18, 1 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Kashmiri is NOT an Indo-Aryan language. It's a Dardic language, and the Dardic languages were once considered to be an Indo-Aryan subgroup but now have been defined as a separate group of Indo-Iranian languages, along with the Iranian, Indo-Aryan and Nuristani languages. If it has alot of similarities with Indo-Aryan, its because it has done a good job of preserving archaic Indo-Iranian linguistic features, like Indo-Aryan. Easily explained by its isolated existence in the mountains for thousands of years. Pashto, an Iranian language, has also been found in some studies to have preserved some archaic Indo-Iranian features in its more isolated dialects, thus why it was originally mistaken for an Indo-Aryan language by some linguists in the 19th century. Indo-Aryan did a better job of preserving elements of the Indo-Iranian languages than the Iranian branch, and thus those elements have been taken by some people to be characteristic of the Indo-Aryan languages exclusively. Their existence in isolated sub-groups understandably causes some confusion. But it should be cleared up. But yes, Kashmiri is Dardic. Afghan Historian (talk) 17:08, 16 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The Dardic languages bear similarities to Indo-Aryan languages because they ARE Indo-Aryan languages. They are an archaic branch of IA which have preserved many elements of OIA which no longer exist in other IA languages. It's only the Nuristani (formerly Kafiri) languages which were eventually split off to form their own branch. Contemporary linguists agree that there's absolutely no controversy with regards to Kashmiri, or the rest of the Dardic languages, being part of the Indo-Aryan family Theudariks 2.0 (talk) 15:03, 18 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Looks like it is Indo-Aryan after all as are all Dardic languages --Maurice45 (talk) 13:41, 20 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Dardic languages bear similarities with Indo-Aryan for two reasons — The Dardic Himalayan region and the Indo-Aryan plains are very close. Moreover , Dards were ardent Hindus for a long while , Sanskritic traditions were borrowed hence. Tariq Ahmed Bhat (talk) 17:32, 24 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Autonym orthography[edit]

In the main article the name کٲشُر appears odd in my browser (Opera). The damma (U+064F) doesn't display properly. It looks like an í (i with acute). Is anyone else experience similar mojibake effects?—Strabismus (talk) 01:42, 14 December 2008 (UTC) the afgan writer.knows about his own languages alphabet. which alfabet thay use wen afghanistans name was khurasaan no —Preceding unsigned comment added by 46.12.15.248 (talk) 19:00, 21 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Sources on Kashmiri language[edit]

A Vocabulary of the Kashmírí Language: In Two Parts : Kashmírí-English, and English-Kashmírí By William Jackson Elmslie

http://books.google.com/books?id=yZACAAAAQAAJ&printsec=frontcover&source=gbs_ge_summary_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q&f=false

A grammar of the Kashmīrī language: as spoken in the valley of Kashmīr, North India By Thomas Russell Wade

http://books.google.com/books?id=sh4YAAAAYAAJ&printsec=frontcover&source=gbs_ge_summary_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q&f=false

A Dictionary of Kashmiri Proverbs & Sayings: Explained and Illustrated from the Rich and Interesting Folklore of the Valley By James Hinton Knowles

http://books.google.com/books?id=PV4UAAAAYAAJ&printsec=frontcover&source=gbs_ge_summary_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q&f=false

A dictionary of Kashmiri proverbs, explained by J.H. Knowles By Kashmiri proverbs

http://books.google.com/books?id=n_MIAAAAQAAJ&printsec=frontcover&source=gbs_ge_summary_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q&f=false

The Kaçmiraçabdamrta; a Kaçmiri grammar written in the Sanskrit language (1898)

https://archive.org/details/kamiraabdamr00isvauoft

A dictionary of the Kashmiri language . Compiled partly from materials left by the late Pandita Isvara Kaula. Assisted by Mahamahopadhyaya Mukundarama Sastri (1916)

https://archive.org/details/dictionaryofkash01grieuoft

Gulzr-i Kashmr (1873)

https://archive.org/details/gulzrikashmr00rainuoft

Rajmaan (talk) 23:26, 6 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

@Rajmaan: thanks. Irtapil (talk) 16:51, 27 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]


External links modified[edit]

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Writing systems[edit]

I have moved the "Writing systems" section down because the huge alphabet tables were swamping the article. I also notice that all these tables seem to be recent script-warring by IP editors, with no sources, no explanatory text or any discussion. Unless somebody can explain to me why these script tables are needed, I propose to delete them. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 12:27, 21 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@Kautilya3: i think they should be improved rather than deleted. i'll try to find some sources to check against, starting with those suggested above by @Rajmaan:. Remind me on my talk page if i don't get to it soon. Irtapil (talk) 15:01, 27 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Kautilya3: what are "IP editors"? Irtapil (talk) 16:51, 27 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The same as anonymous editors. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 17:10, 27 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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Incorrect code sequence[edit]

The table describing the Kashmiri vowels uses a combination of characters for ॲ (but not for ऑ). The combination is अ + ॅ [U+0905 DEVANAGARI LETTER A + U+0945 DEVANAGARI VOWEL SIGN CANDRA E]. This is clearly an error - no normalisation process makes those equivalent, since they represent different syllables. R12a (talk) 10:02, 22 June 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@R12a: has this been fixed yet? if not, can you edit the table? if there's a reason you can't edit the table, can you explain bit further, so i can edit it, i don't quite understand what you mean. Irtapil (talk) 15:05, 27 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

some characters don't work in the assigned fonts[edit]

The tables create the positional forms using the extension character U+0640 Arabic Tatweel, but tatweel doesn't work in some fonts, including "Urdu typesetting", the most common font connected to the nastaliq template. I tried swapping for a zero width joiner, but some of the letters themselves aren't even in the fonts assigned to the nastaliq template. i might try just removing the nastaliq formatting templates to see if it works better in whatever it defaults to. Irtapil (talk) 15:19, 27 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

it really should have language tags, but i'm not sure which, given it's a language with multiple scripts.

  • How do i define a script for lang|ks template? does that template work well?
  • Do lang|ar Arabic, lang|fa Farsi, or lang|ur Urdu work better where it's just isolated characters?
  • or is it better to have no lang| templates?

Irtapil (talk) 15:32, 27 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

quite a few of these characters are missing from many of the fonts attached to the nastaliq template, the page using the naastaliq template means i'm seeing some characters in Urdu Typesetting and others in Arial, which means they don't connect to each other properly and the words and digraphs look completely wrong. I think a lot of other users will be seeing something similarly confusing. Does Kashmiri even use the Nastaliq writing style? Irtapil (talk) 15:32, 27 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Pinging the non-anonymous non-bots on this talk page for input @Tariq Ahmed Bhat, Imz, Kuaichik, Maurice45, Hunnjazal, Strabismus, Kautilya3, R12a, Rajmaan, and Afghan Historian:

I think i somewhat improved it?

  • I replaced the nastaliq template with Kashmiri language lang|ks template in the vowel table. This displays better for me, what do others see?
  • I left the nastaliq template in place for the consonant tables, they seem to be all shared with the Urdu alphabet? so they'll be present and functional in all nastaliq fonts.

Irtapil (talk) 16:51, 27 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Extremely verbose page, needs shortening[edit]

This page has become extremely verbose providing too much detail. I'd suggest moving certain sections to different pages altogether, like the ones on the various scripts which are long tables, and shortening the ones detailing grammar. Another worthwhile approach is to provide a summary of the phonology, grammar, and scripts here and have separate pages for all of these with as much detail as is required. At the very least, the tables should be properly formatted and not be this long. Sinonquoi (talk) 12:41, 23 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Tables gotten out of hand[edit]

This page has somehow acquired huge tables, making it entirely unreadable. Can somebody get them under control? -- Kautilya3 (talk) 14:36, 24 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

History[edit]

Make a list of the language mentioned by Amir khusrsu . Prepare another list of names of language spoken today in the region be mentioned.underline names that are similar and circle those that are different. 2409:4073:4E94:596C:79B1:4733:46AC:48DF (talk) 12:55, 30 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

CSP: diff[edit]

@Uanfala: Cambridge Scholars Publishers is a predatory/vanity press, and should not be cited. Iranica Online is already there, we don't need another less reliable source for the same information. Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 12:42, 8 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  • It would be really helpful to get the facts straight before edit warring. As clear even from our wikipedia article, Cambridge Scholars Publishing are *not* a predatory publisher: they sell books, they don't prey on the authors. A publisher of low editorial standards though? Yes. Which means they should be avoided if there are more reliable alternatives available and probably shouldn't be used for very controversial claims, but that doesn't mean they must be removed on sight. The CSP text you insist on throwing away is actually better than a lot of the other references in this article (which are newspapers, websites, researchgate drafts, theses...).
    Yes, the relevant sentence in the article also cites Encyclopedia Iranica. Have you checked that source to see whether it supports the entirety of the content in our text? If yes, then the CSP book is strictly speaking not necessary. But as far as I can see, it still has value as one of the rare sociolinguistic studies of Kashmiri, and it may be used elsewhere in the article. Just because it's been published by a press that's not among the best out there doesn't mean it's bad. – Uanfala (talk) 13:12, 8 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    "A publisher of low editorial standards"
    Exactly. We should not cite this. Especially when we have better sources. See WP:VANPRED. Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 13:21, 8 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    Cambridge Scholars Publishing is not a vanity press. Please do not spread misinformation. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 15:59, 8 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    It is a vanity press by every meaningful definition of the term. Anyone can publish with them, at no charge, and they do not meaningfully review the submissions. Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 17:43, 8 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    See RFC at the RSN: Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard#Cambridge Scholars Publishing Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 18:15, 8 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Phonology clarification[edit]

Hey! It would be nice to get some clarification on the phonology section in this article. I know sourcing for languages is often hard, but I'm intrigued by the just passing mention of palatalization; to my mind that's a pretty major language feature, yet it isn't alluded to anywhere in the rest of the article besides the table entry for the gol yayuk letter. 67.82.172.25 (talk) 07:43, 5 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

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