Talk:Kidney stone disease/Archive 1

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When someone developes a kidney stone, how does it affect the rest of the body? [homeostasis perhaps?]

A bigger stone poses a much greater risk. Stones bigger than 4mm can potentially get lodged in the urinary tract. A lodged stone can collect more minerals and grow. It can block urinary flow and lead to urinary infections. It also can produce hydronephrosis and intefere with the ability of the kidney to concentrate urine and ultimately to a loss of kidney function.

An infection in the kidney can be hard to treat. If treatment is not received in time an infection can spread to nearby organs and cause sepsis. A stone can even cause a kidney to swell up and eventually rupture the system of collecting tubes.

Hope that answers your question. Greg Marlow Uriflow Specialist

For kidney stones, what other clinical diagnostic medical laboratories besides LithoLink are used by clinical specialists in urology and nephrology? Or for USA clinicians does that lab represent the gold standard? unsigned

Kidney Stone Type and Density

I have a 9mm stone at the exit point of the kidney into the ureter. I will have a procedure that electonrically 'pulverizes' the stone (hopefully). The problem is that the stone could be of a hardness that it cracks in half rather than gets pulverized into sand size particles. Is there a way to determine the hardness of a stone before deciding which procedure makes the most sense for removal? Also, will my next stone be the same hardness, or does one stone not tell the story of the next, necessarily? Sometimes you can tell how easily a stone will fracture from its X-ray appearance. Although calcium oxalate is the most common component of kidney stones this chemical takes two different forms. The dihydrate which has large delicate crystals is easily fractured whereas the monohydrate is more dense and therefore harder to fracture.

High calcium as a cause?

The article contradicts itself as far as calcium being a cause of kidney stones.

From (Secondary Prevention) "There is no convincing evidence that calcium supplements increase the risk of stone formation."

But in (Addition Information) we find "Astronauts often get kidney stones because of an increase in the amount of calcium in their blood due to a loss of bone density in zero gravity."

If an increase in calcium doesn't cause kidney stones, from where does the astronaut information come?

Quoted: "Astronauts often get kidney stones because of an increase in the amount of calcium in their blood due to a loss of bone density in zero gravity."

As you've quoted, astronauts get kidney stones due to increased bone loss not due to increased calcium supplement intake. In addition to that is their abnormal urinary cycle.

Don't know if this related to astronaut 's case

I read in Readers Digest that it comes from a high protein diet.Lots of Calcium is produced to alkalinize the high acidity of protein or protein products.--Jondel 00:28, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

Calcium supplements are something completely different from raised blood calcium levels due to increased bone loss. An increased dietary calcium intake does not necessarily lead to increased blood calcium levels. The body has mechanisms controlling the absorption of calcium from the gut, thus regulating blood calcium levels. So this isn't a contradiction. --WS 17:34, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

Uncited,unverifiable

The following was removed. Verification, extra research, etc would be appreciated on this.--Jondel 00:54, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

For added information about non-medical kidney stone removal, please consult the web site www.jumpandbump.com. This site details the use of gravity and a special technique to aid the movement of the stone down the ureter and into the bladder.

Sitcom References

Have any of you noticed that a common feature in sitcoms is to have a guy get kidney stones while a woman he knows (maybe his wife) is in the hospital giving birth? Or if it is like the Seinfeld episode it isn't in a hospital. But the thing I have noticed is they always show it as being a short process to pass the stones. I have had them, and they can take a long time to pass - sometimes weeks to be completely passed. --Kalmia 08:18, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

Tea and kidney stones

There are conflicting reports about the effect of tea on the development of kidney stones. UMM article "This study found no effects from coffee, tea, or wine, but other research has reported a lower risk with these beverages."

DISSOLVING KIDNEY STONES

My 14 year old nephew recently developed kidney stones from drinking too much soda pop. His succesful treatment consisted of stopping the soda and having him drink apple cider vinegar. Apparently the acid in the vinegar dissolved the type of stones he had. I do not know what type of stones he had or have any other information. Perhaps someone can research this.:User:68.12.236.142 14:35, 18 September 2006 Miguel

Wikipedia is not the place to do research (WP:NOR), but report on external citable sources of information. Good point to start for medical topics is PubMed. "kidney stone vinegar" just 2 non-specific hits, "calculi vinegar" a little more promising, see PMID 1637908 - ignore the direct mention of vinegar to external skin of urostomy wounds to neutralise alkaline irritation, but next sentance states "Internal methods of treatment that are advocated in the literature include ingestion of cranberry juice and ascorbic acid to promote urine acidity". A search on "calculi acetic" yields further hits, but unfortunately few have listed abstracts. David Ruben ^Talk 14:12, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

FYI, cranberry juice is also high in oxalates, so that's probably not something you want to use when treating calcium oxalate kidney stones. See: Cranberry Ups Kidney Stone Risk -- 70.20.168.170 20:08, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

For (at least) calcium oxalate stones, patients are advised to reduce urine acidity. That's why cola soft drinks are to be avoided -- they contain phosphoric acid. And I don't think that any modern doctor thinks that you can "dissolve" kidney stones. Instead, drink lots of water to rinse them away before that become too large. — goethean ॐ 14:18, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

Calcium stones cannot be dissolved. Uric acid and cystine stones CAN be dissolved. Ingestion of vinegar, which is acetic acid, actually has no effect on acid-base balance; therefore no effect on pH of blood or urine. It would not be helpful for stones. Though an acid, the acetate (the anion or negatively charged molecule accompanying the H+ or proton) is metabolized to base or alkali: bicarbonate. So orange juice or lemonade, which have low pH can actually alkalinize the urine because not all of the citrate is citric acid. Citric acid is also an organic acid like acetic acid and will not affect urine pH. But some of the citrate in OJ and lemon juice is accompanying potassium, not protons. That citrate will be metabolized to bicarbonate and have an alkalinizing effect. Citrate helps prevent stones by binding calcium and alkalinizing the urine to increase pH and prevent uric acid stones.---David S. Goldfarb, M.D.

Celebrity Kidney Stones

Do we 'really' need a section on famous kidney stones? Most of the entries are uncited and unverifiable, and it looks like an indiscriminate collection of information to me. Miraculouschaos 17:22, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

The section should be cleaned up but I don't oppose it in principle. The entries about Montaigne and Pepys should be kept. — goethean ॐ 19:47, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

Such trivia section is inappropriate for this article. However I can see the amount of effort required in compiling such list and reluctantly moved contents to a new article instead of deleting them.--Countincr ^{( t@lk )} 14:25, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

occurance?

how many ppl get them? Cannibalicious! 10:42, 24 December 2006 (UTC)

deleted uncited questionable research

I've deleted a paragraph which was plagiarized from this website, which does not look at all like an authoritative resource on kidney stones:

http://www.youqa.cn/html/Alternative_Medicine/medicine/152597.html

If the claims are true, let's get them cited from a good source shall we?

I've been trying to add in sources. Some of the information is proving difficult to verify, unfortunately. E.g. per the "Causes" intro, what lab urine tests are routinely run for conditions of kidney stone patients? But I'll keep looking.—RJH (talk) 17:33, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

Research on Calculus Kinetics R.O.C.K. Society

Where are there listings of members of the Research on Calculus Kinetics R.O.C.K. Society?...
--the zak 03:52, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

Comprehensive Kidney Stone Diagnostic Panel LabCorp test # 242339

Stephen W. Leslie M.D. advocates for the Comprehensive Kidney Stone Diagnostic Panel LabCorp test # 242339 --the zak (talk) 08:20, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

High protein intake as a risk factor for uric acid stones

201.17.56.112 (talk) 03:41, 16 May 2008 (UTC)Carlos Daniel Llosa

The final end product of protein metabolism is urea, not uric acid. Uric acid is the final end product of purine metabolism, not protein metabolism. However, meat is probably quite high on purines, so if by "high protein diet" one means a diet high on meat, then maybe this could cause uric acid stones. Also, there are some other acids that are the result of protein metabolism, chronic acidosis could result in uric acid precipitation, caused by urine acidification. Anyways, uric acid has nothing to do with protein metabolism, this should be corrected.I don't know the source used to back this up, but there must have been a confusion somewhere.

Baseball & Kidney Stones

While looking for notable people who have had kidney stones, I came up with a decent-sized list of pro baseball players: Tony Gwynn, Dennis Cook, Joe Mauer, Rich Aurilia, Whitey Kurowski, Tony Fernandez, Derek Bell, Jay Payton, Tim Salmon and Josh Willingham. That's more than in all the other sports categories combined. Perhaps it is because baseball is played in Summer? But the same can be said of golf, and I only found two names there: Davis Love III and Bernhard Langer. Any idea why there's such an apparent correlation between baseball and kidney stones? I couldn't find any studies on the topic.—RJH (talk) 20:04, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

It does seem statistically significant, now doesn't it? Well, let's speculate. 1) BB players don't drink enough water because they don't run as aggressively nor frequently as athletes in other sports --- no exertion-stimulus to make their mouths feel dry enough to force drinking. 2) BB players chew tobacco --- maybe something in the leaves, maybe tobacco chewers drink too little water. 3) BB players sit on the bench a lot --- hot, dry, no movement. 4) BB players stand around a lot out in the hot and dry field. 5) BB players eat a lot of sunflower seeds --- salty nuts that contain calcium oxalate. Who can say? All I know is that drinking water is probably the key to the whole stone thing. --137.186.242.12 (talk) 18:50, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

Makes sense. I hadn't heard about the possibility of chewing tobacco reducing thirst.—RJH (talk) 15:25, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

Rename article to renal calculi?

I know this article mentions the term renal calculi in the opening sentence, and there is a redirect from it as well. However, renal calculi is the correct term for kidney stones, and there is precedent for calling commonly known conditions by their medical name (article on heart attack is called myocardial infarction). What do people think? 78.86.59.175 (talk) 20:30, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

I think it would make sense first to gain a general consensus for medical article naming conventions under Wikipedia:Naming conventions. You could, for example, try raising that as a topic under Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Medicine. But personally I have no issue with the suggested rename.—RJH (talk) 22:45, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

The primary entry in ICD-10 is "Calculus of kidney", and the primary entry in MeSH is "Kidney calculi", so I'd recommend renaming the "stone" but not the "kidney". --Arcadian (talk) 02:17, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

I firmly oppose this: the term kidney stone is unambiguous and medical jargon adds nothing to it: per WP:JARGON, we should keep it as simple as possible. This is contrary to heart attack which is a phrase used to describe various acute coronary syndromes by patients but myocardial infarction by doctors. WP:MEDMOS also has some guidance on this, I think. Moreover, the title is an important determinant of our search engine ranking. --Steven Fruitsmaak (Reply) 07:27, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

The MEDMOS policy states "The article title should be the scientific or recognised medical name rather than the lay term..." and "Where there are lexical differences between the varieties of English, an international standard should be sought." --Arcadian (talk) 12:52, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

[shift left] Based on google scholar searches:

• "calculus of kidney" 144 ghits
• "kidney stone" 8,690 ghits
• "kidney calculi" 11,100 ghits
• "renal calculi" 14,100 ghits

The last looks like the winner, based on scholarly article count. I don't think that wikipedia's search engine ranking should be relevant to the title name. A proper web crawler searches the article body for matching terms.—RJH (talk) 21:28, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

Of course wikipedia strives to make articles as widely accessible as possible, but as they MESH/ICD-10 headings demonstrate, kidney stone is not the correct, or most technically accurate name. As the MEDMOS policy states "The article title should be the scientific or recognised medical name...", which it currently is not. I accept that the decision over what it should be renamed to is not immediately obvious, but I think this should be pursued. I will as suggested try raising a topic under Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Medicine. 78.86.59.175 (talk) 13:00, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

"Calculi" is plural for "calculus", and to me this would exclude "calculi" from being part of the title. If this article discusses the entire disease process, and it seems to, then the medical terminology would actually be nephrolithiasis. Antelan^talk 14:38, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

Again: that's simply medical jargon for 'kidney stones', it adds nothing to this description. --Steven Fruitsmaak (Reply) 14:44, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

You're conflating the two. While this article's title suggests it is simply about kidney stones, the article content is also about nephrolithiasis. These are two different things. Nephrolithiasis is a condition that occurs when there are stones present in the kidney. Kidney stones are objects that may either be in the kidney (during nephrolithiasis) or may not be (after removal). This encyclopedia could in theory handle articles on both subject matters. However, as things stand, this article itself has also conflated the two. Antelan^talk 14:57, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

Kidney Stones and abdominal pain

I have had kidney stones as a teenager and they were extremely painful in the groin area. Like being kicked in the groin by a horse. And now, 20 years later, I have kidney stones again and this time my pain started in my upper abdomen and now the pain has moved to my back. Why am I having such a different experience this time around? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.25.170.22 (talk) 21:19, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

IIRC, flank pain can come from a stone in the kidney, whereas pain in the groin may be from a stone in the bladder. But a doctor, particularly a urologist, would be able to find out for certain.—RJH (talk) 21:23, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

Common high-Oxalate foods

I noticed that a rather lengthy table was added to this page. It seems a little above the call for an encyclopedic article to carry this level of detail. Perhaps it could be placed in a contractable table of some sort?—RJH (talk) 15:23, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

That entire section is completely unreferenced. — goethean ॐ 17:59, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

Well there's a reference on the table. But the whole thing seems a bit overdone, and it's redundant with a bullet in the prior section.—RJH (talk) 21:33, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

Image needed?

I've just expelled a 6 mm kidney stone, if any particular image is needed I could shot it.--84.222.213.204 (talk) 22:42, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

You could post it to: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Kidney_stone . Thanks.—RJH (talk) 15:02, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

Why do kidney stones occur?

I wonder why some kidney stones occur in some peoples urinary system? i just wonder why that is so? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.226.37.124 (talk) 22:42, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

highly effective solution and preventative

Drinking Kangen water or some other highly alkalized water completely dissolves many if not all kidney stones, and certainly prevents more from forming. This fact ought to be included for the sake of all those people suffering from the terrible pain caused by kidney stones as well as the allopathic medical establishment's ignorance or rejection of the simple solution to many ills: drinking water with a pH of 8.5 to 9.5. Observe how the causes of kidney stones are all acids. Having an acidic condition in the body predisposes it to innumerable degenerative and painful conditions. Drinking adequate water, especially alkalized water, goes far in creating and maintaining good health. Lori722 (talk) 02:36, 26 November 2008 (UTC)Lori722 11/25/08

Wikipedia is not the place for giving out unreferenced medical advice. If a basic solution alone solves the problem, find a reference for it.

Delving into the content of your post, I rather think that if drinking a mild basic solution were all that was necessary, that this would be common knowledge by now. I suspect you would reply that it's all simply a conspiracy by the medical establishment, which is which such a conversation would be a waste of time. --Saforrest (talk) 18:52, 28 January 2009 (UTC)

Actually, you are supposed to avoid acidic liquids if you are a kidney stone sufferer. — goethean ॐ 12:55, 4 January 2010 (UTC)

Low pH (acidic) is preferred for dissolving non-oxalate kidney stones. e.g. vitamin C (vinegar is metabolized).

what is kidney stone

Kidney stone means —Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.95.40.60 (talk) 10:21, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

neck and pain

there is a nerve between your shoulder and your neck and if you have surgery because you have paine in your shoulder and those doctors mess up and get your nerve then in your neck you'll have a reaction of burning in your neck if this happens to you try to not be in the sun that long or it will get worse. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.48.201.36 (talk) 18:02, 23 August 2009 (UTC)

And this has *WHAT* to do with Kidney Stones, exactly? Kailey elise (talk) 15:14, 12 September 2010 (UTC)

oxalate replacement??!!

yo people.. i just wanna ask about oxalate!! Is there anything that can replace oxalate??

yo.. peace out... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 60.53.241.186 (talk) 07:59, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

Size, Shape and Composition

The article describes 3 types of kidney stones, but it doesn't describe what each looks like.

I have seen pictures of smooth stones (like the tip of the femur) and jagged stones. Why is that?

Additional medicnes causing kidney stones

Is there an expanded list of drugs that cause, or likely to cause, kidney stones? Anecdotally speaking, my doctor said regarding trileptal (oxcarbazepine) to watch out for them. Six acute episodes and four years worth of stones later, I cannot seem to locate any relevant data tying the drug and this side effect. 72.231.177.30 (talk) 07:34, 3 November 2009 (UTC)s.k. clifton park NY72.231.177.30 (talk) 07:34, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

External Links

"International Kidney Stone Institute" looks like some private enterprise looking for advertising/donations. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.148.235.36 (talk) 01:35, 4 January 2010 (UTC)

I saw a kidney stone.

I drank six cups of milk per day in the past weekend and today I saw a kidney stone with a drop of blood. But today I only drank two cups this morning. Is this bad? Or is it my body's way of removing the excess of calcium? I guess I'll drink less milk then. I'll minimize it to five cups then. More information is needed in this article about "calcium oxalate stones". Yvonne Liu 17:25, 26 July 2010 (UTC)

From what I've read on the subject ,it sounds like reduced calcium intake can, ironically, result in kidney stones.[1] , I take a calcium supplement, reduce my red meat intake and drink some lemonade daily. Shrug.—RJH (talk) 20:28, 12 January 2011 (UTC)

Kidney stones are(ureterolithiasis) or (nephrolithiasis) ?

It should be noticed that at the beginning of the sentence, after kidney stones, ureterolithiasis is written in brackets.

The term nephrolithiasis can be used to describe the condition of having kidney stones, and ureterolithiasis can be used to describe the condition of having stones in the ureter, but the topic sentence seems to be unrelated with the article.

"Kidney stones (ureterolithiasis) result from stones or renal calculi (from Latin ren, renes, "kidney" and calculi, "pebbles")[1] in the ureter. "

This sentence may be need to alter as follow:

"Kidney stones (nephrolithiasis) result from stones or renal calculi (from Latin ren, renes, "kidney" and calculi, "pebbles")[1] in the kidney."

• --Dr.S.Senthivelraj 07:16, 13 October 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Drsrisenthil (talk • contribs)