Talk:List of Serbs of Croatia/Archive 1

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Archive 1

A caution

Unresolved

Note that spurious identification of living people as "Serbs of Croatia" may be problematic, and since WP:BLP applies, in 48 hours I'll remove all living people from this list, unless there is an inline reference to a reliable source next to their respective names.

I've already warned against the practice of adding people to these kind of lists based on guesswork and unreliable information (see Talk:Serbs of Croatia#"Notable individuals" section needs references), but unfortunately little has been done about it, and this has been going on for too long. GregorB (talk) 20:19, 26 March 2014 (UTC)

So who exactly are you talking about?--Zoupan 20:05, 27 March 2014 (UTC)
You mean which list entries? GregorB (talk) 20:23, 27 March 2014 (UTC)
Removed all living people. Per WP:LISTPEOPLE, editors are free to challenge and remove unsourced entries for non-living people too. GregorB (talk) 13:00, 28 March 2014 (UTC)
You removed several articles that have refs.--Zoupan 23:08, 9 April 2014 (UTC)
Zoupan, no entries were removed that had inline refs. Per WP:BLPSOURCES, inline refs must be used. GregorB (talk) 02:23, 18 April 2014 (UTC)
Still, I think you are very unproductive; this "criteria" is not met in other people lists — you could add {{verification needed}} to the entries, and not remove them. --Zoupan 08:13, 19 April 2014 (UTC)
I understand how you feel, but please consider what WP:BLPSOURCES says:
Wikipedia's sourcing policy, Verifiability, says that all quotations and any material challenged or likely to be challenged must be attributed to a reliable, published source using an inline citation; material not meeting this standard may be removed. This policy extends that principle, adding that contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced should be removed immediately and without discussion. This applies whether the material is negative, positive, neutral, or just questionable, and whether it is in a biography or in some other article.
This applies to all lists of living people, even if it's not enforced in all of them. And yes, I could have tagged these entries, but that would have been the wrong thing to do.[1] Per WP:LISTPEOPLE, I could have removed even more entries, but that would have effectively killed the entire article, so I chose not to. GregorB (talk) 10:43, 19 April 2014 (UTC)
I've just noticed that you've undone the deletion. Please don't do that. Unsourced entries for living people should stay out of the list. You are free (as is anyone else) to reintroduce them with inline refs. GregorB (talk) 10:48, 19 April 2014 (UTC)

Aca Srbin, I just nuked the entire Sports/Active section and I hereby invite you to read the above discussion. GregorB (talk) 21:51, 28 June 2015 (UTC)

GregorB Do you have any real reason to remove the entries? You call upon WP:BLPSOURCES but fail to explain why the entries would be questionable. Most notably, you have removed Serbian nationals born in Croatia. Could you please direct me to a similar list which follows your rules? You earlier mentioned "editors are free to challenge", so what are you challenging here?--Zoupan 22:04, 28 June 2015 (UTC)
You've explained the point of contention yourself: this is not a list of Serbian nationals born in Croatia. Being a Serb national is not the same as being a Serb, and being a Serb who happens to be born in Croatia does not make a person one of "Serbs of Croatia". Implications about someone's ethnic background qualify as non-trivial w.r.t. WP:BLP, and definitely fall under its purview. I wouldn't mind an unsourced entry or two, but entire sections based more or less on loose inferential reasoning ("Serb national and born in Croatia - yeah, a Serb of Croatia") are not really constructive nor reliable, and only invite more entries of the same reliability. I don't need to point you to a "similar list", because that's really nothing more than WP:OTHERSTUFF, and these are definitely not "my" rules. GregorB (talk) 18:10, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
And surely you don't believe that this somehow trumps WP:V? GregorB (talk) 18:31, 29 June 2015 (UTC)
Anyway: this article is on my watchlist. I'll return in a month and delete unreferenced sections with living people - only this time they'll stay out. GregorB (talk) 16:27, 8 July 2015 (UTC)

Are refs OK now?

Zoupan, was there a particular reason to remove {{refimprove}} from a section on living people that is barely referenced?[2] There are 63 entries, out of which exactly three are referenced - is that acceptable sourcing these days?

Anyway, my patience has just run out, so I'm going to remove unreferenced entries of living people once and for all, and it is going to stay that way. Should there be any reinsertions, I'm not going to revert them, I'll report them straight to WP:BLPN. Please note that discretionary sanctions may apply per WP:ARBMAC. GregorB (talk) 08:47, 24 November 2015 (UTC)

Those living people, representing Croatia, are now referenced. Don't be unconstructive; read carefully: any material challenged or likely to be challenged must be attributed to a reliable, published source. There is no challenging of the entries, so stop it, it is not a battleground. Do not remove entries which are within this list's scope.--Zoupan 09:41, 24 November 2015 (UTC)
Ethnic background is inherently sensitive WP:BLP-wise, which is the reason it must be referenced, and "I heard it somewhere" stuff about living people has to be removed on the spot. This is as much as I'm prepared to argue right now, I don't intend to repeat what I've already said here and elsewhere.
This is not a personal grudge, ideological disagreement or a content dispute, but a matter of wiki policies, so your "battleground" remark is off the mark. GregorB (talk) 10:54, 24 November 2015 (UTC)
Don't be silly, you know very well that these entries are no "heard it somewhere" stuff; the battleground remark is exactly what it is — no challenging, obviously, of people that are undoubtedly ethnic Serbs (You don't need to cite it), most of which have fled their homes during the war (!). Since March 2014, you have not given a simple example of challenging entry, nor claimed how this "issue", Serb ethnicity, might damage their reputation (!?), which just proves your unconstructiveness.--Zoupan 10:27, 25 November 2015 (UTC)
Please see standard editnotice template ({{Editnotice for lists of people}}) in the top of this page. I just requested that it be displayed when the article is edited. The text of the editnotice is very clear: note that it pertains to all unsourced entries, which is much stricter than my complaint (i.e. I don't intend to remove entries for non-living people). Also, it's not that there is no remedy: one has to provide reliable sources - that's simple WP:V - and that's it, problem solved.
For an illustration how issues of ethnicity are used in a highly defamatory way, see e.g. this. GregorB (talk) 12:12, 25 November 2015 (UTC)
Here's another, more recent example. GregorB (talk) 12:17, 25 November 2015 (UTC)

Unsourced entries of living people removed, with no prejudice against adding if supported by reliable sources. (Note some sources presently used, such as kurir.rs, are borderline reliable.)

I haven't removed all entries - I've left several which I feel are not reasonably disputable. Editors are free, however, to challenge and remove any and all unsourced entries.

Please note reinsertion will be reported to WP:BLPN, as already mentioned. GregorB (talk) 21:47, 8 December 2015 (UTC)

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Living people in the list

Per WP:BLPREMOVE, all editors are free to remove unsourced entries of living people on the spot. Please see the above discussion. I don't want to repeat myself for the 10th time or so, so if you'd like to revert, be sure to prepare a good argument for WP:BLPN. GregorB (talk) 08:41, 17 May 2018 (UTC)

GregorB - No problem, I will be free to remove all the people from List of people from Croatia because there are no sources for any living person - NONE. How are they are not questionable? What is the logic in leaving bunch of persons with no sources while removing others? This is clear biased editing and quoting Wiki rules for your own purposes (with questionable motivation). Prove me wrong and remove tens of people from List of people from Croatia, and I am not counting Marco Polo. Furthermore, this stance "I don't want to repeat myself for the 10th time or so" is arrogant, undemocratic and in no way in accordance with the core values of Wiki. For example, you have removed Bogdan Diklić, textbook Serb from Croatia - the man was born in Bjelovar and lived there for a number of years (and today lives in Zagreb). I agree that not just any individual should be included, but what do you expect, an interview with every person removed from the list telling us undoubtedly that they are Serbs from Croatia? On the other hand, Rade Šerbedžija is still on this very list. Why? The first setence in the article gives solid course and even though I want to, I see little reason to assume good faith, considering your previous comments on the talk page and this big edit followed with open threats in case of any removal. This is the way Croatian Wiki is or was edited (famous scandals well known in Wiki community) and I can not welcome that way of editing - not one bit. Just beacause these entries are problematic, does not mean that you are free to rampage the page while using your senior editor rights and reputation as a cover. It would be far more helpful if we were to find the references/sources as part of a joint effort. Since there was a total lack of good faith in the practice (taking aside declarative statements) one must assume double standards are at play, as seen with the removal of Savo Štrbac, another par excellence Serb from Croatia. Mm.srb (talk) 02:24, 29 December 2018 (UTC)
@Mm.srb: All right, here's how things are. List of people from Croatia is a very bad example - it is an "unfixable mess", and here I'm quoting myself.[3] Also, only minutes before I did the edit in question, I did a much more radical thing on Albanians of Croatia, where I removed the entire list[4] of 50 or so people, without regard to who of them is living and who is not. Now, you are a local so hopefully I don't have to explain further: given the current state of affairs in the Balkans, just imagine how would you feel if you had an Albanian grand-grandfather (for some of these people, it's even further in the past!), and your name suddenly publicly appeared in the list of Albanians! This is the WP:BLP concern I'm talking about, and it's not as if I had two sets of criteria and I'm specifically targeting this article.
"I don't want to repeat myself for the 10th time or so" may come across to some as arrogant, but please note the history of this talk page, as well as Serbs of Croatia - I've been explaining these basic facts for more than six years now[5], only to be routinely accused of bias, arbitrariness, despotism and whatnot - these days it's arrogance and bad faith too, I guess a sign of progress. :-) And still, nobody has been able to find a fault in what I was saying. Nobody who has been threatened with WP:BLPN here has ever said "fine then, see you there!" - I wonder why. Heck, if you attempt to edit this article, on top you'll see a banner that reads:
Please note:
This list is subject to the Biographies of living persons (lists) policy and the lists of people guideline. Please familiarize yourself with both before editing this list. In addition, note that a reliable source that justifies inclusion in this list must be provided for any new entry.
Can it be any clearer? Moreover, it is even more strict than what you're complaining against.
It is odd that you should mention the Croatian Wikipedia, because here I'm probably its #1 critic;[6] if anything, it can serve as an example of how not to do things.
Finally, I did have doubts about removing Štrbac, but in the end I realized these are false doubts and removed him anyway. The more "obvious" it is that someone in this list is a Serb, the easier it should be to find a ref that says so. With respect to ethnicity of living people (along with religious beliefs and sexual orientation, for example) there is absolutely no room for "oh it's obvious" or "I've read it somewhere", or the like. Zero information is preferred to misleading or false information. GregorB (talk) 14:35, 29 December 2018 (UTC)
1) I DO know and have read the rules, so you do not need to enlighten me. This is the very point I was making on arrogant approach. 2) I focused on the entries and tried and still want to clean the article, little by little. I think that you could make a bigger contribution on this part. By this I mean finding refs and not just deleting -That's child's play. The time it took you to make your points on the talk page could have accounted for tons of referenced edits. 3) It's much easier to quote Wiki rules as if you were some imperial judge, it's much harder and worthy to make the edits, which you as an experienced editor know pefectly well. 4) What is the logic for removing Savo Štrbac and Milan Martić? Milan Babić? It just makes no logical sence whatsoever. 5) So, List of people from Croatia is "a mess" and that sums up your argument? Marco Polo is still on the list... 5) Maybe I went to far with claims about you and Croatian Wiki, but I can only conclude that your efforts were sort of a Don Quixote's crusade. Just check the article on BiH Croats, it claims that they are "the oldest autochthonous ethnic group in the country" and this is just tip of the iceberg... Mm.srb (talk) 23:49, 29 December 2018 (UTC)
I never said you did not know the rules - you do, but that's precisely what bothers me the most. In all these years of explaining WP:BLP stuff to people, nobody ever said "gee, you're right, I didn't know that". They all know the rules, yet they invariably try to argue their way out as if they did not exist, which leaves me time and time again in a thankless position of reiterating the obvious, as if I am a master and everyone else is a noob.
The combined talk pages of this article and Serbs of Croatia, as already stated (and some others, likely), serve as an illustration of what these explanations of mine have achieved, i.e. pretty much nothing, and I have no doubt that in a month or two somebody else will come here and again pepper the list with more unsourced entries. If this is how things work on a low-volume article such as this one, one may well presume it's 10x worse with List of Croats, and that's chiefly what I meant when I said it's an "unfixable mess". I've just taken a look at it and I'm shaking my head - it has been renamed, but is still a huge mish-mash of Croatian-born people and people with Croatian ancestry, with absolutely laughable 3 (!) refs, and given its size it is not something I'd expect to see fixed any time soon. We're just individual editors on a time budget, and if we cannot make it better, we should at least try to not make it worse. GregorB (talk) 01:55, 30 December 2018 (UTC)
I can generally agree with you (especially with the last sentence) and again, I'm calling you to take a part in the effort of finding refs for the current people included and those which you have removed. Plus, I for one am not championing disregard for the rules, all I'm saying is not to be completely rigid because these things take time (very Balkanish, I know). Mm.srb (talk) 03:50, 30 December 2018 (UTC)
That's fair enough. The article is on my watchlist. I'm somewhat prone to being sidetracked, but I'll try and supply some entries here, starting from the removed ones. GregorB (talk) 14:46, 2 January 2019 (UTC)

Merge redundant list

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.
The result of this discussion was to merge. Rosalina2427 (talk to me) 19:07, 16 August 2018 (UTC)

Serbs of Croatia#Notable people should merge to this list article, since the former is a redundant, shorter embedded list.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  18:46, 29 July 2018 (UTC)

 Done Merged people to destination page. Will take care of the remaining things. Rosalina2427 (talk to me) 18:49, 16 August 2018 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
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