Talk:Lithuanian Activist Front

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Note - Lithuanian Activist Front does not meets requirements on Wikiproject:Fascism; it never declared itself fascist, never had one single strong leader to which everyone would be loyal and was more like an underground organisation meant to liberate the country; as such, it did not have many declared political goals so it is hard to say werether e.g. any kind of censorship would be present in case LAF would have been in power for longer. Some particular members of LAF, however, held some fascist ideas (such as Kazys Škirpa, former ambassador of Lithuania to Germany; he however, despite being the founder, wasn't the "sole leader" of LAF as it is in fascist organisations usually; taht might have been due to the reason that he was in Berlin while LAF itself in Lithuania also). In Lithuanian politics of XX age first half, I guess Iron Wolf movement of Augustinas Voldemaras probably had more typically fascist things, though I am not sure there.—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 213.190.42.88 (talk • contribs).

Huh User:Piotrus just entered a "revenge" teritory. It's a pitty, because from now on discussion wouldn't be a solution. For understanding where it did began (see [1]
let me explain my point - Piotrus is citing a Polish writer (he's not credited in the book as a researcher or bearer of some academic degree. In this cited page there is only one reference about Lithuanians (there are three otherabout Soviets) (and this one is about Lithuanian Clergy, that, AFIK - didn't participated in killing anyone - so it's Literature not a research). So Ladies and Gentelma let me ask one thing - does Piotus qat least have an idea, waht is this book about? I suppose not. here is the TOC of the book [2].
And waht do we see- that this one book is mostly interested in (sic!) jewish collaboration. Doesn't it sound a little bit antisemitic?--Lokyz 21:44, 11 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Reading sources[edit]

If you read link to Tadeusz Piotrowski's book, you are going to see the only mention to anti-Polish attitudes in this sentence:

There they encountered the emigre followers of former minister Kazys Škirpa, the Lithuanian deputy in Berlin known for his anti-Polish, pro-Germans orientation, as well as the followers of the former prime minister....

Yes, Kazys Škirpa is considered to be the founder of LAF, but it does not make LAF anti-Polish. You need better references. Renata 10:32, 14 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

about the book. Lately I've not seen any other such biased book, that twists facts so easily. "Škirpa was known for his anti-Polish views" without any reference. And btw, did you know, that at the time of LAF organised uprisal Škirpa was arrested in Berlin? So if this is only one reference for LAF to be anti-polonic you should rethink it's usage.
About clergy - people did not run with Wehrmacht, they did run from liberating red army and an opportunity to enjoy Siberian "resorts" (as many people did before WWII). And of course this happened not because they were collaborators with Germans. Anyway this sentence about collaboration also seems rather biased and unreferenced (you should take a look int tone) - talking about All Lithuania clergy as pro-nazi should have at least some proofs, don't you think?--Lokyz 10:37, 14 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Notes[edit]

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Bibliography items for discussion[edit]

Rough and not properly formatted yet but in the interests of advancing discussion:

Secondary sources believed to meet Eastern Europe criteria[edit]

  • Sužiedelis (2006). "Lithuanian Collaboration during the Second World War: Past Realities, Present Perceptions: Collaboration and Resistance during the Holocaust: Belarus, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania". The Mass Persecution and Murder of Jews: The Summer and Fall of. Vol. 158.2004. pp. 313–359. This presentation is in part a modified summary and collation of my studies presented in earlier venues: *;My reports
    • Foreign Saviors, Native Disciples: Perspectives on Collaboration in Lithuania, 1940–1945, presented in April 2002 at the "Reichskommissariat Ostland" conference at Uppsala University and Södertörn University College, now published in: Collaboration and Resistance during the Holocaust. Belarus, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, ed. David Gaunt et al *;My articles in Vilnius at the conference Holocaust in Lithuania in Vilnius 2002:
    • The Burden of 1941, in: 'Lituanus' 47:4 (2001), pp. 47-60;
    • Thoughts on Lithuania's Shadows of the Past: A Historical Essay on the Legacy of War, Part I, in: 'Vilnius (Summer 1998), pp. 129-146;
    • Thoughts on Lithuania's Shadows of the Past: A Historical Essay on the Legacy of War, Part II, in: 'Vilnius' (Summer 1999), pp. 177-208... {{cite book}}: |first1= missing |last1= (help); line feed character in |quote= at position 120 (help)

Criterion problems[edit]

  • June 1999 United States Justice Department
    • I believe the US Justice Department is considered "a reputable institution" if not though, this may well qualify as written by an expert since afaik it concerns their litigation

Secondary sources, not in English, or other access issues[edit]

Abstract only[edit]

  • Abstract:

Konrad Kwiet (Spring 1998). "Rehearsing for Murder: The Beginning of the Final Solution in Lithuania in June 1941". Holocaust and Genocide Studies. 12 (1): 3–26.

Reviews[edit]

      • version française

Terres de sang. L’Europe entre Hitler et Staline,. Paris: Gallimard. 2012. p. 712. :

Secondary sources that do not meet sourcing standards=[edit]

While these sources do not meet sourcing standards, they can however be read for issue identifucation or narrative summaries. The information can be used assuming a source can be found elsewhere for the statement

Memory War[edit]

quote=“'It’s time to stop blaming each other, leave our ghettos and start talking,' he adds." }}

Nazi prosecutions[edit]


still acceptable under current sourcing standards[edit]

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/how-chicago-teacher-sparked-memory-war-forcing-lithuania-confront-its-n1262889

questioned texts for discussion[edit]

LAF remains controversial due to its anti-Semitic and anti-Polish positions. First of all, this is unsourced. Second, "controversial" is weasel and a cliched euphemism. Third, it seems to be unquestioned that they were anti-semitic; I have a cite to this effect and am here to add it or verify that it is already there. But a global wikivoice statement that this is why they are controversial can't actually be verified, assuming it weren't preferable not to use that word anyway. Maybe they are controversial in some circles because they aren't anti=semitic enough, or maybe some people disapproved of their handling of Memel (Klaipėda Region). Spelling all this out due to the toxicity that currently surrounds these articles. Elinruby (talk) 01:57, 11 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  • The June uprising laid the foundations for anti-Nazi resistance that later transformed into an anti-Soviet resistance.[1]
    • this seems facile and also to be contested. At least one writer said that the anti=semitism they printed encouraged violence. Specifics to come shortly.Elinruby (talk) 15:33, 12 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    • just came here to point out that the article asserts with no sourcing that Anti-semitism printed by the LAF encouraged violence. Repeat: we have two unsourced statements in the article body. That the June uprising was a foundation for the Resistance, and that its Antisemitic writings had caused the very violent pogroms -- these statements are both unsourced.

{talk-ref}}

In Germany, LAF had contact with Wilhelm Franz Canaris and Abwehr, but not the Nazi party.[citation needed] <--unable to source this amd seems PoV

  • "The LAF's pro-Nazi rhetoric and stridently anti-Semitic propaganda that equated Jews with Bolshevism and was widely disseminated in Lithuania prior to and during the June uprising likely encouraged the local population to engage in mass violence against Jews that began prior to the arrival of Nazi forces in the country and continued during the Nazi occupation (1941-1945).[citation needed]" seems PoV on several levels. Some authors do say this who are apparently RS, so cite this if we want to include this.

factual discrepancy, need to translate sources[edit]

Please resolve
  • Lithuanian rebels liberated the territory of Lithuania before the Wehrmacht arrived, and rescued over 300 political prisoners who would otherwise have been killed by Cheka.[1]
  • LAF freed 3,336 political prisoners detained by the Soviets.[2]
this was repeated else where in the article, pasting below in case a particular version is better

Lithuanian rebels liberated the territory of Lithuania before the Wehrmacht arrived, and rescued over 300 political prisoners who would otherwise have been killed by Cheka.[1] About 10,000 people participated in the June uprising, and 700 were killed by retreating Soviet soldiers. LAF freed 3,336 political prisoners detained by the Soviets.[3]

even more

LAF freed 3,336 political prisoners detained by the Soviets.[4]

statistics quibble[edit]

there are three sources that the proportion is 95 not 90. Someone changed this to 90 and cited it to the US State Department. I see no reason for this weighing of DUE and am changing that back, although as far as I can tell there is no practical effect either way. Removed source: Cite error: A <ref> tag is missing the closing </ref> (see the help page). The other sources are just higher quality is all. If someone objects for some reason please discuss Elinruby (talk) 06:28, 19 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Additional bibliography[edit]

Bibliography

Secondary sources believed to meet Eastern Europe criteria
  • Sužiedelis, Saulius (2006). "Lithuanian Collaboration during the Second World War: Past Realities, Present Perceptions: Collaboration and Resistance during the Holocaust: Belarus, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania". The Mass Persecution and Murder of Jews: The Summer and Fall of. Vol. 158.2004. pp. 313–359. This presentation is in part a modified summary and collation of my studies presented in earlier venues: *;My reports **Foreign Saviors, Native Disciples: Perspectives on Collaboration in Lithuania, 1940–1945, presented in April 2002 at the "Reichskommissariat Ostland" conference at Uppsala University and Södertörn University College, now published in: Collaboration and Resistance during the Holocaust. Belarus, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, ed. David Gaunt et al *;My articles in Vilnius at the conference Holocaust in Lithuania in Vilnius 2002: **The Burden of 1941, in: 'Lituanus' 47:4 (2001), pp. 47-60; **Thoughts on Lithuania's Shadows of the Past: A Historical Essay on the Legacy of War, Part I, in: 'Vilnius (Summer 1998), pp. 129-146; **Thoughts on Lithuania's Shadows of the Past: A Historical Essay on the Legacy of War, Part II, in: 'Vilnius' (Summer 1999), pp. 177-208...

Criterion problems[edit]

  • June 1999 United States Justice Department
    • I believe the US Justice Department is considered "a reputable institution" if not though, this may well qualify as written by an expert since afaik it concerns their litigation

Elinruby (talk) 06:20, 24 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Failed verification[edit]

Local LAF units formed in Lithuanian cities and organized espionage networks.[5]

This page range does not contain the word "espionage" -- not seeing a synonym either

References

  1. ^ a b c Bubnys, Arūnas; Jegelevičius, Sigitas; Knezys, Stasys; Rukšėnas, Algis (2011). "Istorikai apie Birželio sukilimo reikšmę" (PDF). Vilnius University, Institute of Lithuanian Literature and Folklore. pp. 2–3. Retrieved 7 June 2021.
  2. ^ Tamakauskas, Zigmas (20 June 2016). "1941 metų Birželio sukilimo žingsnių aidas" (in Lithuanian). Retrieved 13 October 2019.
  3. ^ Tamakauskas, Zigmas (20 June 2016). "1941 metų Birželio sukilimo žingsnių aidas" (in Lithuanian). Retrieved 13 October 2019.
  4. ^ Tamakauskas, Zigmas (20 June 2016). "1941 metų Birželio sukilimo žingsnių aidas" (in Lithuanian). Retrieved 13 October 2019.
  5. ^ Cite error: The named reference Piotrowski163 was invoked but never defined (see the help page).

Elinruby (talk) 05:16, 6 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Uncited synth[edit]

this has been tagged for a while now and I am not seeing this is sources:The LAF's pro-Nazi rhetoric and stridently anti-Semitic propaganda, equating Jews with Bolshevism, was widely disseminated in Lithuania prior to and during the June uprising and likely encouraged the local population to engage in mass violence against Jews that began prior to the arrival of Nazi forces in the country and continued during the Nazi occupation (1941-1945).[citation needed] Elinruby (talk) 05:22, 6 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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