Talk:Marquess/Archive 1

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Archive 1

China and Japan?

Does anyone know why China and Japan are included as countries with Marquesses? I assume there was some equivalent title in their peerages but unless we can explain why those titles are equivalent in their systems (and whether they are in use today - I would assume not for both of these), I think oriental marquessates should simply be omitted.

Well, it's a tricky matter, but while on the one hand the word marquess is clearly independent from oriental styles as such, so we must clearly label that these are equivalents, not nominal marquessates, there are also considerations, which as a whole I find quite convincing, to do so, rather then ignore them in our articles on western peerages:

when one reads western authors, they often fail to give the original title, so it's quite handy to have a reference under the western word - and thus unsuspecting readers can find out about thise very equivalency in the bargain
it makes sense to grasp the relative ranking of titles be equating them with a well-known system in English
for various reasons, such as diplomatic contacts bothering with questions of protocol, precisely such equation has also been attempted from the oriental point of view
in the case of Japan, its XIXth century constitution was deliberately inspired on admired western models, including the German (Prussian/ Holy Empire) and British, leading to lots of willing parallelisms with western institutions (e.g. Imeprial Diet, generally thus rendered in English) and generally established equation of titles. [In Subject to Deletion]

However we must caution against other practices of loose western (mis)use of other oriental titles outside of a peerage-type ranking order Fastifex 17:12, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

The section on Chinese and Japanese titles needs to be trimmed and clarified that the titles are not equivalent but are used to translate the imperial titles. [[User:leatherbear[leatherbear]] 21:57 12 may 2006 (UTC)

The four-syllable "marchioness"

...is a shibboleth. Like the four-syllable Giovanni, it separates you from us. No problem with that. --Wetman 04:36, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

suo jure Marchionesses

The article presently says that Anne Boleyn was the only person to have been created a Marchioness in her own right, but Ehrengard Melusina von der Schulenburg was created Marchioness of Dungannon (among other titles) on 18 July 1716. 195.92.40.49 12:20, 1 October 2007 (UTC)

Original French?

Saying the "original French" is not completely right. First, the much of the French that influenced English was Norman French which isn't necessarily the same. Moreover, the word is originally German, so it's not the ORIGINAL.

Therefore I took the word, original, out.

Arthurian Legend 00:37, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

Coronet

The coronet is wrong on two counts. The jewels or strawberry leaves are not real and should be coloured gold. The cloth or stuff should be red and not purple. - Kittybrewster ☎ 21:07, 14 April 2008 (UTC)

    What's more, should it read "viscount" or "marquess"?

POV?

Isn't it a bit of a NPOV problem to have the marchioness and marquise simply described in the Marquess article? As if women are somehow subordinate to the men of the same rank? Can we consider something else?--Eva ^bd 01:36, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

That is an interesting observation. I noticed that it is also the same for baron/baroness and count/countess. However, Lord and Lady are seperate, as well as Prince and Princess. With that being said, I think we need to discuss if there is 1- enough to create seperate articles for all, 2- if the articles should be renamed to include both male & female titles, and/or 3- if the female counterparts should be expanded within the existing articles??? Krushdiva (talk) 19:59, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

Marchioness is very rarely a Peerage (Normally a curtasy title)and in the British system would normally be a Commoner andthus significantly out ranked by her Husband. A Marchioness in her own rights Husband would most likely use earl as his curtasy title (Again unless he held a peerage in his own right).(86.31.191.242 (talk) 02:00, 21 June 2008 (UTC))

Old English

The article gives the Old English equivalent of the title as "Þegn / Hlǣfdiġe" - the first word is usually translated as "thane", as in Macbeth, Thane of Cawdor. The second is simply "Lady" and is in fact the etymological root of the modern word. I don't think Old English had an equivalent to marquess. In any event, the highest rank of nobility in England before the Norman Conquest was earl. Suggest that this "equivalent" be removed.

I am sure you are right. I’ve removed it. —Ian Spackman (talk) 09:29, 31 August 2008 (UTC)

Marquesal titles in other European languages

Perhaps the section Marquesal titles in other European languages is better for Wiktionary? It seems like something one would read in a dictionary, not in an encyclopaedia. --Law Lord (talk) 14:09, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

I would rather agree, except that terms such as as Marchesa do redirect to this article, so they need to appear here. Ian Spackman (talk) 14:31, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

Perhaps it would make sense to incoporate the foreign words into the text then, only when relevant. I mean, Spain actually has one or more women who are Marchesa, but to list the words for a bunch of countries (30 or so) when the title has never ever existed, seems like a job for a dictionary to me. --Law Lord (talk) 16:23, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

That would certainly make sense to me. (But not necessarily to anybody else, of course!). The current redirects, which ought to be incorporated and bolded are listed here. In fact there are fewer than I would have expected. You could go ahead and do it in the spirit of Be bold, or draw up a more specific proposal on this talk page. In this case I would be tempted to do the latter, but that’s entirely up to you of course. Cheers, Ian Spackman (talk) 09:27, 3 July 2009 (UTC)

Marquis vs. Marquess

The article states that "marquis" and "marquise" are used in North American English, but given that most peers with whom Canadians are familiar, including past governors general, military personnel, and politicians, held British peerages, I think this is questionable to say the least. To be on the safe side, I've altered this to [[American English]; and added Commonwealth English to "marquess". fishhead64 17:55, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

It's an absurd distinction anyway. Which spelling you use depends on where the title you're talking about comes from, not which variety of English you're speaking. Proteus (Talk) 20:31, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

The American Heritage Dictionarygives marquess as a variant of marquis, which is given a full entry. I don't have access to the OED at the moment. For what it's worth, in searches specifying English-language web pages,

Google yields 3.2 million hits for marquess (strangely, 1.6 million if you don't specify language) and 2.3 million for marquis (16.7 million if you don't specify language);
Ask.com yields 300,000 for marquess, 3.4 million for marquis.

From poking around on the web, but being otherwise ignorant of the term, marquess looks to me to be a uniquely British term for the rank of marquis. That makes me think Marquess should redirect to Marquis. -Eric ^talk 12:50, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

It's a distinction between titles from different countries rather than different varieties of English (the Marquess of Lansdowne is a marquess wherever he is, as that's how his title is spelt, and the Marquis de Sade similarly is always so called), and so it's a difficult article to title, as there isn't really a generic term for the holder of a title of this rank - granted, "marquess" and "marquis" are the most commonly used, as British and French titles are the most commonly encountered, and both are sometimes used to translate other varieties, but they're not universal - a German markgraf is pretty much always called a "margrave", for instance. On the whole, though, I'd say that, as we have to choose a title, "marquis" would be the best, as it's more likely to be used (even by those in Britain) to translate a title of this rank (the spelling "marquess" being much more restricted to those whose title is actually spelt that way). Proteus (Talk) 16:48, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

"A marquess (pronounced /ˈmɑrkwɨs/) or marquis (pronounced /mɑrˈkiː/) (from French "marquis") is a nobleman of hereditary rank in various European monarchies and some of their colonies."

From this it makes it sound like the spelling alters the pronunciation, but in England, I believe that the "marquis" spelling should be pronounced /ˈmɑrkwɨs/ too:

http://www.oxfordadvancedlearnersdictionary.com/dictionary/marquis 88.83.102.232 (talk) 01:53, 2 July 2010 (UTC)

What might also help to clarify, is that Scottish noblemen of this rank are invariably Marquises except on here. Another dose of anglocentric bias amongst articles relating to the anglophone nations. Brendandh (talk) 08:30, 2 July 2010 (UTC)

Coronets

It's worth adding information on a marquess's coronet to the article - I'd edit it myself, but I can't remember how many silver balls and how many strawberry leaves are used exactly. Walton monarchist89 16:37, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

Remember, coronets vary by nation, even for the same approximate title or rank. Coronets for nobles holding the rank of or equivalent to Marquis are:

All other coronets Lethiere 22:58, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

Why do they even have Marchese/Marchesa on this list...they were low level, fringe wealth. The true Latin derived name is Marchio. Why would it even need to be modified in the feminine since it is well established that Marchioness is the proper form, not Marchesa. One would think the Italian/Romanian/Romantic, which are among the closest ties to the Latin derivative, would not pollute the translation...especially since all the other languages kept the integrity of the word and the correct basis for pronounciation ...Mar-Kee (-O at the end in the pure form Latin). Please revisit and correct this, it sickens ones stomach to see these things especially when a name has no right to be in the group and is glaringly erroneous.

AM — Preceding unsigned comment added by Wavestrends (talk • contribs) 17:09, 9 March 2012 (UTC)

Misc

Why do they even have Marchese/Marchesa on this list...they were low level, fringe wealth. The true Latin derived name is Marchio. Why would it even need to be modified in the feminine since it is well established that Marchioness is the proper form, not Marchesa. One would think the Italian/Romanian/Romantic, which are among the closest ties to the Latin derivative, would not pollute the translation...especially since all the other languages kept the integrity of the word and the correct basis for pronounciation ...Mar-Kee (-O at the end in the pure form Latin). Please revisit and correct this, it sickens ones stomach to see these things especially when a name has no right to be in the group and is glaringly erroneous.

AM (moved up from mid-list due to input error) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Wavestrends (talk • contribs) 17:25, 9 March 2012 (UTC)

Nota Bene : I think you will find Marquis and Marchio are the proper form, correct singular ....Marquess and Marchese simply refer to nothing more than their plural forms. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Wavestrends (talk • contribs) 20:02, 9 March 2012 (UTC)

Realm

What is the name of the realm a Marquess rules? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 217.198.211.203 (talk) 13:42, August 21, 2007 (UTC)

Realm always connoting "independently ruled", in English-language usage it is Marquisate, as in the once-independent Marquisate of Montferrato, in Italian Marchesato del Montferrato. Never Marquessate as you might be led to believe here. The uniquely English form Marquess is applied only to some, but not all English and UK marquisates or marquessates and never to Continental ones, where the local forms are most commonly applied: no one would refer to "the marchese" as "the marquess". In spite of what you've read above, the convention applies quite arbitrarily and individually to each title: one form is preferred— watch your step addressing those Christmas cards. In English-language usage the title is not applied to the estate: the Duke of Devonshire's holdings are traditionally centered in Derbyshire, the dukedom lying in the title only. If you've heard of the "Dukeries" of Nottinghamshire, that was intended as a joke, simply comparing the propinquity of half-a-dozen dukes in great houses in Notts. to a rookery, as the U pronunciation of "duke" was "jook", rhyming with "rook".--Wetman 00:01, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

Realm is a territory that is ruled by a sovereign and marquess/marquis were not sovereigns. However, margraves in the Holy Roman Empire were independant rulers and there "realms" were called margraviates. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.143.78.95 (talk) 00:14, 10 March 2012 (UTC)

Mark

The English word still has its Germanic meaning of a 'limit', and the 'Graf' (possibly administrator of some sort) of that 'limit' area was called 'margrave' (Markgraf). The only French element is likely to be the suffix. Pamour (talk) 22:44, 7 August 2012 (UTC)

French pronunciation

The french pronunciation is wrongly given as /mɑrˈkiː/. The r should be changed into ʁ. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.200.4.70 (talk) 12:11, 23 March 2014 (UTC)

Marquis?

I'm not sure about this article. "Marquess" is usually only used of British peers, with others being called "Marquis" (no one would ever speak of the "Marquess de Sade"). I think Marquis should probably be split off into a separate article. Proteus (Talk) 10:10, 26 Jun 2004 (UTC)

For all that, "Marquis" is occasionally used with British peers. I've seen "Marquis of Salisbury" as often as "Marquess of Salisbury." Mackensen 15:02, 26 Jun 2004 (UTC)

"Marquess of Salisbury" is the form used by the Cecil family, and therefore the correct one. "Marquis of Salisbury" is a solecism. Zythophile (talk) 14:22, 8 February 2016 (UTC)

I think Marquis is the standard British usage, actually - I've hardly ever seen Marquess used here.

'Marquess' is the most common form in the United Kingdom, though it is the rarest of peerage titles, and many of those that do exist are either subsidiary titles of Dukes, and hence often hidden, or else written as Lord X. I have added a section on forms of address. LordDextershire 22:26, 17 October 2005 (UTC)

I, too, find ‘marquess’ rather archaic as a generic and international term. The Guardian Style Guide, incidentally has ‘marquis not marquess, except where it is the correct formal title, eg Marquess of Blandford’[1]. The Times has ‘marquess (not marquis, except in foreign contexts and occasional Scottish titles)’[2]. The BBC’s advice is delightful, but not entirely not helpful:

It simplifies things considerably if we call all peers lord and all peeresses lady. This means we do not have to worry if they are a viscount, a marquess, a baroness or a countess.

Ian Spackman 22:38, 8 March 2006 (UTC)

Marquis (also correctly spelt Marquess) is not the rarest of peerage titles. There are fewer dukes. Viewfinder 00:10, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

It's the rarest in the sense that fewer Marquessates have been created than Dukedoms. Proteus (Talk) 08:29, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

I'd like to second the importance of distinguishing between marquesses and marquises. As long as the two titles exist as seperate entities we should learn them to be as such, despite their similarities. Quite simply, the most important thing to remember is that "Marquess" is exclusively British, "Marquis" is predominantly Continental European. It's like "Earl" and "Count". JJ

I didn't know it was British at all. Of course it is French, but who would have guessed it would be used by the English, of all people! Gingermint (talk) 04:28, 11 April 2011 (UTC)

The thing about British/American spelling is a nonsense. The title is what the title is. The Marquess of Reading is still the Marquess of Reading, even if he's in America; the Marquis de Sade is always called the Marquis de Sade, even by Brits. Simhedges 21:11, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

It depends on the title whether the spelling Marquess or Marquis is preferred. All pronounced "Mar'kess" ("Marcus"), I believe, not "mar-kwess"--Wetman 23:31, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

Most British holders of the title use the "Marquess" spelling, but not all: the Marquis of Granby (elder son of the Duke of Rutland) spells it that way, for example. Zythophile (talk) 14:22, 8 February 2016 (UTC)

Pronounciation

Is the Scottish title of 'marquis' pronounced as the English 'marquess' (mar-kwess) or as the French 'marquis' (mar-khee)? Walton monarchist89 13:53, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

As the English. Jameswilson 21:43, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

Baron/ Baroness

A Baron's / Baroness' title is Lord X / Lady X, and not "the Right Honourable the..."

The title "The Right Honourable" only comes from being a member of the Privy Council.

Marquis

Origination of Marquis or Marquess in England was the Lord of the Marches. In German (and propbably Anglo-Saxon) this was rendered as Count of the Marches (Markgraff) It is easy to see how Marquis could have derived from Markgraff.

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