Talk:McMaster University/Archive 2

New rankings

Hello. I don't know how to do it but someone should update the university rankings.

QS ranking 2010 has us ranked 162 in the world: http://www.topuniversities.com/university-rankings/world-university-rankings/2010/results/101-200

Times higher education has us ranked 93 in the world: http://www.timeshighereducation.co.uk/world-university-rankings/2010-2011/top-200.html —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.64.62.65 (talk) 23:00, 27 September 2010 (UTC)

University Motto

User:DoubleBlue keeps changing the university motto to Latin when the link referred to here states how most universities have their motto in Latin but McMaster, being the exception uses Greek instead. "McMaster founders evidently desired to go back to the Middle Ages to the earliest days of the Christian faith, and therefore used the Greek form" It is only translated into Latin for people's understanding but it is not officially used.

The picture of McMaster motto is clearly in Greek and so this should be followed. In contrast, comparing it to UofT's crest which says "Velut arbor ævo" reinforces the fact whatever is printed on the crest is considered official and should be followed. 58.152.144.80 (talk) 16:22, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for finally explaining your edit. I now concur DoubleBlue (Talk) 16:37, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

Israeli apartheid

I'm surprised at the reversions back and forth here on this issue and claims of vandalism without any discussion. Both sides have a reasonable position, as far as I can see. Though the sources used in this article are not terribly WP:Reliable sources in terms of verifiability and neutral point of view, there are several reliable sources available through a GoogleNews search. There is also the danger of Undue weight being placed upon it. Please discuss your concerns on the talk page and perhaps a compromise and better article can come out of the discussion. DoubleBlue (talk) 02:42, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

I am disputing the content about israeli-apartheid shouldn't be placed in the main article as it is irrelevant to the contents on the main Wiki McMaster University page. It is rather an internal policy or rules governing certain signs/banners posted in the student centre. Therefore, I strongly believe it should be placed in the McMaster Students Union as it is much more appropriate. A lot users do not listen and just believe my reversion is as an act of censorship or vandalism. I appreciate you taking the time to discuss. Thank you 219.79.199.217 (talk) 11:24, 10 March 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 218.102.81.48 (talk)

Also, why should his comment be kept on the page when other people want it removed. Some people just roll back and revert edits blindly and think its vandalism and post useless warning messages. 218.102.179.86 (talk) 09:20, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

Please try to get consensus first, according to Wikipedia code of conduct, before removing the section. Consensus is defined here Wikipedia:Consensus. I left you a comment earlier on your talk page asking you to read Wikipedia:Dispute_resolution on how to proceed in this case. ∏∪βiατεch 18:05, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

I don't see anyone discussing besides that person. 144.214.156.118 (talk) 02:41, 12 March 2009 (UTC)

Third Opinion

To be honest at first glance this doesnt seem to be a major incident and not even enough to be titled a 'contoversy'. It seems a minor stir the type you get often at universities with no real coverage aside from the few small articles mentioned. For it to be a controversy i'd want to see at least some degree of coverage in the local dailies etc. I agree with the concerns over undue weight on this particular event. Is there a compromise here can we remove the section and add maybe a single line about it to another section? Are there any more sources to be found? I'm also concern that it does not mention the universities response i.e. That the alleged 'ban' does not in fact exist at all and that people overeacted to misinformation. --neon white talk 00:58, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

I agree with the concern of undue weight placed on this issue. However, I think it is a controversial issue as it touches two highly charged subjects -in my opinion-, freedom of speech, and a major conflict in world affairs with global reach. On the other hand, the scope of the issue seems limited to student activity regulations and not the political stance of the university's governing body. I suggest that the section be moved unchanged into a subsection of "Student life".∏∪βiατεch 02:15, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

Should be moved to McMaster Students Union article. 203.218.43.69 (talk) 02:45, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

I don't think it fits there at all and it doesnt matter what the subject is, a handful of one off internet articles isnt really a controversy (. We'd need to find evidence of this being widely debated for it to be a controversy otherwise it's a storm in a teacup. --neon white talk 06:53, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

Well I figured that would be a better compromise. But on firsthand, its insignificant to be included on wikipedia anyway. 219.78.59.30 (talk) 08:04, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

Sparked by "degree of coverage" above, I googled around a bit and found this article reporting similar bans at Carleton University and the University of Ottawa.

About McMaster, that news article says,

There was a similar issue last year at McMaster University when a student group hung a banner in the school’s student centre that used the slogan “Israeli Apartheid” and depicted a soldier-like figure pushing a small child.

McMaster spokesperson Andrea Farquhar said that this year, school officials have not seen any IAW posters.

“We certainly don’t take a position to say that they aren’t going to be allowed. All posters that go up have to be approved individually. But there aren’t any that I’ve seen at the moment. It seems to be something that is more of an issue at other campuses,” Farquhar said.

The info hasn't (yet?) appeared in the WP on either of those universities.

bigcampaign.org/, an organization campaigning for a boycott of Israeli goods, mentioned McMaster in a couple of articles last year: [1] and [2]. The Varsity magazine at the University of Toronto in an article in their 5 March issue, reports

Every year, Israeli Apartheid Week provokes heated debate between pro-Israeli and pro-Palestinian students and groups on campus. The week includes lectures, demonstrations, and films to shore up support for “boycotts, divestments, and sanctions” against Israel, according to its website. Launched at U of T in 2005, IAW is being held in 40 cities this year.

About McMaster, that article says

The phrase “Israeli Apartheid” was banned by McMaster University last year, with support from the McMaster Students Union. McMaster’s photocopy centre refused to reproduce a poster with the phrase “Israeli Apartheid Week,” sending it off to the university’s human rights and equity services office instead.

The February 18, 2009 article Exposed: University of Toronto suppresses pro-Palestinian activism in rabble.ca ("News for the rest of us"), says

Restrictions and harassment are experienced by pro-Palestinian activists on most Canadian campuses; this can take many different forms. At York University, for example, the latest tool of repression is the "Student Code of Conduct," a draconian document that could potentially be used to ban any form of protest. At McMaster, it was in the form of a blanket ban on the use of the term "Israeli apartheid." The University of Toronto (UofT) has seen a broad range of tactics being used against student organizers, but it seems that the administration has decided to focus its effort on combating pro-Palestinian activism through an old-new tool: denial of space for meeting and holding events.

That article was reprinted here by the Coalition Against Israeli Apartheid.

There is more stuff out there, but that's all I looked at. This appears to be last year's issue at McMaster I don't know whether or not it is still enough of an issue that it still deserves mention in this article, but McMaster is apparently still being prominently mentioned in relation to the issue. -- Boracay Bill (talk) 03:50, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

thevarsity.ca is a college newspaper with a history but i'm not sure about it's reputation for fact checking. College newspapers are usually used carefully. THe problem is according tot he college there wasnt a ban. The whole things seems to be people getting irate over nothing. Maybe there is a more general article we could add to? as alot of this involves other colleges. --neon white talk 21:27, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

I agree that it's not really a big enough controversy to merit its own section in this article. I attend McMaster and haven't even heard of this issue until reading this article. None of my housemates - also Mac students - have brought it up, either, so I doubt they know much more than I do. To be honest, no one I know has brought it up at all. This seems to be an issue relevant only to a certain population within Mac. 76.64.64.156 (talk) 03:07, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

Moved Material of "Israeli Apartheid" Controversy

Students at McMaster University are forbidden to use the term "Israeli Apartheid" when debating the conflict in the Middle East. The university refused a request for permission to print and hang a banner usng the phrase in the university’s student centre to promote Israeli Apartheid Week, a series of lectures and events that’s held on more than 20 campuses. University spokespersons said that the request was denied because the sign was “testing the boundaries of freedom of speech for one party, verses use of offensive and inflammatory language as interpreted by another.” The decision drew praise from the local Jewish community and the Jewish Students Association. Campus Pro-Palestinan group denounced what they claimed was an unjustified act of censorship.

I made the cut due to WP:notability but to preserve the integrity of the information should I be wrong on this one. My vote is to Delete--Labattblueboy (talk) 06:26, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

What does notability have to do with it? The main issues with the passage is that the first sentence has been disproven by a university spokesperson who claimed that every public displayed banner is vetted and potentially offensive ones are not allowed. It was the banner that was banned not the use of a term. With this in mind it seems like a none issue. --neon white talk 17:03, 27 March 2009 (UTC)

I'm a bit confused by the comment. I cut the material because it is not an issue with significant coverage as defined under the WP:Notability policy. More specifically the section does not add value when providing a general overview of McMaster University. The other issues are irrelevant if the topic of discussion is not of significant note, to effect a change in the overview of the topic. --Labattblueboy (talk) 02:09, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

Notabilty policy only refers to the subject of articles not to content. The subject of this article is McMaster University, which is obviously notable. Wikipedia:N#Notability guidelines do not directly limit article content explains it. I think what you might be referring to is undue weight which is being discussed above. --neon white talk 05:48, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

Infobox image

Request: Could anyone help Keitherson improve the usability of Image:McMasterCoatofarms.jpg, possibly giving it a transparent background or even better converting it to a PNG or SVG format image?.--Labattblueboy (talk) 12:54, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

I have created the image at the right using the high-res segments from this website: http://www.mcmaster.ca/coat/. The rendition is not perfect but I feel like it does a good job of representing the coat of arms. It can most definitely be improved and I invite other artists to try and make it adhere more to the images of the crest that we have available.AniRaptor2001 (talk) 16:50, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

thumb

Infobox Image Poll

There is currently an attempt to resolve the issue of which image to use in the article's infobox (Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Universities#Infobox_logos_.2F_images). If these discussions fail to come to a consensus one way or the other can I get a show of which image would be preferred? --Labattblueboy (talk) 12:54, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

Support Image:McMasterCoatofarms.jpg

Conditional Support if image quality is improved. --Labattblueboy (talk) 12:54, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

Support Image:MacU.png

Support if image quality of Image:McMasterCoatofarms.jpg can not (or will not) be improved. --Labattblueboy (talk) 12:54, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

Thank you very much AniRaptor2001. Your help is most appreciated. I think this resolves the situation. The image is of sufficient quality to have my full support. --Labattblueboy (talk) 17:50, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

Top work guys. Thank you very much. 219.79.198.238 (talk) 05:44, 4 April 2009 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

indigenous studies?

i had added a small section on mcmaster's indigenous studies program to the main article as well as the "special programs" section of the mcmaster articles box at the bottom of the page. now both are mysteriously missing without any comments in the archives. anyone knowwhats going on? --24.141.78.110 (talk) 04:37, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

I can't say anything with regards to the special programs box but I can say I removed the indigenous studies section. Beyond containing no citation (which is a problem for the article in general) the program is not important enough from an encyclopedic point of view to merit it's own section. I could see in meriting a sentence or so under the academics section. --Labattblueboy (talk) 05:46, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

McMaster iSci

Hey, an article that I created for the program of "iSci" at Mac entitled "McMaster Integrated Science" was recently deleted and redirected to this article. Is it possible to at least have a mention of this program within this page or the "Faculty of Science" page? This article: http://www.educause.edu/EDUCAUSE+Review/EDUCAUSEReviewMagazineVolume45/ANewApproachtoScienceEducation/195809 could be used as a reference. Thanks

(Prateek (talk) 05:50, 5 February 2010 (UTC))

Research Centres

Why was my section on Research Centres removed?? I think it is a good idea to mention them.

The only citation was a mcmaster link. It might merit inlcusion as a single phrase, but not an entire sub-section.--Labattblueboy (talk) 20:20, 30 April 2010 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:McMaster University/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Racepacket (talk) 09:58, 21 January 2011 (UTC) This is an impressive article and obviously represents a lot of hard work.

Please fix disamb links: McMaster Integrated Science, McMaster Marauders, and McMaster School of Geography and Earth Sciences. All three pages point back to this article. Fn 87, 102, 105, and 120 are bad links.

GA review (see here for criteria)

1. It is reasonably well written.

   a (prose): b (MoS for lead, layout, word choice, fiction, and lists):

   In lead, change "comprising of" to "comprising"

   Done

   "whose substantial bequeathed funds helped form the beginning of the university."->"whose bequest helped establish the university." - how much was it?

   Hyphenate "publicly-funded"

   "However, this also changed in 1957 with the creation of a Faculty of Graduate Studies, which was gradually expanded over the coming decades."->"Also in 1957, Ph.D. programs were consolidated in a new Faculty of Graduate Studies."

   "In 1968, the University was organized"->"In 1968, the University was reorganized' ???

   "The buildings and facilities represent the ongoing development that has been happening on McMaster grounds since it purchased the property from the city of Hamilton in 1928."->"The campus has been continously developed since 1928." ??

   "The MNR provides a wide range" - first define the abbrevation. Next, are you referring to the building or to an academic department? A nuclear reactor is completely different than a cyclotron, although they could be located by coincidence in the same building. State how the reactor is used - is it a teaching facility to train reactor operators and engineers or is it used for research such as dating antiquities?

   Most modern physics must be performed at such high energies that a cyclotron would no longer be of research use. Has it been decommissioned?

   "Prince was a" - first name or antecedent missing? Man or building? Do you mean "It was named for a long-time hall master..."

   "as well as their business management"->"as well as its business management"

   I suggest you start the discussion of the Medical campuses with "The Michael G. DeGroote School of Medicine is located on the main campus as well as in St. Catharines and Kitchener." Do the students apply for admission to a particular campus, or are they randomly assigned after being admitted to the school?

   Does "a policy which has been adopted around the world.[5]" mean that others have done the same thing independently, or that others have based this on the The McMaster Model?

   Is the absence of a summer break an integral part of the The McMaster Model, or is this an unrelated sentence in the section entited "The McMaster Model"? Perhaps move the academic calendar discussion to a different section if not related to the McMaster Model.

   "first write": you are using the word "write" in a manner that may not be widely accepted in the English language. Perhaps change it to "first examination"

   "former alumni Roberta Bondar," - how could someone be a former alumna? (It is alumna if she is a woman.) Was her degree revoked or did she have gender reassignment surgery?

2. It is factually accurate and verifiable.

   a (references): b (citations to reliable sources): c (OR):

   Fn 1, is 2006-2007 endowment data. Is there anything more up-to-date available?

   Fn 2, there is more up-to-date enrollment data at: here

   Need accessdates on the web references.

   It is a bit troubling that so many sources are primary sources from McMaster's website. I assumed that you searched for alternative sources.

3. It is broad in its coverage.

   a (major aspects): b (focused):

   I suggest reorganizing the table of faculties. I would place each faculty on a separate row, with the first column being the faculty name and the second column being the number of students enrolled.

   I take it that the School of Graduate Studies does not have a separate faculty. Perhaps you should state this explicitly.

   WP:UNI guidelines discourage including tuition levels in the articles. They become quickly out of date, and are not meaningful given the amount of financial aid available.

   Do you know what percentage of students receive financial aid?

   How about expanding the see also section with related McMaster articles - Medical Center, Security Services, etc.

   Infobox takes the total number of employees which is 7,800 according to this.

   Section 8(1)(f) and (g) of the 1976 Act provides for four members of the Board of Governors elected by the teaching staff and one member elected by the students. - This should be included in the description of the Board of Governors. Similarly, Section 12(1)(d) and (e) provides for six undegraduate and six graduate student members of the Senate. Section 14 provides that Board and Senate meetings are open to the public.

   The article should explain how the college is financed. According to this: "The University is financed by means of endowment income, gifts, fees, and annual grants from the City of Hamilton, the Hamilton-Wentworth Region, The Province of Ontario, and the Government of Canada."

4. It follows the neutral point of view policy.

   Fair representation without bias:

5. It is stable.

   No edit wars, etc.:

6. It is illustrated by images, where possible and appropriate.

   a (images are tagged and non-free images have fair use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):

7. Overall:

   Pass/Fail:

   I am placing the article on hold.

21 January 2010

• Added information on how much money was bequeathed to the university. Corrected article to the standards on the MoS. Corrected sentences based on the suggested corrections made out by Racepacket. In regards to the statement made in the McMaster Model however, where it states that the McMaster Model had been adopted by other universities, it was taken from the McMaster Fast Fact section of their website so it doesn't go much in depth. If needed I will take out that statement in compliance with Wiki:NPOV as I can't seem to find another source which explains in more in depth.

• I updated the enrolment data with the most up to date statistic (2009/2010), however I used the numbers from the Common University Data Ontario (CUDO) document. The source you provided seems to be a rounded up figure of full time students only from the CUDO. I'm not sure if there is a more up to date figure for the endowment figures but I'll look into it. I'll also get around placing the access dates on the web references after the weekend. As for the majority of the sources being from McMaster, most of the information (from what I could find anyways) seems to be only available primarily on the McMaster website. I do however have a book which goes further in depth with the insignias and logos of the university so I'll see to replacing the references with the one from the book in order to further diversify the references.

• As for the broadening of content, there currently are no statistics for the total student sizes of each faculty (to my knowledge at least). While CUDO does provide the size of each program, it unfortunately categorizes some programs together which would normally be in the Humanities or Sciences so it would not be possible to add up the programs in that fashion. I also don't believe that the university nor the Ministry of Universities, Colleges and Training releases the percentage of the student population that is on student aid. I updated the infobox's academic staff number, however not with the 7,800 staff as stated on the site. I do believe that the academic staff only implies those who are employed as instructional faculty however I will change it to 7,800 if I am mistaken on that part. Everything else stated in this section I do believe I had changed in line with your suggestions with the exception of the Board of Governors. I will get working on that after the weekend.

Leventio (talk) 00:56, 22 January 2011 (UTC)

Thank you for your work. The infobox takes the following parameters:

• academic_staff = Number of faculty / academic staff members.
• administrative_staff = Number of administrative / support staff.

You may use either or both. If you only know the total staff (suppose its 7,800) use:

|free_label=Total employees
|free=7,800 

Racepacket (talk) 03:59, 23 January 2011 (UTC)

January 22

• You discuss the MNR, which is an academic unit related to the physics department. Isn't the Brockhouse Institute for Material Research also worthy of mention?
• Please don't over-look the disamb. link requiring attention that I listed at the top of the review.
• If you can't implement my suggestion of a faculty table with the second column being enrollment, how about making the second column the founding year of each faculty? The current horizontal table without any faculty-specific data looks somehow contrived.
• The following sentence from the engineering faculty article is probably worth inclusion in the main article, "The Canadian Centre for Electron Microscopy at McMaster is home to the world's most advanced microscope. The titan 80-300 cubed microscope has a magnification of 14 million and is used for material, medical and nano-research.[5][6]"
• Even after reading more materials, I am still very puzzled as to why the infobox says it is a "public university." I understand how it disconnected from the Baptist Church and does receive annual appropriations from the government. However, its Board of Trustees is not appointed by the government. Is it any more dependent on government funds than are other private Canadian Universities? (I gather the only private Universities in Ontario are religious.) Are the employees of McMaster considered government employees or employees of a non-profit corporation? The official budget indicates that McMaster employees are covered by a University pension plan (which is not the government employee pension plan.) Who actually owns the land, buildings and the facilities? All of these factors combined determine whether McMaster is "public" or "private". Is McMaster "more private" than any of the other "public universities?" (For example, in New York State, the state gives money to all of the Universities, but more the the "public" ones. Also in the US, Federal student aid and faculty research grants are available to both "public" and "private" universities.)
• website says, "With a total sponsored research income of $345 million, McMaster University ranks first in the country in research intensity--a measure of research income per full-time faculty member--averaging $308,000 per faculty member. ( Research Infosource Inc., 2006)" At the least, I think you can include the $345 million figure in the Research section.
• The footer template for Post-Secondary Institutions in Ontario {{Ont post-secondary}}, has two footnotes that are dead links - #1 and #2.
• I suggest that the {{Ontario Sports}} template probably should be dropped from this page, because this is more than a sports-specific article.
• Should we mention the Arts & Science Program in the Organization section as well as in the Admissions section?

January 25

• Added info on Board of Governors and Senate
• Added new numbers for both administrative and academic staff
• I mentioned the Arts and Science program in organizations as it seems to warrant one (its a taught by multiple faculties)
• Removed Ontario sports and fixed dead links for Ont post-secondary template.
• Added info on research, date of establishment for faculties, the microscope and BIMR.
• I actually don't know how to fix the disamb links (or rather I don't know what process I need to undertake). So I need assistance here

Good question. Find the sentence that has the click and click on it. You will be taken to a page that lists multiple meanings for that word or phrase. Pick out the one that fits the meaning of the sentence in this article, then go back and pipe to the particular meaning. For example, McMaster Integrated Science links back to the main article, so I would remove the link around that phrase.

Alright then. I managed to change the redirect to the administration portion of the article for McMaster School of Geography and Earth Sciences and McMaster Integrated Science, while changing the redirect for McMaster Marauders to the athletics subsection of the article.

• Well, the university is listed as a public university by the Ministry of Training, Colleges and Universities (Ontario), as the majority of the school's funding comes from federal and provincial operation and research grants (municipal funding may come in the form of grants as well). I think all of the private universities in Ontario are seminaries and only have the legislated approval to hand out certain degrees, although we see a break in that trend with some private universities popping up in the western provinces (ie. British Columbia). There really isn't much else in difference, except for the fact that no private university in Canada was created under Royal Charter. Both universities (private and public) also maintain institutional autonomy (although private universities may have more leeway, don't quote me on this...) and students attending either are able to get student aid (although it is only a select number of private universities that are eligible). Leventio (talk) 22:36 22 January 2011 (UTC)

Many thanks for the explanation.

We are very close to finishing this. Racepacket (talk) 22:44, 25 January 2011 (UTC)

Good work. I have made the last few changes myself. Congratulations. Racepacket (talk) 22:55, 26 January 2011 (UTC)

I'm curious why it is listed under Social Sciences and Society good article? Shouldn't it fall under Educational institutions? 112.118.146.28 (talk) 01:34, 27 January 2011 (UTC)

Nevermind, that is the sub heading. 119.237.117.65 (talk) 07:48, 27 January 2011 (UTC)

What's this

about a Mix Master University? harej 19:32, 21 January 2011 (UTC)

• We have hybred universities like Cornell. Racepacket (talk) 12:15, 23 January 2011 (UTC)
  • lol wut? 112.118.146.53 (talk) 09:09, 26 January 2011 (UTC)