Talk:Middle East

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Middle East definition[edit]

We can’t use this modern day definition of “middle East” without usage of Near east and Far east. This map is entirely incorrect as it includes the near East and is now completely inaccurate and lost all of its meaning. I propose a new map, which separates the near East from the Middle East, and shows the far East. All labeled. Middle East is supposed to be Mesopotamia to Burma. Central Asia is supposed to be included in the definition of Middle East. Syria, Lebanon, Israel, Palestine, Jordan, Turkey etc ARE NOT MIDDLE EASTERN COUNTRIES. Ricemaster12 (talk) 05:37, 6 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Read WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS. - LouisAragon (talk) 00:41, 13 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I’m not saying to change the definition by any means. What I am saying though is to INCLUDE the original definition of what the Middle East was. It serves as a great insight for people who are not familiar with the definition (which many people aren’t) and is extremely valuable. All I ask is to include the definition given by the United States Government (picture included) to which I can provide sources and you or other editors can insert. It doesn’t even have to be in the lede. Perhaps somewhere in the body, under the Terminology section, the picture can be included. Ricemaster12 (talk) 04:06, 14 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I believe I have found a resolution for the both of us, sir :)
See latest topic. Ricemaster12 (talk) 04:35, 14 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I think that Pakistan should be part of the Middle East because if you go back in time you can see many Muslim empires controlled parts of Pakistan — Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.27.232.2 (talk) 17:31, 16 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Sources[edit]

There is a typo for source number 21. It should say "Middle East".

Source number 34 - Is it WP:RS certified? Ricemaster12 (talk) 04:20, 14 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Source found!![edit]

For the sentence, "Until World War II, it was customary to refer to areas centered around Turkey and the eastern shore of the Mediterranean as the "Near East", while the "Far East" centered on China, and the Middle East then meant the area from Mesopotamia to Burma, namely the area between the Near East and the Far East" I have found the source, which is: "United States Government Manual". Division of Public Inquiries Office of War Information: 191. 1944. Please update. Picture of map can be provided as well. Ricemaster12 (talk) 04:31, 14 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Words to this effect are essentially included in the second sentence of the Definitions section, where it highlights a usage that connotated the area between Arabia and India, which is similar, less the India. For the above, is there a link to an online resource that other can view to cross-reference? Sources with links are better. Iskandar323 (talk) 06:42, 14 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Iskandar323: I assume that they are referring to this source (which is about the various offices of the U.S. Department of State). M.Bitton (talk) 10:39, 14 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I believe that’s the one. The US Department of State wrote “The region covered by the Division of Middle Eastern Affairs corresponded to the earliest British usage of “Middle East.”” Ricemaster12 (talk) 11:51, 14 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Where does it say that? I can't see it in the above source. M.Bitton (talk) 13:07, 14 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
There’s a picture of the map provided by the Manual that says that towards the bottom of the paragraph via the US Department of State. It’s a separate image that can be found here: https://mideast.unc.edu/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/7-U.S.-Department-of-State-1944.png
And at the bottom, it uses the source found in the US Government Manual Ricemaster12 (talk) 13:17, 14 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
That's a different source (that's commenting on the first and adding its own conclusions). The US Department of State didn't write what you're attributing to it. M.Bitton (talk) 13:25, 14 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
It’s titled “where is the Middle East” and under it “US Department of State, 1944”. There’s a paragraph under the image saying “The region covered by the Division of Middle Eastern Affairs corresponded to the earliest British usage of "Middle East." Who else would be writing that besides the US DPT?
source on the bottom is: U.S. Government Manual, Summer 1944, 191. Ricemaster12 (talk) 13:29, 14 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Perhaps an author from the website? Ricemaster12 (talk) 13:32, 14 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Now that I have provided a direct link to the source, do you at least agree that the US Department of State didn't write what you're attributing to it? M.Bitton (talk) 13:48, 14 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Did you see the link I provided? It’s saying the same thing I’m saying - same source you and I are both talking about. Maybe the bottom paragraph is not in the book, but that 1 source is including all the info Ricemaster12 (talk) 13:57, 14 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Nope, we're not talking about the same thing. Anyway, the next time "you find a source", make sure you link to the source that you actually have read. I'm done here. M.Bitton (talk) 14:34, 14 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, somewhat confused. We’re talking about the same thing. How was that sentence in the wiki page written in the first place without a source? The one I found points in all the right directions for what the sentence is implying. Have you seen the other source I provided? Just trying to find it. No need to get upset with that attitude. Have a nice day. Ricemaster12 (talk) 14:46, 14 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

A curious question[edit]

Hello,

I’m not looking to make an edit necessarily, but for some education for myself and other readers if an editor is well-educated on the topic.


So, the definition of Middle East nowadays is a political term that refers to mostly West Asian countries and Egypt. It has nothing to do with ethnicity or religion or culture, since there’s no 1 ethnicity nor 1 religion nor 1 culture in the area. How did the modern definition evolve to what it is today? Why did the terms Middle East and Near East merge while Afghanistan and Pakistan were dropped from the previous definitions? Why was India dropped as well?

Sorry I know that’s a lot of questions, but it’s all for education :) WikiAmerican1 (talk) 05:47, 15 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The Indian subcontinent was dropped for several reasons: the emergence of the discussion of the subcontinent as a genre unto itself, the appreciation of the physical barrier that the Hindu Kush presented in ancient times, and the understanding of plate tectonics, which appreciates the subcontinent as a plate unto itself. Afghanistan was dropped because it was more convenient to group it with the other 'stans', which generally group well together as a largely landlocked central Asian cluster (the Caspian Sea doesn't really go anywhere). There's also the term Greater Middle East, which today is like the old Middle East, still retaining the other parts that increasingly minimal Middle East definitions have dropped. Iskandar323 (talk) 06:52, 15 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I see, makes sense. If plate tectonics were taken into consideration, and Iran is on a separate plate from the Arabian plate, why’s it included to this day? Also, do you know what the cause was for the Near and Middle East terms merging (besides the fall of the Ottoman Empire)? WikiAmerican1 (talk) 13:05, 15 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I mean, there are some good reasons for considering Iran and the Arab world separately due to the influence of the Zagros mountains in helping keeping the cultures relatively distinct, but the distinction is simply not the case in the common definitions of the Middle East. The why is not really very important. Iskandar323 (talk) 15:08, 15 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Iran is also on the Eurasian plate and iranian plateau, which is separate from the Arabian plate as well so that could be another reason to exclude it too.
Could it just be because the government of Iran itself doesn’t want to be excluded from the definition since they want to hold more power in the Middle East? WikiAmerican1 (talk) 17:14, 15 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
It's not dictated by plate tectonics - don't get the wrong end of the stick - it's just one factor that has differentiated geographies historically. The more significant factor is the type of physical barriers plate boundaries result in, such as the Hindu Kush and Himalayan Mountains, both of which rather effectively geographically isolate the Indian subcontinent. But again, it's not about feelings on the matter, my first post was just me mulling over it (at your behest); it is actually about usage in reliable sources. Iskandar323 (talk) 17:22, 15 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Yup, understood. Now that part of the old definition of Middle East and all of the near Near East have fused together to just become Middle East, does that mean countries east of Iran are now considered the Far East? WikiAmerican1 (talk) 18:28, 15 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The pretty much standard current definition of the Middle East can be seen on the map in the infobox. There's not really a lot of confusion regarding this. Iskandar323 (talk) 18:48, 15 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Hahah I guess I’ll stop talking. Appreciate the insight!
WikiAmerican1 (talk) 22:19, 16 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Include Afghanistan?[edit]

Many sources include Afghanistan as a Middle Eastern country, not just part of the Greater Middle East. I believe Afghanistan can be included at the bottom of the lede. WikiAmerican1 (talk) 01:42, 1 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 27 August 2023[edit]

at start power bi at power query at erp systems at inventory control at java at all the good stuff at have the arabs solve their own problems at theft contorl and at transactions control at processes at machine learning 50.246.212.150 (talk) 21:12, 27 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Cannolis (talk) 21:24, 27 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Inclusion of Armenians[edit]

Armenians are indigenous to the Armenian Highlands, which is located in modern-day Eastern Turkey—thus making them a native people of the Middle East. Armenians are conspicuously absent in the section naming indigenous peoples of the region, despite it being the very first sentence in the article for Armenians itself. Please make a correction adding Armenians into the list of indigenous people to the Middle East.

Cited here are credible sources attributing Armenians’ indigenousness, taken from the Wikipedia article on Armenian people.[1] [2] [3] Syd Highwind (talk) 06:00, 16 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Definitions of the Middle East (itself an increasingly unpopular term) do not tend to include the Caucasus. It would be more accurate and current to say that Armenians are a West Asian people. Iskandar323 (talk) 10:06, 16 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Not disagreeing entirely with you there, though I would point out that this article includes a point that Armenia, Azerbaijan and Georgia are occasionally included in the definition and that Armenia is usually included in the “Greater Middle East”. But I specifically stated that I am asking for Armenians to be included in a line in the article regarding indigenous people of the Middle East under the “Ethnic Groups” subsection. While modern-day Armenia is located in the Southern Caucasus, Armenians being indigenous to what is considered to be part of the Middle East (Eastern Turkey) is irrefutable. There is also still a sizable population of Armenians within the Middle East itself, mainly in Lebanon, Iran, Cyprus, Syria, Jerusalem, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Iraq and Turkey. Syd Highwind (talk) 20:29, 16 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
This article isn't about what ethnic groups have criss-crossed the region or what populations either used to live in the area or currently populate the area. There are hundreds of ethnic groups (maybe more) which have historical connections to the region and even more which call the region home today (just look at the UAE as an example). If that were the focus of the article, the article would be outrageously long. The article's principal focus is on political geography. The Caucasus region, where the modern Republic of Armenia is presently located in, is a distinct geographical region intersecting West Asia/Eastern Europe and is not classified as part of the Middle East proper (by most academics). Perhaps your suggestion is better presented at Ethnic groups in the Middle East? However, I should also point out that the vast majority of the Armenian population today lives outside the Middle East. According to Armenians/Armenian diaspora, the top five countries where Armenians reside are outside the Middle East (that being Armenia, Russia, United States, France, and Georgia). Archives908 (talk) 23:04, 16 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
If that’s the case, then why does the article have an entire subsection dedicated to Ethnic Groups if it’s just concerning geopolitical definitions? All I’m requesting is that Armenians—who are, again, indigenous to the region—be included in the part that is listing native groups to the region, especially considering that there is still a sizable presence of Armenians in the Middle East. Considering that this topic was also broached back in February by a different user, I’d say it’s something that merits mention. I myself am Armenian, and to not include Armenians as indigenous to the region reads as erasure/historical revisionism. And while you do have a point with where our diaspora is mostly located, the Middle East is generally excluded from that list because most Armenian settlements in the region predate the diaspora created by the Armenian Genocide. Syd Highwind (talk) 23:13, 17 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Its a subsection that's 3 sentences long -_- Which proves my point, ethnic groups of the region is not the primary focus of this article. A sizeable presence? You make it seem as if there are millions of Armenians in the Middle East. There are not. In fact, there are more Sri Lankans and Pakistanis in the Middle East than Armenians. To add information about one group, while omitting more sizeable groups, is a violation of WP:UNDUE. Archives908 (talk) 17:15, 18 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]


References

  1. ^ Hewsen, Robert H. "The Geography of Armenia" in The Armenian People From Ancient to Modern Times Volume I: The Dynastic Periods: From Antiquity to the Fourteenth Century. Richard G. Hovannisian (ed.) New York: St. Martin's Press, 1997, pp. 1–17
  2. ^ "Armenian Rarities Collection". www.loc.gov. Washington, D.C.: Library of Congress. 2020. Archived from the original on 7 March 2023. Retrieved 16 September 2023. The lands of the Armenians were for millennia located in Eastern Anatolia, on the Armenian Highlands, and into the Caucasus Mountain range. First mentioned almost contemporaneously by a Greek and Persian source in the 6th century BC, modern DNA studies have shown that the people themselves had already been in place for many millennia. Those people the world know as Armenians call themselves Hay and their country Hayots' ashkharh–the land of the Armenians, today known as Hayastan. Their language, Hayeren (Armenian) constitutes a separate and unique branch of the Indo-European linguistic family tree. A spoken language until Christianity became the state religion in 314 AD, a unique alphabet was created for it in 407, both for the propagation of the new faith and to avoid assimilation into the Persian literary world.
  3. ^ "Armenia: Ancient and premodern Armenia". Encyclopædia Britannica Online. Encyclopædia Britannica, Inc. Archived from the original on 26 April 2019. Retrieved 16 September 2023. The Armenians, an Indo-European people, first appear in history shortly after the end of the 7th century BCE[, d]riving some of the ancient population to the east of Mount Ararat [...]

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 9 October 2023[edit]


  • In the table of countries and territories, the GDP column should have "billions" replaced by "millions". Alternatively, all numbers in that column could be divided by 1000 instead.:
  • All GDPs in this column appear to be off by 3 orders of magnitude.:

Unseemly Levity (talk) 17:11, 9 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

 Done Andumé (talk) 04:42, 10 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

References

Specifics of the term[edit]

As many of you know, the term has been used ever since the beginning of World War I up until the present day. During the years leading up to the present, the term has been extremely fluid, ranging from (and including) parts of North Africa, Central Asia, South Asia, West Asia (and even parts of Southeast and East Asia, aka Myanmar and Chinese turkestan respectively). What I’m saying is that there is no clear-cut definition of the term and it’s 100% dependent on historical context.


Is anyone in favor of possibly making an edit to include the following in the opening paragraph of this page: “the term Middle East has been used to denote a wide variety of areas and countries in North Africa and Asia. Depending on the historical context and culture at the time (for example, World War I and World War II), the definition of the term widely varied to specify the area and countries during that point in time that was deemed appropriate”. It does not have to be worded exactly like this (and quite frankly, it shouldn’t) but it’s worth pointing out blatantly at the top of this page. WikiAmerican1 (talk) 02:51, 14 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 11 December 2023[edit]

Palestine is one! Remove israel and the hebrew language! 89.211.210.82 (talk) 13:38, 11 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. CMD (talk) 13:55, 11 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Countries and territory emblems[edit]

Emblems in the Countries and territory section are almost all wrong and/or inaccurate and should be change and i don't have enough edits to do so and pls don't have the the picture's of the emblems and flag a redirect link to the country's wiki page just leave it as a normal picture Smint34 (talk) 10:27, 9 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

As to the "occupied" sub-section in the table[edit]

I think that it should changed to "Occupied or Annexed" since Israel annexed 2/4 of these territories. עמית לונן (talk) 18:39, 18 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Start section on Politics[edit]

I propose to start a section on politics/goverments/democracy. HudecEmil (talk) 12:42, 16 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 24 March 2024[edit]

Armenia is Middle Eastern; Armenia is native to the Middle East; and current Armenia is only what is left of Armenia due to colonization, occupation, and genocide. Armenia should be included in this definition of the Middle East. Türkiye is partly in the Armenian highlands, Europe, and the lesser Caucasus, but still considered the Middle East, while Armenia is also part of the Armenian highlands and in the lesser Caucasus, but not in Europe; the Middle East does not include Europe, and Armenia is completely part of West Asia. Geographynerdy (talk) 00:11, 25 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

 Not done: Opinionated. This topic has been discussed thoroughly; see archives for consensus. Archives908 (talk) 01:11, 25 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 19 April 2024[edit]

Add paragraph to Terminology section:

The term 'SWANA' has been used to refer to South-West Asia and North Africa. This term attempts to distinguish the region in geographical terms, rather than “political terms” as defined by the Western world.

Source: https://aapirc.ucsc.edu/swana/what-is-swana.html Gilgarbon (talk) 21:19, 19 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

 Not done: There is a separate page for the Middle East and North Africa which already mentions SWANA. This page covers a narrower region that does not include North Africa, except for Egypt. Jamedeus (talk) 18:09, 21 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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