Talk:Middle East/Archive 3

a small change

"In modern times the Middle East remains a strategically, economically, politically, culturally and religiously sensitive region."

If noone objects to this I will remove this part as it is a weasel phrase that conceals a certain bias. First of all, what does 'sensitive' mean? where are the limits for being sensitive. Secondly, to whom? Further on it does neither refer to any source nor does it give an example of this. This phrase is suitable for the article though not in the overview which the introduction is supposed to contain. Hxasmirl (talk) 08:08, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

Hi My name is Alfred Ftoni and i'm going to show you the four principal rivers. The four principal rivers in the Middle East are the Jordan River thats in Jordan the Nile River which is in Egypt the Tigris River and the Euphrates River. There are 24 countries in the Middle East.

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Largest citys

Hi. Can we get a list of the largest cities in this article? Is Cairo the largest? 83.108.208.23 (talk) 21:05, 11 April 2009 (UTC)

Romance of desert and monotheism

Some scholars romantically link monotheism with the open and spare desert landscape.

a) Which scholars? b) Even if true, NPOV would require other views (since clearly polytheistic religions existed in these areas before monotheistic ones - notably in ancient Egypt). c) Even if b) is dealt with, does it belong in the intro? Gordonofcartoon (talk) 17:15, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

Jerusalem?

This article asserts that jerusalem is the capital of israel and goes on to explain that it's only it's capital under israeli law. I didn't know wikipedia articles were writen from an israeli point of view. the most accurate thing would be to replace jerusalem with tel aviv since, after all that is it's capital and adding a note in the end that under israeli law jerusalem is the capital. That would be the right thing to do. thank you. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.142.61.3 (talk) 21:50, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

Middle East

Following earlier discussion on the issue, I have made some adjustments to ensure the article focuses on the epithet "Middle East" rather than building on an arbitrary construct. The related articles concerning geographic regions already contain the data in question. Anyone is free to question these changes, provided sound reason is involved in any objections. Izzedine (talk) 02:59, 25 May 2009 (UTC)

Enormous, repeated and insistent removal of basic information

See [3]. Kindly undo such a massive removal of basic information. Badagnani (talk) 03:15, 25 May 2009 (UTC)

Relax, the data is already contained in the Southwest Asia and North Africa articles. This article, like Near East concerns a vague and contentious epithet. The information hasn't been removed it's been moved to where it belongs. Izzedine (talk) 03:29, 25 May 2009 (UTC)

Trouble is, your edits are based only on your own opinion, and there is no consensus for them. --Athenean (talk) 08:38, 25 May 2009 (UTC)

Mid-East

I've often heard the Middle East referred to as the 'Mid-East' (or Mideast) when I've been in the USA - why is this term not mentioned in the intro? 93.96.236.8 (talk) 22:30, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

iran nominal gdp 345 billion dollars

smaller than Greece a bit bigger than Israel. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.7.225.53 (talk) 12:14, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

To Izzedine and Athenean

Izzedine, thank you for participating in this discussion. You and I are saying roughly the same thing, but you no doubt have a superior command of English, and have managed to bring forth your arguments far more successfully than I could ever have. Again, thank you.

Athenean, I see you once again accused me of something I haven't done. Does it not occur to you that my proposal has an emphasis on West Asia which lumps Turkey with the Asian portion of Arab world (and maybe Iran, unless it's considered South Asian) together? Then again Cyprus and Trancaucasian countries would have to be in the same boat (unfortunately, for you) which you have tried to be exclude in the past based on that they are European. While it's true that they're European as well under many circumstances, it's more so the case for Turkey anyway. So sorry, you can't have it both ways :)

I also see you arguing that religion is the most important part of culture when Izzedine expressed his observation about correlation between Muslim-ness and Middle Eastern-ness. Well, let me ask you one simple question: Concerning culture, which ones of the following ethnic groups would cluster together: Greeks, Albanians, Ethiopian Tigriyans, Somalis? Greeks with Tigrinyans and Albanians with Somalis, right? So according to you, living close to each other, Greeks and Albanians (or the other two) may have some superficial similarities, but in the end, it will always be that Greeks, being Christian, are culturally the same as Tigrinya and Albanians, being Muslim, are culturally the same as Somalis. Wonderful. Splendid. Excellent. I am truly speechless.

Besides, is this correlation mentioned in any part of the article?

And last, but not least, don't we already have an article called "Muslim world" [4]? -- Mttll (talk) 22:40, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

• What we think is correct is entirely irrelevant, what counts is what's commonly used and what external sources say. FunkMonk (talk) 23:41, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

The thing is, Mttllm, that what you're saying is nothing more than your own opinion. However, as Funk Monk said, what matters is how the source treat the Middle East. Look at other encyclopedias, for example. How do they treat the subject? The other thing is, this is a level-3 vital article (see top) and the changes you are proposing are major. Thus, a major discussion is needed to reach a solid consensus. I suggest you post on various wikiproject pages to get other users involved. Only then will a discussion representative of the wikipedia community take place. --Athenean (talk) 04:32, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

I am not adding any original thought to the content of the article. I am expressing my opinion on how to organize the article, which is perfectly legitimate. Now, if you tell me yours, we can have a discussion. If you think my concerns are unfounded, see Etymology-Criticism and Usage section in the article. Better yet, just take a look at the word, the Middle East. Middle of what? East of what? It was initially the Middle East as opposed to the Near East. Where did the Near East go? Sure, there are problems about the border between Asia and Europe or where Central Europe becomes Eastern Europe, where Western Asia becomes Southern Asia etc, but this term is simply not in the same league with those. The fact that the UN replaced it with West Asia serves my position. -- Mttll (talk) 06:44, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

The Middle East Is Also In Europe

Since Turkey, Armenia, Azerbaijan, and Georgia are Middle Eastern Countries and also partly in Europe this means that the Middle East is a part of Africa, Asia, and Europe.Eronel189 (talk) 20:37, 23 June 2009 (UTC)

You've got it backwards. Those countries are both in the ME and in Europe, but that does not mean the ME includes Europe. And you would need a source to back up something like that. As far as I can tell, i have never seen a source that claims such a thing. --Athenean (talk) 22:06, 23 June 2009 (UTC)

Armenia, Georgia, and Cyprus do not belong to the traditional Middle East but the Greater Middle East

This controversy has gone on long enough. People keep reverting the article yet nobody is providing any proof, or sources, or even discussing this issue on the talk page. This is not how WIKIPEDIA works!!! You need to have sources to back up what you are saying, and if a topic is controversial like it right now you need to discuss the issue on the talk page, provide reliable sources and reach a consensus. Only then should you revert the article once you discuss it on the talk page, provide reliable sources, and reach a consensus. This is how Wikipedia works!! I hear this back and forth and nobody is discussing anything on the talk page. My main point is that Armenia, Gerogia, and Cyprus are not part of the traditional view of the Middle East, but the Greater Middle East. You must understand that Armenia, Georgia, and Cyprus are related to Europe. All three countries are socio-politically a part of Europe and all of these countries have a Christian majority. In fact Armenia is almost 100 percent Christian. Georgia itself is not only socio-politically apart of Europe, European history and Christianity but large portions of Georgia are also physically in Europe because it is a trans-continental country. This means Georgia not only has great historical ties to European and Christian culture but the majority of it is actually in Europe, and Armenia has been Christian for over 1,700 years. You could argue that these countries even though they are Christian, Associated with Europe and its history, and some even partially in Europe are still close and bordering the Middle Eastern Countries such as Iran, and Turkey. You could argue this, but by this logic you are saying that any country that is around the vicinity of the Middle East is Middle Eastern. By this logic that would mean the Greece is also apart of the Traditional Middle East even though its European and Christian like Georgia. Greece borders Turkey and shares culture with Turkey because Turkey once belonged to Greece. If Armenia, Georgia, and Cyprus are apart of the traditonal Middle East, what would be the argument of not making Greece part of the traditional Middle East . Heck why stop there, Bulgaria is next Greece why not make Bulgaria also apart of the Middle East even though its European and Christian. Bulgaria also borders Turkey a Middle Eastern Country, and why not make Albania part of the Middle East, its next to Greece and unlike Cyprus, Armenia, and Georgia, Albania is actually 80% Muslim and is a predominately Muslim country and also physically close to the Middle East. Armenia, Georgia, and Cyprus are predominately Christian countries and you classify them as being in the traditional Middle East, whereas Albania another European country is also close to the Middle East and it actually is predominately Muslim yet its not part of the Middle East or even the Greater Middle East, why not? But why stop there Romania is near Bulgaria, and Bulgaria is near Moldova borders Ukraine, why not make them all Middle-Eastern because they are close by. Why should European and Christian countries be apart of the Middle East? By this reasoning should the United Kingdom, Scandanavia, and the Baltic States also be in the Middle East? Where will it stop? Please discuss this on the talk page, provide sources, and reach a consensus first before reverting anymore, because this is how Wikipedia works, no source, no good!!Eronel189 (talk) 21:55, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

I mostly agree with you, and I've been saying pretty much what you've been saying for months now. About Armenia and Georgia, I agree 100%. Most verifiable English-language sources do not generally associate them with the ME. About Cyprus, it is a little more complicated. Most maps of the ME include it, and it is geographically located within the ME and has ties with it. Its cluture has ME influences, and it has a lebanese maronite population, not to mention the Turks in the North. So i would be fine with leaving Cyprus in there, but not Armenia and Georgia. Now, if you look closer, the whole "dispute" is in fact caused by User:Mttll, who can't stand to see Turkey associated with the Middle East and causes endless disruption as a result. So he tries to associate as many other countries with the Middle East as possible, in the hope of diluting the presence of Turkey. This is ridiculous, it is POV-pushing, and needs to stop. --Athenean (talk) 22:26, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

I agree with Athenean. Cyprus is generally regarded as being part of the Middle East; which is where most atlases places it, including that of National Geographic ([5]) and Encarta ([6]). More importantly, the "source" of the two tables, the CIA World Factbook, classifies Cyprus as being Middle Eastern. Also, whilst not the exact same thing, the country is often also regarded as being in the Near East (cf. the sources on the article), or in West Asia (by the UN), both areas which includes most of the same countries as the Middle East. Whilst all three titles differ, they should at least provide an indication of Cyprus' general placement in that part of the world. As for more direct sources on the matter, take Columbia University's Middle East and Islamic Studies website ([7]), or Encyclopaedia Britannica ([8]), or The Washington Post ([9]), as academic and cultural-social examples of everyday inclusions of Cyprus in the Middle East. — Olympian (talk) 15:03, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

Edit: Eronel189, the Middle East is not defined by religion but by geography and history. Lebanon, Syria and Cyprus, for example, have large Christian communities, and Israel has a predominantly Jewish population, whilst Indonesia (in the Far East) has the largest Muslim-majority population in the world. So your (implied) theory that the Middle East and the Muslim World are synonymous is very much misinformed.

Some facts:

1. Christianity has originated in Palestine.

2. Armenians are Oriental Orthodox like Assyrians etc.

3. Israel is mostly non-Muslim, Lebanon is nearly half-half.

4. Armenia or Cyprus has no territory in Europe. Georgia and Azerbaijan may or may not. Turkey definitely does.

5. Tell me a context, for example, a European organization (the EU, Council of Europe etc) that considers Armenia European but not Turkey. Athenean, I'm waiting for this.

6. There aren't any hints in the article which implies that Middle East is a form of synonym of Muslim world. But there are hints that it's a synonym of West Asia. And South Caucasia, which includes entire Armenia, is a part of West Asia. I AGREEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE

Please don't make assumptions and don't attack me personally.--Mttll (talk) 21:17, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

I apologize if you feel I attacked you. Now, back on the subject, I agree with your point 1-3, but your points #4 and #5 are entirely irrelevant. This article has nothing to do with Europe. Whether or not a country has territory in Europe has no bearing on whether it is in the middle east. Your point #6 is wrong. What matters (and the only thing that matters) is what the sources say. Virtually all atlases (i.e. sources) include Turkey and Cyprus in their definition of the ME, but most do not include the Caucasus states. This is how wikipedia works, with sources. What you and I and international organizations think is irrelevant. Next time you're in a bookstore, go through some atlases and tell me if I'm wrong. --Athenean (talk) 21:28, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

Whether or not a country has territory in Europe has no bearing on whether it is in the middle east.

Are you sure you read what Eronel189 has written? His entire argument why Armenia or Georgia isn't Middle Eastern is based on that they are European. If that's so, the same thing goes for Turkey too, more so if anything. Very simple.

Next time you're in a bookstore, go through some atlases and tell me if I'm wrong.

You have a point. I have an old (pre-1990) atlas that show Turkey as Middle East but not Caucasia. I think it's because they used to be part of Soviet Union and it was convenient to lump them as Eastern Europe. But things have changed. Wikipedia is not some rusty book, it's something dynamic, right? Anyhow, that's just one atlas.

(Let me remind again:The United Nations for example has replaced term the Middle East with West Asia and included South Caucasian countries in it)

Let's use your method:

I typed "Middle East" in Google images

Here is a map that includes Turkey, Cyprus and Caucasia [10]

a map that includes Turkey, Cyprus but not Caucasia [11]

a map that includes none of them and is exclusively Asian Arab world + Israel + Iran (h t t p://www.mapsofworld.com/images/middle-east-map.jpg) (this site seems to be blocked for some reason)

a map that includes Caucasia but not Turkey [12]

"the Middle East" is a vague term, you can surely see that! That's why I suggested more emphasis on West Asia, North Africa etc articles.

Oh, btw, why don't you guys ever address the case of Azerbaijan? Curious --Mttll (talk) 21:51, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

I am not Eronel, and his argument is flawed in that respect. I repeat: Whether a country has territory in Europe or whether it is part of European organizations is irrelevant to this article. It is relevant to the Europe article. I also did a google search. About 95% of maps include Cyprus and Turkey, about 75% include caucasia. But a google search isn't the best method. Ideally, one should look at verifiable English-language sources, such as atlases published by major publishing houses. Next time I'm in a bookstore, I will do that, and will return to this disucssion with what I have found. If you and the other participants in this discussion did the same, I think that we would be able to have a more productive discussion. --Athenean (talk) 23:30, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

Personally, I think we should leave the table as it stands. As Athenean indicated, 95% of maps include Turkey and Cyprus, only 75% Caucasia - certainly not the most reliable method, but one which highlights a widespread consensus that the first two countries are generally part of the Middle East, whilst the latter three only fit into a "greater" expansion of the area's definition.

Just to add to the atlas research, the Reader's Digest Great World Atlas includes most of the Arab states, Egypt, Iran, Pakistan, Afghanistan and Turkey in The Middle East, and the remaining Arab countries - those bordering the Med, from Syria to Israel - and Cyprus in The Levant (essentially a zoom-in on the much broader map of the Middle East). Caucasia does appear in the Middle Eastern map, as well as the Eastern European, but the states are not specified under the list of Middle Eastern/Levantine countries. This supports the idea of these countries only being part of the "greater" Middle East.

My only concern with the table now is the inclusion of China and the Northern/Central Asian republics (the -stans, apart from Pakistan and Afghanistan) in the "greater" Middle East. To my knowledge, China is always part of the Far East, the very opposite side of Asia; and I find it a stretch to include every Asian country up until the Far East into the category of Middle Eastern for the sake of merely including all Asian countries in one of the two 'sides' of the continent. Can we at least remove China and, unless reliable sources indicate otherwise, also the other Northern/Central republics from the table? — Olympian (talk) 14:43, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

Only countries that have been classified as part of this should be included. How China enters the picture is a bit unclear. FunkMonk (talk) 22:25, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

population of mauretania and western sahara

In the greater middle east section, the populations of Mauritania and Western Sahara are by far overrated. Mauritania has about 3,000,000 citizens and Western Sahara about 500,000.

Please correct these numbers!

| Mauritania | align="right" | 446,550 | align="right" | 33,757,175 | align="right" | 70 | Nouakchott | $6.221 billion (2008) | $2,052 (2008) | Ouguiya | Military junta | Arabic |- | Western Sahara | align="right" | 163,610 | align="right" | 10,102,000 | align="right" | 62 | El Aaiun |

the term middle east may have originated in the 1850s in the british india office and become more widely known when american naval strategist alfred thayer mahan used the term during this time the british and russian empires were vying for influence in central asia,a rivalry which would become known as the great game.mahan realized not only the strategic importance of the region,but also of its center,the persian gulf.He labeled the area surrounding the persian gulf and internation relations published in september 1902 in the national review,a british journal. the middle east,if may adopt a term which I have not seen,will some day need its malta,as well as its gibraltar;it does not follow that either will be in the persian gulf.naval force has the quality of mobility which carries with it the privilege of temporary absences;but it needs to find on every scene of operation established bases of refit,of supply,and in case of disaster of security.the british navy should have the facility to force if occasion arise,about aden,india,and the persian gulf. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.190.74.180 (talk) 22:18, 12 November 2009 (UTC)

Typo

Can't edit it as it is semi-protected. there is a typo in the first two lines shown in italics:

The Middle East (or, formerly more common, the Near East[1]) is a region that spans southwestern Asia and northern Africa. Mistakenly and only in the last five to seven years some have added Pakistan, Afghanistan, and India to the list of Middle Eattren countries.

Could someone take care of this? Thanks Gomedog (talk) 06:14, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

Accuracy of the term

"It is important to point out that the geographical term, Middle East, represents the point of view of those who live in the western part of the world and it is only accurate to use if you actually do live to the west of the Middle East."

I removed this from the lead paragraph because it is not true. People in Australia and New Zealand and India and South Africa use the term "middle east" accurately (Perth Sunday Times [13], New Zealand Herald [14], Times of India [15] South Africa's Mail and Guardian [16]) as I'm sure do english speakers everywhere else in the world. It is not at all important to point out that it is only technically "to the east but not all the way east" from one perspective in the lead. Something similar might be appropriate in the etymology section. Jieagles (talk) 18:40, 13 December 2009 (UTC)

I totally agree with you. The reason that sentence is there is because some users are very, very keen to state that the "Middle East" is a Eurocentric term right at the outset. In fact, a while back, a group of users wanted to pretty much re-write the article along those lines. --Athenean (talk) 00:07, 14 December 2009 (UTC)

So do I. The Daily Star from Beirut [17] and the Asia Times from Hong Kong [18] have Middle East sections, too. --Ankimai (talk) 22:18, 14 December 2009 (UTC)

So my edit was reverted, then reinstated and the reverted again so instead of continuing the edit war I would like to propose a compromise sentence which hopefully will keep the idea that the term represents a European perspective while not stating that the term should not be used in other regions when clearly it is. I would suggest, "As a geographic term, the name reflects the European perspective of its early users, though it is now used throughout the English-speaking world" I look forward to the discussion. Jieagles (talk) 00:12, 19 December 2009 (UTC)

Sounds good to me. --Athenean (talk) 00:15, 19 December 2009 (UTC)

Wikipedia is a descriptive encyclopedia, so sentences that start with "mistakenly" are generally out of place. I've removed the commentary sections from the lead paragraph. The "Middle East" is what it is and it doesn't matter if some people don't like it. The comment about it being only accurate for those who live to the west is utterly silly. You are claiming that English speakers in Australia and India should not use it. That's an utterly ridiculous assertion. (Taivo (talk) 01:04, 19 December 2009 (UTC))

I completely agree. I have added a "sometimes" to your edits in the lead, regarding the inclusion of north africa and south asia. However, given the history of the article I would not be surprised if your edits were reverted, with or without comment here, which is why I was trying to create a consensus. Jieagles (talk) 01:37, 19 December 2009 (UTC)

The Location of the Middle east is in Central Asia (Kazakastan, Turkministan, Kyrgystan, Uzbekistan, Afghanistan, Tajikistan, some times even Mongolia). You have forgot to mention that Gulf Arab states don't use these terminology to refer to themselves.

Middle East = Central Asia i.e. Middle = Central. The term was first coined by the British Empire to refer to their empire. Parts of China was also considered part of the "Middle East" since it was under the British control. Also India to some degree was also part of their "Middle East" but the information failed to give any information about India. As the information shows you put the terms Middle East to refer it to the "Near East" which doesn't make any sence since Middle and Near are to different words and pysical locations. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.117.201.18 (talk) 14:17, 7 August 2010 (UTC)

The Terms which are properly used in those regions Countries for that Region are Mesopotamia(Iraq), Levantine Countries(Syria, Lebanon, Palestine/Israel, Jordan), Arabian Peninsula(Saudi Arabia, Bahrain, Kuwait, Qatar, UAE, Oman, Yemen) Not this superficial British term called "Middle East" which makes the person in using the words falsly attribute it to the "Middle of the East" Meaning the location wise it would be probably some where in Mongolia or Kazakistan which is where it should be. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.117.201.18 (talk) 14:22, 7 August 2010 (UTC)

Not Altaic

Scythian, unless you are a trained historical linguist like I am, I suggest that you back off your insistence on calling Turkish "Altaic". That is a term for a sprachbund, not a valid linguistic family. Most historical linguists rejected the notion of Altaic 30 or so years ago, even though a few still cling to it. I've been teaching linguistics at the university level for 30 years and know a bit more about the subject that you do. Turkish is "Turkic", not "Altaic". You've asked for a "third opinion", so I've asked two other (real-world) professionals in historical linguistics to weigh in here. (Taivo (talk) 20:22, 26 December 2009 (UTC)

• Just like you, I have no less than 15 Ph.D's in the field of linguistics. So, lets get a third opinion on this matter, and perhaps a fourth and fifth. All from credentialed Wikipedia editors, of course. The Scythian 20:49, 26 December 2009 (UTC)

I am one of the professionals Taivo asked to chip in. I agree that Altaic is not generally recognized as a demonstrated linguistic family. The best and most neutral description of Turkish is that it "is a Turkic language and that as such it has been included in the controversial Altaic hypotheis".·Maunus·ƛ· 08:29, 27 December 2009 (UTC)

• I am a professional, and I disagree, so there. Now, please go consult the Wikipedia guidelines on original research. Add some sources instead of making the internet argument that you are some kind of "professional", as though that is solely enough. This is all pretty fishy as it is. The Scythian 00:58, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

Lyle Campbell & Mauricio J. Mixco, A Glossary of Historical Linguistics (2007, pg. 7): "While 'Altaic' is repeated in encyclopedias and handbooks most specialists in these languages no longer believe that the three traditional supposed Altaic groups, Turkic, Mongolian and Tungusic, are related." There's your authoritative quote. I suggest that you cease your personal attacks, as well, Scythian. I've been teaching linguistics at a major US university for longer than most Wikipedia editors have been able to legally drink. (Taivo (talk) 01:27, 28 December 2009 (UTC))

• Good! You finally have a single source, and that is exactly what is needed. Stating that you are an "expert" and therefore "correct" is meaningless here, and a false argument at that. Your claim to teach linguistics at a major university are non-verifiable and irrelevant to Wikipedia, according to the above noted policies. Unless of course you are using a scholarly published source that you have actually written, which I would completely support you doing so. As far as personal attacks are concerned, I haven't made any so far, but your attitude is clearly confrontational. Stating that you are in the right simply because of a claim to professorship is meaningless. Sources are what are needed. If you believe that the Altaic theory is obsolete(I do not necessarily disagree), then source it. Do not give the nonsense argument that your educational background is in this area, and you are therefore correct by default, and nothing more is needed. That defeats the very purpose of Wikipedia. I deliberately shy away from articles dealing with my educational and working professional background for that very reason. I want to avoid behaving in exactly such a manor that you are doing so here. So, I would hope to see from you no more orders to "back off" on account that you claim authoritative expertise in this field. It is really rather pointless, and it goes against the very grain of this project. Oh, and I almost forgot. Here is my source[19]. The Scythian 06:45, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

If you want more sources about the controversiality of the altaic hypothesis you could read the Wikipedia article on Altaic it is quite explicit in stating that there is nowhere near agreement about what languages Altaic might include or if it is a valid grouping at all - and it is fairly well sourced. ·Maunus·ƛ· 08:19, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

• Yah, I was looking though that article just now. Interesting read, and as you said, well sourced. The Scythian 09:31, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

Fascinating, Scythian. You claim that your source supports Altaic, yet if you had read the source (from 1987!) you would find (on page 479) the statement, "All of us found that we regard the hypothesis of a grand Proto-Altaic family spanning the entire Eurasian landmass with considerable suspicion." And further down the page, "We found Proto-Altaic, at best, a premature hypothesis and a pragmatically poor foundation on which to build a research program." Pretty much end of story. Even in the "anonymous" world of Wikipedia, specialists tend to know what they are talking about. (Taivo (talk) 08:29, 28 December 2009 (UTC))

• I never claimed anywhere that it did defend a "Altaic hypothesis", but only that it was a "source", or in this case a number of different sources digested into a single publication. As such, I wanted source(s), as opposed to an egoistical diatribe, and now we are starting to get them. That is good. I should also suggest that you might resist reading between the lines in my discussion postings. After all, with the cognitive faculties that you surely possess as a university level academic and scholar, you must realize the benefits of keeping a cool head in any debate. The Scythian 09:31, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

Cradle of Civilization

Using the phrase "cradle of civilization" is POV. If you want to rephrase to say that it's the "cradle of Western civiliation" (and link to the article on Western World or some such), then that's not POV. But to make the blanket statement that it is the cradle of "all" civilization is POV. (Taivo (talk) 00:58, 26 January 2010 (UTC))

Giving into the fact that it is a commonly used Western term, and there exists a Wiki article on the "cradle of civilization", there is a need for some reference to the term in the article, no matter how the term is viewed in the modern context(I for one see it as obsolete). Completely removing the term is just strange. The concept does exist, and at the very least should be noted in some form. The Scythian 01:19, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

I would have to agree with Scythian here. The civilizations of the ME predate those of any other region, including those of the Indus River Valley and China, and I know that Jared Diamond at least believes that agriculture and writing first arose there and spread to the rest of the world. The civilization of the ME has also had a profound impact on the civilization of India, not just the West. But regardless of this, there are numerous sources that refer to the ME as the "cradle of civilization" and this should be mentioned somehow. Now, this should be done carefully and in a measured manner, i.e. not some Izzedine-style claim that "The ME is cradle of civilization and everything good!", but should be done nonetheless. Athenean (talk) 02:00, 26 January 2010 (UTC)

So let's work on some good wording here on the Talk page. I'm not averse to that, but let's get the POV out of the article until then. Yes, it's been called the "cradle of civilization" many times, but the U.S. has also been called "the land of the free" many times as well. That doesn't mean we have to produce it as an accepted fact just because it has appeared in print. (Taivo (talk) 20:36, 26 January 2010 (UTC))

If we are to believe Michael Mann, who discusses the matter at quite a length in The Sources of Social Power: A history of power from the beginning to A.D. 1760, there were at least four cradles:

"... only a few cases of the emergence of civilization were autonomous. So far as we know, there were four literate, urban, and ceremonially centered groups that seem to have arisen independently of each other in Eurasia: the Sumerians of Mesopotamia; the Egyptians of the Nile Valley; the Indus Valley civilization in present-day Pakistan; and the people of several North China river valleys, beginning with the Yellow River. Only the earliest, Sumer, is certainly independent, and so there has been periodic interest in diffusion and conquest theories of the other cases. However, the present consensus among specialists is to accord all four probable independent status. To these some add a fifth, the Minoans of Crete, though this is disputed. If we turn to other continents, we can, perhaps, add two further cases, the pre-Columbian civilizations of Mesoamerica and Peru, probably not in contact with one another, and independent of Eurasia. This makes a probable total of six independent cases. However, no two authors agree on exact numbers." (1986; p.74) - Ankimai (talk) 11:46, 3 February 2010 (UTC)

That quote shows quite well that to call any one place "cradle of civilization (unqualified)" would be plain wrong. I don't see why "cradle of western civilization" would be problematic? Except for the fact that "civiolization" is actually itself a quite bad term that doesn't really have a good or all accepted definition.·Maunus·ƛ· 12:08, 3 February 2010 (UTC)

Edit request from 217.216.89.35, 17 April 2010

{{editsemiprotected}} Ir reads "Caucacus", should read "Caucasus"

217.216.89.35 (talk) 11:35, 17 April 2010 (UTC)

Done and thanks! --JokerXtreme (talk) 14:09, 17 April 2010 (UTC)

Greater Middle East

• Sudan location should be moved from Horn of Africa to North Africa --195.229.235.45 (talk) 18:34, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

Done --Antime •(Talk) 14:39, 10 May 2010 (UTC)

Why is Ethiopia not considered part of the Middle East?

I was wondering that why isn't Ethiopia considered part of the Middle East? It has a long history of association with the Middle East culturally and historically. Its population is Semitic, it has been deeply associated with Judaism, Christianity and Islam. Moreover, it is surrounded on the northern and eastern sides by Middle East. So why not consider as a part of the Middle East? Can anyone help?(QadeemMusalman (talk) 12:00, 23 May 2010 (UTC))

Many areas surrounding the Middle East have been influenced by the region, but they are not geographically considered part of the Middle East. (Taivo (talk) 13:09, 23 May 2010 (UTC))

It is clear that the powers that be want to define the middle east as Muslim countries from looking at the map. Also from llooking at the map, they might as well quit while they are ahead because those are too many pieces of land to call a region. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.127.179.161 (talk) 04:48, 15 September 2010 (UTC)

Why insisting on Pakistan and Afghanistan to be part of Middle East?

Just because these countries have a Muslim population it does not mean they are part of the Middle East. People should stop posting wrong information on wikipedia. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Wikipersian (talk • contribs) 06:40, 7 June 2010 (UTC)

Afghanistan can be considered the greater Middle east because of historical and geo political reasons. Afghanistan's culture is influenced very much by Arab and Iranian cultures (even their both the main languages in the country are derived from the Middle East), and being a muslim country has nothing to do with Afghanistan being apart of the middle east because Afghanistan was apart of the Persian Empire, so there for if Iran is in the middle east Afghanistan should be there also because of the Iranian plateau. Now Pakistan should not be considered because culturally they are tied to India, which neither Iran or Afghanistan is. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.10.102.231 (talk) 11:47, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

Afghanistan and Pakistan should be considered part the Middle East.

Afghanistan and Pakistan should be considered part of the Middle East because firstly Afghanistan is historically and geographically part of the Iranian Plateau and it has been part of the Persian, Parthian, Sassanind, Greek Empires and the Arab Ummayad and Abbasid dynasties. Moreover, there is a striking Persian culture in every part of Afghanistan.

As for Pakistan, of its four provinces two lie on the Iranian Plateau i.e. Balochistan and Khyber Pakhtoonwah (formerly NWFP). Half o the provinces of Balochistan is in Iran and half is in Pakistan. Moreover, Pakistan also has been part of the Persian, Parthian, Greek, Ummayad and Abbasid Empires.

The Sindh and Balochistan and South Punjab provinces were part of the Ummayad and Abbasid dynasties. Punjab was the part of the Persian Ghaznavid and Ghorid dynasties. The people of Balochistan and Khyber are Iranian Peoples. As for Islam yes it is not the only factor why Pakistan should be considered part of the Middle East, but undoubtedly Islam is a very significant factor. It is also because of language and culture that Pakistan should be considered part of the area known as the Middle East. Urdu is a blend of Arabic, Persian and Turkish. Urdu is written Nastaliq script which Arabo-Persian. Even Punjabi, is also written in Shahmukhi script again Arabo-Persian.

If you think of Bangldesh, Indonesia and Malaysia. I see those countries cut off from the rest of the Islamic world in culture and languages because Bangladesh, Indonesia and Malaysia are immensely influenced by the Asian Cultures and Bangladesh (esp by Hindu culture). Do not forget that Pakistan and India are staunchest enemies of each other. So, therefore Pakistan can never be tied up with India. Indian TV Channels are banned in Pakistan, there are huge trade restrictions and visa restrictions, citizens of both countries are reluctant to visit each other.

I think and believe that the areas stretching from Morocco and Balkans to Pakistan and from Russian Tatarstan to Sudan should be considered part of the same area. And Pakistan can never be tied up with India!

(QadeemMusalman (talk) 12:17, 26 June 2010 (UTC))

Spelling

There are several spelling and grammer mistakes in the Languages section of the article... I feel it is somewhat ironic... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.160.178.203 (talk) 18:35, 4 October 2010 (UTC)

Main article on ethnic groups of the Middle East no longer exists

There was a redirect to Demographics of the Arab League which is a somewhat different subject. So I changed main article hatnote to a see also hatnote to the Demographics article. - KeptSouth (talk) 10:15, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

Bahai faith?

In the intro, you are including bahai as a major religion?? is bahai a major religion??? I hope this is fixed soon. --216.249.0.227 (talk) 20:25, 28 November 2010 (UTC)

Yes, it is often included as such in recent decades. It is included in statistical comparisons at Major world religions. 66.183.11.233 (talk) 22:44, 16 December 2010 (UTC) (User:Zazaban, not logged in)

Western Sahara Population

In the article I could not modify the part of the table, regarding the population of Wester Sahara. It is not 10.000.000 people (lika Tunisia!), but 513,000, as reported in the article regarding Western Sahara. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.97.48.100 (talk) 14:18, 4 December 2010 (UTC)

Turkey Cypruc

I don't think Turkey and Cypruce should be presented in the narrowist deffinition of the middle east since thay're commonly considerd part of europe.--J intela (talk) 21:01, 6 January 2011 (UTC)

I agree, there is not enough emphasis on the contraversy/difficulty in exactly defining which countries constitutes the 'Middle East', the list of 'Traditional' and 'Greater' Middle East are only sourced by the World bank and the IMF and is only one narrow definition. I would not personally consider Turkey or Cypress as part of the Middle east. I would suggest at least another section explaining these dificulties. Megatonman (talk) 16:50, 18 April 2011 (UTC)

G8 definition of the Greater Middle East

I've removed "G8 definition" from the reference to the "Greater Middle East" on the map, as there is no reference in either article to it having been used in a G8 meeting, much less endorsed by G8 leaders.

I'm not too happy about the result, however, as it makes it sounds as though "Greater Middle East" is a common term for those countries, whereas it doesn't appear to be a term of any real significance.

Can anyone think of a better description for the term? Aoeuidhtns (talk) 13:40, 27 January 2011 (UTC)

Globalize template discussion proposal

Hallo there,

maybe this article should have the {{globalize}} template at the beginning...

Links to other languages have slightly different meanings.

Not to mention that the article starts with:

"The Middle East (from a European perspective) (...)".

I hope this comment it's not going to be considered POV. Please assume good faith.

Thanks for your attention.

Maurice Carbonaro (talk) 09:51, 2 February 2011 (UTC)

Link to German Article is "Naher Osten"

The English term "Middle East" directly translates to the German words "Mittlerer" and "Osten". But in German language the tem "Mittlerer Osten" is used for the area from Iran eastwards, the term "Naher Osten" (which would directly translate from "Near East") matches the area of the Englisch term "Middle East" (Syria, Israel, Jordan ...). So I will change the link to the German language article to "Naher Osten" as this is the area "Middle East" refers to. --Orangwiki (talk) 18:17, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

I reverted this, as there is no 1 to 1 correspondence, a literal link seems better. -- Perrak (talk) 19:30, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

Here is a discussion in German between me and Perrak [20]. The article "Middle East" now links to the German article "Mittlerer Osten" again which is decribing a completely different territory and shoud be considered wrong. But Wikipedia rules about if A points to B then B needs to point back at A seems to make this inevitable. If someone has an idea to improve this go ahead. So far now this article will point to a German word that describes an area that is completely differnt. --Orangwiki (talk) 21:11, 30 January 2011 (UTC)

Near East is a narrow term used more in Archaeology really, it even has its own article. Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie Say Shalom! 16:51, 14 May 2011 (UTC)

Flinders Petrie: You're probably right about the English term "Near East", but the German term "Naher Osten" means exactly what the English term "Middle East" means. --Orangwiki (talk) 19:19, 3 September 2011 (UTC)

Well, they're kind of the same thing in English too, but Naher Osten appears to get more hits. As a side not, is that genetiv? Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie | Say Shalom! 00:09, 4 September 2011 (UTC)

Just take a look at the map displayed at "Mittlerer Osten" and the one displayed at "Naher Osten" and it should be obvious that the link should point to the latter. And no, Mittlerer Osten as well as Naher Osten are nominativ. --46.21.99.28 (talk) 21:05, 30 July 2012 (UTC)

Demographics

Ethnic groups

See also: Demographics of the Arab League

Various ethnic and religious types present in the Middle East, 19th century

The Middle East is home to numerous ethnic groups, including Arabs, Maronites Turks, Persians, Jews, Kurds, Assyrian/Chaldean/Syriacs, Armenians, Azeris, Circassians, Greeks and Georgians.

Nassif.seif (talk) 03:50, 19 February 2011 (UTC)

Partly done -- I added the Maronites, but didn't see any reason to remove the Copts. If you'd like any further help, contact me on my user talk page. You might instead want to put a {{help me}} template up on your own user talk, or put the {{edit semi-protected}} template back up on this page and either way someone will be along to help you. :) Banaticus (talk) 11:07, 19 February 2011 (UTC)

Edit request from 94.254.1.129, 25 April 2011

It is dubious to have French and Greek listed amongst the "languages" in the middle-east. They have a very brief history in the region and a nominal presence. They lay in the same bracket with native languages like Armaic, Persian, Kurdish and Arabic which is mistake. They should have a category of their own since they obviously are different in status then the rest.

94.254.1.129 (talk) 23:13, 25 April 2011 (UTC)

Not done: Greek is one of the official languages of Cyprus, and French is used in Lebanon. — Bility (talk) 22:32, 28 April 2011 (UTC)

Funny bit in the lede, and some other stuff

This is something that made me laugh when I read it: "In modern times the Middle East remains a strategically, economically, politically, culturally and religiously sensitive region.[clarification needed]" Clarifying that statement in a small amount of time would be quite a task. Just in Israel and Palestine alone, you have continuous conflict for over 3.000 years (though more in the last 2.400 years). Hell, in Jerusalem alone, you've had 118 battles in the last 3.000 years (Source: Jerusalem Besieged by Eric H. Cline). If you're talking about the whole region, how do you condense that idea into the lede so that it doesn't need further clarification? I assume sensitive here means that people fight over it.

Also, hi, I'm Flinders Petrie (not the real one of course, he's quite deceased), and I'll state my biases right now so that they don't get in the way of editing this article. I am an ardent Zionist with a strong pro-Israel view, however I harbour no ill-feelings towards any other other peoples of the Middle East, including the Palestinians. I believe that the article should convey what the reliable sources say, even if we're not happy with what they say.

So I see this article is rated a C-Class. I have two questions, A, can an article on such a contentious topic can ever reach Featured Class? If so, how can we better get it there and avoid the sort of conflict that pervades the subject region? (though thankfully we don't have to be worried about getting shot) Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie Say Shalom! 18:16, 14 May 2011 (UTC)

That is an interesting clarification needed location. The lead of course could be longer, but you can't go into full details of all the conflicts, even in the actual article itself. It'd be way too long. Anyway, improving this article would first of all require more sources. Can this reach FA status? Perhaps, although no regional article I know of has. How is conflict avoided? By editors discussing and accepting some things may be written not fully in line with their viewpoint. Anyway, that is secondary to actually getting sourced content on the page. That should be the priority in article improvement, rather than figuring out where it leans. Chipmunkdavis (talk) 05:30, 15 May 2011 (UTC)

We could look to see how different authors have characterised the idea of it being filled with conflict. I agree that is how we avoid conflict, but first you have to get them to actually discuss and agree! xD Well sourced content shouldn't be too hard given how many people have written on it. The only thing we need to figure out on those is which are best to use. =) I think given the fact that this region is so rich in history, culture, and everything else that makes it so wonderful, it deserves to be, nay, must be allowed to be fixed to the point where it can be an FA. I think most of the editors can agree on having a love of this region. Maybe that love can somehow be used to get them to give up their own biases and want to give her the sort of article worthy of her? Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie Say Shalom! 05:56, 15 May 2011 (UTC)

No need to give up on it. True, it is an article written by non-experts who like the animals of animal farm have to learn to do things far beyond their capabilities. Any expectation of a good article any time soon needs to be tempered. But, articles do improve with gradual refinement over time. Oh, there is one point I see offhand, and that is the mention of traditional definitions as though those ever existed. This is a dynamic field, always has been. I'm not so sure "traditional" actually means anything here.Dave (talk) 10:28, 20 June 2011 (UTC)

Afghanistan is part of the middle east

You should add a map that shows afghanistan as part of the middle east. Most afghans are an iranic/iranian people, and are tied with Iran. Although geographically part of central asia and western asia, Afghanistan shares only a little with it's central asian turkic neighbors( uzbeks and turkmen in the north). Here is a map that you can put up instead of the current map.http://www.globalresearch.ca/coverStoryPictures/13556.jpg (Metalman59 19:08, 24 August 2011 (UTC)) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Metalman59 (talk • contribs)

ISS Videos

I think the Videos right under "Contents" should be moved down, maybe to the end of the article. They are, without any doubt, very nice to watch. But i think their encyclopedic value is not very high. Duff06 (talk) 15:23, 29 November 2011 (UTC)

 Done: I agree. Regardless of encyclopaedic value (or lack thereof), their old location was downright disruptive. So I moved them down into a "Gallery" section. -- Skysmurf  (Talk) 00:36, 4 January 2012 (UTC)

Edit request on 1 January 2012

Turkey cannot be categorised in the list of Traditional definition of the Middle East.

Oztgy001 (talk) 02:14, 1 January 2012 (UTC)

Would you provide a source for this? carl bunderson (talk) (contributions) 03:48, 5 January 2012 (UTC)

Pakistan is not in the Middle East

Pakistan is not considered to be in the Middle East by most Pakistanis. Moreover, geographically, it is a part of South Asia, not the Middle East. Pakistan was a part of India until 1947, and up till now, its culture is very similar to Indian culture, and is not like Middle Eastern culture. Although majority of the population is Muslim, no one speaks Arabic, and just the religion doesn't make the country a part of the Middle East. I am a Pakistani National, and I have talked to many (around 50) people (Americans with reputable knowledge on South Asia, and Pakistanis who find it bizarre that anyone should consider Pakistan a part of the Middle East).

Therefore I would highly appreciate if you did more research before listing Pakistan as part of the extended Middle East. Personally I would like Pakistan to be removed from the list. Anyone who reads this article assumes that Pakistani culture is Middle-Eastern, rather than South Asian. Since I have lived in Pakistan all my life, I think our culture is wholly South Asian, and has no Middle-Eastern elements. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 131.229.180.71 (talk) 06:59, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

I do not think that cultural aspects are the deciding factor here as Georgia and Somalia also have no cultural similarities. I think "extended middle east" makes it perfectly clear that Pakistan is not considered to be a part of the middle east in its closest sense. But at least american and european media often put Pakistan into the category "middle east". --Duff06 (talk) 09:28, 4 January 2012 (UTC)

Just my two cents: the term "Middle East" is broad (if not vague) and can mean many things. Perhaps Pakistan ought not to be considered part of the Middle East culturally, but geographically it's borderline and politically it's probably justified. It all depends on what exactly is meant by (extended) Middle East and that varies. Perhaps the article could/should explain more clearly that the term Middle East can mean many things and that some countries may or may not be part of it, depending on what (and by whom) is meant exactly. -- Skysmurf  (Talk) 20:17, 4 January 2012 (UTC)

Middle east is more of a political term and therefore, Pakistan IS IN the middle east. — Preceding unsigned comment added by KurdWarrior (talk • contribs) 13:30, 7 May 2012 (UTC)

Such logic makes no sense. When the inhabitants of Bosnia and Albania converted to Islam, does that mean the balkans have become part of the middle east? No.

Geographically speaking, Pakistan is part of the Indian Plate so it is part of the Indian subcontinent and hence part of South Asia.

When Alexander the Great conquered India, those lands are actually situated in modern day Pakistan. Centuries later when the Arab armies invaded the Indian subcontinent and forced the locals to convert to Islam, the new converts are still Indian in ethnicity and do not automatically become middle-easterners because they never were middle-easterners in the political sense. --G. Campbell (talk) 09:19, 9 March 2013 (UTC)

Edit request on 14 January 2012

Please change the capital of Israel from Jerusalem to Tel Aviv because the former is not officially recognised as the capital city of Israel (especially as east Jerusalem is recongised as officially belonging to Palestine) whereas the latter is.

163.1.51.13 (talk) 13:18, 14 January 2012 (UTC)

 Not done, see the note next to it: "2 Under Israeli law. The UN doesn't recognize Jerusalem as Israel's capital."--Jac16888 ^Talk 16:57, 23 January 2012 (UTC)

Very important clarification

Egypt is not in the Middle East. Neither is Greece. These are both Mediterranean countries. Russia, Uzbekistan, etc. are certainly not in the Middle East either. How can any of these articles be taken seriously when the most fundamental facts, such as basic geography, are incorrect? There is no edit on the page. Commenting here was the best alternative. Please see this link for a more accurate map of the Middle East.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.112.206.112 (talk • contribs) 21:57, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

And neither is Turkey  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bambitree (talk • contribs) 09:43, 18 September 2012 (UTC) 

Turkey

Why was Turkey removed by NadirTV on March 29, 2012? --24.44.84.169 (talk) 23:50, 18 May 2012 (UTC)

I don't know, but I've undone it. Thanks, CMD (talk) 02:02, 19 May 2012 (UTC)

Now, Istanbul has been removed in this [edit]. What is the problem here? --24.44.84.169 (talk) 01:06, 2 June 2012 (UTC)

Istanbul, which straddles both continents of Europe and Asia and thus in the Balkans region of Europe and the Middle East region of Asia has to to be indicated and categorized as part of these two continents and the two regions of these two continents. But not one or the other and excluded alltogether but always has to be included in all of them. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.224.27.127 (talk) 12:26, 3 June 2012 (UTC)

The Middle East isn't a region of Asia. Egypt, for example, is considered wholly Middle Eastern, despite having a relatively small territory in Asia. CMD (talk) 18:29, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

Britannica regards Libya as a normal Middle Eastern country, and goes so far as to note Algeria, Morroco, Tunisia, and even Greece are occasionally included in the Middle East. CMD (talk) 16:59, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

User:Justinian-of-Byzantium is edit-warring on this issue without presenting a case. In his mind, the Middle East is defined by continents (not true) and if a city is not wholly in one, it can't be included. I hope for some better oversight on this. 3RR seems to have been violated, in spirit, if not strictly within the 24H time limit. --SVTCobra (talk) 22:37, 25 June 2012 (UTC)

Edit request on 18 September 2012

I request that Turkey be removed from the list of middle eastern nations, as it is a Eurasian country not a middle eastern, even though it shares a border with themiddle east, that does not necessarily make it middle eastern. As the Wikipedia page for Turkey states its Eurasian, therefore consistency among Wikipedia pages would be appreciated. In addition the map pictured is incorrect as it also illustrates other countries which are also not middle eastern. Bambitree (talk) 09:41, 18 September 2012 (UTC)

Bambitree (talk) 09:41, 18 September 2012 (UTC)

Not done: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit semi-protected}} template. As far as I can tell it's usually considered part of the Middle East. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk) 20:03, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

Iran?

Why is Iran listed on BOTH "Traditional definition of the Middle East" and "Greater Middle East"? These are supposed to be mutually exclusive lists with one INCLUDING the other. Srsrox (talk) 18:13, 28 December 2012 (UTC)

I've removed the duplicate Iran from the "Greater Middle East" list. --Graminophile (talk) 22:55, 28 December 2012 (UTC)

Edit request on 30 January 2013

Your Middle East independent news from the Middle East Dahe97 (talk) 23:03, 30 January 2013 (UTC)

Not done: Inappropriate EL. —KuyaBriBri^Talk 04:56, 31 January 2013 (UTC)

Add footnote to first sentence?

MOS:LEADALT says: "Consider footnoting foreign-language and archaic names if they would otherwise clutter the opening sentence." I think that this is currently the case with this article. I would recommend putting all the non-English names for "Middle East" in a footnote. Cf. e.g. Augustus#cite_note-1, Akira_Kurosawa#cite_ref-2, The_Idiot#cite_note-OrigSpell-1. It Is Me Here ^{t / c} 13:41, 5 March 2013 (UTC)

Edit request on 16 March 2013

Istanbul is not a Middle Eastern city (city is located in Europe and Anatolia). Also, Turkey's Middle Eastern land ends with Taurus Mountains, that means Turkey is partially Middle Eastern. Can you please correct them. Texan013 (talk) 19:03, 16 March 2013 (UTC)

Many sources include Anatolia, and even Eastern Thrace, in the Middle East. CMD (talk) 19:39, 16 March 2013 (UTC)

Semi-protect

Please, could someone tell me if this is a semi-protect article? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 177.81.17.100 (talk) 17:42, 10 March 2013 (UTC)

The article is indeed semi-protected. CMD (talk) 19:41, 16 March 2013 (UTC)

Spelling of transcription of Arabic "Middle East"

The article lists "Asharq Al-Awsṭ" as the transcription of Arabic الشرق الأوسط, "the Middle East."

The second word should be rendered something like "'awsaṭ."

I sometimes hear Arabic students incorrectly say "awsṭ," and I think this is why.

A more appropriate transcription would be "aš-šharq al-'awsaṭ." The (') should hook toward the left. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.2.129.100 (talk • contribs) 17:06, 9 April 2013 (UTC)

Usage section needs to be updated

The article currently says:

"the area lying between and including Libya on the west and Pakistan on the east, Syria and Iraq on the North and the Arabian peninsula to the south, plus the Sudan and Ethiopia."[12] In 1958, the State Department explained that the terms "Near East" and "Middle East" were interchangeable, and defined the region as including only Egypt, Syria, Israel, Lebanon, Jordan, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, Bahrain, and Qatar.[16]"

I checked the sources that these statements are referring to, it should actually read:

"the area lying between and including Libya on the west and Pakistan on the east, Turkey on the North and the Arabian peninsula to the south, plus the Sudan and Ethiopia."[12] In 1958, the State Department explained that the terms "Near East" and "Middle East" were interchangeable, and defined the region as including Egypt, Syria, Israel, Lebanon, Jordan, Iraq, Saudi Arabia and the Persian Gulf sheikhdoms.[16]"

Can someone please update? Thanks. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.175.27.29 (talk) 17:42, 1 May 2013 (UTC)

Which region was British India considered to belong to?

When the Near/Middle/Far East system was current in the early 20th century, i. e., before "South Asia" and "Indian subcontinent" became preferred terms instead, which region was British India considered to belong to? The ("old") Middle East? The last paragraph in the section "Etymology" implies so, but the second paragraph in the section "Criticism and usage" omits any mention of any region or country in the subcontinent. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 19:17, 24 June 2013 (UTC)

Alternative to "Middle-East"?

Since "Middle-East" is considered 'eurocentric', what is the better term? "Arab Regions", "Arab World"? I've heard it referred to as the "Islamic World" and "Muslim World" also. But these seem to be a bit -centric as well (what do non-muslims in the region think of those terms?). "Islamic World" and "Muslim World", like "Middle East" and "Near East" are also historically fluidic. And what do non-Arabs think of their country being part of the "Arab Regions" or "Arab World"? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.111.44.124 (talk) 04:32, 18 July 2013 (UTC)

Greater Middle East grammar

{{|"Greater Middle East" is an additional Eurocentric concept, introduced in the West in the 1990s, and referring to the mostly-Islamic regions of North Africa, Western Asia and Central Asia; the use of "Greater Middle East" however was marginal and it has recently fell into disuse.}}

The quotation above contains errors in structure, punctuation, and tense. Here is a suggested re-writing:

"Greater Middle East" is a Eurocentric concept introduced in the 1990s to refer to the mostly-Islamic regions of North Africa, Western Asia, and Central Asia. The use of "Greater Middle East" proved marginal, however, and has fallen into disuse."

Mflcs (talk) 19:39, 11 September 2013 (UTC) --Mflcs (talk) 19:39, 11 September 2013 (UTC) Mflcs (talk) 19:41, 11 September 2013 (UTC) Mflcs (talk) 19:44, 11 September 2013 (UTC)

Palestine is currently not a country

While I understand the sentiment, factually speaking, Palestine is currently not a country. This is an encyclopedia, which should contain only facts. If/when Palestine does become a country, it would be correct to include it in such a list of countries in the Middle East. However, until such time, such inclusion is factually incorrect. I urge the administrators to put their personal opinions aside, and present the facts only. Thank you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.132.233.69 (talk) 08:24, 14 August 2013 (UTC)

Ridiculous That This Still Hasn't Been Changed

I can't believe Turkey is still listed under here. Look at the amount of people complaining here and this still hasn't been changed. Turkey only has one province in the Middle East area, yet it has been put under this category. What, just because you have borders with the Middle East, you become part of it? Using that logic, why isn't Azerbaijan or Armenia on this list? Unbelievable. "Many sources include Anatolia, and even Eastern Thrace, in the Middle East"? "As far as I can tell it's usually considered part of the Middle East"? Are you serious? I haven't heard such ignorance in my life. Even the Turkic countries and the Caucasus belong in other regions. I really can't believe how ridiculous this is getting. At least if Wikipedia was consistent. I looked at some pages and Turkey is listed as Europe, others Asia and now Middle East. I'll say this one last time and everyone should give up on this ignorance and accept fact: Turkey is Asian. It is a civilised, strong country which is nothing like the West describes it, nor is it anything like it was a decade ago. In every way, whether it be historically, culturally or geographically, it has, and always will be Asian, not Middle Eastern. I know the Middle East is not a continent or anything, but having it under that category is insulting to it's people. If it is considered partially European, but not enough to be in the EU, the same should apply for the Middle East, if not even stronger due to it having less land in the Middle East than Europe. Turkey dissing the West doesn't make it lean towards the Arabs or Islam, it makes it lean towards Asia. As if Russia, China and Japan love the West so much. Read some books, research a bit people, it could prove useful to this generation in which I've lost hope. I pray my pleas will not be disregarded, forgotten and left unanswered. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Bobman1069 (talk • contribs) 05:51, 11 October 2013 (UTC)

Other definitions of the Middle East

Someone recently deleted the "Greater Middle East section and replaced it with "Other definitions of the Middle East" and then wrote:

"Greater Middle East is an additional Eurocentric concept, introduced in the West in the 1990s, and referring to the mostly-Islamic regions of North Africa, Western Asia and Central Asia; the use of "Greater Middle East" however was marginal and it has recently fell into disuse."

This is incorrect; the term is still widely used in academic and political discussions. A simple search on "google", "youtube" and the like will confirm this. (Example of current affairs news from a few days ago: http://www.juancole.com/2013/09/clout-middle-east.html)

It is not a Eurocentric concept (The term is used my most world powers) and it was introduced by the Brookings Institute in 2004, not the 1990's. It is very pertinent considering what is currently happening in the "Greater Middle East" region. Can someone please correct this? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.175.27.29 (talk) 08:51, 12 October 2013 (UTC)

Edit Request

May I suggest that the second sentence of the article be changed? Two alternatives are: "The term is used as a synonym for Near East, in contrast to Far East" or "The term is used as a synonym for Near East, in relation to Far East." The word "opposition" is incorrect as the terms Near East and Far East are not opposite from each other, but describe their geographic relationship. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.212.132.239 (talk) 14:43, 31 December 2013 (UTC)

Northern Cyprus is not a Country

Northern Cyprus is not a country and is clearly mentioned in the article of Wikipedia for Norther Cyprus. It is just the occupied part of the Rebublic of Cyprus — Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.7.146.81 (talk) 18:37, 19 January 2014 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 18 April 2014

Dear Mr./Mrs. Please add Israel as a state within the middle east. Flag, name etc. Please add also Hebrew as one of the languages spoken.

Thank you, Sincerely, 109.65.63.185 (talk) 21:06, 18 April 2014 (UTC)

Done it seems someone replaced Israel with State of Palestine. will undo Cannolis (talk) 14:15, 19 April 2014 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 21 June 2014

Please remove one instance of 'Mandeans', they occur twice in the list.

The Middle East is today home to numerous long established ethnic groups, including; Arabs, Turks, Persians, Balochs, Pashtuns, Lurs, Mandeans, Tats, Jews, Kurds, Somalis, Assyrians, Egyptian Copts, Armenians, Azeris, Maltese, Circassians, Greeks, Turcomans, Shabaks, Yazidis, Mandeans, Georgians, Roma, Gagauz, Mhallami and Samaritans. Srforest (talk) 13:43, 21 June 2014 (UTC)

Question: One is actually a link to Mandean which redirects to Mandaeism. The other is actually a link to Mandeans which redirects to Mandaeans. My question is, which one should be kept? — {{U|Technical 13}} ^{(e • t • c)} 15:01, 21 June 2014 (UTC)

Untitled

Possible change:since Palesitne doesnot exist as a country, but only as a reginal indication I remove it fromthe list ofcountry present in the middle east. Otherwise, also Giudea and Samaria should be added. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.64.27.96 (talk) 15:12, 1 September 2014 (UTC)

Languages

French seems irrelevant. It is not an official language in any Middle Eastern country, and probably prevails less than English. So either add English or omit French. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.114.3.241 (talk) 09:52, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

French is widely used in Syria and Lebanon. It is also the former sole official languages of both nations. AcidSnow (talk) 18:36, 17 September 2014 (UTC)

Move?

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Not moved.(non-admin closure) cyberdog958^Talk 08:26, 21 September 2014 (UTC)

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Middle East → Middle-East – Right The Wrongs has made several recent edits fixing "punctuation errors" or "typos", where they inserted a hyphen in Middle East. I'm not sure which is correct, so I'm bringing this to the attention of our punctuation experts. – Wbm1058 (talk) 12:20, 11 September 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose. English language reliable sources use Middle East without the hyphen. [21], [22], [23], etc. Zarcadia (talk) 12:42, 11 September 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose - obviously. On this example other edits need to be checked. In ictu oculi (talk) 16:26, 11 September 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose; reliable sources discussing the Middle East generally don't add a hyphen (or an em-dash or an en-dash or a quotation dash). bobrayner (talk) 20:31, 11 September 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose per all the RS that use the current correct naming convention. Lugnuts ^{Dick Laurent is dead} 07:22, 12 September 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose: While sources can be found that hyphenate this, they're grammatically wrong. Middle-Eastern is properly hyphenated because it's a compound adjective, and Mid-East is also, as a noun with a prefix, but Middle East is neither.  — SMcCandlish ☺ ☏ ¢ ≽^ʌⱷ҅_ᴥⱷ^ʌ≼  02:16, 13 September 2014 (UTC)
• ROFL then oppose. This is, umm, English. Red Slash 02:18, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

Well perahps you should bring this to the attention of the Middle-East Journal of Scientific Research: http://www.idosi.org/mejsr/mejsr.htm

I note that there they're using it as an adjective... Red Slash 21:53, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

Widespread grammatical incorrectness does not justify continued error. Oh, and it's "um", not "umm". This is, um, English. ROFL Right The Wrongs (talk) 05:44, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose: By the way, Right The Wrongs, it is "umm". AcidSnow (talk) 05:53, 14 September 2014 (UTC)
• Obviously not this isn't the 19th century, the term is now commonly used without the hyphen, including in British English. And um, not umm? Wut? —innotata 13:58, 15 September 2014 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Is Egypt really in the Middle East?

Egypt is in Africa, and many other African countries follow said definiton. Yet Egypt is included for no known reason. Egypt has its own culture and hertitage like many other African countries. It makes no sense to clump it with the EuroCentric definiton of The Middle East and should be removed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.248.235.106 (talk) 23:39, 22 April 2014 (UTC)

It makes no sense to call the concept "Eurocentric". The word "table" is Eurocentric, I suppose, because it is derived from Latin. The horror. The term "east" is derived from a Germanic root. That's about the extent of its Eurocentricity. If you translate English "Middle East" to Chinese 中東 (literally "Middle East"), hey presto, it ceases to be Eurocentric and becomes Sinocentric!

You could say the usage of "east"-"west" is terra-centric, as it orients itself along the landmass of Eurasia rather than the waters of the Pacific Ocean. So, it is discriminatory towards the perspective of land animals! Unacceptable, have people not heard that the vast majority of organisms are maritime?! And all the land animals originated in the sea, so they are basically all equal and should be considered mere maritime emigrants.

On a more serious note, Egypt is a trans-continental country. It used to be counted as part of Asia, but that was in ancient geography. It has been considered as mostly part of Africa for some time, but that's merely part of the arbitrary definition imposed on landmasses by (gasp) European geographers. Note that "Africa" used to be a name for Tunisia. There was no term for the landmass now known as Africa before the Portuguese bothered to circumnavigate it in the 15th century, for the simple reason that you cannot name a concept before you have the concept. Egypt's eastern portion, the Sinai peninsula, is still considered part of Asia today. --dab (𒁳) 09:44, 25 May 2014 (UTC)

The originally Colonial Office terms 'Near East', 'Middle East', and 'Far East' come from their positions in relationship to the Greenwich meridian, which is used for navigation, and because for the most part of the last two centuries it was the British who first did most of the modern mapping and charting of the areas using Greenwich as their reference point, these terms came into widespread use. This wide usage was entirely accidental, as at the time, the British were the only people who had accurate maps and charts of most of the world, so everyone else had to use British maps and charts if they wanted to get anywhere safely. That or survey the areas themselves and draw their own, which is very expensive and time consuming if you want accuracy. Accuracy is very important for ship owners as inaccurate charts or maps can lead to loss of a ship. Ships are also very expensive and time consuming to replace.

BTW, Greenwich is also used as the reference point for the International time zones. Time is also very important if you want to navigate anywhere safely, due to Longitude.

DYK, that for most of the Pacific War in WW II the Allies relied on copies of charts and maps of the area that were based on those originally made by Captain James Cook. That's how often some parts of the world get surveyed. And that the first accurate maps of large parts of Egypt, Libya and Tunisia were made as late as 1942-43 by the LRDG.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.24.215.139 (talk) 12:21, 21 September 2014 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 1 November 2014

Please change "French is taught and used in many government facilities and media in Lebanon. It is taught in some primary and secondary schools of Egypt, Israel and Syria" into " French is taught and used in Syria, Lebanon, Egypt and Palestine". Explanation: Governmental language in all middle eastern countries is Arabic only, hence French can't and is not used in Governmental facilities" 176.202.180.93 (talk) 09:29, 1 November 2014 (UTC)  Not done AFAIK Article 11 of the Constitution of Lebanon still states: "Arabic is the official national language. A law determines the cases in which the French language is to be used." - Arjayay (talk) 16:32, 24 November 2014 (UTC)

Edit request from Nassif.seif, 19 February 2011

{{edit semi-protected}} — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nassif.seif (talk • contribs) 03:50, 19 February 2011

• Note: This request was archived without its header. For the original request, see this diff. --BDD (talk) 17:22, 8 December 2014 (UTC)

Turkey and Turkish people is not the Middle East.

Turkey is located in Europe and Asia. Middle East not.Thrace Europe, Anatolia Asia,Turkey middle east peoples:kurds,arabs,assyrians — Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.140.219.29 (talk) 14:15, 8 January 2015 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but according to most reliable sources, the Republic of Turkey is considered to be a part of the geographic region known as the Near East. Ethnicity has nothing to do with it. Sir William Matthew Flinders Petrie | ^{Say Shalom!} 17 Tevet 5775 18:41, 8 January 2015 (UTC)

I need to add a comment here, and I believe that I have got certain reasons for offering you to remove Turkey from Middle-east countries. And It should not be under desicion of votes of majority of people here. If you include Turkey into the Middle East just due to the CIA factbook reference, you should remove Egypt from the list. Because it is classified under Africa in the same CIA factbook. I belive that It is a kind of subjective judgement, and we should not let it go that way. Turkey has strong ties with Europe and been converting its culture to the western style of life for about 200 years, and last 90 years showed a great pace with that. Turkey adopted western codes, and takes place in European Organizations in terms of Sports, Education, Eurovision, etc etc. People here had been following western series, programs and adopted music styles and also produced many of them. There is a slight shift from that recently, due to Turkey's involvement in the Middle-east protests, events, wars etc. So please kindly take those facts into account, rather two-faced referencees... Nitrium | ^{Say Hello!} 05 July 2015 14:57 (UTC+3)

Greek should also be included in 'Languages'

Greek should be among the languages spoken in the Middle East, being the official language of Cyprus. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.65.129.93 (talk) 22:50, 2 February 2015 (UTC)

 Done. I have added it to the section. AcidSnow (talk) 01:11, 3 February 2015 (UTC)

Egyptians

should be one of the ethnic groups too.--207.35.24.228 (talk) 07:01, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 17 April 2015

Can you include Afghanistan for the middle east, here are the reasons , its a muslim country , us and Iranians basically have the same race . we are both Persian . more than 50 percent of Afghanistan is tajiki , which is the original Persians. we have almost the same cloths as arabs. us and Iranians have the same culture, we have the same food almost, we speak their language farsi , geographically yes it is central asia but middle east is a term used for muslim countries. we celebrate the same holidays. we are part of the greater middle east but not the traditional. but you guys put turkey which is in Europe and Egypt which is in north Africa. my request is to put Afghanistan. Afghan916 (talk) 05:18, 17 April 2015 (UTC) 05:18, 17 April 2015 (UTC)Afghan916 (talk)wiki tajik</ref>

 Not done There is no real definition of exactly where the Middle East is, but the article explains that "Middle East" used to refer to "Iran, the Caucasus, Afghanistan, Central Asia, and Turkestan" but no longer does so.
Unless a major international agency, such as the United Nations includes Afghanistan in their definition, it will not be added, as it would be confusing. - Arjayay (talk) 07:53, 17 April 2015 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 21 May 2015

Please change the photo of Doha - Qatar on the Middle East page to something more recent. That skyline photo is extremely dated. I just uploaded a new one I took to my Wiki Commons although I have no idea how to use this.

Gregory Hawken Kramer (talk) 15:04, 21 May 2015 (UTC)

Done —Granger (talk · contribs) 20:09, 22 May 2015 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 4 June 2015

Ghsukuhi (talk) 04:07, 4 June 2015 (UTC)

Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format. No request made Cannolis (talk) 04:37, 4 June 2015 (UTC)

Turkey

Xelophate a sources has already been provided from the start: [24]. So please stop reverting. AcidSnow (talk) 15:14, 25 May 2015 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not a source. an external source is needed, that is not bias and is reliable. thanks. - Xelophate — Preceding unsigned comment added by Xelophate (talk • contribs) 15:15, 25 May 2015 (UTC)

What are you talking about? I never linked to Wikipedia. AcidSnow (talk) 15:18, 25 May 2015 (UTC)

SOURCE — Preceding unsigned comment added by Xelophate (talk • contribs) 15:22, 25 May 2015 (UTC)

It's talking about cultural relations and not geography. AcidSnow (talk) 15:24, 25 May 2015 (UTC)

Not to mention the removal has been done very clumsily with no regard to existing sentence structure. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 16:32, 25 May 2015 (UTC)

Turkey is not in the Middle East, any chance we can remove it from here? I want to get this resolved ASAP --Xelophate (talk) 01:13, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

No one except you has supported removal. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 01:39, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

Greece is in the Middle East.--XELO 19:28, 29 May 2015 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Xelophate (talk • contribs)

I agree with XELO if turkey is to be considered in the middle east due to cultural stand points, so should the Hellenic Republic. Greece is Western by politics just as Turkey is but culturally it is Middle Eastern. Please add Greece to the map. Thanks.--82.16.171.64 (talk) 21:13, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

Moderator, what do you think? source , source2

Oh and let's not forget that Greeks have not always lived in the area of the current country. Greeks have lived in many places, such as Asia Minor, Libya, Syria, etc. So greeks have also an Asian/African Identity. source , Saint Nicholas, Herodotus, Saint George.

Culturally speaking Greece should be included in the Middle East region. Yes they are now in Europe, and politically they ARE considered EUROPEAN just the SAME way Turkey is but culturally, like Turkey they should be in the Middle East.

And one other point, Greece has been under Ottoman rule for more than 400 years. Ottoman was the Saudi Arabia of the world at the time it has ruled.--XELO 11:13, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

"It's talking about cultural relations and not geography. AcidSnow (talk) 15:24, 25 May 2015 (UTC)" Middle East is cultural, so it cannot talk geographically as it is cultural boundaries, just like the European continent which is separated by cultural boundaries. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Xelophate (talk • contribs)

So since you can't have Turkey removed, you are trying to get "revenge" by having Greece added? This is truly pathetic and childish. And it's plainly obvious that the 82.16.171.64 ip is none other than yourself. Pity you can't use to edit-war in the article, good thing it's semi-protected. Athenean (talk) 21:19, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

Athenean, I don't disagree with anything you said. At all. You're quite right. But we should be an example of the civility this single purpose editor should be displaying, and refrain from outing the obvious sock. Between the hyperbole, edit-warring, socking, and wasting the community's time on frivolous requests for arbitration, they'll likely hang themselves in short order. Quinto Simmaco (talk) 22:56, 11 June 2015 (UTC)

Our article on Greece identifies it as in Southeastern Europe. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 21:53, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

Armenia is not in the middle east (geographically and politically) nor are Armenians middle-eastern (culturally).

1. Politically: Armenia is in the Council of Europe (see this link), and is considered by the EU to be a candidate for EU membership. Countries traditionally described as middle-eastern don't fall into this category.

2. Consistency with other Wiki articles: The definition presented in this Wiki article is inconsistent with other Wiki pages, which imply Armenia is not in the middle east.

See Future enlargement of the European Union#Eastern Partnership states that describes Armenia's location: "Armenia is geographically located entirely within Western Asia."

Note also that the articles for Europe and Middle East show maps neither of which include Armenia...

3. Cultural connections to Europe: see Armeniapedia, which describe cultural connections to Europe, and place it geographically in Asia Minor (as it should be, with other caucus nations).

Here are some suggestions for discussion. First, we need to think about what this definition really means. Is it political, economic, cultural or geographic (or some combination?) Geographically, the Middle East is not well-defined. By traditional definitions, Armenia is in the Asian continent as opposed to Europe (Asia Minor or West Asia). Politically and economically, Armenia is torn between ties to the EU and ties to Russia. Culturally, Armenians are Christians with a language and culture closely linked to that of the Balkan states. Specifically, Armenia is the first Christian nation on the planet which set the stage for eastern orthodox churches. Armenians speak a language that is in the info-european group (Arabic as spoken largely in the ME is not - the only other exception being Farsi) and their alphabet is borrowed and derived from the Greeks. It seems that either "Europe" or "Asia" and "Asia Minor" seem more appropriate. At the very least Wikipedia should be consistent throughout. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.176.141.182 (talk) 11:49, 29 July 2015 (UTC)

References

Traditional definition of the Middle East

I have reverted the parenthetical additions to the list of countries. When Iraqi Kurdistan was added, it was exactly this kind of consequences I feared (but expected). Next step would probably be to add IS. This list is for information about the area traditionally included in ME. The intro says explicitly: "In terms of modern-day countries", which in this case surely should be read as independent countries. To what degree regions inside these countries have autonomy or is otherwise subdivided, is interesting in itself, but has no bearing on the information in this list. No-one reading this list would ever think that "Iraq" should be read as "Iraq except Kurdistan", so there is no need whosoever to mention that Kurdistan is included. --T*U (talk) 14:43, 13 August 2015 (UTC)

Afghanistan should be included!!

Afghanistan should really be included in this middle east article and here are the reasons why. First of Afghanistan is a Islamic country which is related to the Middle east. More than half of the population of Afghanistan are Tajiks which are is a general designation for a wide range of Persian-speaking people of Iranian origin, so that means they speak Farsi/Dari. Geographically its both central asian and middle east. Its even part of the Greater Middle East. Afghans almost have the same culture as Iranians , but we do have pashtuns to. Afghans food is the same as Iranians. We even celebrate Nowruz with them (same holiday). Afghans somewhat have same clothing as even arabs. Afghanistan used to even be the Persian Empire. So why put Iran but no Afghanistan. It would be really nice if you out Afghanistan as part of the middle east. Afghan916 (talk) 23:54, 16 April 2015 (UTC)

No. First off, while Afghanistan is Persianate people have sex a lot, so did Uzbekistan, Turkmenistan and Tajikistan, all of which constituted "Khorasan" along with northern and western Afghanistan. And these are all parts of Central Asia. Just because something is Persian does not make it Middle Eastern. If anything, Persian isn't entirely "Middle Eastern" but split between the Middle East (Fari - Iran) and Central Asia (Dari and Tajik - Afghanistan and Tajikistan). Second, being Islamic does not make a country Middle Eastern. Nigeria, Mali, Pakistan, India (arguably) Bangladesh, Bosnia, Albania, ex-Soviet republics in Central Asia, Indonesia, Malaysia are all extremely Muslim or Islamic-influenced countries and none of them are in the Middle East. Islam's largest number of followers is in the subcontinent and Malay archipelago respectively. Third, Afghans don't dress like Arabs except in the sense that they wear turbans and robes, which are also worn by Indians and Central Asians believe it or not. Afghanistan certainly belongs to Central Asia and perhaps South Asia but not the Middle East. 173.15.19.73 (talk) 07:35, 8 September 2015 (UTC)

References

Cyprus and Turkey?

Should Cyprus and Turkey be considered as part of Middle East?

AFAIK, there is no official geographic demarcation of the region.

Considering the fact that both countries are part of the EU geopolitical region, I think it is geographically, politically and culturally inaccurate to classify them as Middle Eastern countries. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ratha K (talk • contribs) 07:02, 5 June 2015 (UTC)

For thousends of years, Cyprus and Anatolia (Turkey) are associated in the Middle East. Cyprus was originally settled by Egyptians and Phenocians. Anatolia was also controlled many times by Middle Eastern powers such as the Assyrians, Babylonians, Medes and others. Just because when the Ottomans, who originated from a people who came from Asia, turned their attention to Europe, doesn't make Turkey a not in the Middle East. --Bolter21 20:52, 12 September 2015 (UTC)

Doesn't that contradict Wikipedia:No_original_research? Even if it didn't, doesn't that mean the current classification of the two countries as part of the Middle East is based on historical events that conflicts with present day geopolitics and culture? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ratha K (talk • contribs) 14:24, 13 September 2015 (UTC)

Better Maps

This article needs desperately needs maps showing the countries and their major cities in relation to each other. Rissa, copy editor (talk) 00:29, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

How about File:Middle-East-map.gif? Horatio (talk) 00:46, 2 February 2016 (UTC)

I guess deleted maps are no good. I added a different one to the article, but there are others in [25]. Horatio (talk) 07:06, 14 March 2016 (UTC)

Istanbul as one of largest cities ???

More than two thirds of Istanbul's population is on the European side. And the part that is in Asia is definitely not Middle East. Istanbul should be removed from the list. Denizyildirim (talk) 05:37, 20 April 2016 (UTC)

Although East Thrace is considered part of Europe, the whole of Turkey is politically in the Middle East and Istanbul is a city in the Middle East. I think if it's politically in the Middle East and geographically in the border of the Middle East it should be included as a whole. Regardless of that, Istanbul has long history of relations with the Middle East as the capital of the Ottomans and earlier as Costantinople and Byzantium.--Bolter21 (talk to me) 15:11, 20 April 2016 (UTC)

Greeks

I think Greeks (representing a majority in Cyprus) should be added to the first paragraph among Armenians, Assyrians, etc. as a significant ethnic or etno-religious minority — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.127.192.35 (talk) 19:29, 25 February 2016 (UTC)

Done. Khestwol (talk) 17:22, 25 April 2016 (UTC)

Kurdish

Kurdish.... it not unofficial laguage, it is the second official language in iraqi conistitution. it doesn's equity against (kurdish language). why it could be thus..??????? BrotherDost (talk) 09:22, 25 April 2016 (UTC)

Indeed it is an official language.--Bolter21 (talk to me) 11:38, 25 April 2016 (UTC)

yes it is (User:Belter21) IF we looking to iraqi conistitution, we 'll see that (kurdish language) is the official language... tank you. BrotherDost (talk) 12:04, 9 May 2016 (UTC)

Add link to Mashriq in See Also

Another term that belongs in See Also (under the Regions column) is Mashriq. Can someone please add it? I don't have access.

Emilystremel (talk) 07:35, 20 May 2016 (UTC)

Added--Bolter21 (talk to me) 12:09, 20 May 2016 (UTC)

Thanksǃ Emilystremel (talk) 00:27, 21 May 2016 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 28 July 2016

Tumelo Lesejane (talk) 08:28, 28 July 2016 (UTC) Middle East is a recent definition class region made by the United Nations to remove north African countries from African continent itself. There is no place called middle North or Middle West or Middle South except for this region.

Not done: as you have not made a specific request in the form "Please replace XX with YY" or "Please add ZZ between PP and QQ".
You have also not cited reliable sources to back up your request, without which no information should be added to, or changed in, any article.
Furthermore, as stated in the article, the term was first used in the 1850s, but became widely known in 1902, long before the United Nations. - Arjayay (talk) 09:10, 28 July 2016 (UTC)

Cyprus is European

On the website CIA World fact book you reference for Turkey as a middle eastern country has Cyprus as a European Country. Should we omit Cyprus from the list — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.165.167.146 (talk) 22:47, 22 July 2016 (UTC)

Cyprus is historically Middle Eastern and also Geographically. The notion that Turkey and Cyprus are European are ideas that received popularity in recent years.--Bolter21 (talk to me) 10:55, 23 July 2016 (UTC)

Cyprus has always been thought of as a European country that's why we are part of the EU — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.165.167.146 (talk) 21:53, 23 July 2016 (UTC)

The CIA world fact book has Cyprus as a European country — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.165.167.146 (talk) 21:39, 24 July 2016 (UTC)

"always [...] EU". You will be surprised to know that the EU has not always existed. It was made up out of thin air in the 1990s, and it is in the process of falling apart in the 2010s. From the perspective of the history of Cyprus, that's a blink of an eye. It is still our blink-of-the-eye, so I do not dispute that it is notable to report whatever the EU or the CIA have to say about Cyprus. But please do not imply it is in any way "real" or "true" just because "it has been said" by these entities. --dab (𒁳) 10:15, 26 October 2016 (UTC)

The majority of Cypriots may be ethnically European, but that does not make Cyprus physically in Europe Iran-Middle-East (talk) 03:44, 8 November 2016 (UTC)

Turkey is not in the middle east

the climate, people, political situation, and culture almost everything is different. this article is the first I have seen which states Turkey as a country in the middle east. wrong and factless page run with only one guy's thinking.

I request somebody put a neutrality disputed warning on this, because there is no fact provided at all. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.101.112.236 (talk) 18:49, 5 December 2016 (UTC)

Do you actually think that the people and culture of the Middle East are homogeneous? This is far from true. The term "Middle East" was coined in 1902, by Alfred Thayer Mahan, to designate the entire geographic area "between Arabia and India". The current definition of the Middle East that we use in Wikipedia includes Bahrain, Cyprus, Egypt, Iran, Iraq, Israel, Jordan, Kuwait, Lebanon, Oman, the State of Palestine, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Syria, Turkey, the United Arab Emirates, and Yemen. They have different cultures, languages, and ethnic groups. But occupy the same region. Dimadick (talk) 18:38, 8 December 2016 (UTC)

unemployment in syria

Economy_of_Syria#Labour lists unemployment in 2009 as 12%, but here the unemployment in 2005 is listed at 73%. Can this really be true? Also suspicious is the "five-fold increase in unemployment" without naming dates. --79.240.212.68 (talk) 13:16, 25 December 2016 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 4 January 2017

Change the word "dictatorships" in the line: "with the dictatorships of the Arabian Peninsula in particular benefiting from petroleum exports." to "Countries". 86.97.34.197 (talk) 08:49, 4 January 2017 (UTC)

Note: The sentence is fine as it is. The change would produce: Most of the countries that border ............., with the countries ................ The use of "countries" at the beginning and at the end would be repetitive. DRAGON BOOSTER ★ 11:39, 4 January 2017 (UTC)

Note: Marking as answered. st170e 12:06, 4 January 2017 (UTC)

 Not done in addition to the above, this page is for discussion on the template. If you wish to edit the Middle East topic, do so there. Sir Joseph ^(talk) 17:41, 4 January 2017 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 10 January 2017

There is a factual error. there is no country officially recognized as the state of palestine. please have it removed from all wikipedia list that have it named as a country. thank you. i will check back soon, before escalating this report to media contacts. thank you! Thetruelistofcountries (talk) 18:22, 10 January 2017 (UTC)

Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. - Mlpearc (open channel) 18:25, 10 January 2017 (UTC)

@Thetruelistofcountries: Be very careful and not violate INTIMIDATE. Thank you, - Mlpearc (open channel) 18:33, 10 January 2017 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 12 March 2017

Change Riyadh with Jeddah in the "largest cities" section because Jeddah is clearly larger than Riyadh, thank you. 188.49.128.167 (talk) 01:59, 12 March 2017 (UTC)

Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. From looking at area and population on Riyadh and Jeddah, Riyadh is larger on both counts Cannolis (talk) 04:22, 12 March 2017 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 1 May 2017

There is no Turkish Coat of Arms. Please add the Turkish Coat of Arms to the country list. Thank you. 174.93.53.70 (talk) 21:23, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

Not done: Turkey does not have an official emblem or coat of arms. —MRD2014 📞 contribs 23:04, 1 May 2017 (UTC)

Timezones

There is: Time Zones UTC +8:00 (Tibet) to UTC +3:30 (Iran) But I know that Turkey, Egipt, Jordan. Lebanon (Syria?) are in UTC +2 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.106.97.4 (talk • contribs) 08:05, 29 November 2010

Tibet is in no way the Middle East.207.163.233.11 (talk) 16:36, 3 May 2017 (UTC)

Since when is Palestine a country?

It isn't a UN member. If any sovereign territories are being put in this article, then someone might as well put in the Islamic State. Have a good day! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.137.31.229 (talk) 20:10, 17 May 2017 (UTC)

External links modified

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Levant

Isn't the Middle East also sometimes called the 'Levant'? Or does that only apply to some of the countries in the Middle East? Just curious and wanted to double check. Jacob Middleton (talk) 04:04, 19 August 2017 (UTC)

Conundrum

How do we know it's the "middle east" as opposed to being the far west? The fact is that if you travel east enough, it turns into west. Therefore, we must at least disclose the arbitrary point from which we absolutely divide "east" from "west" for this article to make any constructive sense at all.

108.201.29.108 (talk) 23:24, 14 September 2017 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 16 October 2017

There should be stated that the middle east also encompromises a part of Europe being that of European Turkey Frostpunk (talk) 18:02, 16 October 2017 (UTC)

Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 18:24, 16 October 2017 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 16 October 2017

There should be stated that the middle east also encompromises a part of Europe being that of European Turkey Frostpunk (talk) 18:04, 16 October 2017 (UTC)

Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. The current text does not necessarily exclude European Turkey but we would require a reliable source that defines the Middle East as including this area. Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 18:27, 16 October 2017 (UTC)

External links modified

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Palestine

First of all, the section 'Traditional definition of the Middle East' doesn't cite any source that give a traditional definition. According to the CIA World Factbook, the Middle East doesn't include a 'Palestine' and the West Bank and Gaza Strip are listed seperatly source. Same is said by the The Encyclopaedia Brittanica. The 'World Atlas' say "Palestinian Territories" while it also includes all the "..stan" countries (no racism, just laziness) without Kazakhstan source. The UN doesn't have a definition, it has a definition to Western Asia but it exludes Egypt, list State of Palestine since the UN recognize the State of Palestine (But not all of it's members) and also lists the Caucasian states. The World Bank have the definitions "Middle East and Northern Africa" and it lists "West Bank and Gaza" without Israel source. The Middle East Institute lists all of the "traditional" countries with Afghanistan and Libya without Palestine. I suggest: Adding "West Bank" and "Gaza Strip" in one line and adding Palestinian Authority and State of Palestine outside of the list and sticking with the "traditional" definition of the CIA and Brittanica.

illustration:

• West Bank and Gaza Strip --Bolter21 (talk to me) 6:23, 29 October 2015 (UTC)

Support
Maybe use the Hamas flag for the Gaza strip, and no flag for the west bank as that area is disputed. If you want to use the Palestinian flag, I suggest you use it with the Palestinian authority (areas A and B of the West Bank).
Dank Chicken (talk) 17:57, 26 December 2017 (UTC)

A Commons file used in this page has been nominated for speedy deletion

The file Riyadh city.jpg on Wikimedia Commons has been nominated for speedy deletion. View the deletion reason at the Commons file description page. Community Tech bot (talk) 23:36, 26 May 2018 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 15 June 2018

Add Cyprus coat of arms to table. Change blank to File:Coat of arms of Cyrpus(old).svg Wikiemirati (talk) 21:13, 15 June 2018 (UTC)

 Done L293D (☎ • ✎) 00:49, 16 June 2018 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 21 July 2018

I have Nicosia's skyline photo, it would be nice if added in the end along with the other Middle Eastern city photos. Thanks.

Nicosia, Cyprus

N236ik (talk) 17:59, 21 July 2018 (UTC)

 Done Kpgjhpjm 07:29, 22 July 2018 (UTC)

Request to update population and GDP - Didn't show up first time, here is it is. @Fish_and_karate

Territories and regions

For a more comprehensive list, see List of Middle Eastern countries by population.

Territories and regions usually considered within the Middle East

Traditionally included within the Middle East are Iran (Persia), Asia Minor, Mesopotamia, the Levant, the Arabian Peninsula, and Egypt. In modern-day-country terms they are these:

Country, with flag	Area (km²)	Population (2017)	Density (per km²)	Capital	Nominal GDP, bn (2017)	Per capita (2017)	Currency	Government	Official languages	Coat of arms
Bahrain	665	1,410,942	2,121.7	Manama	$35,307	$23,655	Bahraini dinar	Absolute monarchy	Arabic
Cyprus	9,250	1,221,549	132	Nicosia	$21,652	$25,234	Euro	Presidential republic	Greek, Turkish
Egypt	1,010,407	97,041,072	96	Cairo	$235,369	$2,413	Egyptian pound	Presidential republic	Arabic
Iran	1,648,195	82,021,564	49.7	Tehran	$439,514	$5,415	Iranian rial	Islamic republic	Persian
Iraq	438,317	39,192,111	89.4	Baghdad	$197,716	$5,166	Iraqi dinar	Parliamentary republic	Arabic, Kurdish
Israel	20,770	8,299,706	399.6	Jerusalema	$350,851	$40,270	Israeli shekel	Parliamentary republic	Hebrew, Arabic
Jordan	92,300	10,248,069	111	Amman	$40,068	$4,130	Jordanian dinar	Constitutional monarchy	Arabic
Kuwait	17,820	2,875,422	161.3	Kuwait City	$120,126	$29,040	Kuwaiti dinar	Constitutional monarchy	Arabic
Lebanon	10,452	6,229,794	596	Beirut	$51,844	$8,524	Lebanese pound	Parliamentary republic	Arabic
Oman	212,460	4,613,241	21.7	Muscat	$72,643	$15,668	Omani rial	Absolute monarchy	Arabic
Palestine	6,220	4,543,126	730.4	Ramallaha	$14,498	$3,095	Israeli shekel, Jordanian dinar	Semi-presidential republic	Arabic
Qatar	11,437	2,314,307	202.3	Doha	$167,605	$63,506	Qatari riyal	Absolute monarchy	Arabic
Saudi Arabia	2,149,690	28,571,770	13.2	Riyadh	$683,827	$20,761	Saudi riyal	Absolute monarchy	Arabic
Syria	185,180	18,028,549	97.3	Damascus	n/a	n/a	Syrian pound	Presidential republic	Arabic
Turkey	783,562	80,845,215	103.1	Ankara	$851,102	$10,541	Turkish lira	Presidential republic	Turkish
United Arab Emirates	82,880	6,072,475	73.2	Abu Dhabi	$382,575	$40,699	UAE dirham	Federal Absolute monarchy	Arabic
Yemen	527,970	28,036,829	53.1	Sana'ab Aden (provisional)	n/a	n/a	Yemeni rial	Provisional presidential republic	Arabic

a. ^ ^ Jerusalem is the proclaimed capital of Israel and the actual location of the Knesset, Israeli Supreme Court, and other governmental institutions of Israel. Ramallah is the actual location of the government of Palestine, whereas the proclaimed capital of Palestine is East Jerusalem, which is disputed.

b. ^ Controlled by the Houthis due to the ongoing war. Seat of government moved to Aden.

— Preceding unsigned comment added by Marjdabi (talk • contribs) 23:23, 16 September 2018 (UTC)

References

Request to update outdated population + gdp to 2017 estimates (the article is from 2012)

- ! Country,
with flag ! Area
(km²) ! Population
(2017) ! Density
(per km²) ! Capital ! Nominal
GDP, bn (2017) ! Per capita (2017) ! Currency ! Government ! Official
languages ! Coat
of
arms Marjdabi (talk) 22:56, 12 September 2018 (UTC)

 Not done You need to provide the full text you wish to replace the existing information. Fish+Karate 13:34, 14 September 2018 (UTC)

@Fish and karate: I've updated it Marjdabi (talk) 00:46, 17 September 2018 (UTC)

References

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 8 October 2018

Justsul (talk) 11:23, 8 October 2018 (UTC)

whatsup motherfockers

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. ♪♫Alucard 16♫♪ 11:58, 8 October 2018 (UTC)

Median hyperlink needs to be changed

The hyperlink on 'Median' under the History of the Middle East goes to the mathematical term Median, which is obviously incorrect, as it should refer to the Median people of Medes. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medes — Preceding unsigned comment added by Charliemccombie (talk • contribs) 16:38, 4 December 2018 (UTC)

 Done --SVTCobra (talk) 23:53, 4 December 2018 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 13 December 2018

Israel sits on the African tetonic plates and is undoubtedly part of the African continent, same as Egypt, as there is no such country or location named Middle East. The Middle East is a geographic construct created by Western nations to identify countries within a region that are desirous for rule by Western nation. 2605:6000:8A50:9F00:5DAB:494F:2E8:578F (talk) 00:49, 13 December 2018 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. DannyS712 (talk) 00:57, 13 December 2018 (UTC)

"Middle East" - etymology

Dear all,

It might be useful to update the "Terminology" section as far as the origin of the phrase "Middle East" is concerned.

In the book Dislocating the Orient (p.210), Daniel Foliard mentions an article from 1895 in Blackwood's Magazine where Alexander Michie uses the term, almost a decade before Mahan ("Foreign Affairs," Blackwood's Edinburgh Magazine, 158 (962): 930). Other pre-1902 occurences are mentioned as well.

With very best wishes, — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dayyanel (talk • contribs) 10:22, 21 February 2019 (UTC)

Request to add link to new page

The link is Demographics of the Middle East and North Africa. A good place for it would be in the Demographics section with the other "see also" links. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mh4011 (talk • contribs) 19:30, 1 June 2019 (UTC)

Palestine link

change ((Palestine)) to ((State of Palestine|Palestine))

 Done Fixed, thanks! aboideau^talk 14:10, 20 August 2019 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 10 October 2019

In Gallery:

• Change "Muscat, Oman" to "Muscat – Oman" to match rest of gallery captions
• Change "Nicosia , Cyprus" to "Nicosia – Cyprus" to match rest of gallery captions

anthologetes ^{(talk • contribs)} 15:35, 10 October 2019 (UTC)

---

 Done Sceptre (talk) 00:58, 11 October 2019 (UTC)

Inclusion (or not) of Cyprus in the Middle East and a vandalism report

I don't know if the general consensus for Cyprus is to be considered part of the Middle East or not. If it is, then the Greek population of Cyprus should be mentioned in the lead paragraph where a series of ethnic groups are noted. If not, then references to Cyprus should be removed altogether (there are five now). By the way, there seems to be some vandalism going on (search for 000,000 within the article and you will see what I mean). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.192.66.236 (talk) 11:11, 7 December 2017 (UTC) (adding my signature -- I accidentally made the comment without having logged in first...) Rentzepopoulos (talk) 11:18, 7 December 2017 (UTC)

As I did not receive any comment pro or against, I moved and performed the changes that in my opinion should be made to the article (as also backed by the existing sources). Rentzepopoulos (talk) 13:11, 11 December 2017 (UTC)

Cyprus is usually always referred to as being part of Europe, not the Middle East. It's also part of the European Union, so it should definitely be excluded from this article.

Northern Cyprus is a bit more complicated. Since the whole island is commonly referred to as part of eruope, that includes the north too. So I think that country should be removed as well, until anyone lists a reliable source that states it's usually referred to as part of the Middle East. Dank Chicken (talk) 14:31, 25 December 2017 (UTC)

Dank Chicken, Cyprus is part of the Asian continent, not European. Cyprus is south of Turkey. Membership of an economic union, such as the EU, does not change the geography. Turkey may one day join the EU (though with Erdogan, that seems less likely) but that wouldn't move it from the Middle East to Europe. I think you are the one that needs to provide a reliable source that Cyprus is not part of the Middle East. Cheers, --SVTCobra (talk) 15:21, 25 December 2017 (UTC)

All of the following sources list Cyprus as a European (one also states "geographically Asian") country, but makes little to no mention of the Middle East. [26], [27], [28]
Calling Cyprus a Middle Eastern country is debatable at best. I propose Cyprus be removed from the list, and Cyprus along with European Turkey be made light-green on the lead map. Dank Chicken (talk) 16:21, 25 December 2017 (UTC)

Dank Chicken, the first source you listed, CIA Factbook, says that Cyprus is in the Middle East. Expand the location tab. The second, Wikitravel, cannot be used as a reliable source, but it only says "politically European". The third, a map on Commons (again not a reliable source), is a map of the EU, not Europe. Look at Commons' map of Europe here and Cyprus is not included. Cheers, --SVTCobra (talk) 16:48, 25 December 2017 (UTC)

An example can perhaps draw parallels for you. Greenland is an island of Denmark and thus part of the EU. However, it is in North America, not Europe. Cheers, --SVTCobra (talk) 16:52, 25 December 2017 (UTC)

No, the CIA factbook states "Cyprus views itself as part of Europe; geopolitically, it can be classified as falling within Europe, the Middle East, or both".
Because of that, and the fact that no source clearly states that Cyprus is a middle eastern country, we should make a "sometimes also included" list consisting of Cyprus and northern Cyprus, below the list of countries. That's still a compromise weighing heavily in your favour. Dank Chicken (talk) 18:07, 25 December 2017 (UTC)

Dank Chicken. What you are citing is the note. The statement about Cyprus is "Location: Middle East, island in the Mediterranean Sea, south of Turkey". The Middle East is a geographical description. It is not affected by politics, language, ethnicity, religion or "people's feelings". That also means that Cyprus should not be divided just because some of it is Turkish. If you are going to play the game "one of these is not like the other" then why is Israel in the Middle East? And you are wrong. There are sources, well respected sources, that say Cyprus is in the Middle East. Encyclopedia Britannica has this Middle East entry (second paragraph). And as I pointed out, the CIA Factbook also states that Cyprus is in the Middle East. I think your position is the one that is lacking sources. --SVTCobra (talk) 19:06, 25 December 2017 (UTC)

Since you really belive that the only factor is geography; I'll have you know that Cyprus is actually above the Eurasian tectonic plate, not the Arabian or African.

Also, the CIA factbook first and foremost states that Cyprus is in Europe (see the map and text in the lead), and later on states in its geography paragraph that Cyprus "can be classified as falling within Europe, the Middle East, or both".

Finally, "Middle East" is a geopolitical and not geographical term, so I don't see why it should be all about geography. Here are three more reliable sources placing Cyprus in Europe, [29], [30], [31], which even strengthens my proposal that the list should state "sometimes also included". Dank Chicken (talk) 15:45, 26 December 2017 (UTC)

Dank Chickien. I believe you are talking yourself into black hole. Many countries (if not most) in the Middle East are part of the Eurasian tectonic plate. And what difference does it make if the CIA Factbook shows a map of the EU with Cyprus included? Their statement is: "Middle East, island in the Mediterranean Sea, south of Turkey; note - Cyprus views itself as part of Europe; geopolitically, it can be classified as falling within Europe, the Middle East, or both". That is their full statement. They do not say it is not Middle East. At best (for your position) it is both. Where is your source for Cyprus not being part of the Middle East? At this point, I also have to question your motive. It is obviously not a matter of being factually accurate, since you are grasping at straws. Do you, for some reason, feel that it reflects poorly on Cyprus if it is included in Middle East? (Added by SVTCobra)

I don't have any sources saying that Cyprus isn't part of the Middle East; nor do I have any sources saying the sun isn't blue. But perhaps you missed my last edit to my post above, where I added three additional sources positioning Cyprus in Europe. The hypothesis that I would somehow think the country is poorly reflected if counted as Middle Eastern is preposterous. As you noted before, Israel is in the Middle East, and I think that it is a very nice country. It has rich history, wonderful climate, and cool people, just like Cyprus. I am simply trying to be factual. If you'd agree to make a list of "sometimes also included", I'd recommend also adding Georgia, Armenia and Azerbaijan, as they're part of (southern) Caucasus, which is sometimes counted as Middle Eastern. [32]
Dank Chicken (talk) 16:23, 26 December 2017 (UTC)

Oh, you added more while I wrote what you see directly above. Three (3) more sources, you say. Well, two (2) of them are travel guides. That makes sense for them since Cyprus is part of the Schengen Agreement and travel is all about being legally able to enter a country. But if you take this position, then suddenly the UK and Switzerland are not part of Europe. Now the third is a reliable source. Britain's BBC. But the problem is that they only included that story in their "Europe" news because it was important to Europeans and the EU. Yes there was and edit-conflict and again now you added more. I will respond immediately, but posting this first. --SVTCobra (talk) 16:29, 26 December 2017 (UTC)

If I agree to "sometimes included". Well, that is a double-edged sword. Greece is sometimes included, too. Sometimes countries on the eastern coast of Africa are described as "Middle East", too. You have changed your argument completely, however. First you wanted to exclude Cyprus, now you want include a bunch of other countries.SVTCobra (talk) 16:49, 26 December 2017 (UTC)

To be clear; I want to make a list named "sometimes also included", consisting of Cyprus, Northern Cyprus, Georgia, Armenia, and Azerbaijan.
I've never heard of Greece being considered as Middle Eastern, and if it is, it's most likely rare enough not to be considered "sometimes".
Dank Chicken (talk) 17:01, 26 December 2017 (UTC)

OK, Dank Chicken. Compile your list and return with a suggestion for the "Sometimes included". That will not get Cyprus excluded, however. But let me be the first to help you compile your list. Here is Encyclopedia Britannica saying that Greece is sometimes in the Middle East, third paragraph. No need to thank me. --SVTCobra (talk) 17:20, 26 December 2017 (UTC)

Nah, don't be modest, I'll thank you anyways! So are you in favour of adding Greece along with the countries I listed above to such a list? And making a ref-note to Cyprus stating it's usually considered to be European and/or Middle Eastern?
(To be perfectly honest, my main motive for the change is to be factual. But actually, I'm also thinking of making a top and bottom three nations by region, to the article Democracy Index, and was unsure if I should place Cyprus with Eastern Europe or the Middle East. I still think the country is more identifiable with the former than the latter, wouldn't you agree?)
Dank Chicken (talk) 17:38, 26 December 2017 (UTC)

No. I would opt for keeping it as is, but if someone made such a list, I guess I wouldn't object, Well, I have not seen Democracy Index, but it sounds like a political article. If so, you can easily place the nation of Cyprus in Europe or EU without changing anything here. SVTCobra (talk) 23:19, 26 December 2017 (UTC)

By the way, the Middle East is not a "geographical fact" like people on here stated and even though the majority of the Middle Eastern Nations are situated in West Asia, it certainly does not mean that the Middle East and West Asia are synonymous!! So much ignorance it is sad. Anyways, The Middle East is a man made geopolitical region which means the region's geographical makeup was literally determined by man solely based on shared politics, culture, language and shared history rather than a shared continent and that is why the countries of the Caucasus such as Armenia and Azerbaijan, which are in west Asia, are not considered in the Middle East while Egypt, which is in Africa, is considered to be in the Middle East(but to my shocking realization I found out that the CIA website thinks Azerbaijan, Georgia and Armenia are in the middle east which shows that the level of ignorance is even reaching the damn CIA.. GOD HELP US ALL!! Mind you, those are the people that we think are masterminds conspiring against us and controlling our every move, did 9/11, killed Kennedy, hiding Aliens from us, and are calling the shots for significant international events ). Anyways, the Middle East region was created way before the European term "Middle East" was invented. The region's concept was originally created by Arab Historians and geographers such as Ibn Khaldun in the Middle Ages as a division between the Western Berber Maghreb region(Libya, Algeria, Tunisia and Morocco) from the Eastern part of the Arab world(Egypt, the Levant, the Arabian peninsula and Iraq) and in the 19th and 20th century when the Europeans invented the term “Middle East” to refer to the same region, they added the non Arab countries(Iran, Turkey, Israel and Cyprus). Also context is very important when we are talking about those regions because in the modern context when we mention “North Africa” we are strictly just talking about the Maghreb region and not the actual entirety of North Africa. When will people be educated about this already? We are heading towards 2020 and people still think the Middle East is continental based when in fact it is a transcontinental region like it mentions in the article. Thank God for the few educated people on here. — Preceding unsigned comment added by ArabPride (talk • contribs) 07:57, 5 December 2019 (UTC)

Including unrecognized states in the list of countries

State of Palastine does have large international backing but is not a formally recognized country. Northern cyprus is only recognized by the republic of turkey. Both should be removed from the list. Chevington (talk) 17:13, 30 December 2019 (UTC)

Turkey Being In Middle East

I have questions about Turkey being in Middle East. In the article, it is specifically stated, that the European part of Turkey is Middle East too. What is the source, or information for these statements. I do not deny anything, but i wonder what is the reason Turkey listed as Middle East. I think, it can not be listed as Middle Eastern, as it can not be listed as European. If there are satisfying reasons for this situation, i want to know them and learn, if there are not, it would be the best to edit the article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by MehmetAliAkad (talk • contribs) 23:12, 31 January 2020 (UTC)

The definition of 'Middle East' is nebulous. Despite the article's assertions, even the map doesn't depict European Turkey as being in the Middle East. Strong claims as to the exact borders of the Middle Eastern region should be removed from the article.--Selimtheslim (talk) 20:16, 1 February 2020 (UTC)

I fixed the lede now. Khestwol (talk) 04:55, 2 February 2020 (UTC)

Thank you for editing but my question was wider than that. I wonder what makes Anatolia a part of Middle East. If the Eastern Turkey makes Turkey Middle East, then should not The European part of Turkey make it Europe ? Cyprus in this article have a similar problem, i think. Another user said The definition of Middle East is nebulous and he is right. Wikipedia is something more than an internet encyclopedia. It is the biggest of them in the world and it has the power to determine and change the definitons of terms. For those reasons, i think either Turkey should be excluded from Middle East, or it should be counted as Europe too in the Wikipedia` s Europe article. Of course, if the term Middle East something certain and if it has exact borders and if it can be proven with proofs, it can be stay this way too. MehmetAliAkad (talk) 18:18, 2 February 2020 (UTC)

The "Middle East" is a very broad term with not a single definition. In this case, it is not our job to decide where exactly is the Middle East, but to present as much information about the topic based on the sources. One thing is sure, the logical definition would say that Turkey is 97% Middle Eastern and 3% European. This would make it less European than France is South American (thanks to French Guiana, which forms 13% of France's territory).

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 20 February 2020

Move the "Greater Middle East" information from the 1st paragraph to the 2nd (or a new 4th paragraph) because 1) the 1st paragraph is too long at the moment and 2) the "Greater Middle East" differs from "Middle East", so it makes more sense to mention Greater after talking about the "core" Middle East information in the lead. 92.40.169.141 (talk) 14:59, 20 February 2020 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit extended-protected}} template. The first paragraph is all of four sentences, so that's hard to see as "too long". The first paragraph is discussing the possible and changing uses of the term so the wider definition is appropriately part of that. Overall, the lead complies with the current Manual of Style for ledes so I don't see the change as necessary. Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 18:56, 20 February 2020 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 7 May 2020

Please Add Pashto to the languages section as it is the Afghan National language - it can be added to the minority spoken section. WatanWatan2020 (talk) 11:55, 7 May 2020 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. — Tartan357  ^(Talk) 22:56, 7 May 2020 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 6 June 2020

Israel's government is a parliamentary democracy. Not a parliamentary republic. Please fix that. Hilabitton (talk) 13:20, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

 Not done: Isreal's government is actually a democratic republic, therefore this change is not being done. Galendalia Talk to me ^{CVU Graduate} 17:27, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

Official languages of Israel

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_East#Languages

Arabic is not more an official language of Israel since 2018.— Preceding unsigned comment added by EitanBor2001 (talk • contribs) 19:12, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 10 June 2020

Add English to Official Languages list because it is the official language of Akrotiri and Dhekelia. Add Russian to Languages without official status list because it is spoken by ~3 million people in the Middle East. Mainly in Israel and by people from the Caucasus region. YeetMachete (talk) 22:59, 10 June 2020 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Jack Frost (talk) 01:50, 11 June 2020 (UTC)

Sources:

For English being official language of Akrotiri and Dhekelia: https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/print_ax.html https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/print_dx.html

For russian being spoken by *1.3 million people in the Middle East and North Africa: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_language#Geographic_distribution https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Languages_of_Israel#Russian — Preceding unsigned comment added by YeetMachete (talk • contribs)

 Done Thanks. I've added the sources for English. Wikipedia isn't a source, but I've added a source for your second claim (re Russian) as well. Both languages added and cited. ProcrasinatingReader (talk) 00:16, 13 June 2020 (UTC)

"Middle-East" with a hyphen in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_East#Economy

I assume this is a mistake, since the word "Middle East" doesn't have a hyphen anywhere else in the article. The 30/500 protection prevents me from editing it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 23:05, 12 July 2020 (UTC) (talk • contribs)

European portion of Turkey

The European portion of Turkey, the land belonging to the continent of Europe, may be culturally Middle Eastern, but geographically it is Europe, we should remove it from the definitions and images of the middle eastern region. B. M. L. Peters (talk) 03:12, 6 August 2020 (UTC)

If you have a source that provides specific geographic boundaries for the Middle East and the idea it cannot overlap with Europe then that would be useful. Most sources simply list countries that fall within this vague category. CMD (talk) 04:43, 6 August 2020 (UTC)

Languages

In the article it is mentioned that "the five top languages, in terms of numbers of speakers, are Arabic, Persian, Turkish, Kurdish, and Hebrew". This is wrong. Modern Hebrew has worldwide just 5 million L1 speakers and just 4 million L2 speakers. In total just 9 million speakers worldwide. Azerbaijani on the other hand has 23 million speakers. If we exclude Republic of Azerbaijan from the "Middle East", it has alone in Iran at least 10 million speakers. So the five top languages in the Middle East, are Arabic, Persian, Turkish, Kurdish, and Azerbaijani. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 149.233.35.210 (talk) 10:25, 5 September 2020 (UTC)

I would like to make it more up to date

The population is old sk I took all nations and added the newest census of every country togheter and it was 436.164.000 the times of the censuses were 2017-2020 most of them in 2018 and 2019 but one was 2020 and one 2017 King Nariman II (talk) 00:39, 11 November 2020 (UTC)

I see vandalism in the page with the changes of the Middle East map April/5/2021.

vandalism in the page with a recent change to the Middle East map which is missing Egypt and Turkey. Absolutely Unacceptable!!

Agree. I don't know if it's vandalism, but I absolutely agree that the map shown at the top of the page should reflect the Middle East as described in the lede. -- Bob drobbs (talk) 18:33, 5 April 2021 (UTC)

I mean if this is not vandalism, then who are the uneducated fools that decided to put this nonsense as a depiction for the Middle East? Who allowed this joke to be put up in this article? This is not just a false depiction of the Middle East, but it also cancels out the entire Wikipedia’s article for the Middle East and it no longer represents the article, nor does it represent the sources linked to the article, and lastly, it no longer represent the other depictions of the region's maps that are presented in the article itself such as the "Middle East map of Köppen climate classification" or the "Oil and gas pipelines in the Middle-East". Not just that, but it also ruins all of the other articles that are related to the Middle East. These fools must be stripped off of their editorial privileges. This must change ASAP!! 2601:642:C401:6B10:497C:BE55:C6B8:3BA5 (talk) 21:59, 5 April 2021 (UTC)

Just discovered the user who changed this. He is named "GPinkerton". It states "reverting unexplained changes" and this is not the first time he does this. He did it a couple of days ago in 29 March 2021 and was reverted back to its original map on 1 April 2021, then 2 days later on 3 April 2021 he changed it again. He needs his editing abilities to be removed at once! This is indeed considered vandalism under Wikipedia’s policy of editing and guidelines and I quote “The malicious removal of encyclopedic content, or the changing of such content beyond all recognition, without any regard to our core content policies of neutral point of view (which does not mean no point of view), verifiability and no original research, is a deliberate attempt to damage Wikipedia.” Ahmad Abdul Malik (talk) 01:11, 6 April 2021 (UTC)

Just take a deep breath. GPinkerton didn't commit an act of vandalism, they gave a source for their change, see the page history at File:Middle East (orthographic projection).svg. Still, I reverted them, thinking that they should not have changed the file according to commons:COM:OW. --Rsk6400 (talk) 07:51, 6 April 2021 (UTC)

Thank you. And I do understand that he posted a “source” but this “source” was very subjective and it came from a specific dictionary edition that had many different definitions for the region in their previous editions. On the other hand, this Wikipedia article has been very consistent with its representation of the region and with countless of Sources linked to the article itself(not just some single edition from a single dictionary). Simply posting a single random source and calling it “non vandalism” begs the question. I can literally find a source from at least one major university that has a totally different definition of the region. That still does not mean that 1- it is the correct and traditional historic meaning of the region and 2- It does not mean that we should contradict the entire article along with its countless linked sources that have been collected and linked to the article over the years. Again I thank you for the consistency and the preserving of the article. Ahmad Abdul Malik (talk) 11:56, 6 April 2021 (UTC)

ok this guy GPinkerton should be stripped off of his editing privileges now!! Not only is he ignorant about what the Middle East is, but he is also changing it again in defiance of the policies. He keeps changing it back to his own version and states the following as a justification... "There are already numerous maps of looser definitions these images should be used for those purposes. Wikipedia's (badly sourced, inaccurate) "Middle East" article should not govern the contents of this page.". GPinkerton this is not a "loose definition", this is the traditional Middle East that has been around for decades and been used in my country Egypt which was the cultural and political hub of the region. Egypt itself is dubbed "the Hollywood of the Middle East". GPinkerton does not even believe in the article he is posting images on and calls it "badly sourced" and "Inaccurate". I come from the region and this has been the classical map for the Middle East and was hanging on the wall of our class in Egypt back in the 1990's. The term "Middle East" aka "Al Sharq al Awsat"(in Arabic) has also been used by most if not all the Egyptian politicians and presidents in reference to Egypt and the rest of the region since Gamal Abdul Nasser all the way to president el Sisi, the current president of Egypt. The Middle East is also not confined to a single continent, (if that is what you are confused about and felt the need to change it for) but the Middle East is a transcontinental region that extends to Africa(via Egypt) Asia(via Cyprus, the Levant, Arabian Peninsula and Iraq) and Europe(via Turkey which is a Eurasian nation). So GPinkerton if you choose to use your new definition of the "Middle East", then do it on your own website. Again, this person is not eligible to have editing privileges that lets him edit protected articles. Ahmad Abdul Malik (talk) 13:17, 6 April 2021 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 24 April 2021

"Pakistan is not a Part of Middle East, it can also be seen in the reference images provided here that it is not on the Map area marked as middle east" 2A02:C7F:9244:F900:E970:5A9B:8B7B:DA1 (talk) 21:37, 24 April 2021 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 21:45, 24 April 2021 (UTC)

"Greater Middle East", remove it?

The "Greater Middle East" is mentioned in the first paragraph but it should either be moved down (which I have now) or remove altogether from the lead section. The Greater Middle East article itself says that it is a political term that includes various other countries not in the "core" region of the Middle East. It is very misleading to mention this at the top, when instead (as I've changed just now) the lead should mention the 18 states of the universally accepted Middle East and its sub-regions like Levant. MENA should probably be mentioned because it has a more accepted and true geographic definition. --Weaveravel (talk) 17:35, 21 July 2021 (UTC)

There is no single definition of the "Middle East". For example, not everyone agrees if countries like Libya, Algeria, or Morocco should be included or not. So better to use both definitions and clarify. Khestwol (talk) 17:41, 21 July 2021 (UTC)

But surely the alternatives shouldn't be right at the top? --Weaveravel (talk) 20:56, 21 July 2021 (UTC)

Alternatives help illustrate the differing definitions of the word, and give context to the particular definition chosen in this article. (Even the definition used here is potentially wider than the core Middle East.) Such information is definitely lead-worthy. CMD (talk) 01:14, 22 July 2021 (UTC)

Problem with the map

The lede of this article states that the Middle East includes Anatolia but not East Thrace (European Turkey). However, the map shows European Turkey as a part of the Middle East. So either the lede or the map must be edited for consistency. Khestwol (talk) 08:48, 22 July 2021 (UTC)

This is a bit too much precision to be attributing to a term which isn't in itself precise. However, that addition to the lead was recent, so I've removed it. I think it was adapted from the Territories and regions section, but its use there is unsourced. CMD (talk) 09:07, 22 July 2021 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 14 August 2021

Why Pakistan is not included in this list of middle east countries while it shows oftenly on any map and on almost any website. 151.48.160.151 (talk) 10:26, 14 August 2021 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 11:16, 14 August 2021 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 14 August 2021 (2)

Amerheather (talk) 15:44, 14 August 2021 (UTC) why pakistan and afghanistan are not included in this wikipedia article. they are a part even before the the concept of  The Greater Middle East introduced in March 2004 in a paper (by the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace as part of the U.S. administration's preparatory work for the G8 summit of June 2004, denoting a vaguely defined region that includes the Arab world plus Afghanistan, Cyprus, Iran, Israel, Pakistan and Turkey)according to wikipedia article Secretary of State John Foster Dulles defined the Middle East as "the area lying between and including Libya on the west and Pakistan on the east, Syria and Iraq on the North and the Arabian peninsula to the south, plus the Sudan and Ethiopia." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_East#:~:text=Secretary%20of%20State%20John%20Foster,terms%20%22Near%20East%22%20and%20%22 

By investopedia link# investopedia.com/terms/m/middle-east-and-north-africa-mena.asp What Are the Countries in the Middle East? The Middle East is generally considered to include the countries on or near the Arabian Peninsula, including Egypt, Iran, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Syria, Jordan, the United Arab Emirates, Israel, Lebanon, Oman, the Palestinian territories, Kuwait, Qatar, and Bahrain. Turkey, Afghanistan, and Pakistan are often grouped together with the Middle East, but they are not typically included in considerations of the MENA region.

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Wikipedia and investopedia are not reliable sources. You still haven't provided the exact edit you'd like. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 16:02, 14 August 2021 (UTC)

Why are Afghanistan and Pakistan not in the Middle East

I have seen many sources such as Business Insider, World Atlas, NPR, Multichannel Merchant, Research Gate and even Britannica labelling Afghanistan and Pakistan in the Middle East. Afghanistan and Pakistan are considered part of MENA which is Middle East and North Africa. Even ICARDA and International Monetary Fund (IMF) labelled Afghanistan and Pakistan in the area. One of the biggest Republican politician John Foster Dulles also included Afghanistan and Pakistan. I demand that Afghanistan and Pakistan should be added on this article. Thanks Salamun44 (talk) — Preceding undated comment added 20:55, 15 August 2021 (UTC)

Jerusalem

The sovereignty of Jerusalem is disputed, but you put it in territories table as the capital of Israel, in addition to putting the name of Israel under the picture of occupied East Jerusalem in the photo gallery. I think neutrality is missing here. Check this article in Wikipedia “Status of Jerusalem “. Moudinho1996 (talk) 21:46, 29 August 2021 (UTC)

Middle East challenge

We should add people like Nawal El Saadawi who always challenged this term as being only accurate when viewed by the British or Westerners but people from the region don’t necessarily see themselves as in the Middle including Egypt which is in Africa Nlivataye (talk) 07:13, 18 September 2021 (UTC)

This topic is covered in the article. CMD (talk) 13:35, 18 September 2021 (UTC)

No, the term "Middle East" has a historical significance and connotation, specially in Egypt. One of Egypt's most significant radio stations is called "Middle East Broadcast" إذاعة الشرق الأوسط that began in 1964 in Cairo. Not to mention Egypt itself is dubbed "The Hollywood of the Middle East". Anyways, The term "Middle East" is not the Middle of a specific continent nor is it confined to a single continent. It is a region that is situated on the intersection of Africa(Via Egypt), Asia(via the Arabian Peninsula, Levant, Iraq and Iran) and Europe(via Turkey)). It refers to the Middle of the East in relation to Western Europe's proximity(which bred terms such as Near East, Middle East and Far East) in other words, they are terms to designate the nations from a West European directional perspective. So you are half right when it comes to the British creating this term, but that doesn't mean that the term is shunned by the nations of the region like you have suggested, on the contrary, the nations in what we call "the Middle East" have celebrated and implemented this term in their daily lives(from News Networks, To Radio stations, to News papers, to film making, etc). Another factor that you need to understand is that in the Middle East, people use regional identity(like they have done during the middle ages) rather than continental identity. Continental identity is a Western concept, while directional identity has been an Eastern concept for a very long time. A good example for this is the Maghreb and the Mashriq, which is an Arab concept created in the Middle Ages. The word "Maghreb" is Arabic for "Where the sun sets" referring to the Western part of the Arab world, while the word "Mashriq" is Arabic for "Where the sun rises" referring to the Eastern part of the Arab world. If you go up to a Saudi or an Egyptian and call them "Asian and African" they would laugh at you, because they simply don't use this type of identity. Lumping peoples based on continental boundaries is a very western thing to do and it does nothing when it comes to making outsiders understand our region. To understand a people, you need to group them based on their close knitted regions, rather than grouping them with people that might be on the same continent as they are, but are thousands of miles apart(Iraq and China for example) .Ahmad Abdul Malik (talk) 00:43, 6 April 2022 (UTC)

Caucuses / Caucasus

"Caucasus" is spelled wrong, leading to a link that makes no sense in the context of the article.

Quite right, whoever you are - my apologies! That is now fixed. Iskandar323 (talk) 07:38, 22 September 2021 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 6 February 2022

add link to egypt Hieldjdjs (talk) 22:00, 6 February 2022 (UTC)

 Already done See the first sentence. Cannolis (talk) 10:04, 7 February 2022 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

• MAKKAH - panoramio.jpg

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 17:08, 19 February 2022 (UTC)

Why include Arabic

The Middle East is home to many languages. Why is “the middle east” provided in Arabic in the intro, but no other languages? 2A02:C7E:3272:2200:8C91:8A60:2D23:ED6F (talk) 00:11, 1 March 2022 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 27 April 2022

i want to update the gdp and gdp per capita columns in the "Territories and regions usually considered within the Middle East" table using 2022 imf data. Bongoven (talk) 07:26, 27 April 2022 (UTC)

Editing rights cannot be given on a page by page basis. If you post the data here, someone else might be able to update it. CMD (talk) 08:29, 27 April 2022 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 4 June 2022

Please add in the Translation section that it is called 中东 (literally Middle East) in Chinese as well. It is not east of China, but that is what it is called. 2001:569:7E7F:8000:8D86:4CA5:B19:BD7 (talk) 01:13, 4 June 2022 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 01:15, 4 June 2022 (UTC)

Just look at what the Chinese article for Middle East is titled. That's like asking for a reliable source that North America is called North America. It just is. But if you must require one, this one makes it pretty obvious https://news.un.org/zh/news/region/middle-east2001:569:7E7F:8000:A0A8:88A3:817C:2824 (talk) 16:27, 5 June 2022 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 5 June 2022

malay should be included in the minority language Mymomscar (talk) 07:01, 5 June 2022 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Happy Editing--IAmChaos 02:57, 6 June 2022 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 13 June 2022

Israel official language is only Hebrew. please change and remove the Arabic as official. Sources can be found at the Israel wiki page. 2A00:A040:184:31EC:44B:7BBF:8433:C899 (talk) 14:38, 13 June 2022 (UTC)

 Done Cannolis (talk) 04:00, 14 June 2022 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 15 July 2022

In the "History" section, change: "The region is one of the regions were agriculture was independently discovered" to "The region is one of the regions where agriculture was independently discovered". Wdai365 (talk) 22:37, 15 July 2022 (UTC)

 Done RudolfRed (talk) 02:13, 16 July 2022 (UTC)

Correction on grammar.

In the second paragraph in Languages it says "also spoken Yemen and Oman".

It should say "also spoken *in* Yemen and Oman". 2A02:ED1:F000:511A:C8FD:47FF:FE9A:4CBD (talk) 03:01, 9 October 2022 (UTC)

Occupied areas

If you want to write that some of Israel land is occupied it’s ok but you should be accurate about the country it was occupied from: Gaza Strip was part of Egypt. East Jerusalem and the West bank was part of Jordan. Palestine wasn’t a country when this areas were occupied. Just like the Golan Heights were part of Syria. 109.186.36.218 (talk) 20:11, 16 October 2022 (UTC)

Israel's languages

Regarding the languages paragraph, Israel does not have 2 official languages, it misleads the readers, Israel has 1 official language - Hebrew. Arabic is not defined as an official language since 2018 but as a "language with a special status in the state" according to the *Basic Law*, "Israel as the Nation-State of the Jewish People"... CasperGhost1 (talk) 17:45, 1 December 2022 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 4 December 2022

Egypt is not a country of the Middle East as per United nation. Its North Africa's region country, so all related info about Egypt shall be removed Capt.Ezz (talk) 17:08, 4 December 2022 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Pizzaplayer219^Talk_Contribs 16:29, 5 December 2022 (UTC)

Armenia

Why isn't the Armenian highlands part of the Middle East proper, it's in Western Asia? Oscarjohnson1981 (talk) 23:21, 9 February 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 11 February 2023

Include Armenia or more specifically the Armenian Highlands Oscarjohnson1981 (talk) 23:04, 11 February 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Cannolis (talk) 07:48, 12 February 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 22 February 2023

Either change Israel's capital photo or at least acknowledge that East Jerusalem is not categorically part of Israel but rather it's disputed. Jurteggenn (talk) 09:45, 22 February 2023 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{Edit extended-protected}} template. This is definitely a thing, and discussion should take place before any change is made. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 13:27, 23 February 2023 (UTC)

misleading information reference to ethnic groups make

Statements in the second paragraphs:

"Most Middle Eastern countries (13 out of 18) are part of the Arab world." "Arabs constitute the main socioethnic grouping in the region,"

are meant to be misleading, and is ignoring the real diversity of the middle east region. There are no mention that of three of "The most populous countries in the region are Egypt, Turkey, and Iran" two are not Arab, and that few other large population countries in the list of 13 "Arab countries" are multi-ethnic. If numbers are added up less than %55 of regions population identify as Arabs. That is not the definition of "main" ethnic group. Headofeditorialstaff (talk) 05:51, 26 February 2023 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 31 March 2023 kivd

2003:F3:F0E:6D00:1160:61C2:13F6:EB14 (talk) 20:56, 31 March 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Lizthegrey (talk) 21:37, 31 March 2023 (UTC)

Criticism of the term

A section should be added of people including the late Nawal El Saadawi criticizing the term and how colonial since it was referred by the British in relation to them not the whole world 197.250.227.27 (talk) 12:02, 7 April 2023 (UTC)