Talk:Moni Aizik/Archive 1

Moni and Krav Maga (2008 Discussion)

In the 1970s, shortly after the Yom Kippur War, Moni was asked to improve upon the army's existing hand-to-hand combat system. With his knowledge of martial arts including various Israeli Fighting systems, Jujutsu and Judo, Moni was asked to develop a more effective combat program specifically designed for certain Special forces, which is now known as Krav Maga.

I reverted the removal of the previous paragraph because the information was cited and seemed to be true based off the citation. If anyone wants to dispute this information by providing reliable sources showing he had nothing to do with the formation of Krav Maga, I'll be happy to assume this is some sort of promotional material and leave it out. Themfromspace (talk) 03:19, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

• I looked over the Real Fighting site and could not find the owners name. If this is Moni Aizis web site, the statements in the wiki article should be presented as verified quotations rather than verified facts. jmcw (talk) 10:08, 26 November 2008 (UTC)

• The ASA assessment concerns 'Commando Krav Maga' advertising. It makes no comment about the web site under discussion. Who is the author of the web site? Is it a primary source?jmcw (talk) 10:52, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

The website is an interview, so yes, it is a primary source. RogueNinja_talk 13:43, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

I think it may have been carried over from the merge of commando krav maga info when that was deleted.

• It is an interview. The quality of the reference depend on the interviewer: they bear responsobility for verifying the accuracy of the statements in an interview. To resolve the slow edit war, we need some answers:
  • Who is the interviewer? Is he reliable? I do not find his name anywhere.

His name appears to be WR Mann.

• • Who is realfighting.com? Is it reliable? Is it a personal blog? From whom?

An interview with WR Mann about realfighting.com[1]

• • Is there any other reference available?

Attributed to Eyal Yanilov: "Perhaps he can kill us all in two seconds, but Moni is not teaching Krav Maga."http://kmforum.kravmaga.com/showthread.php?t=2510]

Look, the ASA agrees that Moni was never in the special forces. Besides making all interviews with him suspect, it also means he was never asked to redesign the military's self defense program. I am removing the paragraph.

In the ASA assessment, it was determined that the advertiser did not have information to support a claim of "counter terrorism expertise". The material with two references that you deleted made no claims about "counter terrorism expertise" - the ASA assessment does not apply. Would you care to return the deleted material? jmcw (talk) 13:35, 11 December 2008 (UTC)

1) Realfighting.com: a private website run by WR Mann. Mr. Mann is an American martial arts instructor based out of New York, the interview he conducted with Moni Aizik was a direct interview involving only Mr. Mann and Mr. Aizik. Mr. Mann did not research or confirm any of the information given to him by Mr. Aizik in that interview with official bodies in Israel nor did he request and verify documentation from Mr. Aizik, such as Mr. Aizik's military discharge certificate, to substantiate Mr. Aizik's claims. This is Mr. WR Mann's e-mail address: wr@realfighting.com <wr@realfighting.com>, please contact him and check for yourself. I'm positive that Mr. Mann took Mr. Aizik at face value in good faith, and did not know that Mr. Aizik was providing him false information.

2) The ASA investigation and findings: the ASA investigated 2 specific claims advertised by Mr. Aizik:

  1) his claims of being an "Ex-Israeli Special Forces Commando"
  2) that he is "a counter terrorism expert"

The ASA found and concluded that Mr. Aizik was not capable of substantiating both of those claims and is therefore not allowed to make any of those claims in any future advertisements.

3) References by reliable sources as to the fact that Mr. Moni Aizik was not a Commando in the Israeli Special Forces, and was never involved in anything related to Krav Maga in the Israeli Defense Froces, including teaching, training, or founding/co-founding that system in whole or in part:

  A) "Moni did not serve in an elite commando unit. He was not assigne to Imi to 'revamp' krav maga. He has nothing 
      to do with the advancement of krav maga for the IDF." 

      http://kmforum.kravmaga.com/showthread.php?t=2838 - posted by Morkravi/Y. a current serving krav maga instructor
      in the IDF.

  B) “Moni Aizik advertises that he was a commanding officer in the Israeli Special Forces which he was not” 
     "he is advertising to the public that his system Commando Krav Maga/CKM is the official system of the IDF     

special units and that he still train our special units once a month in his system. His system is judo and jujitsu and nothing more than that, it has nothing to do with Krav Maga, and it has never been taught to any single soldier in the IDF and Moni does not teach any of our units."

      http://hockscombatforum.com/index.php?PHPSESSID=65e8a36978436eca1b8dd3702555295c&topic=4217.0 - posted by  
      Elad, former Lieutenant in the Israeli Special Forces and current instructor in the Israeli Special Forces
      reserves.   

      http://www.moniaizik.info/2010/04/the-article-that-started-it-all-black-belt-2005.html - posted by Robb Hamic.  This is a copy of the 2005 Black Belt Article where Mr. Aizik makes many claims.  There is also an insertion of a recording where he retracts   information published in the article.  His admissions contradict previously published information.   —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.114.153.32 (talk) 13:18, 9 April 2010 (UTC) 

LT. Yuval Aran, Israeli Defense Force —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dmmotp (talk • contribs) 14:21, 12 December 2008 (UTC)

Lieutenant Yuval Aran, Israeli Defense Force

Sir/Madam,

I am a current serving officer in the Israeli Defense Force.

The page on the subject of Moni Aizik and Krav Maga contains false and misleading information, and I am requesting that it be corrected.

The following paragraph is false:

In the 1970s, shortly after the Yom Kippur War, Moni was asked to improve upon the army's existing hand-to-hand combat system. With his knowledge of martial arts including various Israeli Fighting systems, Jujutsu and Judo, Moni was asked to develop a more effective combat program specifically designed for certain Special forces, which is now known as Krav Maga[1].

Moni Aizik did not serve in the Israeli Defense Force in any capacity that dealt with hand-to-hand combat, self-defense, or krav maga training/instruction. Moni Aizik was never asked to improve upon any areas of the Israeli Defense Force’s combat, self-defense, krav maga systems. This information can easily be verified by asking Mr. Aizik to produce his military discharge certificate, a document issued to every single individual discharged from his/her military service with the IDF. Mr. Aizik refuses to produce this document to all who request it stating that it is classified due to his involvement with the Israeli Special Forces.

Inspection of Mr. Aizik’s military discharge certificate will confirm that he did not serve in the Special Forces, that he has no background or certification in counter terrorism, that he had no contact or responsibility with krav maga in the IDF at any time during his service, and that he was discharged from service with the rank of Sergeant as opposed to the rank of Lieutenant or Major as he claims in various publications. This is the only reason as to why Mr. Aizik refuses to provide proof of his military service, proof that if he were telling the truth, would only corroberate his claims.

Krav Maga was developed by Imi Lichtenfeld. In 1948 Mr. Lichtenfeld was appointed as the Israeli Defense Force’s Chief Commander and served that duty until 1968. He then appointed one of his top students, Mr. Eli Avikzar, to replace him who served that position untill 1988. At no time during Mr. Aizik’s service, did he ever come into professional contact with any of these two individuals.

There exists no evidence whatsoever that Moni Aizik had anything to do with Krav Maga. This is information that can easily be verified through official resources including the Israeli Defense Force, the Israeli Ministry of Defense, the Israeli Ministry of Education, and the Israeli Ministry of Culture. Further, if a simple internet search were conducted on krav maga, it would show that any sources related to Moni Aizik contain their own accounts of the history of krav maga, the development/creation of krav maga, and Moni Aizik’s involvement with krav maga in the Israeli Defense Force, while every other source, including those of all the current standing krav maga organizations contain a completely different account of krav maga which is unified, consistant, and negates Mr. Moni Aizik’s self-created account.

A statement was made that the paragraph in question would remain unchanged on the Wiki/Moni Aizik page due to the fact that it contained citations. The citations noted as supporting factors to this paragraph come from www.realfighting.com, a private website created by and belonging to Mr. W.R. Mann. Mr. Mann has no official standing contact or experience with the Israeli Defense Force or Israeli Ministry of Defense and has no means of verifying and corroborating the replies he received from Moni Aizik during his interview with Mr. Aizik where he received the cited information. Therefore, Wiki’s stand on not making the necessary amendmants to the Moni Aizik page using the realfighting.com citations as sufficient grounds is unacceptable and holds no merit.

On that same point, it should be noted that all the listed citation sources about Mr. Moni Aizik on the Wiki/Moni page are direct resources of Mr. Moni Aizik himself, and that none are independent official resources.

Further, it should also be noted that Wikipedia.com already contains a separate page on Krav Maga, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krav_maga, and in this page the information is not only accurate and factual, but it contains absolutely no mention of Mr. Moni Aizik in any capacity. The Wikipedia Krav Maga page and the Moni Aizik/krav maga page contradict one another in factual information, and the krav maga page uses citations from independent official, credible, and verifiable sources.

It should be noted that Mr. Moni Aizik’s motives for the misleading and untruthfull information on the Wikipedia site are self serving and self promoting for the purpose of profit. Mr. Moni Aizik developed a martial arts system called Combat Survival in the late 1970’s. In 2001, after the 9/11 attacks, Krav Maga became a very popular self defense system across North America and it was only at that point that Mr. Aizik changed the name of his system to Commando Krav Maga (CKM) to include the name Krav Maga in an attempt to lead the public to believe that his system was an official form of Krav Maga. Mr. Aizik also engineered an elaborate false story about his military background, which included the claim that he “was assigned to improve the IDF’s hand-to-hand combat system where the result of that task was the creation of his own system called Commando Krav Maga which was then to be used and is still currently used as the Israeli Special Force’s official hand-to-hand combat system.”

All the information noted above are verifiable facts. Given the fact that Wikipedia.com is regarded as a source for research on valid information, I am requesting that the above mentioned paragraph be removed and banned so as to reflect the truth and not confuse the public with any perceived association between Krav Maga, the official hand-to-hand combat system of the Israeli Defense Force, and Moni Aizik and his self-created system of Commando Krav Maga.

Respectfully,

Yuval Aran, Lieutenant Israeli Defense Force —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dmmotp (talk • contribs) 12:43, 29 November 2008 (UTC)

• Thank you for the additional information. Wiki is built on verifiable references (not on Truth). You have asserted All the information noted above are verifiable facts. If you can show me these reference here on the talk page, I would be glad to update the article. I am personally not satisfied with this article but we need references to avoid personal points of view. jmcw (talk) 09:53, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

Lichtenfeldt had retired in 1964

According to the reference in the wiki article on Imi_Lichtenfeld, Lichtenfeld retired from the military in 1964 and went to work for the Israeli Ministry of Education. I don't see any reference that says where Aizik claims to have worked a year with Lichtenfel. The sentence with doubts about 10 year old Aizik seems like OR. jmcw (talk) 10:46, 17 December 2008 (UTC)

I deleted the reference (which was a dead link) and added discussion below. --S. Rich (talk) 16:58, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

Moni and Krav Maga (2009 Discussion)

• Moni Aizik 'Claimed' to have been involved with Lichtenfeldt for a 12 month project to review Krav Maga in the IDF. Aizik later retracted this claim after it emerged that Imi Lichtenfeldt retired in 1964 - 10 years before the claimed event. Moni Aizik reverted this to he had met Imi on one occassion. Aizik himself has now withdrawn his IDF claim.

Numerous sources within the IDF have stated that Moni Isaac had no role as a Krav Maga Instructor in the IDF. I wrote a long expose on Aizik after protracted discussion with his own instructors. Moni has made a history of fanciful claims included claiming to have been made to stay under water for 12 hours breathing through a straw - he claimed to have been ambushed in a battle with 2000 syrian troops - the isreali military has no record of anything like this. Aizik also claimed to have been a commando which has been robustly challenged and claims to have left with various ranks from Majot to lieutenant - inside sources state he lefty as an NCO. and he has a history of systematic fabrication of facts and events. Aizik has also withdrawn some claims such as being a counter terror expert. If this is a neutral article it must require reasonable evidence both ways - i.e from Aizik also.{SOMERSET KRAV MAGA} —Preceding unsigned comment added by Somersetkravmaga (talk • contribs) 07:41, 5 February 2009 (UTC)

I have no personal interest in Moni Aizik. I do have interest in Wikipedia:Biographies of living persons. Any negative statement about Moni Aizik must be referenced with very high quality sources (as in the ASA section). Blogs cannot be used to source a biography of a living person. An interview can be a source for a statement from the person ("claims", "says"). This statement is not "Truth": it is only an accurately reported self-reference. It is often difficult to find authoritative, negative references about a living person. jmcw (talk) 10:35, 5 February 2009 (UTC)

Moni Aizik admitted to only meeting the founder of Krav Maga once in a recorded conversation and stated that he and Imi Lichtenfeld "agreed to disagree on his system of CKM." He said that Imim Lichtenfeld was insignificant in his life. This claim is a complete reversal from his previous advertising, interviews and official history that he has given. In the same interview, he states that he has not returned to Israel in 6-12 years and does not train any Israeli Special Forces units monthly as previously quoted as saying. He further states that when he did go to Israel prior to the 6-12 year time-frame that he only trained people informality, which is a direct contradiction of his previous statement and written articles, interviews, etc. [</ref>http://www.moniaizik.info/2010/04/the-article-that-started-it-all-black-belt-2005.html </ref>] In addition, CKM revised its official history by deleting these claims on its own corporate website and Moni Aizik's biography. [</ref>http://www.commandokravmaga.com/html/combatsurvival.html </ref>] —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.114.153.32 (talk) 13:13, 9 April 2010 (UTC)

Do better homework

The UK organization that will not allow CKM to advertise its claims has not disproven Aizik's claims. They merely assert that Moni has not proved his claims. It is a leap of logic to say that such claims are untrue just because evidence has not yet been offered. Instead, at best you can only say that Moni's claims are unverified. Furthermore, some people on this discussion board are outright liars. Moni has not retracted the statement about working with Imi in 1974, nor has he denied the training of special forces in the IDF. I have spoken personally with Moni last December (2008) and am a certified instructor under him in CKM. I have experience in KM and can tell you that CKM's moves are derived from KM and Judo concepts. Only a fool would look at CKM techniques and not see the KM roots to it. This is especially true of the pressure training drills.

With that said, let me state a few observations. First, the main attackers of Moni are Darren Levine's people, who are angry over the fact that the courts would not allow them to trademark Krav Maga. In Israel, it is just as basic of a word as karate is in Japan. Levine's people are capitalizing on the ignorance of Americans and are trying to make Krav Maga sound like something it is not. Moni's use of the term Krav Maga takes business revenue away from Levine and other KM instructors. Second, the Military Channel, History Channel, and other reputable media sources have aired and restated Moni's claims. Moni's critics are expecting us to believe that these reputable groups were duped by Moni's lies and they did no homework on the man. The fact that Moni has received the media attention by groups like this lends much more credibility to his claims. Also, I don't recall the IDF commandos criticizing Jason Chamber's gun disarm techniques during the Human Weapon episode during his final test at the end. In fact, it was on the gun part that Chambers made no errors -- he learned these techniques from Moni. On knife defense and chokes, he had trouble (he learned these from the regular KM teachers). Also, are you expecting everyone to believe that Blackbelt Magazine would do article after article on Moni if he was a fraud? Third, how do the critics respond to the fact that MAJ Avi Nardia and LTC Chaim Peer back Moni up all of the way on his claims? These men do train special forces in Israel, and Avi was personally trained by Moni as a child. When you have credible mid-ranking officers from the IDF supporting Moni, it tends to make the LT in this discussion board seem rather insignificant. I am a 1LT in the USAR, and I do not have access to what men were involved in special forces training in the Army from 30 years ago. So just because a man is in the IDF as a junior officer in 2009, it does not make him a qualified expert as to who was or was not a trainer of special forces in Israel. That is very deceiving for him to write what he did. Fourth and final, I think it would do the KM Moni critics well to find out how many KM instructors have left regular KM affiliations and have joined Moni. I personally know some high rank KM instructors who resigned their affiliation after training with Moni. Some of them attended his boot camps to prove him as a fraud, but instead left KM and became committed to CKM. Why? If Moni was a fraud and if CKM had nothing to do with KM, don't you think these KM instructors would spot that out and show Moni as a liar? They can't do such because CKM is saturated in KM principles, but of course Moni evolved it and removed some of the KM deficiencies on certain techniques. These KM people walk away impressed and committed to Moni's version. It is no wonder Yalnov admitted that Moni could probably kill him in 2 seconds. Furthermore, just because Imi retired in 1964 does not mean that he ceased to develop KM and never worked with the government on a continuing basis as a civilian. As a civilian instructor he still would have provided training workshops for IDF soldiers. Moni could have worked with him in that time. Once again, it was a leap of logic to assume that a 1964 retirement makes impossible 1974 training and development in the system of KM.

People need to do their homework and stop trying to ruin a man's business out of jealousy. The four points above are enough to call the critics into question. Let me review them: Point 1 -- Moni's attackers have a vested interest in bringing him down since they are affiliated with Levine's group and Moni serves as monetary competition. Point 2 -- Too many reputable TV shows and magazines have accepted Moni's claims and printed them. Point 3 -- Well respected and recognized IDF officers (Nardia and Peer) do back up Moni. Point 4 -- Many KM instructors abandon it for CKM after they train in it. The weight of these arguments is far greater than those that counter. On the other side, Moni's critics can only say, "We have no proof of his claims." They have no "disproof" either. An argument from silence will never satisfy a debate. Get us something real.

1LT Feinstein

YES - DO BETTER HOMEWORK

1st LT. Feinstein,

A) You are an American instructor/student under Pino/Moni Aizik, with all due respect to you a fellow soldier and Officer, you did not serve in the IDF and have zero knowledge or ability to acquire facts as to the internal facts about the IDF and it’s personnel,

B) The ASA’s findings/conclusions about Pino’s advertisements and inability to furnish supporting documentation for his claims, to an individual such as yourself who is not Israeli, did not serve in the IDF, and has a bias reason to support Pino can arguably be seen as inconclusive or unverified. However, to any Israeli who legitimately served in the Israeli Special Forces, Pino’s refusal to furnish factual information about his claims of service, is on face value alone, evidence enough that he is lying. And, frankly it’s quite surprising, that you yourself supposedly a military serviceman, can actually disregard the point that Pino claims to have served in a democratic/sovereign country’s military Special Forces but claims that even 30 years after being discharged he is not allowed to produce a discharge certificate/DD-214. I know for fact from thorough research and inquiry that even in the United States military there is no such thing as an individual released from SF service that is not issued/can not obtain a discharge certificate which states his SF service parameters no matter how classified his unit/operations are. This very structural flaw in Pino’s story that you support makes it very hard to believe that you are an actual military serviceman, let alone an officer,

C) Pino has altered his account of events in relation to working/training with Imi for a 1 year officially designated period, to having “met Imi once at a coffee shop and talking about Krav Maga”,

D) Only a fool can look at CKM and actually see any roots of authentic Krav Maga in it, and your statement on this point suggests that your actual ‘training’ experience in KM may have been no more than minor exposure to KM as opposed to training,

E) The main and only attackers of Pino Aizik are authentic and original Krav Maga pioneers, master instructors, organization heads (IKMA, IKMF, Protect-USA, etc), and real IDF SF officials. Their only reasons and motivation for “attacking” Pino is that he is falsely using the term Krav Maga to create a false inference on the public that his system is or has anything to do with real Krav Maga, that he is discrediting real Krav Maga, that he is riding on the hard work and shed blood that created real Krav Maga and forged its credibility, that he is insulting the memories of Israel’s fallen warriors during the Yom Kippur War, and that he is making a mockery of Israel’s true Special Forces members,

F) The Human Weapon episode. Since you were not there standing in the LOTAR’s (IDF CT School) Krav Maga training room during the filming, and I was, let me tell you the facts behind it. Moni’s entire segment in the show was filmed in a remote forest 2 hours from the CTS, Moni was not granted entry to the CTS, the CTS’s involvement with the show was not to teach the stars its actual KM tactics nor was it to judge or comment on the tactics they used. The CTS was there to lend a backdrop of credibility for Israeli training. The only role the CTS and all of its instructors that were present in the room during the filming that day was, was to attack Jason Chambers and let him respond with the techniques he learned from a source not related to the CTS. I can assure you that had any of us known the background of what was going on in terms of the involvement of Pino/Moni Aizik, the Human Weapon would have never so much as seen the outside of the perimeter fence of the CTS,

G) I urge you to contact LTC Chaim Peer and ask him yourself if he believes in Pino’s claims/stories, and if he in fact actually wrote the endorsements presented in his name on Pino’s website. In fact, feel free to conatct Joel Gerson (Pino's longest standing student) www.revmma.com, and ask him who in fact created the endorsements on Pino's website and signed other individual's names on them!

H) I urge you to contact Black Belt magazine and verify for yourself the extent of research and verification they conducted on Pino’s claims before advertising them.

I) Your statement: “I am a 1LT in the USAR, and I do not have access to what men were involved in special forces training in the Army from 30 years ago. So just because a man is in the IDF as a junior officer in 2009, it does not make him a qualified expert as to who was or was not a trainer of special forces in Israel.” And yes sir you are 100% correct in theory, so again, to save you embarassment let me clarify a few things. 1- I have been in service in the IDF since 1999, 2- I may not be an expert on who was what in the IDF 30 years ago, but given my 10 years of service in the Israeli Special Forces as a Warrior, a Counter terrorism instructor, and a Krav Maga instructor, I am a qualified expert on the IDF’s structure and systems, enough so to qualify that Pino’s claims about his service and CKM do not exist in the IDF, and 3-you are trying to salvage Pino’s credibility for your selfish reasons with zero authenticated facts to back up your positions only opinions formed from the fact that you have allowed your interest in CKM to cloud your judgment. I on the other hand have this: 2166428. Pino Aizik’s IDF military service number. Which, after running it in the IDF personnel computer, does in fact make me an expert on what Pino ‘Moni’ Aizik actually did and was involved with during his military service, even if it was 30 years ago. And just to educate you on the facts, Sergeant Pino Aizik did NOT serve in the Israeli Special Forces, was NOT ambushed in the Yom Kippur War, and had NOTHING to do with Krav Maga, Imi Lichtenfeld, or developing any self defense systems for the IDF!

J) I think it would do CKM instructors well to find all the CKM instructors who left CKM due to Pino’s unethical practices and to the fact that they took the responsible route and verified Pino’s claims about himself and CKM only to find out that Pino Moni Aizik is a complete fraud,

K) It’s you sir who needs to do his homework before opening his mouth and making a fool out of himself and worse, aiding a proven and documented con artist in perpetuating his fraud on innocent people. I can say that I am prepared, willing, and able to take the stand in a court of law and under oath assert that what I am saying about Pino Moni Aizik, his claims, and his system CKM is the 100% factual truth. Can you do the same 1st LT. Feinstein?

Respectfully,

LT. Yuval Aran Dmmotp (talk) 15:08, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

SHALOM TO LT. ARAN

I have no way to verify anything you said, anymore than many of Moni's detractors have an ability to deny his claims. How do I know you were present during Human Weapon filming? How do I know that your claims are not selfish inventions so that you can make money off of Krav Maga? The fact of the matter is I have never met you and I would be a fool if I took your word for anything. I have met Moni. You have not proven anything in what you said. All you did was insult me a number of times (in logic this is called the ad hominem fallacy) and questioned my service to the United States Army Reserve. How professional of you! Moni has given his word to top CKM instructors that he will soon furnish proof of his claims. He returned to Israel in early October 2009, and the military agreed to give him a letter stating he was in an elite unit during the Yom Kippur War. When he gets the official letter from them, he will post it. If not, then you might be right. Until then, I will trust him since I know him. I do not know you.

My arguments were still valid in my post, and you did nothing to refute them other than saying that you were there during filming and that you are in the IDF. Once again, that means nothing to me unless I can verify it. Making leaps of logic as you did shows a general lack of epistemic foundation to one's thoughts, but I'd rather not get into that here.

Perhaps you have trained in Krav Maga for a long time, or perhaps you have not. In the end I have insufficient facts to disprove what you say. When Moni has his "proof" from the IDF, I hope the debate ends. You also need to explain Avi's endorsement of Moni. Other than that I have no dispute with you. With my background in martial arts -- training in the most sought after systems in the world -- I can say that Moni's techniques work. So I do not feel like a travesty is happening. If the worst case scenario is true and Moni Aizik turns out to be a fraud with regard to his IDF stories, it can still be stated with certainty that the techniques in CKM do work and will save the lives of those who learn them.

LT. Aran, I respect you as a member of the IDF and I will not question whether or not you are an officer. I could care less whether or not you believe that I am an officer in the USAR. The soldiers I serve in leading know the truth. As an ethnic Jew, I appreciate your defense of the land of our people given to us by God. I hope you soldiers will do something concerning the Temple Mount some day. Hopefully you will give to the IDF another 10 years of service and grow in your knowledge of self-defense. As for me, I will say that for the time being Moni has not been proven as a fraud. I have read so much libel against him and heard plenty of slander, but I'm still waiting for the concrete proof from you folks. In the meantime, I will wait for Moni to furnish proof of his claims. If he never does, I at least trust that the techniques he teaches do in fact work. At worst, if his stories are fraudulent, he should lower his prices!

I have but one more thing to say. Claiming that I am defending Moni for selfish reasons is plain foolish. You know nothing about me. Moni has only cost me money. I have not made a single cent teaching CKM. I gain nothing from Moni's "lies" if they are in fact lies. So please, stay away from personal attacks and insults. Represent us a little better, please.

1LT. Feinstein, USAR —Preceding unsigned comment added by 163.150.197.234 (talk) 20:32, 17 December 2009 (UTC)

LT Feinstein, LT Aran,

Shalom! Thank you both for your information and experiences. Please remember that here at Wiki we must respect each editor and that our opinions must be based on verifiable sources. It would be good if Moni offered evidence - I will mark this article as "Disputed" until we have a statement from Moni. Peace and Seasons Greetings to you both! jmcw (talk) 09:21, 18 December 2009 (UTC)

1LT Feinstein,

Sir, your saying that meeting Moni and having the opportunity to interact with him is validation that he is not a lier? I'm willing to bet you that each and every individual who invested into Bernard Madoff's scheme will first tell you that "I met the guy and he seemed legitimate, nice enough, and professional and that's why I gave him my money!" As would any individual who was scammed by any other con artist.

In fact, I have yet to meet, see, or hear of one single individual who was scammed and said "well, I met the guy and he seemed like a dishonest, lying, conniving, scumbag. So I decided to believe him and invest in him!"

Scammers like Moni Aizik know very well how to exploit and take advantage of the interpersonal human factor that people will reassure themselves they are not being fooled if they 'believe' the individual scamming them is a 'great guy'. It's so funny how grown, life experienced men can still fall for that trick!

You say there are no ways of verifying anything here! Do a google search on Krav Maga, look at all the legitimate and Israeli government recognized organizations out there. They are all competing with one another, and yet each and every single one of them have the exact same accounts of what Krav Maga is, who it's founder is, the system's history, and it's techniques. Not one single Krav Maga organization in the world, even those run by individuals who were top Krav Maga instructors in the IDF during Moni Aizik's time of service know who the hell Moni Aizik is, the individual who supposedly co-founded our system and has been teaching all of our units for the last 30 years!!. Not one single Krav Maga organization out there shares the same historical accounts of real Krav Maga with CKM.

This sir should be, at the very least, a point that would make any individual with common sense say to themselves that something doesn't make sense here.

"I have no way to verify anything you said, anymore than many of Moni's detractors have an ability to deny his claims. How do I know you were present during Human Weapon filming?"

Here you go sir: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wvYtktAbXjk e-mail this guy and ask him who I am. Since you saw the Human Weapon episode, you'll clearly recognize that the room he is standing in is in fact the Krav Maga training room at the IDF counter terrorism school which trains all the IDF special units. The room that Mr. Moni aizik, co-founder of the IDF Krav Maga system and he who trains all the IDF's special units, has never set foot in once in his entire lifetime.

"My arguments were still valid in my post, and you did nothing to refute them other than saying that you were there during filming and that you are in the IDF. Once again, that means nothing to me unless I can verify it."

Well, sir, the fact that you, a supposed LT in a professional military organization, believes that an individual who served in a military organizations special forces cannot acquire his military discharge certificate, but rather has to go plead with that organization to write him a letter claiming he served, makes your military claims useless to me.

But you know what, that's okay, there's no need to continue debating this issue. Moni claims he will get a letter from the IDF, great, I can't wait to see that letter, and once I see it, I'll officially check it through what ever the signing authority on that letter is, and, if it it is in fact legitimate, I'll gladly retract all my comments about Mr. Moni Aizik I have made here.

So, Moni asked the IDF for this letter in October 2009. November 2009. December 2009. January 2010. 4 months and nothing yet, that's okay, we'll wait.

1LT Yuval. Dmmotp (talk) 09:54, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

1LT Yuval,

I was wondering if there was a way that I could talk to you off the record (maybe through e-mail). Recent events have got me questioning certain things and I would like get a few things you said verified. If what you say about Moni is true, I will be the first to write on this discussion board that I was wrong. Let me know if this is possible.

By the way, you should really stop taking personal shots at me in this. The U.S. military is the most professional in the world, but even in it 1LTs are junior officers. There is a great amount that I do not yet know about the military. My particular AOC (or MOS) makes me a staff officer at a low rank since people usually do not become staff officers until the rank of MAJ. So I am still learning a lot. If I were a CPT or a MAJ I could understand a person being less forgiving of military ignorance. I, as a fellow officer, would rather give you the benefit of the doubt on things. For example, you said you have served the IDF for 10 years. In the U.S. Army, if you were still a 1LT after 5 years, you most likely would be separated from the Army for poor performance. In fact, it is inconceivable that man would be less than a MAJ after 10 years. However, you did not see me write, "This must mean you are a useless officer and probably are lying about military service." Instead, I give you the benefit of the doubt. I figure instead that you probably did 6 or 7 years as an enlisted soldier first and then later became an officer. I automatically assume a respectful conclusion about you first. Only if you continued to say things that don't add up would I begin to start accusing you of being an "ate up" officer. To be honest, that is where I am kind of at with Moni right now. There are some things that are not adding up. But before making a conclusion, I need more information. So please give me a little respect. The more professional you present yourself in disagreements, the more believable you will be. The fact that you are posting on this discussion board demonstrates that you expect people to believe you. Help yourself out with this by showing a little more grace to those who might not instantly agree with you.

Do get back to me, because the questions I have are very important regarding Moni Aizik. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 163.150.215.222 (talk) 19:48, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

1LT Feinstein —Preceding unsigned comment added by 163.150.215.222 (talk) 19:39, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

P.S. I am adding this comment on the 19, Jan 2010. I have heard from a reliable person inside the CKM organization with much closer access than myself that Moni did in fact get the letter from the IDF, however, there are questions I have about it (detailed questions). Thus, with what I know I need to pick 1LT Aran's brain a little bit. If it turns out Aizik did invent or fabricate his IDF stories, I will gladly admit it here. You can find the website I am connected through at http://www.ckmvictorville.com/ Click the instructor's tab, and my info is at the bottom. E-mail my boss (head instructor), and he will forward it to me. Thanks. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 163.150.213.134 (talk) 19:53, 19 January 2010 (UTC)

New Information February 2010

There are claims of new proof about Monis military career. Due to Wikipedias policy on the Biography of Living Persons Wikipedia:BLP, let us wait until we have sources from a reliable third party before changing the article. A blog [2] is never good enough. Thanks! jmcw (talk) 17:58, 15 February 2010 (UTC)

February 2010, 5 months, almost 6 months have already passed since Moni has acquired this "letter from the IDF" proof, and he still has not posted it for everyone to see that he is not a fraud. We are still waiting.

P.S. Mr. Jmcw37, there is no proof, just so you know, it is just another one of Moni's many stalling and diverting methods. Dmmotp (talk) 05:44, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

I do not disagree, I do not agree. Reliable sources for a Biography of a Living Person (WP:BLP) are required. This is an important legal point in Wikipedia. I would be pleased to see a good quality reference and to end this uncertainty. jmcw (talk) 15:24, 28 February 2010 (UTC)

This is 1LT Feinstein. I posted about 2 weeks ago that I now know Moni is a fraud, and I made a public apology to LT. Aran and the IDF. The Wiki moderator deleted it. You are right. Moni's letter is fake and so on. You can go on the history page and find what I wrote -- it will be mid February. I have the audio copy of Moni's phone call where he admits to fabricating his history. In it, he says that he only met Lichtenfeld once, he did not officially teach CKM to the IDF, he hasn't been to Israel in 12 years, and no units in the IDF use CKM at all. It is 1:45 minutes long, and is a recorded phone call between Moni, and his CKM Elite instructor team on Feb 7, 2010. 1LT Feinstein--163.150.207.203 (talk) 21:37, 2 March 2010 (UTC)

I am not a moderator - just a Wikipedia editor trying to follow the rules of Wikipedia. This recorded phone call is not an acceptable source for the biography of a living person WP:BLP. If it is transcribed into a reliable magazine, book or newspaper, it may be used in this article. jmcw (talk) 12:01, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

Sir, transcripts of this telephone conversation where Moni Aizik admits to fraud can been seen here; http://www.fakeselfdefenseinstructors.com/ —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dmmotp (talk • contribs) 15:19, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

From Wikipedia:Blogs_as_sources: Material about living persons available solely in questionable sources or sources of dubious value should not be used, either as a source or as an external link. Hopefully someone will make a case at the Advertising Standards Authority again and we will have a reliable source. jmcw (talk) 15:47, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

Shalom haver (which means hello my friend in Hebrew), we have been fighting an upward hill battle for the sake of the truth and it has been very exhausting and many times demoralizing seeing how many people still insist on believeing Moni even when his lies are exposed. I do not fault people for being human and making mistakes, and more than that, it takes a true man to admit he has made a mistake. You are a man of unwaivering character and ethics 1LT Feinstein, and I thank you for not turning your back on moral integrity. God bless you sir. 1LT Aran Dmmotp (talk) 05:29, 3 March 2010 (UTC)

Dead Link follow up (re Imi Lichtenfeld)

I deleted a dead link that dealt with Lichtenfeld. Even if dead, it was not helpful. That is, it was not clear if it was supporting the claim that Aizik worked with Lichtenfeld or was regarding Lichtenfeld's retirement. It seemed to support the retirement claim, but in fact Lichtenfeld simply retired from the IDF. In any event, here is a link from the British Krav Maga Association on the history of Krav Maga: http://www.krav-maga-bristol.org.uk/start-here/historyofkravmaga.html . This is based on the delete dead link. --S. Rich (talk) 16:53, 12 March 2011 (UTC)

Notability?

One reference to demonstrate notability? If that's the best we can do, this is headed to WP:AFD. – ukexpat (talk) 19:55, 17 January 2012 (UTC)