Talk:Mother 3/Archive 1

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Archive 1

Summer release?

"...is now slated for a summer 2005 release"

Summer in what country? Since it didn't say I removed the word 'summer' from the sentence. Masken 18:28, 26 August 2005 (UTC)

Merger With Earthbound 64

Do you think that we should merge Earthbound 64 with this? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.65.153.49 (talk • contribs) 16:31, 29 January 2006 (UTC)

Nope, Earthbound 64 has it's own production history and may be different than the game that is about to come out. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.108.14.239 (talk • contribs) 03:49, 15 February 2006 (UTC)

Screenshots

Itoi has given has six screens thus far, but rather than replace all three that are already at this page with the newest three with each revelation, I was hoping to take care of this in a more democratic manner if at all possible. Simply put, I would like to mix the best of both batches (not just in graphical quality, but in terms of overall presentation of a scene) into the three images here. If anyone has any objections, please feel free to change the images, but at least maintain an open discussion here. Charles M. Reed 19:30, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

Translation Credit

Any chance credit could be given to the translator(s) who made this information available? Specifically, Starmen.net's "Tomato." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.32.208.92 (talk) 04:44, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

Articles on Kumatora and Claus?

There are articles on Lucas, Hinawa, Flint and Duster, but not on Claus and Kumatora. Aren't those two major characters? Heck, Claus is Lucas's brother!

Anyone care to start an article on them?

--CGally81 03:52, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

An article already exists for Claus and Kumatora: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Claus_%28Mother_3%29 and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kumatora

All someone has to do is link his name on the Mother 3 page to that page. --PeanutCheeseBar 19:25, 5 Sep 2006 (EST)

US Release?

Does anyone know if this game will be released in the US, and when? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 168.170.204.50 (talk • contribs) .

I agree, this would be helpful to know. -- Voretus the Benevolent 21:15, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
No release date so far. -- ReyBrujo 21:32, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
Is it even planned? The article doesn't say anything. -- Voretus the Benevolent 21:47, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
No official word yet. If you ask me, it won't get translated. The Mother series is one of those extremely few series where the developer decides what to do. If Mr. Itoi wants a French release, I am sure Nintendo will do it automatically. However, one can always hope. -- ReyBrujo 22:00, 4 May 2006 (UTC)
It's really bizaree that there doesn't appear to be an international release planned, but Contact is getting such a release. Perhaps NOJ is adopting a wait-and-see approach?

(DrZarkov 07:40, 20 May 2006 (UTC))


Ness

This game has been out for almost 3 months and not a single place on the internet can you find out if Ness is even in this game. Well is he? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 205.168.216.231 (talk • contribs) .

If it is not in the article, and the article is up to date, then he is not there. -- ReyBrujo 02:56, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

Story

There's absolutely nothing about the story on this article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 205.168.216.217 (talk) 23:33, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Did you look under "plot"? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 199.126.137.209 (talk) 05:07, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Mother 2 connections

  • In a Japanese game magazine, Itoi made another reference, that people in Mother 3 talk about how the world of Mother 2 was ruined (Ness, Paula, and many people were all killed)

I'd like to see the source for that. If it's not there in a few days or so, I'll delete it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 199.126.137.209 (talk) 05:07, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Where's All The Information on this game?

It looks like all these punks who claim to know everything about the Japanese language can't even provide basic information for this game. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 70.89.165.90 (talk • contribs) .

Specifically, what information do you want? Dread Lord CyberSkull ✎☠ 07:24, 21 August 2006 (UTC)

Wii version?

http://ruliweb2.dreamwiz.com/ruliboard/read.htm?num=3515&table=game_nin02&main=nin

Is this real or not? 12.219.74.52 03:56, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Mr. Itoi has stated there won't be Mother 4, so I don't think there will be a Mother for Wii, other than the ones released for the virtual console system. -- ReyBrujo 11:04, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
But the pics are of Mother 3 for the Wii. 12.219.74.52 12:03, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
It's a mockup of Mother 3 on the Gamecube. Here is another article about the mockup.--Kenjoki 13:07, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Game scripts?

Should we by chance link to some places on the internet where translated and detailed game scripts can be found? Since the game has not been released in the US and is available in Japan, and is a very popular game, I think it will be imported a lot and so as a reference point, that would be good.

I am working on my own translation guide for the game myself currently, with pictures and etc. It isn't nearly done yet, but there are other translation guides out there and should we link to these things? AnujSuper9 00:17, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

Not really. Including a link will promote people include ten or twenty of their own scripts. Also, a full transcript of the game can be considered illegal in some countries, and per our external link guidelines, we should not link to them. -- ReyBrujo 04:15, 23 January 2007 (UTC)
Hm. Ok yeah, that makes sense. Thankyou. AnujSuper9 04:43, 23 January 2007 (UTC)

Mother 3 background

i have fond memories about previews of this game...i definitely think we should update with history of the promise of the game, leading up to its cancellation. Lockeownzj00 20:10, 11 August 2005 (UTC)

Agreed but we still need to provide source and information. Yoryx 09:05, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

Plot details

I'm playing the game in Japanese and don't speak it, so a lot of my plot summation is bare-bones. If anyone can expand on the Seven Needles and their connections to the crossdressers it would be much appreciated. In fact, anything to add to my start will be great. I also haven't finished the game, so my summary ends rather abruptly.


In the Plot section, it's claimed that Claus is killed by the Pig Army. I'm pretty sure Claus never died. There are at least two translations of the end area in the game, where Flint talks to Lucas - and in both of the translations, Flint never says anything anywhere near Claus dying.
Claus is shown face-down at the end of Chapter 1, but that doesn't mean he's dead. Unless someone can point out where exactly it's stated he dies - be it in game, or in an interview - that doesn't belong. --Kenjoki 12:04, 7 October 2007 (UTC)

Source on the Announcement of US Release?

"ANNOUNCEMENT: Mother3 has been confirmed to be released into the US as of November '07." This really sounds like wishful thinking to me. Unless there's a source, it should be deleted. And it's not even '07 yet! —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 67.54.252.41 (talk • contribs) .

Delete it. It's not confirmed. Yoryx 09:52, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

Characters

I added back the characters secrtion, which is the subject of a AFD or merge process, in order to save the content. Bearian (talk) 18:13, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

Merging

Why should we merge the two articles? There was no consensus in the AfD, and when the information was in this article it was horribly cluttered. -- Tenks (talk) 22:38, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

I agree, although one user took it upon himself to ignore the results of the AFD debate, not an uncommon practice on this site. PeanutCheeseBar (talk) 02:56, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

Ryuka's English Name

I know Starmen's translation is Lucas, but is that really official? I don't think we should use "Lucas", unless the name is official.

Lucas is named after a character in a French book & Claus is named after another character from that same book.Linkdude20002001 11:31, 20 May 2006 (UTC)
Is there any proof to this? Did Itoi comfirm it? if so, it should be noted on this page. 68.38.52.238 17:36, 20 May 2006 (UTC)

In an interview or somthing.Linkdude20002001 05:38, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

He's called Lucas on the Smash Bros Dojo. Case Dismissed. Forte X —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.25.65.193 (talk) 22:13, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

Doorknob

I doubt "The doorknob appears to have fallen off" hint's at Pokey's return. It's actually a running gag throughout the game, starting out with Flint's doorknob in chapter 1.--128.97.180.172 (talk) 05:24, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

Also, the rationale behind his 'return' seems to be a non canon apperance in Smash Bros Brawl. You really can't consider the two games as related in continuity, so it doesn't really suggest much. 24.140.55.164 (talk) 01:02, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

Tazmily or Tazumili?

I noticed that the spelling the English spelling of "Tatsumairi" on this page changed from "Tazmily" to "Tazumili" since the release of Smash Brothers Brawl. I know that Tazumili is how it was spelt in the English version of the game, but does it really have to be Tazumili? It apparently supposed to be spelt "Tazmily" according to the old Mother 3 (N64 version) page on Nintendo's Japanese site. It's, of course, no longer up, but it can still be seen using the Internet Archive. Here's a link to the page. http://web.archive.org/web/19980530122715/www.nintendo.co.jp/n01/n64/software/mother/index.html The sentence I'm talking about is "ちなみに、『タツマイリ』のスペルは、“TAZMILY”となります。" which means "By the way, the spelling of 『タツマイリ』 becomes "TAZMILY". I don't know why NoA decided to use 'Tazumili'". Nintendo Power even used "Tazmily" for EarthBound 64 back before the game was canceled. I think it should still be Tazmily. The Smash Brothers trophy descriptions were never 100% accurate. Anyway, what do other people think?Linkdude20002001 (talk) 05:42, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

If no one has any problem with it, I'm going to change all uses of "Tatsumairi" and "Tazumili" to "Tazmily" since Nintendo of America probably didn't know that "Tazmily" was the official English spelling when they went with "Tazumili". After all, they were going to use "Klaus" in the trophy desription for Lucas, but luckily they changed it to "Claus" for the actual release.Linkdude20002001 (talk) 16:47, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
Alright. Since no one has said anything, I'm going to change all variations to "Tazmily".Linkdude20002001 (talk) 22:42, 21 May 2008 (UTC)


The censored pre-final battle

I walked to this article hoping to find a clue about the censored part of the game where something invades the mind of Lucas/Claus (I don't know exactly who) and appears the nightmare of that character with such "eerie" and twisting concept (the character loses his clothes, his eyes, etc...). But, there is no clue here of about what on hell the DEV team "smoked" while doing this thing. Fortunatelly it was censored, but players can access the censored content by hacking the rom with a code... Sure there is no idea of why that scene is on the cartridge and what issue pushed it to developt it with that kind of detail and then censored it? If no one know of what I'm talking about, check the recorded scenes at this URL of youtube [1] Hope someone can solve me this enigma (and forgive me if I don't have an account...).--85.155.215.168 (talk) 20:02, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

It wasn't "censored", it was removed. It was an alternate final battle, likely involving Claus devolving into some Giygas-like entity, but the idea was scrapped. Instead they used the Masked Man battle that is currently in the game. BTW, the encounter isn't completely coded, so all there is in the rom are the backgrounds and sprites that were going to be used. 207.190.51.100 (talk) 19:16, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

No M3 for Virtual Console

Contrary to popular fan belief, Mother 3 will not be available for Nintendo Wii's Virtual Console.

I'm adding this here, because not only that it just not likely for GBA games to be in the Virtual Console, it provides false hope to fans. It dosen't make any sense either, I mean there are still TONS of GBA games on sale on store shelf and its still very much a lively product (unlike NES, SNES, N64, TGFX and Genesis; All which are featured in the VC). And Nintendo has made no such announcements regarding such a feat. So I hope that little tibbit will remain there as a reminder to those who think about it. Dragon DASH 02:31, 3 September 2006 (UTC)

And I'm removing it. Not because I think that it will be downloadable, because it really doesn't make sense for GBA games to be. However, it is not encyclopedic because: 1. Nintendo has not officially said anything either way. 2. You say here that it's not likely, but in the article it says explicitly that it won't be. "not likely" can be considered speculation. Besides, just how popular is this belief anyway (not that it really matters as my above points will still stand). If the subject is just left alone, there won't be any givings of false hopes or crushings of them, and there won't be any speculation on this article. 199.126.137.209 05:38, 3 September 2006 (UTC)


The real reason we wouldn't see GBA, GBC, or GB games on the virtual console is because we'd have to convert them to NTSC or PAL formats to be able to be displayed correctly on televisions.---WariovsWario

Correct. If Nintendo was capable of do that, we would see also Mother 1+2 in Wii.MagnusLordN (talk) 20:22, 18 June 2008 (UTC)
That is completely untrue. No conversion would be at all necessary. The only requirement would be that the emulator they write be capable of running at both 50Hz and 60Hz but that goes for all the VC emulators on the Wii. It's entirely possible for Game Boy, Game Boy Color and Game Boy Advance games to appear on the Wii. Whether Nintendo choose to do it or not is another thing entirely. eyeball226 (talk) 18:12, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

Removing International Demand section

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mother_3#Demand_for_an_international_release

I took at look at this and cannot see how this is really contributing to the article itself. I took it upon myself (I forgot to log in, I apologize for that) to remove it then saw that someone quickly undo the change.

I'm not familiar with the policy (and unsure of how to go about finding these policies) but I have to argue that this section really has no place in the article. Yoryx (talk) 21:40, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

I would think it would factor into the development side of things. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.113.60.50 (talk) 07:59, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

Fan translation

I am sorry, but the fan translation is not notable. I know those people have good faith and believe they can influence Nintendo into releasing it in the western scene, but as I usually say, first notability, then Wikipedia. That is why I am prodding Mother3.org. There are a lot of efforts to translate different titles, but unless the patch is finished and was accepted, there is no need to mention, much like the petitions online asking for a translation. -- ReyBrujo 03:10, 28 August 2006 (UTC)

I hate to disagree with you, but I believe that the fan translation IS notable; in fact, I don't see where you draw a correlation between the game's fan translation and release over in America, as the two concepts are mutually exclusive. Take into consideration the fact that the fan translation is being created because:

  • Fans of the series that aren't natively Japanese are metaphorically dying to play this game.
  • There is no solid word one way or the other from Nintendo concerning the release of Mother 3 over in the USA, and people want SOME way to play it and understand it.

I would agree that it would be non-notable if Nintendo had already long confirmed a release in America, but seeing as how there's no guarantee that the game will make it, and the fact that the fans are primarily relying on ONE fan translation in particular (since few have publicly stated undertaking their own translation projects), then you have to give credit to the one site/group that is making the effort to translate. In short, this is the reason why one group has opted to translate (based on there being no guarantee) and another group is petitioning in hopes of release over here.

Though the two really don't relate, you cannot have one without the other; each serves as a means for the fans to try and play the game in a manner they can comprehend. -- PeanutCheeseBar 22:24, 03 September 2006 (EST)

There are two things to be considered: Is the effort notable? And is the group trying to translate the game notable? Yes, the effort can be considered notable. There are groups working in a patch, there are online petitions, there are fan sites trying to recruit translators, etc. However, the group trying to translate it is no better than the unknown guy at a basement trying to translate the game by his own once you consider a. the group has not released another translation before; b. the site of the group is pretty new; c. the translation is not finished. So, I agreed with having a mention that there are efforts to translate the game, but not to individualize an effort (Mother3.org) over other unknown ones. -- ReyBrujo 02:50, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
The difference between the group and "the guy in the basement" is that the group has publicly stated their intentions to translate the game for an English-speaking audience, and the "guy" is most likely doing it for his own purposes or edification. Though the group may not have been notable before this grand undertaking, they certainly warrant mention on this page now simply because they are the most closely watched group making an effort. If the translation project ceases, then by all means they can be removed; however, seeing as how the progress of this group is continually being closely monitored by individual fans and fan communities alike, it's something akin to a slap in the face to say they're not notable; any visit to the Mother 3/EarthBound boards at Starmen.net, IGN, or even GameFAQs is proof enough of just how much these people are anticipating the patch. They certainly don't deserve their own Wiki entry because this is the only notable or known endeavor of theirs to date, but since they are the primary source and hope of most of the people who wish to play the game in English, I say they need to stay. -- PeanutCheeseBar 10:53, 04 September 2006 (EST)
I am sorry, but they are a small group that just started. They are nobody to be named. It is already too much that they are pointed from Wikipedia article to their site to have them named as well. If they are really going to finish the translation, there is no harm in waiting until they have done something. Until then, it is non notable vaporware. -- ReyBrujo 17:30, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
Just started?!? They've been working on the project since at least April 30th (verifiable if you visit the screenshots section of their website), which is ten days after the game was released; you can hardly say they "just started", as they've been working on it since the game came out over 4 months ago! Between leaving them in and taking them out, there's more harm in taking them out simply for the fact that anyone who visits the Mother 3 Wiki page may not take notice or even know about the project otherwise; you need to leave these things in to "idiot-proof" it, as I'm sure not everyone bothers to check out the links at the bottom of each article. Once again, if the project is cancelled, THEN you can remove any mention or reference to them. Things are fine the way they are now, and should be left as such. -- PeanutCheeseBar 15:53, 04 September 2006 (EST)
Should someone mention the recent announce,ent of starmen.net doing a translation? If mother3.org is credible, then they definatly are. -- Barrylocke 17:53, 13 November 2006 (EST)
I'm sorry ReyBrujo but your statement is a) ignorant and b) uninformed. If you go to the translation team website to see the list of people involved in the project, search their past projects and you'll see that they are just more than a bunch of "basement workers." Please do the research before opening your mouth. *Rockwell Yoryx 09:02, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
He was talking about Mother3.org, not the new Unifed Translation (mother3.fobby.net) which is a combination of some of the translators and hackers at M3.org, Starmen's Tomato, and other ridunkulously famous hackers and translators such as Demi of Neo Demiforce, Ghideon Zhi of Aeon Genesis, and harmony7, formerly of RPGe.
I'd say that's noteworthy enough. Though I think the mention of the translation should be at best minimal on the Mother 3 page itself. Either that or moved to the Starmen.net article, as Tomato appears to be running the show this time around, and running it well I might add.Pauyasfyla 05:07, 3 October 2007 (UTC)
If they ever finish translating the game, it may be included provided a reliable reference exists (in example, CNN or BBC making an article stating how a translation was done). Otherwise, it is just fancruft. And Yoryx, understand that Wikipedia has its own set of rules, and what may be the most important news for you may not for others. And just as a side note, I own Mother 3, and would be really happy about having an English translation, but I understand Wikipedia priorities, and a fan translation is not. -- ReyBrujo 01:21, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
The part that is quoted as "Ben "Yahtzee" Croshaw said in his Super Smash Bros. review about Lucas being in it "Oh and thanks Nintendo for putting in a character from Mother 3, A game your never going to fucking release outside Japan despite that I can bet more people will play it then Mario Kart""

I took this part of the fan translation part out because it has no source to back it up, it's grammar is atrocious, and the "reviewer" is from starmen.net which also makes it a biased statement. WariovsWario 01:21, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

I took out the quote about Bhildorff. It just seems like he was focusing more on Zelda and games in general than just Mother 3. It doesn't explain anything at all about why Nintendo hasn't localized this game other than that localizing requires understanding of different languages. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.75.19.94 (talk) 14:52, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

I've been following the fan translation at mother3.fobby.net and it's near completion. I think it's rather notable by now. If it were some kid on a forum saying that he's planning on doing it by himself I wouldn't think it was worth mentioning, but this seems a little more significant by now. Even if Nintendo releases Mother 3 in other territories and the translation team does what it says it'll do - that is, stop translating and not release their work - I still think it's worth mentioning because they're so damn close. --Thaddius (talk) 13:22, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

It's done, now what? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.174.26.22 (talk) 17:54, 17 October 2008 (UTC)

The fan translation, as 128.174.26.22 said, is now completed. You can get it from Fobby.net. I'm not altogether sure if it's reached "notable" status YET, but there's always the chance it WILL relatively soon. Mother seems to have a sort of "cult following" here in the United States, after all. ~ Josephine Lithius (Info|Chat|Edits) 17:41, 18 October 2008 (UTC)
What happens now is people will keep putting an item about the fan translation in the article, and idiots will keep removing it. You simply cannot discuss Mother 3 in the US without mentioning its lack of release. Now that the patch is ACTUALLY OUT, it's no longer accurate to say that the existence of a fan translation isn't notable by Wikipedia's standards. It's been reported on Ars, Kotaku, and other places relevant to the gaming community. Then again, what do I know? MancXVI (talk) 02:50, 21 October 2008 (UTC)
I agree. If the translation patch isn't notable, then Mother 3, as an English Wiki page shouldn't exist. Info about fan translation exist on countless other video game articles.Father McKenzie (talk) 03:37, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

Deleting the translation parts, reliable source is ridiculous.

The source posted doesn't even remotely follow wiki standards, Deleting. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.164.48.191 (talk) 21:56, 19 October 2008 (UTC)

Please sign your posts That said, I'm not sure I follow you. Could you explain how a patch itself doesn't follow wiki standards as a citation for a translation patch? How can it not be reliable when it is the topic discussed, and is there, undeniably. I'm not saying it's notable (yet, although starmen.net as a whole is, being referenced by Nintendo Power itself.) I'm just not understanding where you're coming from. BrainDance (talk) 00:35, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

Well, if you want notability, here's a start, Joystiq and Kotaku both covered the patch coming out. Complaining about notability in this circumstance reeks of both grasping for straws and just someone trying to stir something up on the Wiki for their own fun, not for the actual functionality of the Wiki. And what does it mean for a source to "not follow wiki standards?" Ramrod? (talk) 07:21, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

Wikia link

Whether Wikia may be adequate to include, this one is not. Having seen the Wikia, it is very bad - it has few editors, a significant level of original research, and an administrator who protects articles to preserve his or her ideal version. - The New Age Retro Hippie used Ruler! Now, he can figure out the length of things easily. 19:43, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

Fair enough, but note that the OR rule is an arbitrary one that obviously does not apply to outside sites. Restored your edit. MrZaiustalk 01:28, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

The guy's name

Since it seems to be a point of contention on this article, I thought I'd get it established once and for all. Is the guy named Fasaad or Yokuba? Larrythefunkyferret (talk) 03:07, 21 December 2008 (UTC)

Yokuba. Fassad is only used in the fan translation. It's still a good translation and a good name for him, but not an official one. - The New Age Retro Hippie used Ruler! Now, he can figure out the length of things easily. 04:41, 21 December 2008 (UTC)

So the use of Fassad comes from the fact that the only proper English translation (official or otherwise) uses it. I'll check the guidelines on which should be used, since it is unofficial. Out of curiosity, does anyone know why the translators changed his name? Larrythefunkyferret (talk) 05:39, 22 December 2008 (UTC)

Well, in a page listing details of the translation, it was said that they were trying to decide whether to stick with Yokuba or go with Fassad. They chose Hinawa because she was called that on her sticker in Brawl, but because Yokuba has no presence in English, they chose to change it. - The New Age Retro Hippie used Ruler! Now, he can figure out the length of things easily. 05:49, 22 December 2008 (UTC)

That is weird, but I'll go with it. On a related note, I'm having trouble finding the policy page on this subject, but I will lean toward the Official Japanese over the Unofficial English, until someone can show me definitively either way. If the question starts driving me nuts, I know a guy I can ask. Larrythefunkyferret (talk) 07:21, 22 December 2008 (UTC)

If it's causing this much confusion/confrontation, I'd argue that there's no practical reason not to it include it here, at least in passing. Hippie: You suggested above that you had a source which, though not necessary unless we discuss the translator's motives, would be nice to have (statements of fact and all that). Can you dig it back up? MrZaiustalk 02:55, 26 December 2008 (UTC)
That's creation of his name, it has nothing to do with the name's notability. And the source is on Starmen.net's Mother 3 notes at the mother3 translation page. - The New Age Retro Hippie used Ruler! Now, he can figure out the length of things easily. 02:57, 26 December 2008 (UTC)

Noone's said word one about notability and, in this particular context, it's not really pertinent - You don't need to separately establish notability of every minor point about a notable topic, and the fan translation certainly meets WP:NOTE and, were it necessary (it isn't), would not be prevented from splitting off. It's just good writing, especially when such a significant portion of the readers that it is reflected in multiple anon edits are expressing some level of confusion over the character's proper name. That said, couldn't find more than a forum post on the Starmen.net - Do you happen to remember more specifically where it was at? MrZaiustalk 04:25, 26 December 2008 (UTC)

The event that it was translated is not sufficient to make "Fassad" an acceptable alternate name for Yokuba. And: [2] - The New Age Retro Hippie used Ruler! Now, he can figure out the length of things easily. 04:34, 26 December 2008 (UTC)

Not at all sure what you mean by "acceptable" - We are not keepers of some third party canon. This is an encyclopedia that can freely discuss deviations from the original in the fan translation, within reason and where good writing and answering the questions held by the reader allow. MrZaiustalk 05:11, 26 December 2008 (UTC) Implemented here with primary sources that make "descriptive claims, the accuracy of which is easily verifiable" per WP:OR. MrZaiustalk 06:56, 26 December 2008 (UTC)

Also, that site will apparently also discuss some development things, such as that New Pork City was to be New Pork Island, the seventh Magypsy was to be normal, etc. That'll certainly help the Development section. - The New Age Retro Hippie used Ruler! Now, he can figure out the length of things easily. 07:19, 26 December 2008 (UTC)

Magypsies gender

Just throwing this out there - can anyone think of a way to stop all these people changing the magypsies to 'girls' or 'women'? I really don't know if it's vandalism or cluelessness... Luminifer (talk) 23:05, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

We could leave a note stating that Magypsies are genderless, and that some identify themselves as women (for example, Ionia's battle text calls uses her and she), while others call themselves him and he. - The New Age Retro Hippie used Ruler! Now, he can figure out the length of things easily. 23:08, 9 January 2009 (UTC)

Starmen.net

There's a contention over the usage of Starmen.net in this article. I believe I've provided suitable evidence for reliability, so I believe that the opposition to provide suitable evidence against. - The New Age Retro Hippie used Ruler! Now, he can figure out the length of things easily. 20:17, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

If you have, it hasn't been explained here, and most of the mentions above are primarily about forum posts and a user named "Tomato". That said, when using it as an archivist and citing scanned and reproduced articles on it ala archive.org, cite the original source and just give the Starmen.net URL. Those aren't being contested (assuming I'm remembering the right site). MrZaiustalk 01:55, 22 January 2009 (UTC)
It was explained at WP:VG, actually. My argument was that Starmen.net has editorial oversight and no reason to assume it's not reliable, and thusly, should be considered reliable until a strong argument against it can be found. - The New Age Retro Hippie used Ruler! Now, he can figure out the length of things easily. 02:21, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

Story trimming.

For anyone who's not beaten the game: Spoilers will occur in this discussion.

Preferably, this discussion will be amongst people who have beaten the game, but people who don't mind being spoiled are free to participate.

This discussion is to figure out what must be mentioned for the Story section to be appropriately concise, but not too bloated (as it is now). - The New Age Retro Hippie used Ruler! Now, he can figure out the length of things easily. 09:51, 25 January 2009 (UTC)

A while back, I did a revision of this summary based on one that someone had previously posted that was a bigger monster than this has become. A few days after I posted it, it was altered and the plot tag was removed. I have copied that revision of the summary to my sandbox. I will deny vehemently that it is perfect, but I believe that it contains all the neccessary data a Mother 3 virgin would need to understand the story. I say this as a Mother 3 virgin. I invite y'all to alter this any way you want, with the ultimate goal being to come up with a decent-size and decent-coverage summary. Larrythefunkyferret (talk) 08:19, 26 January 2009 (UTC)
I have some consensus-building questions. Can we all agree that the story section is too long, and needs trimming? Do you all like the sandboxed version? What do people want to cut out, or keep in? Bearian (talk) 19:03, 26 January 2009 (UTC) Does the gameplay section also need copyediting or trimming? Bearian (talk) 19:07, 26 January 2009 (UTC)
I'm not sure if I want that version, but the current version is trimmed down mostly. I'm not sure if the sandboxed version is "long" enough. - The New Age Retro Hippie used Ruler! Now, he can figure out the length of things easily. 19:07, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

My contention is that the version in the sandbox satisfies the plot tag while at the same time hitting all of the important story points. I don't think anyone will disagree with the former, but as a Mother 3 virgin, I could easily be wrong about the latter. That's why I put it on my sandbox and made the link; so that anyone that knows the story intimately (like you, Mr. Hippie) can expand it within reason, putting in important plot points that I overlooked. That's how it usually works with my revisions. Larrythefunkyferret (talk) 06:08, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

I used your version as a point of reference, and while my version is bigger, I don't think it goes into excess. - The New Age Retro Hippie used Ruler! Now, he can figure out the length of things easily. 07:05, 27 January 2009 (UTC)
I think the sandbox version is OK, but needs a few changes - a mention of the White Ship, and an elaboration on the Pigmask attack. Otherwise I think that Retro Hippie's version might be too long and detailed.--ZXCVBNM [TALK] 21:29, 27 January 2009 (UTC)
I think it's mostly just the "history of the world" thing. - The New Age Retro Hippie used Ruler! Now, he can figure out the length of things easily. 21:46, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

Thank you, folks, for editing cooperatively. Bearian (talk) 15:29, 30 January 2009 (UTC)

Free use images?

I haven't been able to find any free use images that would fit in with this article, like a capture of Itoi that we could put in the Development section. Some ideas for potential images...

  1. Shigesato Itoi portrait in Development
  2. A picture of the Mr. Saturn toys being made in the Mother 3 in other media section
  3. An image relevant to "Demand for an international release"
  4. Shogo Sakai portrait in the (to be made) Audio section
  5. Benimaru Itoh portrait in Nintendo 64 version
  6. Nobuyuki Inoue portrait in Development

Comments? - The New Age Retro Hippie used Ruler! Now, he can figure out the length of things easily. 02:25, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

Split

Well, here's the discussion page. We really have three options here:

  1. Split to Development history of Mother 3
  2. Split to EarthBound 64
  3. Or trim the article, without losing any necessary content, enough that we don't need to split.

Two points though: If we do split to EarthBound 64, it'll be a harder one, but it may be pretty rewarding. But if we do do this, should we include plot and gameplay sections? And if so, do we cover similar content to that which is in this article's gameplay and plot section? Anyway, this may certainly be an option, because as A Man In Black said, EB64 is a bit too prominent in this article, having information on it scattered around - some in development, some in setting.

The other point is that we may not even need a split, that maybe there's some fluff we can remove (for example, I trimmed a couple kb by removing the "ref names" for some of the things not reused). Comments? - The New Age Retro Hippie used Ruler! Now, he can figure out the length of things easily. 17:28, 5 February 2009 (UTC)

I'd go for splitting to Earthbound 64. The section on that is getting way too big, and it will probably only get bigger. Notability shouldn't be a problem and Earthbound 64 article. As for creating an article on development history, I don't think the development section as a whole is getting too large, only the Earthbound 64 section. Kuro ♪ 00:38, 6 February 2009 (UTC)
There's only a paragraph of development info for Earthbound 64, I wouldn't call it "big", and the plots and characters are mostly the same. It just feels pointless to have an article on a previous version of a game that was cancelled, when that can be integrated into the article. I think trimming makes the most sense, maybe a peer review will help too (if anyone ever responds that is).--ZXCVBNM [TALK] 04:56, 6 February 2009 (UTC)
Eh? There's five paragraphs of info for EarthBound 64. And if we do split it, we can consider making an impressions section, because I'm sure we could scrounge up impressions of it (especially for the Spaceworld '99 demo). - The New Age Retro Hippie used Ruler! Now, he can figure out the length of things easily. 05:03, 6 February 2009 (UTC)
Oh, sorry, I meant one *section* of information. 5 paragraphs isn't a lot in Wikipedia. Plus, nobody knows the gameplay because nobody GOT TO PLAY IT. It has no boxart, release date, or even reviews outside of the preview impressions. It's not a full game deserving of an article.--ZXCVBNM [TALK] 05:10, 6 February 2009 (UTC)
Actually, it was playable several times. An article only needs to be well-sourced and notable, it doesn't need to be released. Star Fox 2, Super Mario 128, Chrono Break, StarCraft: Ghost, Sonic X-treme, Chrono Resurrection (heck, this one's a cancelled fangame!), etc. - The New Age Retro Hippie used Ruler! Now, he can figure out the length of things easily. 05:26, 6 February 2009 (UTC)
Heh, I didn't realize there were that many cancelled games with articles. Well, if an abandoned trademark can have an article, by all means, go ahead and make an Earthbound 64 article.--ZXCVBNM [TALK] 05:49, 6 February 2009 (UTC)
Well, we're certainly not saying we should do it, just that it's an option. I'm not going to split unless I think it has to be done. - The New Age Retro Hippie used Ruler! Now, he can figure out the length of things easily. 05:54, 6 February 2009 (UTC)
Well, on both:
  1. Development history - if we made this, should we include some information on the characters that is found in Characters of Mother 3, as well as some information from Setting?
  2. EarthBound 64 - Should we separate as if it were like any other cancelled game, with gameplay, development, story, characters, etc.?
Also, if anyone wants to work on either of these, here you go: User:A Link to the Past/EarthBound 64, User:New Age Retro Hippie/Development history of Mother 3 - The New Age Retro Hippie used Ruler! Now, he can figure out the length of things easily. 02:13, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

The Earthbound 64 section at this point only needs some well placed trimming to meet standards, however, there are still loads of information that could be added into an independent article. I stumbled across great site today with loads more of information that could be put into a split article. It's way too much too put into the section of this article, but an independent article could handle it... Kuro ♪ 07:11, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

Well, I made a different direction and split the soundtracks into Discography of the EarthBound series (which I also did a split for the other soundtracks to it), lowering the kb of this article by three. Whether we need to split yet again is mostly reliant on how much EB64 information gets added. Just want to know, Zxcvbnm, are you on-board with splitting at all? I'm not trying to split for the sake of splitting, just that I think EB64 may have undue weight. I'm going to try to muster up some impressions so there's some third party coverage of it going on, you know? - The New Age Retro Hippie used Ruler! Now, he can figure out the length of things easily. 08:06, 8 February 2009 (UTC)

In a bot peer review, it suggests that a subpage be made, and I think EarthBound 64 may have enough to split, and when we hit GA, I'm going to try to split it. - The New Age Retro Hippie used Ruler! Now, he can figure out the length of things easily. 08:06, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

If you know you're going to split, split before a GA, not after. A key component of the Good Article criterion is stability, which gets blown out of the water when you know you're going to dramatically shorten the article immediately afterwards. MrZaiustalk 08:12, 11 February 2009 (UTC)
I suppose, I just thought we should wait until it's GA, which would basically mean it's done for the most part. But I guess we could split. Tomorrow I'll have to look for some impressions of it. - The New Age Retro Hippie used Ruler! Now, he can figure out the length of things easily. 08:45, 11 February 2009 (UTC)
Also, would you say this image constitutes free use (assuming the holder allows it to be used): [3] ? - The New Age Retro Hippie used Ruler! Now, he can figure out the length of things easily. 08:45, 11 February 2009 (UTC)
Oh, and just one more question, would you say that the Cancelled Super Famicom games category should be on EarthBound 64 or this article? - The New Age Retro Hippie used Ruler! Now, he can figure out the length of things easily. 08:48, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

Fear not reference hunters!

If you're having a hard time finding some good old fashioned references, or want a nice place to start looking, I strongly suggest you use the Earthbound Central Links page. Despite the name, this page actually has some great hidden gems in terms of Mother 3 sites. This page has links to many sites that have yet to be tapped for their potential. If you can't read Japanese (most of the pages the site links to are in Japanese), give Google Translate a shot, it's pretty useful. Kuro ♪ 07:04, 6 February 2009 (UTC)

Before I hit the hay I just found this walk through site for all three Mother games, but I wasn't sure if it was actually legitimate enough to reference though. It's actually very detailed and well organized. The walk throughs are under the "captures" section. Any thoughts? Night. Kuro ♪ 07:22, 6 February 2009 (UTC)
If you could, I really need sources for the soundtracks, but haven't the time to find them. - The New Age Retro Hippie used Ruler! Now, he can figure out the length of things easily. 19:18, 22 February 2009 (UTC)
And here's a list of references that we should change if we could:
  1. [4]
  2. [5], [6], [7], [8], [9], [10], [11], [12] - Replace with the interview information (issue #, page #)
  3. [13] - Perhaps replace with the trophy descriptions that mention Tazmily Village.
  4. [14], [15], [16], [17]
  5. [18]
  6. [19] - Replace with specific issues and page #s
  7. [20] - Replace with issue and page #
  8. [21] - The New Age Retro Hippie used Ruler! Now, he can figure out the length of things easily. 19:41, 22 February 2009 (UTC)

GA ready?

How far is this article from being nominated for GA? Larrythefunkyferret (talk) 07:41, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

Copyedit, fixing some Starmen.net-related citations (only those dealing with game content), removing citations that link to Starmen.net's gameguide. - The New Age Retro Hippie used Ruler! Now, he can figure out the length of things easily. 07:55, 27 February 2009 (UTC)

citation needed in "In other media"

Several elements from Mother 3 were featured in Super Smash Bros. Brawl for the Wii. Players could control Lucas,[citation needed] who was originally going to be featured in Brawl's predecessor Super Smash Bros. Melee.[citation needed] It also featured a location from Mother 3 and its primary antagonist, Porky, as a boss.[citation needed]

I don't see how you would site that, would linking to Super Smash Bros. Brawl Faq be sufficient? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.197.108.111 (talk) 21:45, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

All you have to do is find a reliable source that says that he's in it. I've seen many reviews that mention Lucas being in, or Hell, you could link to smashbros.com. But telling the reader that it's too inconvenient to ensure that every single fact in the article is true is not acceptable. - The New Age Retro Hippie used Ruler! Now, he can figure out the length of things easily. 23:43, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

I'm going crazy, or am I?

Under Fan translation, the following two sentences seem to have a slightly different font from everything else:

"The translation included minor deviations from the original, such as localization of place-names and puns. Few dramatic changes were made, but at least three characters were renamed: "Yokuba," loosely derived from the word..."

It looks like the spacing is different or something. I couldn't find any font changes in edit mode. Does anyone else see it? By the way, the font and spacing look fine here. And in the article, look how the word "translation" looks in the above sentence compared to the same word a line above it. Belasted (talk) 01:04, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

Nope, I don't see any difference. Maybe it's the use of foreign characters in your browser?--ZXCVBNM (TALK) 17:46, 5 April 2009 (UTC)
What the hell? It looks normal now. I swear I was completely sober and I looked it over several times and could clearly see spacing differences. Oh well. Belasted (talk) 21:36, 5 April 2009 (UTC)

Source cleanup

This article has whole paragraphs where sources are scattered throughout the paragraph, which makes them hard to read. AFAIK, they all have to be placed at the end of the relevant sentence/paragraph. This has to be fixed by someone.--ZXCVBNM (TALK) 03:58, 20 August 2009 (UTC)

Spoiler warnings

Why would the Final Battle section not be part of the overall plot and story sections. Development and plot are different sections, why would a summary of the FINAL BATTLE be there, and then continue to explain the ending. I know wiki pages always contain spoilers, but they are always organize to insure you don't read the entire story away without fair warning. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.194.4.7 (talk) 00:52, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

It's Wikipedia policy. If you don't want to get spoiled, don't look at the section period. It says "final battle", so...--ZXCVBNM (TALK) 04:38, 30 October 2009 (UTC)
I do think that a spoiler warning should be included, though, if the section doesn't suggest it. I personally think the outright banning of spoiler warnings is silly. Though I don't think this case merits them, since the section obviously deals with the development of the final battle and as such it has to be explained. - The New Age Retro Hippie used Ruler! Now, he can figure out the length of things easily. 05:37, 30 October 2009 (UTC)
The warning tags were removed from Wiki after a discussion that concluded that if someone visits the Wiki page they should be prepared for spoilers.--ZXCVBNM (TALK) 22:18, 30 October 2009 (UTC)
I know, I saw the discussion. I just only agree with it for most things, not all. - The New Age Retro Hippie used Ruler! Now, he can figure out the length of things easily. 22:32, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

american release

"More recently, Brownie Brown, its developer, stated that if asked by Nintendo, they would work on a DS remake." when Brownie Brown said that? Is there any hopes of an american release? --CaioNV (talk) 21:12, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

GA Review

GA toolbox
Reviewing
This review is transcluded from Talk:Mother 3/GA2. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Tezero (talk · contribs) 07:49, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

A girl I know is obsessed with this game, so I may as well learn a bit about it as I've only played EarthBound, and only up to Onett. Tezero (talk) 07:49, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

Good Article review progress box
Criteria: 1a. prose () 1b. MoS () 2a. ref layout () 2b. cites WP:RS () 2c. no WP:OR () 2d. no WP:CV ()
3a. broadness () 3b. focus () 4. neutral () 5. stable () 6a. free or tagged images () 6b. pics relevant ()
Note: this represents where the article stands relative to the Good Article criteria. Criteria marked are unassessed
  • All three fair-use images could use much bulkier FURs. This likely isn't a problem for GA, but I strongly discourage taking them to FA as is - er, as are.
  • What makes Technology Tell a reliable source?
  • Due to 1UP.com's on-and-off, abusive relationship with robots.txt, I'd recommend you take your own advice and WebCite those links.
  • I see that ThomasO1989 has edited the page a fair bit lately. Not to encourage page ownership, but are you okay with his changes, czar?
  • ThomasO1989 has also tagged the Gameplay section with a "confusing" tag. I haven't read it yet so I can't judge for now, but have you weighed his input for yourself?

That's all for now. Tezero (talk) 07:49, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

Regrettably, I have to agree about the Gameplay section. It comes off more like an academic discourse on the incorporation of multiple characters and changes from previous franchise entries in video games, using Mother 3 as an example, than a proper encyclopedic entry. I won't quickfail just for this, but I do want it fixed before I'll pass. I'd prefer the section to be rewritten entirely, but some glaring points follow:

  • "Mother 3 is presented in eight chapters with rotating player-characters including the protagonist's "cowboy father", the "family dog", an "inept thief", and "abused monkey"" - So is the protagonist not playable? How large is the party? Why are these descriptions in quotes? - it suggests equivocation in your understanding of the characters. Actually, why isn't the protagonist named in this section? Again, I completely understand the desire to approach this from an out-of-universe perspective, but only to the point where the prose doesn't trip over its own detachment.
  • "Mother 3 begins with naming the members of the player-character's family along with questions of the player's favorite food and "thing",[3] and opens to a "pastoral forest village" soon interrupted by a forest fire and the Pig Mask Army, who impose police state-like conditions on the village.[2] With the fire's outbreak, the father ventures out to protect his family (twin sons Lucas and Claus and wife Hinawa), but the rest of the world is eventually implicated in the plot.[1] They set out to take down the Pig Mask Army.[4] Lucas, the game's hero, does not become prominent until the fourth chapter. The game features a lighthearted plot, with enemies like "partying ghosts" and "talking rope snakes".[5] Porky, a character from EarthBound, appears as the leader of the Pig Mask Army and is the game's main antagonist. In addition, other EarthBound characters, such as Dr. Andonuts and Mr. Saturn, also appear." - Why isn't this stuff in Plot? The cast of characters does need to be introduced better, but jamming plot details into Gameplay isn't the way to do that.
  • The second paragraph is better; it's more in line with what I expect from a GA gameplay section. At least, it's good until "Apart from this rhythm and combo mechanic, the battle system is similar to that of its predecessor." What's the predecessor's battle system like? Remember, not everyone reading this has played EarthBound.
  • "There is no need to grind for experience and it has no random battles" - First of all, this should start off with a "However" or something of the like as its predecessor does have those things. The information is also lacking, though - why isn't there a need to grind for experience? I think of this as one of the central, love-it-or-hate-it JRPG mechanics, and I'm curious as to how the genre might work without it. Imagine reading a Pokémon game article that simply states that you can change your party as needed (which is unusual for a JRPG) without giving a brief overview of how the PC and Day Care systems work - that's how I feel reading this.
  • " and lets the player see their magic "PSI power" abilities" - Viewing your abilities probably isn't a necessary gameplay detail, but why isn't there anything on the abilities themselves and their use in battle? And do they have uses outside battle, like HMs, Rock Smash, Secret Power, and Softboiled do in Pokémon?
  • "While Mother 3's music is both similar in tone to its predecessors and completely new, it features similar sound effects." - By "completely new" do you mean it isn't recycled wholesale, or that the style is somehow new? Also, this bit probably doesn't belong in Gameplay.

If you're up to rewriting this, which I encourage - especially if you're shooting for FA - I'd recommend a structure like the following:

  • Paragraph 1: It's a top-down JRPG, there's an overworld, you explore towns with your team of characters, yada yada yada.
  • Paragraph 2: There are battles, they're not random (with an explanation of the conditions under which you do encounter battles - is it like in Pokémon Colosseum where you only fight other Trainers, or like in Dragon Ball Z: Buu's Fury where you can see the enemies on the overworld before fighting them?), this is how the battle system works, this is how items work, this is how experience points/leveling work (again, how is this the case without grinding? Or is a different system used entirely?).
  • Paragraph 3: Your team consists of such-and-such a number of characters, they change with different events in the story, characters do/don't return once they leave, here are examples of the characters and how they differ in and out of battle.

Stuff like items and saving (can you save anywhere?) - work in wherever you want; I'm not picky. Tezero (talk) 21:47, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

@Tezero: I can take up the task of rewriting it. I have some draft work in one of my sandboxes for the Gameplay and Plot sections. I'm pretty proficient at describing game play, but I'll definitely incorporate the structure you've proposed. --ThomasO1989 (talk) 23:09, 25 September 2014 (UTC)
ThomasO1989, don't feel tied to this structure if it doesn't suit you or your experiences of the game. I meant it only as an example - just make sure the basic gameplay points are covered in a sufficiently organized scheme. Tezero (talk) 23:34, 25 September 2014 (UTC)
Tezero Understood. I'm also doing some significant rewrites to the rest of the article as well, mostly trimming. A lot of the material is already covered in the main articles Development of Mother 3 and so on, so I'm cutting it back to summarize the important details, which I believe will make the article easier to read in general. --ThomasO1989 (talk) 04:56, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

Technologytell is the parent site of Gamertell. - New Age Retro Hippie (talk) (contributions) 01:24, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

Ah, okay. Sources check out, then. This should go on WP:VG/RS, though. Tezero (talk) 01:26, 26 September 2014 (UTC)

Here are some short replies: The gameplay section used as much as I could find in reliable sources, which is why it did not use direct names if the RS chose not to name those names. I thought the plot was short enough to summarize without its own section, as it's general practice to include plot within Gameplay if it's not big enough to split out. I agree that there is room for improvement in Gameplay, but I preferred to not dip into the primary sources. I suppose I'm not going to touch this section, though, if Thomas is preparing a draft elsewhere? I updated the FURs. I think TechTell's reliability has been addressed, and I thought I had already archived all the links that would allow it, but not 100% sure. And, no, I don't agree with a lot of the recent changes, but this isn't the first time. I don't agree that full sections need to be completely and passive-aggressively rephrased without discussion as they have been, especially as it appears to be a matter of personal style and structure and not of necessity (yes, save for Gameplay). I feel there has been very little consideration in this regard and would prefer before my time is so seemingly wasted in the future to be informed in advance that certain styles and editors are not welcome in certain spaces. czar ♔ 16:45, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

Keep in mind that reliable sources aren't going to mention everything about the game that's necessary for an informed overview of how everything works and ties together. It's perfectly okay to cite the manual, in-game text, or even the game itself, and increasingly so with time as this project seems to be gradually shifting toward more obscure articles that won't have a lot written about them. There are many reasons why secondary source authors might not mention certain points that have nothing to do with believing they're unimportant, e.g. the point wasn't related to their overall argument, they didn't think it'd affect how much the player would enjoy the game, they figured it was so obvious it wouldn't need explanation (this last one's especially the case for "classic" games). Tezero (talk) 17:18, 27 September 2014 (UTC)
Yep, might be missing some connecting details (e.g., the assumed mechanics, as you mention), but I'd add that other details too unimportant for any RS to mention are by definition too unimportant in the scope of the game. (That's the premise of verifiability and weight on WP.) Anyway, I can fill in the requested details with primary sources if Thomas is not already doing so in his draft. czar ♔ 17:32, 27 September 2014 (UTC)
To some extent this is the case, but what if most reviews went extremely in-depth about the item and equipment systems of a JRPG or, conversely, there wasn't a single one that even mentioned the release date or dimensional perspective (2D, 3D, 2.5D, isometric, etc.) of an indie? In fact, this happens sometimes, and it's not wrong for us to cover or not cover information as appropriate for a general but not excessive understanding of a topic. It's likely that you'll be able to find the pertinent information here with relative ease; just make sure you're keeping an eye on what readers will want to know. Tezero (talk) 17:46, 27 September 2014 (UTC)
I've explained my motives and my constructive criticism of the article to Czar on his talk page. Here is my current work on the Gameplay on Plot sections in my sandbox (ignore the other ongoing projects there). It is obviously incomplete and lacks sources, but you can see the direction I would like these sections to go in terms of prose. --ThomasO1989 (talk) 18:18, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

Are you still working on that sandbox draft, @ThomasO1989? If not, let me know, but I don't want to do duplicate work if you're planning to write it anyway czar ♔ 18:05, 2 October 2014 (UTC)

Sorry, I've been a bit busy with real life. I'll dedicate time to it this weekend. --ThomasO1989 (talk) 15:24, 3 October 2014 (UTC)
@Tezero, new gameplay and plot sections are in. Ready to take a look? czar ♔ 15:26, 11 October 2014 (UTC)
Find a citation for the last paragraph of Gameplay if you can. That being said, the page is looking much, much better, so I'll be passing this GAN now. Tezero (talk) 15:29, 11 October 2014 (UTC)

Confusing Gameplay section

The Gameplay section is a mess, so I've tagged it as confusing. It relies so heavily on third-party sources that it's compromising clarity and comprehensiveness, a clear example of WP:BLUE. It's not actually describing any gameplay at all-- it's regurgitating what sources say verbatim and isn't making an attempt to convey "in one's own words" what the gameplay or story is about-- it just isn't cohesive. For example, all places and characters should be named, but they aren't because the source used doesn't name them and instead refers to them nondescriptly as "inept thief" or "abused monkey" and so on, which means it's withholding important details from the reader. The section also switches mid-prose between Gameplay and story details. Citing the game itself is acceptable (esspecially when it comes to Gameplay and plot), but none of that is here. There are details that are not properly integrated into the main text and are just tacked on as "Notes." There is citation overkill-- I doubt that a citation is required to say that the game is single-player or the game uses two buttons (which is actually untrue). Also, "partying ghosts" and "talking rope snakes" are insignificant details in regards to the game's plot. This article is currently pending GA review, but this section, which I consider to be the most important for any video game article, is not even C quality. It needs to be significantly rewritten. --ThomasO1989 (talk) 14:49, 22 September 2014 (UTC)

As I've said in the GAN review, I don't disagree about how the Gameplay can be improved through adding primary sources. I should add, though, that it took me several days to reply because I am not okay with the tone of recent edits czar ♔ 18:27, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

New Gameplay section

I have rewritten the Gameplay section. I took cues from Chrono Trigger, EarthBound, Tezero's comments, and earlier revisions of the Mother 3 article to write it. I believe I have covered most of the basic ideas of the Gameplay, particularly regarding battles and the player's party. I did separate the plot details into its own section and did not remove them entirely. This section may need more sources if necessary. I have also provided a quote from the English fan translation as a source. If quotes from the fan translation aren't deemed reliable enough, we could ask Clyde Mandelin for the original Japanese and the raw translation; I'm sure he'll be happy to provide them. @Czar, Tezero, and New Age Retro Hippie: Would you mind looking over the Gameplay section and providing any feedback? --ThomasO1989 (talk) 23:15, 5 October 2014 (UTC)

I didn't think a separate plot section was necessary, but if it's happening and the current split section needs expansion, you could use the contents of the plot section that existed prior to my rewrite czar ♔ 00:04, 6 October 2014 (UTC)
As a rule, czar, the only game articles that shouldn't have plot sections are ones with minimal or nonexistent plots, e.g. Super Mario Bros., Pac-Man, Madden NFL 14. I can't think of any RPGs that would be better off without them, unless the Pokémon Stadium games count. Tezero (talk) 02:39, 6 October 2014 (UTC)
My understanding is that it has more to do with degree of complexity than existence (WP:VG/GL#Organization). So if a plot can be summarized with broad strokes without losing something vital, it can and should be. Yes, the Mother series games are known for their writing, but I'd argue that that means they're known for the writing's qualities (wittiness, humor) and not the minutiae of the plot or the stories. In fact, I'd argue that it's outside the article's scope (and furthermore, unhelpful) to have more than a few sentences of plot for M3, which is why I think it's fine to summarize within gameplay. Anyway, I also know you really like plots so I won't bark up the wrong tree but wanted to lay out my rationale. czar ♔ 02:50, 6 October 2014 (UTC)
I would actually argue that M3's plot is significantly more complex (compared to EB, whose article has a plot section) and is highly regarded by external sources, so I would see the need to develop the section further. In fact, one of the points brought up in the Reception section is the game's "twist ending," but the reader can't know what it is. Other aspects of the plot are hinted in the development section, but again, those aren't available to the reader here. In other words, the plot as it is now is a little too broad and some vital things are missing. While the guideline is 700 words, there should be some wiggle room if enforcing that guideline becomes strenuous. I agree with Tezero that the plot should be told in 700-1000 words. --ThomasO1989 (talk) 03:25, 6 October 2014 (UTC)
To clarify, I know I'm in the minority and that I don't have an audience here—just was elaborating on what I should have said the first time. I'm fine with however you want to handle it. czar ♔ 04:06, 6 October 2014 (UTC)
Before I comment on gameplay, I feel that having a more expansive plot section is valuable. Certain elements have exposure to English gamers (thanks to Brawl and spoilers), and like EarthBound, its notability is due to the writing more so than the game itself. It should be more condensed than it was in the original version of the section, though. - New Age Retro Hippie (talk) (contributions) 01:26, 6 October 2014 (UTC)
I can't remember where I saw it, but the general recommendation for VG plot sections is about 700 words, though it depends on the type of game, how much text it takes to explain certain things so the reader has enough context, etc. I would think 700-1,000 words would be sufficient for this game. Tezero (talk) 02:39, 6 October 2014 (UTC)
WP:VG/GL#What_is_appropriate.3F: "Plot sections, if necessary, should be no more than approximately 700 words to retain focus." czar ♔ 02:50, 6 October 2014 (UTC)

I just want to say that I'm not trying to just say "nope." I get that it's important to condense the plot, but I feel that it was done to too much an extreme. I'd like to find a happy medium. - New Age Retro Hippie (talk) (contributions) 04:44, 6 October 2014 (UTC)

I've redone the plot summary on this article twice, so I was about to ask how it could be improved, when I noticed that it's a lot shorter than I remember. It looks like it's 100 to 200 words, much less than the 700 word limit, and is really more of a plot setup than a summary. I haven't read the new gameplay section yet (I'm kinda surprised I missed the change, this article is on my watchlist) but I'm not used to getting my story information from the gameplay section. Just sayin'. Larrythefunkyferret (talk) 05:18, 6 October 2014 (UTC)
  • ✓ new plot's in czar ♔ 15:26, 11 October 2014 (UTC)

DYK nomination

{{Did you know nominations/Mother 3}} czar ♔ 16:49, 11 October 2014 (UTC)

Remove logo comparison

Per BRD, taking this here. I think the wooden/metal logo comparison recently restored should be removed—it doesn't pass the non-free content criteria as there is no extenuating call for their visual depiction when adequately explained in the prose. I didn't contest it in December but I should have. Pinging @New Age Retro Hippie, who brought this to my talk page. czar ⨹ 21:51, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

I have to agree. We have the exact same logo in the cover art, and the difference between the partial-wood logo and the all-wood logo is evident without any other types of visual imagery. - New Age Retro Hippie (talk) (contributions) 23:05, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

Summery

My last edit was undid for "excessive detail". While I do admit that I didn't change the source(s) to fit the new text, the Summery is missing parts that make it not useful as a summery and just point out events. I feel like that it should be improved on. --Mpo9 (talk) 18:31, 11 January 2016 (UTC)

(diff) WP is a general encyclopedia and the basic plot coverage is in proportion to its emphasis in reliable, secondary sources. All in all, the plot summary is stable at its current size and level of detail unless you have a specific concern. czar 20:00, 11 January 2016 (UTC)

Sources

Dumping some unused sources here that I consider outside the scope of the article, but perhaps useful for other articles or in discussion

  • "Shall I go ahead and say a bit about Mother 3? I might as well - the response at Space World in Makuhari was positive. It's pretty responsive now. I think it's at about 80 percent currently." Miyamoto in 1999

czar 05:05, 7 February 2017 (UTC)

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English cancellation

An IP keeps removing this on the basis that the cited sources aren't reliable "because they are not a site that gets "official" information, and they've been wrong on many things in the past." However, the sources cited are listed as reliable at WP:VG/S, and the "According to..." at the beginning of the sentence adds attribution so it isn't presented as a concrete fact. I think this is a notable development in the history of the game, so it shouldn't be removed because of a personal opinion. JOEBRO64 12:00, 25 April 2019 (UTC)

Page Desperately Needs an Update

I currently finished rewriting much of the development section, but it won't allow any large changes. The current state of this page is plagued with outdated information and tons of missing context.

I previously wrote the entire TCRF Prerelease article on MOTHER 3, and own the Mother Forever website which hosts MOTHER 3 development materials and information. Since many use Wikipedia as a primary source, updating this is very important to me. I also intend to rewrite the Development of MOTHER 3 page too; if you need any credence to my ability, please check out the two sources I previously mentioned. — Preceding unsigned comment added by EchoesN64 (talk • contribs) 00:26, 24 February 2022 (UTC)

Wikipedia isn't a primary source but if you mean it's a prominent source of information for the world, then I get it. I'm not seeing what two sources you're referencing or why anything is so wrong that it needs a complete rewrite. As a reminder, Wikipedia follows verifiability, not truth: i.e., we care what has been published and discussed in secondary sources, not necessarily what blogs have independently researched on their own. That detail can be covered elsewhere on the Internet, but the point of the Wikipedia article is to cover the topic in general for a general audience. czar 19:52, 5 July 2022 (UTC)

Lucas

I feel that Lucas is prominent enough to have his own page instead of redirecting to this one. He is just as popular as Ness at least, and is as much of an icon for the series as he is too. He also has pieces of his own trivia that can't be listed on the Mother 3 page, like the origin of his and his brother Claus' name being from The Notebook by Ágota Kristóf (a page that also does not exist). 205.221.92.9 (talk) 18:57, 2 December 2022 (UTC)

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