Talk:Music theory/Archive 7

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This article has once again become a hodge-podge

A couple years ago, a number of contributors worked at great length to clean up and pare down this article to topics fundamental to understanding what music theory is. Regrettably, it has once again become bloated with sections better handled in dedicated articles, many of which already exist, and other sections which really have no bearing on music theory (e.g. notation of dynamics in western music). I encourage the editor of this article to get this under control. The objective of this article should be to explain what music theory is, how it is generated, its uses, and its history throughout the cultures of the world. I would also like to argue again that to state "Music theory is the study of the practices and possibilities of music," makes no sense and is misleadingly biased. "Theory" is not "study" and does not require study. To say music theory is "the study" is inappropriately biased to academic training and misleading. Theory is most commonly devised by composers. After that, theorists may study what a composer has done and analyze or otherwise consider theoretical aspects. But "theory" is generated all the time by composers writing music, as well as critics and other writers discussing music. Yes, "theory" is also studied as an academic subject, but that is undoubtedly a comparatively small portion of people's work in the field of "music theory." The opening sentence should read, "Music Theory considers the practices and possibilities of music." It really must be that open-ended to be accurate and avoid bias and misleading definitions which all too often list elements of music found primarily or only in western culture.

I recommend the lead should read as:

Music Theory considers the practices and possibilities of music.

Practices include usages of types of scales, rhythms, forms, harmonies, criticism, and other elements of music as used in different cultures, styles, and eras to create, appraise, and understand music. Possibilities include speculation about, experimentation on, and exploration of elements of music, as well as the nature of music itself.

Music theory is a subfield of musicology, which is itself a subfield within the overarching field of the arts and humanities. Etymologically, music theory is an act of contemplation of music, from the Greek θεωρία, a looking at, viewing, contemplation, speculation, theory, also a sight, a spectacle (OED 2005) Most commonly, the term refers to that body of knowledge comprised of the components of music including tuning and tonal systems, scales, melody, harmony, rhythm, performance, orchestration, ornamentation, improvisation, and electronic sound production, and criticism.[2] As a field of inquiry, the term is defined in three interdependent parts: 1)…; 2) …; 3)… (summarize the full definitions in Harvard Dictionary of Music 4th edition 2003 and Oxford Companion to Music 2002).

Cultures around the world, ancient and contemporary, have developed music theory. Its history is preserved in oral traditions and artifacts such as instruments and artwork. For example, ancient instruments from Mesopotamia, China, and Paleolithic sites around the world reveal details about the music they produced and, potentially, something of the musical theory that might have been used by their makers (see History of music and Musical instrument). Many cultures, at least as far back as ancient Mesopotamia, Pharaonic Egypt, and ancient China considered music theory in more formal ways, such as written documents.

Then move on to the history of music theory around the world. Everything else should be removed. - Jacques Bailhé 21:44, 3 January 2017 (UTC)

I've never been interested in dealing with this article because it's so broad, and I wouldn't care to argue with what would be so many conflicting views. Speaking of which: I strongly disagree with you that "Theory is most commonly devised by composers" - absolutely not (with few exceptions). Composers write the music, and music theorists try to understand and contextualize what has been written. The word "theory" means trying to recognize principles and procedures based on musical phenomena - the only way that can happen is through study. Though you may think that is too academically biased, I feel it is a fact that most of music theory (western music theory at least) is firmly located in academia. - kosboot (talk) 03:00, 4 January 2017 (UTC)

Glad to have your view, but of course, to me, you put the cart before the horse. Theorists do often speculate on matters that may never have occurred to composers, but in the main, don't theorists write about what composers have already proposed? Whether you agree or not, I hope you might agree that to say "music theory is the study of...." doesn't make any sense and limits the field to study rather than the broad field it is which includes composition, speculation, criticism, as well as study. - Jacques Bailhé 03:09, 4 January 2017 (UTC)

And RE: your caution to "beware of imposing before soliciting alternative points of view,: I hope you might see that I didn't just up and change the wording and delete superfluous sections, etc. I put my thoughts on the Talk page specifically to solicit alternative POV. You may be unaware that I, Jerome Kohl, Hucbald, and number of other contributors worked, debated, and considered at great length what would make this article useful. The archives of those discussions are, I imagine, available to you. But regardless, I hope you might agree the article as it stands is indeed bloated, filled with unrelated material, and needs to be organized and focused on the topic. - Jacques Bailhé 03:19, 4 January 2017 (UTC)

I fully agree with Kosboot that theory is not devised by composers. First of all, most musics of the world merely do not have "composers" at all; the idea of music being composed is linked with music notation (i.e. music produced in at least two phases, composition and performance). One might write "Theory is most commonly devised by musicians", but isn't that obvious in any case?

A point that has been discussed before (see the Archives to this page) is whether theory can exist before it is written. That is to say, does theory arise as soon as one uses instruments, to produce pitches, possibly scales, etc.? Or does it require a reflexion on the role and functioning of instruments (organology), or an abstract definition of what a pitch or a scale is?

David Fallows, quoted at the outset of the article, mentions three usages of the term to denote (1) the rudiments of music; (2) the study of writings about music; (3) an area of current musicological study, etc. In view of this, the claim that "theory" is not "study" is puzzling, to say the least. I would argue on the contrary that even the "elements of music" belong to theory only insofar as they are studied. The main problem of the article as it stands is that its second section, Fundamentals of music, is largely redundant with Elements of music — and that is because practicing the rudiments of music is not the same thing as studying them.

Another problem, of course, is that so many subsections of the section on history remain blank. Here the project may be too ambitious. We might partly solve that by organizing the subsections as a set of redirections to more specialized articles, which up to now is only partly done.

Hucbald.SaintAmand (talk) 10:22, 4 January 2017 (UTC)

Hucbald – The following is intended not to prove or disprove, but to see if I can encourage you to broaden your views about the uses and generation of music theory and what constitutes a composition. It seems to me that most of us have a natural tendency to be focused on our disciplines in a way that narrows our view of other disciplines that intersect our work. In this case, I think that tendency is distorting what’s in the article. So, with utmost respect for your high expertise, I offer the following arguments.

Here on the Talk page, you write, “…most musics of the world merely do not have "composers" at all ; the idea of music being composed is linked with music notation….” If notation is always linked or necessary to composition, what word do we use to describe the process of creation of the vast majority of music the world over that is not written in notation? In comparison, composing in notation is rare. Conversely, a list of composers who wrote and write music, both popular and “serious”, without notation, is large. The entire corpus of liturgical music, especially the Notre Dame school, grew out of compositions that were created long before the existence of notation and, of course, many of the melodies were appropriated from popular music of the time. Similarly, the chain directly linking melodies from popular songs devised without notation to Luther and then on to Bach is well documented. Similar examples abound throughout history around the world. I can’t find any authority that defines composition as necessarily being written in notation. Was that your personal opinion or do you know an authoritative reference for your assertion? Please see definitions of composition in The Harvard Dictionary of Music and The Oxford Companion to Music.

Notation itself is developed not by “study,” but by composers exploring new ways to make themselves clear in the workable, but nevertheless limited symbology and orthography of notation that, at best, can communicate only the basic aspects of a composition. As an example, consider how notation must always be interpreted through performance practices appropriate to its period and genre. This is true of notation systems, Western and otherwise. Even the simplest music is lifeless and unmusical if played only from the notation. As conductors are often heard to say, “Don’t play the notation. Play the music.”

Regarding “study,” that is one of many uses of existing theory, but obviously enough, before that can occur, theory is devised, conceptualized, and otherwise formulated as a process of contemplation and consideration, most often through the act of composition. Study, like application, occurs after the fact and therefore cannot correctly be a definitive aspect of theory. Rather, both are uses of theory. When read objectively, isn’t that precisely what David Fallows says? As you write, “Fallows mentions three usages” of music theory. He doesn’t say where it comes from, nor mention the other important usages such as an aid to composition, criticism, etc.

You say you would argue “…that even the "elements of music" belong to theory only insofar as they are studied.” But of course, the act of composition uses those elements to make music, not study. Untutored composers, in all genres, “serious” and otherwise, naturally use the elements of music to create their compositions, an activity that is distinct from study, but that cannot somehow erase the fact they are working with and/or proposing theoretical solutions to issues of music. As music changes in style by creating new uses of its elements, composers are creating theory about how music can be made. One of countless examples would be Schoenberg struggling to make atonality comprehensible and devising his serial method. Yes, he had taught himself a great deal of theory and was undoubtedly influenced by theoretical literature of his day, musical and otherwise, but I don’t know of any source that says he worked the problem out by study. His observation that a limiting system of some kind was needed to increase structural and semantic coherence in compositions without functional harmony apparently came from observing the effects of his early compositions and their deficiencies. I don’t know of any record of him working out his solution, his serial method, by any other means than composition. Like his, other composers’ explorations (i.e. theories expressed in composition) are studied after the fact for a variety of purposes. Theorists also make important contributions to theory independent of composition, but that is, again, a comparatively small segment of the overall generation of music theory through composition. I hope you might reconsider your statement that “theory is not devised by composers.”

The study of music is described with a different word that contains all other uses of music theory as one of its disciplines: musicology.

As I say, I offer these arguments not to prove or disprove these points. They seem to me less important to the article. My purpose is simpler: to encourage you to reconsider and broaden your views so that the academic uses and generation of theory can be described in the article in appropriate relation to the many other important uses of theory and the ways it is generated. - Jacques Bailhé 19:49, 7 January 2017 (UTC)

Jacques, let's indeed broaden our views.

• What is a composer, and what about the process of creation, in musics that I claim have no composer because they are not written? I followed your advice and went to read The Oxford Companion to Music. Arnold Whitall there writes that the term composition first appears in Guido's Micrologus, was applied by Johannes de Grocheo to polyphony, and continues:

"And towards the end of the 15th century Tinctoris used the verb 'componere' and the noun 'compositor' to reinforce the distinction between music which was written down and music which was improvised. It became increasingly possible to think of composers as individuals who wrote down music for others to perform, rather than as performers improvising their own compositions." [My underlinings.]

I won't follow Whitall in what I think is a naivety, the idea of "performers improvising their own compositions": few improvisers, in my opinion, ever improvise anything or "their own". Yet, the main idea is there: "composition", today, usually means something different from "improvisation". Whitall confirms this:

"Of course, a written-down composition may itself provide the basis for improvisation or ornamentation, most familiarly in the da capo forms of the Baroque era. But a composer normally writes down music in order to provide materials to be realized as accurately as possible in performance, while accepting that the interpretation of a sensitive performer is likely to involve rather more than a mechanical reproduction of what is notated on the printed page. A composition in this sense cannot exist without notation, and musical notation has indeed evolved as a means of enabling composers to present their ideas in visible, readable form, and to allow performers to interpret the intentions of composers as precisely or as freely as composers desire." [My underlinings.]

Here too, Whitall's conception is unduly narrow, and the case of Baroque da capo forms may not be "most familiar" to either of us. But Whitall at least clearly answers your question: "do you know an authoritative reference for your assertion?" Well, yes, Arnold Whitall in the Oxford Companion to Music.

Could we agree with the more general idea that a composer is somebody who leaves a composition for posterity? — maybe not, and I am not sure I would fully agree myself. But let's further consider the idea. A composition, then, would be something that remains. You mention the corpus of liturgical music on which the music of the Notre-Dame School was based, or the popular songs that were the source of inspiration for chorale music by Luther and Bach. These indeed were musics that remained, long after their creation, eventually to be used by Notre-Dame School composers, or by Luther and Bach. But this raises two questions: (1) did these "compositions" have a "composer", or were they rather the result of some collective creation? (2) How come that existing compositions later acquired new composers, Leonin and Perotin, or Luther and Bach?

I am ready to see these as broad questions, Jacques, and I will therefore not try to provide answers. Let me say that they raise at present unanswered interrogations about what should be called a composition — and a composer.

• You write: "Notation itself is developed not by 'study,' but by composers exploring new ways to make themselves clear in the workable, but nevertheless limited symbology and orthography of notation that, at best, can communicate only the basic aspects of a composition." But don't you imply here that composers need to make themselves clear through notation? That notation must be performed is obvious, and I never claimed otherwise. This, as you say, "is true of notation systems, Western and otherwise." Notation is there to organize a musical process in two phases, a phase of composition and a phase of performance. Some claim that music could exist in one phase, when improvisers improvise their own music. I would answer that even so, there usually are two phases, because the improviser usually improvises on something that existed before, even if it may not be a "composition" truly speaking, and even more does not have a "composer" truly speaking. I am perfectly aware of the limitations of notation, but I fail to see what this has to do with a definition of theory. I never claimed that notation was developed by study, I claimed that the theory of notation is a study of the particulars, among others the limitations, of notation. Modern theorists of notation include composers such as Busoni or Stravinsky.
• You write: "... the act of composition uses those elements [of music] to make music, not study." And you quote in particular the case of Schoenberg who, you add, "had taught himself a great deal of theory and was undoubtedly influenced by theoretical literature of his day, musical and otherwise, but I don’t know of any source that says he worked the problem out by study." I don't see of what "problem" you are thinking here. I never claimed that composition needed theory or study, I merely said, and I repeat, that these are two different things. Schoenberg not only taught himself theory, but he became a theory teacher for Berg, Webern and others; he wrote theory books, among others books on the theory of composition (Models for Beginners in Composition and Fundamentals of Musical Composition). It could be shown that some of his ideas about atonal music arose from theoretical considerations, as can be read in the last pages of his Harmonielehre.
• About theory being one of the disciplines of musicology, let me merely say that theory exists now for at least twenty-five centuries, starting for us in Greek Antiquity. Musikwissenschaft is a term that appeared less than three centuries ago (with Mizler's Correspondierende Societät der musicalischen Wissenschaften, 1738), and "musicology" about one century ago (Waldo Pratt's paper in the first volume of The Musical Quarterly, 1915). This says it all, I think.

Yours, Hucbald.SaintAmand (talk) 09:37, 8 January 2017 (UTC)

Hucbald – Thank you for your very thoughtful reply.

Well, yes, Whitall expands on the uses of the word composition as it applies to music, as does the Harvard Dict. But in your recount, you skip over the first, therefore, foremost and most general meaning both sources describe. Harvard: “The activity of creating a musical work; the work thus created.” No requirement for notation there. Oxford Companion: “Composition is both the activity of composing and the result of that activity. It is not an exclusively musical term … and in all cases describes a process of construction, a creative putting together, a working out and carrying through of an initial conception or inspiration.” Neither definition requires notation as a definitive aspect. The definitive aspect is ordering and structuring an initial inspiration, as is often meant by “composed in his head.” OED’s definition of “compose” in general is “1. To make by putting together parts or elements: to make up, form, frame, fashion, construct, produce…6. Music. To invent and put into proper form.” (My edition is 1970) “Proper form” is, of course, a broad phrase that can certainly include notation as one of many possibilities, but nowhere is that possibility made definitive. I do recognize the more formalized use of the word, but again, if composition is necessarily linked to or requires notation, what word do we use to describe the vast majority of music that does not use notation?

RE: your thought that “a composition would then be something that remains” also seems unnecessarily limiting. Some compositions do remain. Many don’t. I don’t see how that affects our understanding of what constitutes composition. Nevertheless, there are countless examples of compositions that were not notated but remain in recordings, written descriptions, etc. Certainly, oral transmission would be a primary example, as with the foundations of the Notre Dame school.

You ask whether such compositions had a composer or were the result of collective creation. As Taruskin repeats to the point of sounding a bit apologetic, we just don’t know, of course, and may never know. But does that affect our understanding of the word composition? Clearly, we have numerous examples of works, musical and otherwise, composed by more than one person.

I didn’t mean to imply “that composers need to make themselves clear through notation.” To the contrary, although I absolutely love notation for all sorts of reasons, including what to me is its elegant beauty and parsimony, notation is nevertheless a tool use to communicate the basics of a composition. Indeed it certainly does help me organize compositions and imagine that’s true of other composers. A look a Bach’s and Beethoven’s furious slashing and scratching on their preliminary scores is evidence enough! However, many composers don’t use notation at all. If there is a written form of their composition, it may be midi specifications, just verbal description, or other. I think we also need to recognize that some notated compositions are not intended to be performed. I’m thinking of mid 20th century composers who seemed to be writing to make musical arguments or explore theoretical ideas, not aural performance.

As you mention, improvisation raises a variety of questions, most often of which is whether it can rightly be considered composition. As you know, I answer, yes, it is. Again, composing in one’s head is no different from composing on paper. One uses a convenient tool to visualize and help the process. The other does not. But in essence, the mental activity that is composition remains the same.

The point I raised about notation related to the definition of theory was an attempt to respond to your mention of “…music being composed is linked with music notation….” I can’t understand the usefulness of such a limitation on our understanding of what defines composition when so much music is never notated during its composition. Jazz, Rock & Roll, Blues, and genres from around the world have no link to notation during the phase of composition. A small number of such compositions may be notated after the fact for one purpose or another, but its not part of the process of composition. The Library of Congress, for example, provides for copyright of music compositions in sound recordings and also, of course, various written forms such as notation.

RE: Schoenberg - Chronology of his writing vs. his compositions demonstrate that many of his ideas were worked out in composition and later described by him in Harmonielehre, first published in 1911. Op. 10, written in 1908 is most often cited as the beginning of his abandonment of diatonic harmony which was more highly developed in Erwatung Op. 17 (1909), and fully formed in Pierrot Lunaire Op. 21 (1912). As Taruskin decribes it, in the final section of Harmonielehre, “Schoenberg’s discussion of consonance and dissonance is actually a veiled description of his own recent music….” (Taruksin, Hist Western Music, Vol 1 p. 309.) Were some ideas perhaps formulated in letters, discussion with Kandinsky, from reading, etc.? Undoubtedly. But my point is that we can also clearly see him working out his theories in composition.

If we look at the development of Western theory, I think we continually see that theoretical ideas often arise first in composition. If we trace the indications of the beginning of tonality, functional harmony, etc., and compare available dates of compositions bearing those traces with theoretical writing about them, I think we see that more often than not, theories are hatched by composers writing music. After the fact, written theories begin to distill and formalize what has already occurred in compositions. The Harvard Dict puts it well. The study of theory “has traditionally been concerned with understanding pieces of music….” (p.879) which have obviously been written beforehand.

Returning to the wider issue of how we think about defining music theory in the article, let me say that I do recognize we often use the term to mean academic or scholarly study. But the point that seems important to me is that the article’s definition should not impose arbitrary limits on your understanding of what music theory really is: a body of knowledge and speculation about music. That’s why I argue for the wording the opening sentence as I originally wrote it: “Music theory considers the practices and possibilities of music.” Saying anything more is precisely what fouls so many other definitions that simply list unique aspects of Western theory, thereby excluding other cultures, and/or introduce arbitraries such as “the aim toward beauty of structure. I think you recognize these and other failings of most definitions.

I would abandon my arguments as trivial distinctions if not for the obvious impact unnecessary arbitraries in the opening sentence and the rest of article’s lead have on the rest of the article and, thereby, people’s understanding of what is in actuality a very broad and fascinating topic. I certainly don’t mean to diminish the value or importance of study or its contributions to theory. My intent is to make the defining sentence open-ended enough to include all cultures and the most fundamental aspects of the theory which to me are “practices and possibilities” which include composition, formal theorizing in publications, teaching, studying, performance, and so on.

To write “The study of” mistakenly confines the definition to only one of the its uses and tells us nothing about the fact that it is a living, breathing, ever-evolving thing—not an petrified pile of laws and rules. “Music theory” isn’t a verb as “the study” implies. It’s a noun: the sum total of the world’s thoughts and practices in the field of music. That’s why I made the distinction between the term “music theory” and the word “musicology,” the latter implicitly meaning, of course, “the study of music.” - Jacques Bailhé 20:46, 8 January 2017 (UTC)

OK, Jacques. I am ready to concede that "composition" can be understood either in a general or a particular meaning. The particular meaning denotes a musical process in two phases, where composition is distinct from performance; this often implies music notation, but not always. The general meaning is that any music is somehow composed, in that it is created, constructed, put together. Let's assume for a while the general meaning, but then let's also accept all its consequences. Your claim is that "composition", in the most general sense, necessarily involves some level of theory. And if this is so, then indeed the article should at least say it.

Your claim boils down to saying that there is no music, not even a child song, without theory. For any kind of music, even improvised ex nihilo, already somehow is "composed". And as all music is composed, so also all music is theory. Singers in our streets and our fields, at the same time as they sing, produce theory much as Molière's Monsieur Jourdain practiced prose without knowing.

However, since now 25 of 30 centuries, people called themselves theorists (or the equivalent in any language and/or cultural context) and produced a huge amount of usually written theory, "an enormous body of material that covers almost every imaginable aspect of music" (David Fallows in The Oxford Companion to Music). There are only few domains of human activity that produced a comparable body of texts – philosophy might be the only one that really compares.

Partial lists of the guys calling themselves "theorists" can be found e.g. in Palisca and Bent's article "Theory, theorists" in The New Grove Online or in WP's List of music theorists; many were not "composers" in either sense of the term. The New Grove Online defines theory as "An area of study that tends to focus on musical materials per se, in order to explain (and/or offer generalizations about) their various principles and processes" (art. "Theory") and says that "Theory is now understood as principally the study of the structure of music" (art. "Theory, theorists"). Nobody here, neither the theorists themselves, nor the New Grove authors, say that theory arises from composing. And since you are keen to ask me to justify my statements, may I ask you to produce if only one reliable reference to the effect that music theory arises from composition?

You write that "'Music theory' isn't a verb as 'the study' implies. It’s a noun." Let me stress that "music theory" implies "theorizing" as much as "study" implies "studying" and "composition" implies "composing".

I can agree with you that the article should mention those who produce music theory à la Monsieur Jourdain. But I stand fast to my opinion that for the main part it should stick to the meaning of "Music theory" properly speaking, e.g. as defined for instance in The New Grove: an area of study. This is not a matter of academic discipline, or of members of the American SMT (Society for Music Theory), which I am not, but well a matter of the very definition of theory at large, "a contemplative and rational type of abstract or generalizing thinking, or the results of such thinking" (Wikipedia). — Hucbald.SaintAmand (talk) 09:48, 9 January 2017 (UTC)

Hucbald, I agree with your assessment wholeheartedly and I sincerely appreciate your willingness and very helpful efforts to think all this through with me. It's been a pleasure.

I can’t imagine any sensible argument that “study” is not one of the primary uses of music theory, and that should be made clear in the article. My primary concern is about unnecessarily limiting the definition of music theory to one use and/or one culture. This is easily fixed by replacing “is the study of” with the word “considers.”

Regarding composition, I don’t mean to suggest the article needs to engage in a discussion about why an untutored child making up a song to sing to themselves is not a theorist. Nevertheless, such a child is in some way utilizing their culture’s conventions regarding what makes music: its forms, rhythms, pitch relationships, etc. I just think we need to watch out for introducing arbitraries that draw lines that aren't really there. Yes, “composition” is often used to mean creating music with the aid of notation (verb form) or the written result of that action (noun form). But conflating those distinct concepts is arbitrarily limiting because doing so incorrectly erases the vast majority of the world’s music—obviously an unintended effect and one that we can remove by being applying Occam’s razor.

I suggest the first paragraph after the definition that now appears in the lede be removed. As argued, it describes uses rather than what theory is. The paragraph could be helpful later in discussion of academic uses, but not here where we should be describing the broad meaning and uses of theory. The following 3 paragraphs (perhaps with some changes in wording) fulfill that task.

As you, Jerome, and I concluded before, I recommend the article strictly focus on defining music theory and its general academic, scholarly, and compositional uses—without getting mired in details. Subtopics should be removed. We should rely on dedicated articles to discuss those topics and where appropriate, point to them. I do think a brief history of the development of theory around the world is important, but it need not attempt to cover all cultures or become involved with details and differences between cultures. I recommend a sweeping overview in a couple hundred words, at most, that makes it clear music theory is an ancient and worldwide phenomenon, and importantly, continues to evolve.

I won't make any changes until we have a consensus on the shape and content of the article. - Jacques Bailhé 20:12, 9 January 2017 (UTC)

Cultural globalization?

Jacques, I open this new section because otherwise it becomes difficult to find one's way in our dialogue.

Your last posting makes it clear, I think, that your position is an ideological one, one of cultural globalization. You would like the music theory article to treat all cultures on the same level and, to this effect, you would want it to stress that music theory arises in all cultures with (the "composition" of) music itself. Such an ideological stance deserves all our sympathy, especially in these troubled times (and in those to come).

The problem, however, is that cultural globalization cannot apply in the case of music theory. Once we agree that "theory" involves not only the simple fact of making music but, at a more specialized level, the production of theories, it soon appears that all cultures are not equal in this respect. This is not a value judgment, because I don't think any specific value could be associated with the production of theories. It merely is a judgment about cultural differences.

If you consider the fragments of the history of theory that are at present assembled in the article, you'll see that music theories may have appeared before 3000 BCE in Mesopotamia, 2500 years ago in Greece and possibly in China, about 2000 years ago in India – and that's it. The corpus of theories is scant in Mesopotamia, not extremely large in China or India, and quite enormous in Greece. Greek theoretical logorrhea appears to have affected Arabic countries (to an extent that is not yet fully evaluated, as too little is known about Arabic theory after Safi al-Din) and the West. This probably is because in these cultures philosophy and music were considered interconnected disciplines, with music in addition making a link with science. The enormous corpus of music theory produced in the West during the last 25 centuries is without equivalent in the world.

Once again, this is not a value judgment: producing theory does not mean one is more clever, or whatever. You write that the music theory article "need not attempt to cover all cultures or become involved with details and differences between cultures." I don't see why, because these differences do exist and must be described and discussed. You say that "We should rely on dedicated articles to discuss [sub]topics and where appropriate, point to them." There are two problems here: first that doing so would not really reflect the varying importance of theory in the different cultures; and second that these dedicated articles often don't exist and probably won't before some time. I at least would not dare write dedicated articles on the music theory of many specific cultures. But I would never endorse a music theory article that does not mention the differences between cultures. — Hucbald.SaintAmand (talk) 10:32, 11 January 2017 (UTC)

I agree with much of what you say. The sentence of mine you quote reads, "I do think a brief history of the development of theory around the world is important, but it need not attempt to cover all cultures or become involved with details and differences between cultures." (emphasis added) Attempting to cover all cultures, as the current article does, is unnecessary to make the point that theory is found around the world. By "point to subtopics", I meant subtopics such as pitch, melody, music analysis, and others now in the article, rather than explaining them here. As we once concluded, I still think the best outline for the article is: definition, history, subtopic links. I think the links are necessary to avoid duplicating existing articles and making this one voluminous when it should be restricted to "music theory" in general as outlined. Its details or subtopics need their own articles, as many already have, where they can be discussed thoroughly. Discussing them in distilled form here seems unhelpful and needlessly redundant. Since some readers will likely come here looking for those particulars, it does seem helpful to point them on their way. RE: "the varying importance of theory in the different cultures" and "the differences between cultures," is that important or necessary here? Even if it were, I think such a discussion is far beyond the scope of this article and digresses from the article's purpose. I also doubt we could find any references that were anything more than opinion and dubious value judgments. Seems to me the article should simply strive to make clear that music theory is a world-wide phenomenon and give some general examples: Greek modes, Chinese pentatonic scale, and the like. Again, I recommend linking to "pentatonic scale" or "Music of China" rather than discussing here. Discussion of the relative importance or sophistication between cultures seems unnecessary in an article intended to explain what theory is and provide an overview of its development around the world. The New Grove definition of theory is an example of what I think we must avoid. It describes a set of characteristics that are, in sum, distinctly those of Western european music, often stylistic, and arbitrary. In my view, that's not only mistaken regarding a definition of music theory, but completely unsupportable given the unmistakable evidence of theory, both written and otherwise, across the ages and around the world. I think a generalized history/development section is also important to make clear that theory is not a fixed body of knowledge, but a continuously evolving attempt to understand how music has been, and can be made. That's not a cultural endeavor. It's a human endeavor. - Jacques Bailhé 19:45, 11 January 2017 (UTC)

Jacques, are we alone discussint the future of this article? I thought there was a Wikipedia:WikiProject Music_theory that might have shown some interest... I am quite in agreement with most of what you say, and I do believe we come closer to a consensus – but I keep thinking that we should be joined with others in this.

David Fallows, quoted early in the lede to the article, quotes three meanings of the term "theory":

• (1) the rudiments or, better said (because this is the term we chose after some discussion) the Elements of music; this is covered in the second section of the present article, of which the title, Fundamentals of music should perhaps be changed for "Elements of music". I agree with you that most of the contents does not really belong here, if only because it is also found in the main article, Elements of music. On the other hand, I think that we might stress here the theories, if any, concerning these elements: theories of pitch; of scales and modes; of consonance and dissonance; of melody, harmony, rhythm, timbre; of forms; of notation; etc. I am convinced that there are properly theoretical aspects that may not belong to the specialized articles and that should better be dealt with here, the keyword being Theories of ...; let's leave this open for further discussion.
• (2) the study of the writings about theory. This is or should be covered in the first section of the article, History. You rightly argued that this section should also say some words about theory before writing (what I keep thinking of as the prehistory of theory), and the article indeed includes that. But the organization of this section obviously needs a thorough rethinking. I think to be responsible for much of its present organization and I admit today that my choice is not the good one. By dividing the section first in chronological periods (Prehistory, Antiquity, Middle Ages, Modern and Contemporary), I had hoped to put all cultures on more or less equal level. But the chronological periods may not exist in the same way in all cultures, and the various cultures did not have equal share in each. I wonder now whether it would no be better to arrange this section by Culture: say, Greek, Chinese, Indian, Arabic, Western, etc. We will keep disagreeing on this, I am afraid; but I do believe that the bulk of theories produced first in Greece, then in the cultures directly influenced by Greece, i.e. Arabic and Western, is without comparison with anything produced anywhere else, and I keep thinking that the article should reflect this fact. It is one of the points where I'd very much like to have the opinion of others.
• (3) "An area of current musicological study that seeks to define processes and general principles in music". I am afraid I am at loss to understand David Fallow's opinion here. He wants to stress the study of "the fundamental materials from which [music] is built", but that already was covered in point (1) above; and he want to oppose it to the analysis of music, being the study of individual works; but analysis necessarily is about such aspects as melody, harmony, counterpoint, form, and the like, which again leads back to point (1) above. The articulation between theory and analysis is a point often discussed in professional circles; it again is one about which we may need the opinion of others, even if I don't think that question to be of such importance here.

The article has a third section, on the academic discipline of theory, which partly covers the questions raised by Fallows in his point (3) above and which I think remains necessary. Its present content has little to do in an article on music theory, though. It is a mixture of points which may or may not concern theory properly speaking. It fails to mention the existence of scholarly societies dealing with theory, not only the American SMT, but also the European Societies and some non Western ones.

I won't say more now, I'm too busy with other matters. But I hope we'll see reactions from members of the Wikipedia:WikiProject Music_theory – I'll leave a message there. Hucbald.SaintAmand (talk) 21:16, 18 January 2017 (UTC)

I agree it would be good to have some others join the discussion -- especially people who actually make music. It's so easy to get lost in books and lose sight of how theory is thought about and used to actually make music. I'd especially like to hear from people who are now studying or just completed their studies, as well as people who never studied formally but make music. I suppose one way we'd certainly get input is to write a draft and put it up! A thousand voices are then sure to be heard. I'm joking, of course. I don't think we should put anything up until we have a solid draft here. I do feel like you and I are finding some common ground and beginning to winnow the wheat from the chaf.

RE: an outline, I'd like to see this article short, tight, and crisply focused on what theory is. Once we venture off into pitch or other particulars, we not only duplicate other articles, but also invite the kind of ballooning that I think isn't helpful. More than unhelpful, I think it gets confusing. I we have one subtopic on any specialized area we'll get a hundred more--as the current article demonstrates. A person comes here to get a grip on what theory is and finds themselves weeding through all sorts of discussion about uses or other digressions. All of that information is, of course, important, it just doesn't belong here. The more focused we can make it, the better -- not to mention it'll be a more manageable task. - Jacques Bailhé 08:12, 20 January 2017 (UTC)

Wikipedia really is here to describe how other sources discuss topics. See Wikipedia:The perfect article. Discussing how other books, journalists and writer have already defined music theory is the way to go. Show mentions of any notable writers about music theory. Mention links to composers who wrote commonly used texts. I'd also be in favor of bold live editing. Especially deleting all of the unsourced, vague, and unrelated sentences and even full paragraphs. Sections that currently have their own articles (Genre and technique, Music perception and cognition) seem to not make any justification for being related to music theory. Other than being related to music? Pitch, fundamentals of music, etc are subject that music theory itself discusses... but then those not talking *about* the concepts of music theory introduced at the top. None of that is necessary here, is it? Simiilar to how cellphones use electricity, and so if we're being specific the cellphone article would be better linking to electronics instead of attempting to describe more. Those topics have their own articles that do that better. Hope this helps! =) Sketchee (talk) 19:59, 20 January 2017 (UTC)

Sketcheee, thanks very much for your thoughts. I agree, as you can see above, especially under the section "This article has once again become a hodge-podge." About 90% of what's now in the article could be cut. A couple years ago, I and others had the article down to size, but it has since ballooned. It really doesn't need to be so complicated, but it seems people are inclined to want to include subtopics that are of particular interest to them. Good of them to contribute their ideas, but as you say, most of that should be put into articles on the particular idea. This article should focus on what music theory is as a body of knowledge and speculation about music. Set Theory is an intriguing aspect of music theory, as are thousands of other aspects, but here, I think they're unhelpful digressions. And as you say, they are, or can be, better handled in dedicated articles. RE: writers on music theory, we will definitely discuss, either in the body or as I would recommend, as a list under "Further Reading." THanks again for your input and I hope you'll feel encouraged to contribute as we begin to work out a new draft. - Jacques Bailhé 20:33, 21 January 2017 (UTC)

I'm not sure why you think performers' input would be particularly insightful here, but I've been following this discussion with interest. As a composer and performer, I think of music theory as providing a vocabulary to talk about music, useful but not essential, like measure numbers. Mozart didn't know anything about Roman numerals or Schenkerian analysis, but he understood their principles intuitively, and performers can render Mozart's music beautifully via intuition alone as well. Pop and jazz performers are perfectly capable of doing without theory (or even measure numbers), but there's no doubt that theoretical concepts apply. When we go to talk about music, however, we need the vocabulary (and implied analysis) which theory provides. It's the difference between saying "The middle section of that song sounds different" and saying "The bridge of that song is in the subdominant." The same goes for world music: obviously some theoretical concepts apply to most types of music (e.g. tuning systems, meter), but it's not essential to music-making, and whether a literature on theory has been developed varies by culture.

IMO this article should focus on the existence and development of music theory as an academic (using this word in its widest sense) discipline, covering whichever cultures have developed such a discipline, and I agree with comments above that detailed discussions of theoretical concepts should be delegated to other articles. —Wahoofive (talk) 17:45, 23 January 2017 (UTC)

Hi Wahoofive. Glad you chimed in and really appreciate your thoughts. I agree that knowing the terms of music theory isn't essential to making music. Mozart might not be the best example since, beside his natural talent, he was tutored extensively by his highly skilled violinist and author father, as you probably know. I do, however, agree with the point you make and to a large degree, that's why I'm interested in hearing from performers. My ex-brother-in-law was principal Horn for the LA Philharmonic. Obviously, a very thoroughly trained and highly skilled player. Whenever I asked him a theory question, he'd always say didn't think much about that stuff. But of course, performance practice is part of the wide field of theory and Lord knows, he thought about how to play his horn constantly. It interests me how players think about and apply theory - often very differently from composers, arrangers, etc. I like your thought about theory providing a vocabulary and I agree that's certainly one of its uses. Anecdotally, in my the sitar lessons I took in Nepal, the teacher simply sang to me and occasionally grabbed my fingers because I spoke no Nepalese and he spoke no English. Nevertheless, theory was communicated. Regrettably, I don't know of any authoritative source that discusses the "vocabulary" aspect of theory specifically so I'm not sure we could discuss that in the article. If you know any source for that, I'd love to look it up. That's not a challenge to what you say, it's because I think it's an extremely interesting aspect. Chomsky, for one, has written extensively on how vocabulary affects understanding, perception, and the ability to think about a subject. It's certainly difficult to teach theory without a vocabulary. If you have a copy, see Harvard Dictionary of Music's discussion - not the older editions, but 2003 or later. I think it does an excellent job of covering the breadth of the field of theory. It also mentions categorization and classification, which seems to me related to your thoughts about vocabulary. Theory also seems important as speculation. Not only do academics speculate and propose theoretical ideas and possible solutions, so do composers, performers, critics, and players. It may well be that the larger portion of theory has been and is generated by writers explaining what composers have proposed in their compositions. It seems that style, genre, new structural forms and uses of pitch relationships, etc. are, more often than not, first proposed by composers, then classified and categorized by theorists, as most definitions of theory mention. There's no question the academic use of theory is important, but from my view, focusing on that would overlook the multitude of other important ways theory is used and generated, and paint a misbalanced picture. In gross terms, it seems to me that around the world there are vastly more composers and players using and developing theory than academics and theorists. No? Thanks again for your thoughts. I hope you'll feel encouraged to contribute as this moves along toward a new draft. - Jacques Bailhé 17:16, 24 January 2017 (UTC)

Jacques, and Wahoofive, what you seem to say is, for instance, that composers wrote sonata-forms long before the theory of sonata-form began to be written by Reicha or Marx – and that therefore, in a sense, they produced the theory of sonata-form before theorists became aware of it. This reminds me of one of my colleagues who, during a study day in our university, told us that she had been able to find early Rigaudons (the French baroque dance), but unable to discover which of these was the model of the Rigaudon. And indeed, composers may produce pieces which cumulatively create a form. One may wonder what would have happened of the Rigaudon if one or several composers had written them in triple meter instead of duple. One answer could be that what they wrote were not Rigaudons, but what if they named them so? Is the name determinant? And how many rigaudons were written without being named so, and how come that we nevertheless know that they are Rigaudons? Sonata-form, oddly enough, is not a form of the Sonata, in its early history at least: the form probably originated in Symphonies. Haydn and Mozart wrote sonatas; they wrote their first movement imitating forms that they also used in symphonies. So what? How many Rigaudons, or Sonata-forms, do we need before their theory can really be said to exist?

What I mean is that even if one must recognize that such forms (or, for that matter, any music-theoretical concept) inductively arise from instances produced by composers or musicians, to call these instances "theories" is stretching the term beyond what is useful or acceptable. As in any scientific or logical reflexion, theory arises when the results of inductions are transformed in a hypothesis open for deductions – it is this shift from induction to hypothetico-deduction that is meant by the word "theory". To call Chomsky in the discussion is interesting, because language obviously is of paramount importance here. Composers may produce pieces that they name rigadoons, or sonatas, or whatever, but the theory of these appears only when these names are understood as meaning something specific, as defining what a Rigaudon or a Sonata-form is. We can suppose that Mozart was aware that many of his sonata's first movements (not all of them, though) were in roughly the same form; but we cannot be sure. He may not have been fully aware that, of his sonatas, some did begin in something worth being termed sonata-form (if he ever had needed to give them a name) and others not. And this situation remained until someone stated the difference between a sonata-form and other forms – that is, until someone produced a formal theory of Sonata-form. What is interesting in the theory of Sonata-form may not be that it defines the form, but that it explains why other forms mus be excluded from it.

Theory, in short, is by no means the same thing as practice. In a way, any form of teaching, even without words as with your sitar teacher, Jacques, is a form of incipient theory. But you must be aware that much oral transmission happens through stealing (the students stealing what they think they can understand of their master's practice, and the master refusing to demonstrate everything). That is to say that transmitting an oral tradition may involve no theory at all. Theory arises when concepts are formally named and the names understood as distinctive.

(Well, I don't really know why I wrote all this, but it might perhaps be of use in the discussion.) — Hucbald.SaintAmand (talk) 18:37, 24 January 2017 (UTC)

I think the atomic theory of matter was developed in the late 19th/early 20th century, but electrons had been happily orbiting their nuclei for billions of years before that. Theory only happens when theorists write about it, not when the phenomena they're describing first occurred, no matter how widespread. —Wahoofive (talk) 06:16, 25 January 2017 (UTC)

shouldn't there be drums in prehistory?

The prehistory section doesn't mention what is probably the first instrument, drums! I'm assuming that rhythm is part of music theory. Pb8bije6a7b6a3w (talk) 14:11, 27 July 2017 (UTC)

Drums are definitely part of music history as are other instruments (for example, those in the Bible). But are they part of music theory? According to the article lead, music theory is about general understanding of how music is put together, in the broad sense, independent of its practice in various instrument. Based on various early treatises I've read, drums are not mentioned in any significant manner, so I don't see a need to include mention of them here. - kosboot (talk) 15:55, 27 July 2017 (UTC)

The section on Prehistory says that "Preserved prehistoric instruments [...] implicitly reveal something of a prehistoric theory of music". This is a concession made to an earlier contributor to this article, and the idea of "implicitly" revealing something is odd, to say the least. The statement, at any rate, makes no mention of any specific type of instrument, neither drums nor any others, and rightly so, I think. There is a link refering to Prehistoric music, where one can check that there is no credible evidence of the existence of drums in prehistoric times. Whether they existed or not in any case has nothing to do with music theory: it is true that the theory of rhythms is part of music theory, but from this does not follow that the existence of rhythm denotes the existence of theory.

The question whether drums existed in Prehistory is no concern of music theory. However, let me add that it is extremely unlikely that drums may have been present among the earliest devices producing rhythm. The membranes of the earliedt drums, most probably made of hide, would have involved quite developed techniques, first to raise the cattle, then to produce the membranes, that must not have been available before quite late in Prehistory. And in any case, this concerns the Prehistoric music article (and possibly a few others), but certainly not Music theory. — Hucbald.SaintAmand (talk) 19:33, 27 July 2017 (UTC)

It would indeed be difficult to establish the (IMO dubious) proposition that ancient rhythmic activity entailed a contemporaneous theory of rhythm. I do have a quibble regarding your comments on hide drumheads, though: I suspect paleolithic people used hides for things such as clothing and shelter, long before the introduction of animal husbandry. In more recent history, the traditional material for the covering of a tipi came from wild buffalo. Traditional techniques for preparing rawhide still remain in living memory, and would have been practicable with the limited technical resources available to bands of paleolithic hunters, i.e. sharp flakes and roundish hammer stones. Just plain Bill (talk) 20:32, 27 July 2017 (UTC)

Irrespective of whether they had drums, I think it's safe to say prehistoric people could have had other percussion instruments, made of, say, wood or bone, which from a music theory perspective would be equivalent. Interesting, but still largely irrelevant for this article. —Wahoofive (talk) 16:24, 28 July 2017 (UTC)

As a matter of fact, we didn't resolve the dispute as it can be read in earlier discussions on this page, whether the theory of music can exist "implicitly" in any musical usage, or results from a discourse about musical practices. Prehistoric musicians certainly had rythm, and most probably intruments (mainly percussions, one may suppose) for the purpose. So what? Is to "have rhythms" (and rhythmic instruments) the same thing as having a theory of rhythms? At some point, the article should give an answer to this question. But the very principle of a collaborative encyclopedy doesn't make this easy ... — Hucbald.SaintAmand (talk) 20:55, 28 July 2017 (UTC)

Prehistoric people may have used mnemonic syllables to render or classify rhythms, but I believe we are unlikely to discover a credible ur-syllabary which made up their "theory" in the practical sense given above. Any claim to modern knowledge of prehistoric academic theory would stretch credulity, to put it kindly. Unwritten discourse tends to vanish in the wind, unless extraordinary efforts are undertaken to preserve it, as in the case of some Scandinavian sagas or the oral phase of the Pali canon of Buddhism. Anecdotally, I believe less than a dozen centuries is a wildly optimistic upper bound for somewhat accurate oral transmission of such "texts," even with diligent error correction. Paradoxically, the written forms may not last as long without errors accumulating.

Hucbald, If I understand your question here, it need not be limited to a prehistoric context. Do reliable sources discuss a continuum including practice, practical theory, and academic theory? I am not well enough read to have an answer to that, if it is indeed the over-arching question. Regards, Just plain Bill (talk) 23:44, 28 July 2017 (UTC)

Just plain Bill, if you browse through the sections above this one and through the archives of this page, you'll see that these questions have been in discussion here for months, if not years. Let me only say that (written) theory certainly is much older than twelve centuries – at least twice as much. The question of accurate transmission does not arise, because the original texts exist. Aristoxenus, the Greek theorist still much discussed today, wrote twenty-four centuries ago and reliable secondary sources, e.g. the Cambridge History of Western Music Theory, and many more specialized modern writings, do peruse his original text. — Hucbald.SaintAmand (talk) 09:17, 29 July 2017 (UTC)

OK, this discussion has strayed far from prehistory, mea as much culpa as anyone else. Whether having rhythm entails having a theory of it is a fair question. Has anything been written on that? Just plain Bill (talk) 15:09, 29 July 2017 (UTC)

When ancient people dropped things, they fell down. Does that mean they had a theory of gravity? —Wahoofive (talk) 01:50, 30 July 2017 (UTC)

The question "whether having rhythm entails having a theory of it" does not concern the theory of music, it concerns the definition of theory itself. The example given by Wahoofive is a good one: the theory of gravity did not appear with gravity itself, it appeared with the earliest attempt at explaning gravity. Similarly, rhythm does not entail a theory of rhythm, which requires an explanation of rhythm. — Hucbald.SaintAmand (talk) 08:11, 30 July 2017 (UTC)

Wow. Music theory and a theory of gravity inhabit two different universes of discourse. There may be some overlapping areas, but conflating them serves better as a playful jocularity than any kind of dispositive argument. The claim that gravity is a social construct has been made, but that was a well-known bit of subversive "performance art." Music, often practised and performed in group settings, has a large social component.

Effective transmission of musical content and style is aided by a coherent linguistic framework for expressing musical forms, ideas, and techniques. That, in my perhaps naive view, ought to form a major part of any working definition of "music theory."

One aim of this discussion might be consensus regarding whether it is appropriate to say, in Wikipedia's voice, that the existence of prehistoric musical artifacts and artwork "might implicitly reveal something of a prehistoric theory of music."

That is my context for the question of practice entailing the existence of theory. It may be entertaining to imagine elders guiding the musical efforts of others; one may just as easily speculate about exuberance, sorrow, or reverence spontaneously giving rise to song, dance, or pounding on hollow trees. I favor getting rid of the "might implicitly reveal" language until a reliable scholarly source is offered to support it. Just plain Bill (talk) 15:44, 30 July 2017 (UTC)

The mention of gravity was a metaphor. With one exception (Schoenberg's serial technique), the history of music theory has always been that the theory derives from practice. Just because practice exists doesn't mean there's a documented contemporaneous theory. I would strongly advise you to do as historians of music theory have done which is to focus on existing texts. - kosboot (talk) 17:32, 30 July 2017 (UTC)

It was not a very good metaphor, given that "theory" is a word much subject to abuse by equivocation. N.B. my use of "may be entertaining to imagine" and "may just as easily speculate" is emphatically not meant to indicate approval or endorsement of including the associated ideas in the article. If you know of an existing text which would support the "implicitly reveal..." part, kindly offer it here. Just plain Bill (talk) 19:58, 30 July 2017 (UTC)

[What follows was written before Just plain Bill's addition above. I have the odd impression that we may basically be in agreement, despire the appearance.]

Even although we certainly agree about this, kosboot, I would be more agressive. Sokal's attack against "postmodern" editorial practices should not be mistaken for an attack against human sciences at large. This, besides, had not been Sokal's purpose. (I'd be less benevolent for his accomplice Bricmont.)

The mention of the theory of gravity as an example of what a theory is cannot be reduced to a mere metaphor (and I cannot suppose that you suggested that gravity itself could be a metaphor for music). Theories in human sciences are of the same nature as those in "exact" sciences: hypothetico-deductive statements formulated on the basis of inductive reflection. The important point is that theories exist only once stated. The very idea of an "implicit" theory is a contradiction in the terms. Language is of paramount importance here: there is no theory, neither of gravity nor of music, without it being uttered in some sort of language. And we cannot say anything of a theory, either of gravity or of music, if its utterance is not somehow recorded. No theory can exist without some form of recorded language – and the only possible recorded language to be considered here is writing. This also is why there is a period in the evolution of mankind called "prehistory" and another one called "history".

"Effective transmission of musical content and style", as Just plain Bill describes it, needs not have anything to do with theory. This kind of transmission can be performed by entirely different means. This also has been discussed above, e.g. about musics of oral tradition and more precisely about the various means by which they may be transmitted. Note that "tradition", in "oral tradition", means "transmission"; it often explicitly is done without verbalization, e.g. on the basis of examples, and this cannot in any reasonable way be equated with theory.

I begin to be fed up with this discussion. One cannot be asked to justify the claim that no theory exists before it is uttered – one cannot be asked to justify the meaning of words. If anyone wants to claim that a theory exists "implicitly", or that theories can be proved to have existed before the advent of writing, it is up to them to justify their claim, because it largely contradicts what the words mean. Prehistoric people may have had theories, but we will never know because we have no record of what they told to each other. To claim that they had is mere nonsense.

I suggest the replacement of the phrase "... might implicitly reveal something of a prehistoric theory of music" in the article by "... might indicate the possibility of prehistoric theories of music, about which however we won't forever know anything", or something of the kind.

[This being said, I must add, to answer Just plain Bill's comment, that indeed the usage of the word "theory", in the case of music, to account for the "elements of music", makes the word quite equivocal; I merely dislike this usage. As to a text which would support the "implicitly reveal..." part, I very strongly doubt that any could exist, and if we agree that none exists, we should remove this statement as soon as possible.] — Hucbald.SaintAmand (talk) 20:19, 30 July 2017 (UTC)

Thank you. I have trimmed the text in question, without adding further speculation. That leaves the little section looking a bit bare, without any content relevant to this article... For now I'm content to leave it as a place-holder, in case someone finds something useful to fit into it. I may have over-prolonged this discussion with some of my own flights of fancy, for which I here express both regret and apology.

Well, one more fanciful item for your amusement: It would be interesting if linguistic analysis could be applied to the mnemonic syllables of various percussion traditions, to find a proto-rudimental drumming "language." I've been exposed in passing to some from western Africa, Turkey, Japan (thanks to Prof. William P. Malm) and, of course, the rudiments of drumming in English. I suspect the data set will be too skimpy to develop any definitive conclusions, but who knows? Cheers, all. Just plain Bill (talk) 22:20, 30 July 2017 (UTC)William P. Malm

Been done already, at least with western music: Generative theory of tonal music. The article does not contain any criticisms of their work, but, today, 30 years hence, I don't think anyone takes it seriously because most people recognize that music has its own rules which are not those of linguistics. - kosboot (talk) 23:37, 30 July 2017 (UTC)

Linguistic analysis and music theory

I open this new section because the discussion opened by Just plain Bill is somewhat different from the preceeding one. The question is particularly interesting.

I don't think that the mnemonic syllables of percussion traditions would be amenable to a true linguistic analysis. They do not involve a linguistic syntax, they merely stand for the music – but not for its sounds. More specifically, they do not "mean" the sound music for which they stand, they are not merely metalinguistic; their meaning (and their syntax) is largely the same as that of the music.

I must confess that the only such tradition that I really know is the dum–tak of Arabic music: it certainly does not represent the sounds of the music for which it stands. A percussionist singing these syllables may form an idea of the music represented, but no listener would recognize them as the sounds of the music to be played.

This situation is to some extent comparable to that of music notation: written music does not represent sound music. Busoni writes that the notation and the performances of a piece of music are all transcriptions of the work. The same could be said, I think, of the mnemonic syllables – all the more so that the music for which they stand probably is of oral tradition – that is, it is not fixed as a Western musical work is.

One main difference of course is that mnemonic syllables usually have the same temporality as the music itself, while notation switches off the flow of time. Another aspect, however, is that the syllables are more easily notated than the music for which they stand, using the standard writing of the language to which they correspond.

As to the general comparison between musical and linguistic rules, I do think with kosboot that GTTM is not a good example, because what it emulates is the cognitive turn taken by Chomsky in his later writings, not the linguistic one of, say, Syntactic Structures. Better examples of the comparison include works by Powers ("Language Models and Musical Analysis", 1980), Monelle (Linguistics and Semiotics in Nusic, 1992), Agawu (Music as Discourse, 2009), Molino (in Musique en jeu, 1975, etc.), Nattiez, and others.

I suppose that the question of music as language should somehow find its way in Music theory... — Hucbald.SaintAmand (talk) 09:29, 31 July 2017 (UTC)

If memory serves, tabla player Zakir Hussain devoted a track (or several?) of a CD in the early nineties to a Bol rendition of an extended call and response drum sequence. in that case, the syllables did indeed seem to stand in for the tempo and voicing of the drums, a musical performance in their own right. In one of his lectures in the mid seventies, Prof. Malm mentioned a similar sequence of Japanese syllables as impromptu performance (perhaps in a film) but I have no way of tracking that down. These things do tend to vanish in the wind, and memory is fleeting. That being said, the external links in the Bol article may reward perusal. Just plain Bill (talk) 11:51, 31 July 2017 (UTC)

What is "common law" and "modern law"?

See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Music_theory#Basics_of_common-practice_part_writing - what do these phrases mean? -- naught101 (talk) 02:52, 9 August 2018 (UTC)

The entire section was a prank, made 26 days too late for April Fool's Day 2017, in this edit. All of the "citations" were to a single undefined source name. I am ashamed to say that I have been following this article for years now, but never noticed the vandalism. I have now removed it.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 06:18, 9 August 2018 (UTC)

Theory 1750-1900

Browsing through this article, I discover a section that I had not noticed before, Music_theory#1750–1900.

One first reads that although Western theory became a world standard, other theoretical traditions survive, among others "the long and rich musical traditions unique to ancient and current cultures of Africa" – the paragraph does not say which traditions, where in Africa. Whether these really "describe specific forms, genres, performance practices, tunings, and other aspects of music theory" remains to be demonstrated. Some African traditions certainly evidence forms, genres, performance practices and tunings, but it is not obvious to me that their theoretical description is not mainly Western.

The section then has a paragraph about Sacred harp music which, it says, "uses a different kind of scale and theory in practice". The description that follows of "Secret harp theory" merely indicates that it practices solmisation on three notes (fa sol la), with a staff notation using three different note shapes for these three syllables. A quick look through the Sacred_Harp article evidences that it actually makes use of four syllables (including mi) and four note shapes.

Is this really all what has to be said of modern theory of music, 1750-1900? Do the musical tradition of "ancient and current" cultures of Africa belong to the period 1750-1900; do they really include a theory? And is "Sacred harp theory" the important point of Western theory in the same period, while four-note solmisation practice probably is documented from the Renaissance onwards, and four note-shapes notation certainly existed decades before Sacred harp music? (See Shape-note hymnody in the New Grove Online).

This section as it is appears to me deridable. It shows that this article remains in need of much work... — Hucbald.SaintAmand (talk) 21:15, 27 November 2018 (UTC)

Limitation in chord progressions?

The article contains the following statement:

Although any chord may in principle be followed by any other chord, certain patterns of chords have been accepted as establishing key in common-practice harmony.

I wonder in what sense it can be said that any chord may be followed by any other. What is here understood as a chord? If 7-chords are considered as chords, and if one admits that the resolution of dissonance does not necessarily "establish key", then one must recognize that a 7-chord (or any other dissonant chord) cannot be followed by any other, even outside common practice. The downward resolution of dissonances is a contrapuntal rule since the 15th century, I think. From it follows that a 7-chord can only be followed by one that contains the note below the 7th. E.g. a V7 chord, including ^4 as the dissonance, can only be followed by a chord that contains ^3, i.e. VI, I or III. I know of only one theory that more or less clearly recognizes this, the "Theory of Harmonic Vectors" (THV) described in some papers in MTO volume 24/4. See in particular this article and this one, and some of the others.

What do you think? — Hucbald.SaintAmand (talk) 12:20, 14 March 2020 (UTC)

Without actually reviewing all of these sources, I cannot be sure how they would prove that seventh chords occurring in the music of, say, Carl Ruggles, Edgard Varèse, Olivier Messiaen, or Michael Finnissy must follow this rule, or else be condemned as "incorrect".—Jerome Kohl (talk) 01:55, 15 March 2020 (UTC)

Agreed, Jerome, but can you derive from this the idea that "any chord may in principle be followed by any other", and that if "certain patterns" differ from this, it only is when "establishing key in common-practice harmony"? From the articles that I mention (and some others), it appears that for centuries, and certainly before "common practice", chords could not be followed by any other. How must one understand "in principle", in the quotation? — Hucbald.SaintAmand (talk) 08:24, 15 March 2020 (UTC)

I understand "in principle" to refer to any music at all, not just to the period "before common practice". One could of course argue that the concept of "chord" did not even exist until the common-practice period, or only shortly before—certainly not "for centuries". There seems to me to be no contradiction at all between the two statements.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 08:41, 15 March 2020 (UTC)

What I mean is that the principles ruling the succession of "vertical sonorities" (let's call them that) are mainly principles of voice leading. They predate not only common practice, but even the "concept" of chord. You are right to say that one could try and argue that the concept did not exist before the common-practice period, but I think that this could easily be disproved. The concept itself appears early in the 17th century, I think, with the concept of root – in Lippius and other German theorists, also in Thomas Campion. But chords themselves exist before they were conceptualized, e.g. in several 16th-century works where they are predominantly in root position: to present verticalities in root position presupposes some notion of chord. I wonder therefore whether the statement under discussion should not read something like "Even although today [or: "in present-day theory and practice"] any chord could in principle be followed by any other chord, certain patterns of chord successions have been accepted as establishing key in common-practice harmony and, even before, appear to have been statisticaly more frequent than others." I thought that Schoenberg's theory of "ascending" and "descending" progressions might substantiate this, but he did not consider pre-tonal works.

But this all may not be that important, after all. This is the reason why I ask here. — Hucbald.SaintAmand (talk) 09:30, 15 March 2020 (UTC)

If I may interject: When I first learned the basics of music theory (from Walter Piston's book, 3rd edition), without having any historical background, my reaction was the same: you have 7 chords and one can put them in any order one chooses. Once one has historical context, the notion of any chord following any other is nonsense. So I'd say that some mid-20th century textbook formulations (which placed emphasis on identifying and naming chords over how they behave) make it appear as if any chord is interchangeable when in fact they are not. - kosboot (talk) 12:16, 15 March 2020 (UTC)

I agree with Jerome. Music may contain any chords in any order. *Common-practice music* has more restrictions. That's what is meant by the passage in question. If it's not clear, let's fixit. —Wahoofive (talk) 21:39, 15 March 2020 (UTC)

I agree that that's what is meant by the passage in question, but what I claim is that these restrictions existed long before common practice. This also is what I understand from kosboot's comment above. So what? —Hucbald.SaintAmand (talk) 22:58, 15 March 2020 (UTC)

I think what Wahoofive and myself are trying to say is that there may be an intended assumption about diatonic tonal harmony that is not, in fact, expressed in the paragraph as presently formulated. kosboot, in citing his view of Piston, clearly means to have that same restriction ("only 7 chords", "historical context"). Setting out from a total chromatic context, or other non-diatonic bases (including microtonal ones), as well as including secundal, quartal, and panchromatic harmonies (as I meant to suggest by naming Carl Ruggles, Edgard Varèse, Olivier Messiaen, and Michael Finnissy) changes this situation entirely. I can endorse what Hucbald.SaintAmand says, so long as we are talking about music prior to the mid-19th century and to theories meant primarily to describe such music, but with the advent of both compositional and theoretical "twelve-tone thinking" (as defined by Arthur Eaglefield Hull in 1915), those restrictions no longer apply. One way or the other, that sentence needs to be clarified to make this point.—Jerome Kohl (talk) 00:23, 16 March 2020 (UTC)

What is a chord?

I open this new section because I consider it necessary to widen the question posed in the previous one.

If one can argue, against the statement discussed above, that the concept of chord may not have existed before common-practice tonality (or, say, before the 17th century), then what is one to do of this statement in the article?

• Chords and sequences of chords are frequently used in modern Western, West African, and Oceanian music, whereas they are absent from the music of many other parts of the world.

In what sense would series of chord in, say, West African or Oceanian music be called "progressions"? Are they ever represented by Roman numerals, as described soon after? It is not only the phrase discussed above that is problematic, but also the one that follows:

• Although any chord may in principle be followed by any other chord, certain patterns of chords have been accepted as establishing key in common-practice harmony. To describe this, chords are numbered, using Roman numerals (upward from the key-note), per their diatonic function.

Obviously, the chords numbered "per their diatonic function" are not those of West African or Oceanian music, nor those of Carl Ruggles, Edgard Varèse, Olivier Messiaen, or Michael Finnissy.

This really is a complex matter and, now that many of us may have not much else to do, we might find the time to try and clarify matters. We should be able, I think, to explain the distinction that must be made between, say, vertical aggregates, stackings of thirds, and chords "properly speaking" (i.e. functional?). There is a complex balance to be found between the need to remain understandable to everyone, and the requirements of precision.

Once again, any opinion about this would be welcome. — Hucbald.SaintAmand (talk) 09:37, 16 March 2020 (UTC)

Maybe the best place to start is at Chord (music)? Pretty much any simultaneity is considered a chord in that article, which we could reference with a hatnote. —Wahoofive (talk) 03:21, 19 March 2020 (UTC)

This topic is also related to Harmony. This overview page isn't really the right place to go into detail on this. —Wahoofive (talk) 03:22, 19 March 2020 (UTC)

Yes, indeed, Wahoofive, or better: the definition should be more detailed in all three pages. On the other hand, it seems to me that Chord (music) deals almost exclusively with common-practice chords and mentions other simultaneities only in passing. We should first decide, I think, whether "any simultaneity" can be called a "chord". Only after that would we be in position to decide where to begin. — Hucbald.SaintAmand (talk) 18:41, 19 March 2020 (UTC)

I think this is a major area of "dispute." Traditional (mostly pre-20th century) theorists would codify chords based on previous practice. In the last chapter of his Harmonielehre (1911) Schoenberg described the possibility of any simultaneity being a chord; though it took a long time, I think many post-WWII practitioners (not so much theorists) have taken the point of view that almost any simultaneity can be a chord. Thus when you get to Elliott Carter's Harmony Book (early 1960s I think), he methodically goes through all the possible chords based on intervals, not harmonic practice.. - kosboot (talk) 21:45, 19 March 2020 (UTC)

I kept thinking of this, kosboot, and I think indeed that we must say what you say: today, any simultaneity may be considered a chord, but it was not so in former times. This being said, we must state at each point in what particular sense we discuss chords and "progressions" (Schoenberg does the same, he mentions quartal chords progressions, progressions by common tones, or on the contrary by changing tones, etc., always indicating the context). This reminds me of instructions we had received when working on the first edition of the New Grove (you all are too young to remember that), that controversial issues had to be presented as such, as controversial issues. In the WP articles concerned as they are now, one jumps from one meaning of "chord" to another without any indication that one does. — Hucbald.SaintAmand (talk) 09:17, 20 March 2020 (UTC)

List of software

Because of the virus threat I'm working from home. It occurred to me that Wikipedia has so many lists of software products, why not have a list of music theory software. I've done a few searches, but I'm sure people out there know more (especially programs that are now obsolete but which should be included). I'd be most appreciative if people could list products they know. Thanks! - kosboot (talk) 17:57, 17 March 2020 (UTC)

kosboot, the research center IReMus, in Paris, assembled a list of softwares for music analysis, listed in this page. They describe about 70 softwares (not all of them really available). — Hucbald.SaintAmand (talk) 17:53, 23 March 2020 (UTC)

Thank you, Hucbald.SaintAmand! - kosboot (talk) 19:38, 23 March 2020 (UTC)

Untitled

The archives to this page contain the following threads:

• Archive 1: no table of contents. Archived 15 August 2009.
• Archive 2: 49 different threads, Archived 7 January 2015.
• Archive 3: Geographical Imbalance (2007-2012); Musical parameters in infobox (2013); Intro (2008-2013); To do (2009-2014); Adding Confusing Language (2014); Music Theory – Main Article - Suggested major revision (2014); Major theorists (2014); Tone, pitch, and note (2014). Archived 7 January 2015.
• Archive 4: Modes, scales, tonoi, and thingimajiggs (2014); Conflict with article "Chord (music)" (2014); Notation Systems (2014). Archived 7 January 2015.
• Archive 5: Clean up of the intro (2014); Quarter tones (2014); You said "scales"? (2014); History of Music Theory (2014); Theories of Harmonization Problems (2014). Archived 11 August 2015.
• Archive 6: Alternative Outline (2014). Archived 15 August 2015.

Most of these archives, especially archives 3-6, remain important for the ongoing discussions and should often be reread.

Hucbald.SaintAmand (talk) 16:24, 15 August 2015 (UTC)

Oxford Companion definition as lede?

I think the current beginning of the article starting with the Oxford Companion definition is confusing from a North American context, in which "music analysis" is a part of the field of "music theory." The 3-part definition given by Oxford does not include a large portion (perhaps even the majority) of academic "music theory" research published by major journals titled with that term such as Music Theory Spectrum or Music Theory Online, research which is concerned with description of stylistic idioms and the analysis and interpretation of existing pieces—rather than rudiments, general principles, or historical understandings of music. But I wouldn't want to remove an opening line in such a big article without a consensus opinion and a new lede to replace it! Shugurim (talk) 04:55, 3 February 2021 (UTC)

There was a discussion years ago on SMT Discuss to the effect that music theory is not the same thing as music analysis. — Hucbald.SaintAmand (talk) 11:26, 3 February 2021 (UTC)