Talk:Netherlands/Archive 11

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Short Description Edits

The short description mentions that the Netherlands has territories in the Caribbean. Why is this mentioned when the primary topic is the country is Western Europe? In addition, other countries with territories around the world (I.e. UK, France, Spain, Denmark United States) do not mention their overseas territories in their short descriptions. So why is the Netherlands the outlier? And if it is because the territories are constituently part of the Netherlands, French Guiana is also a constituent part of France located in South America. CollectiveSolidarity (talk) 23:19, 23 March 2022 (UTC)

This short description is consistent with the text and the infobox and thus a good description. It is a bit hard to compare legal systems, but for many of the countries mentioned those territories do not belong to the country itself (eg in the UK), but are formally territories. I see thus no reason to change it. I would be ok to change the description of France, but that is not a discussion to have on this page... L.tak (talk) 21:27, 25 March 2022 (UTC)

Thank you L.tak. But I'd prefer to get an outside opinion on this. For example, considering Greenland is constitutionally part of the Danish Realm with Denmark as its ultimate authority, the Denmark article does not mention Greenland as a territory in the short description since the primary topic is the metropolitan area. The status of Greenland as a territory is formally acknowledged in the Danish Realm article. Same can be said with all the other five countries with dependent territories around the world (UK, France, US, Spain, Portugal). The Netherlands is the only outlier where they do mention that the country has territories in the short desc. I think that there should be consistency across all the articles, but we are not the only voices here. CollectiveSolidarity (talk) 14:54, 26 March 2022 (UTC)

Netherland

I think it should be called Netherland instead of Netherlands Nyarlat 1920 (talk) 20:10, 18 January 2022 (UTC)

Why? L.tak (talk) 22:29, 18 January 2022 (UTC)

What are you talking about? 2001:8003:9008:1301:4431:7685:2901:DA6 (talk) 09:36, 26 January 2022 (UTC)

This is not a forum for weird ideas! gidonb (talk) 23:01, 28 January 2022 (UTC)

I'm dutch and I refer to my country as Netherland in English Willem Zoetemeijer (talk) 13:59, 29 March 2022 (UTC)

As it was mentioned above, this is not a forum. (CC) Tbhotch^™ 16:22, 29 March 2022 (UTC)

Name of the page

The name of the page should be changed to The Netherlands, just like we call for instance El Salvador and The Philippines El Salvador and The Philippines. Official name is Kingdom of The Netherlands and earlier United Republic of The Netherlands. Indeed sometime names can change: the state that is now Ukraine but was for a long time known as an area with the name ¨the Ukraine¨. However, as long as we speak or write about El Salvadorand The Philippines it shoud also be The Neterlands, just like that area in the United States The Badlands? (talk) 12:46, 3 May 2022 (UTC)

This is not a forum for weird ideas and patent nonsense! gidonb (talk) 02:36, 6 May 2022 (UTC)

"Colonial heritage" section makes no reference to Dutch atrocities in the Dutch East Indies.

Speaking as a Dutch person, this section feels heavily incomplete, and also quite dated. Dutch "colonial heritage" includes terrible atrocities committed against the local Indonesian population throughout the colonial period, and even in the Netherlands most discourse on the colonial period these days centers around these events. This section on Wikipedia seems to take an almost positive view on the colonial period, which is a terrible misrepresentation of Dutch acts in the region, and the legacy it has left in both the Netherlands and Indonesia. LordDainIronfoot (talk) 08:56, 25 July 2022 (UTC)

So fix it. Kleuske (talk) 08:59, 25 July 2022 (UTC)

The page is protected, I can't edit it. LordDainIronfoot (talk) 09:23, 25 July 2022 (UTC)

That subsection ostensibly is about the cultural impact of the colonial period on the Netherlands, not general history, although it reads as a bit unfocused. What cultural impact did these atrocities have? If you post an edit request here others can implement suggested changes. CMD (talk) 11:03, 25 July 2022 (UTC)

Will do. The cultural impact of the colonial period is mostly the deep political and cultural controversy regarding the actions of the Netherlands in the Dutch East Indies. For decades after colonial independence the actions of the colonial government were swept under the rug, and the issue of responsibility remains a controversial issue in the Netherlands today (example). As for the situation today, the King and Prime Minister have only recently apologized for the actions of the Dutch government in Indonesia, and there are still veterans groups and political parties in the Netherlands which openly defend Dutch actions in the region (for example, the Dutch FvD party). Other controversial issues include financial reparations, the return of Indonesian art from Dutch museums, the fate of Moluccan refugees in the Netherlands, and Dutch war crimes during the Indonesian War of Independence. The colonial period therefore remains a controversial issue today, and this controversy regarding the legacy of colonialism is nowadays one of the more important cultural impacts on the Netherlands. LordDainIronfoot (talk) 16:32, 25 July 2022 (UTC)

The entire section should be deleted. It's an internal FORK with history, culture, etc, and contains, among others, trivia and outdated materials (also mentioned above), while the article has a warning for being way too long. Atrocities can be mentioned briefly in history but keep it really short. History is also too long. More detail can be included elsewhere. This article should only contain an overview of Dutch history. Something should not be mentioned in the overview before it appears in the detailed article, so check that first! I will proceed to remove the section. gidonb (talk) 15:58, 2 August 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 4 August 2022

in Etymology - Holland and Dutch, change second mention of Holland spelled as Holand to Holland. Ophiomorphus (talk) 01:08, 4 August 2022 (UTC)

 Done, thanks. PlanetJuice ^{(talk • contribs)} 01:52, 4 August 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 10 August 2022

Hello Admin,

Holland isn't the informal way of saying the Netherlands.

It's the wrong way of saying the Netherlands as it's only the province of South and North Holland where Amsterdam/Rotterdam is.

The province of by example Limburg and Flevoland have never been part of The Kingdom Holland. In 1806 that was the name of a part of the Netherlands.

See the picture on this page: https://nl.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koninkrijk_Holland

If you want to annoy all the other people or provinces that aren't North or South Holland ask them if they are from Holland.

Most will just reply yes and think stupid foreigner at the same time.

It's just not correct and is a fault created due to history and a part being The Kingdom Holland before becoming The Kingdom of the Netherlands including the Netherlands Antilles, Limburg etc. You also don't call it the Holland Antilles so please don't call our country Holland.

It just education I'm trying to provide.

Better is if people search Holland to forward them to a Wikipedia where they find the education about the 2 Dutch provinces that are called South- and North Holland. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holland

See the French Wikipedia how they do it. https://fr.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pays-Bas

They added

Or translated it says: Shouldn't be confused with Holland

Here the background info: https://www.holland.com/global/tourism/information/general/netherlands-vs-holland.htm#:~:text=The%20Netherlands%20consists%20of%2012,of%20the%20Netherlands%20is%20meant. 2001:1C05:484:5530:757C:7E6:158:D0D1 (talk) 21:56, 10 August 2022 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit semi-protected}} template. The current wording appears to be a consensus decision arrived at by discussion (see discussion here); any change to the existing wording would need similar support. ‑‑ElHef (Meep?) 22:06, 10 August 2022 (UTC)

The idea that words can have only one meaning is extremely un-Dutch. In Dutch, words can mean one thing and the complete opposite! Regular synonyms are common in Dutch. For example, Holland in Dutch has two meanings. Same as in English. In fact, in English the meaning of the entire country leads, even by the main dictionary of the Netherlands! We work by what is used in English by standards in the English-speaking world of which this anon is obviously unaware. Holland is an informal name for the Netherlands in Germanic and Romance languages and the formal name of the Netherlands in other languages. We often receive input on the talk page from Dutch anons who are argumentative, while confused about the Netherlands. We refer them to the fact that this is not a forum and that all these discussions have been held time and again. gidonb (talk) 02:12, 14 August 2022 (UTC)

Agree, people should not be too strict about Holland vs the Netherlands. Although I will never call myself as being from Holland, I can imagine people from outside the Netherlands mix them up. It is exactly the same as in the Netherlands, the words UK, England and Great Britain are treated almost synonymous for almost the same reason they mix up Holland and the Netherlands. Which I can imagine is not liked by e.g. people from Scotland. Being Frisian myself, I also do not call myself Dutch, but refer to myself as being from the Netherlands, as Dutch can be misunderstood as the language one speaks. But again I understand that foreigners would mix language and inhabitants. 2001:1C01:4B85:9000:FCE3:F868:C0:6D9D (talk) 17:07, 15 September 2022 (UTC)

Anon, thank you for supporting the consensus and for sharing your personal story! It really helps us understand one of the readers in the Netherlands! gidonb (talk) 20:11, 17 September 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 10 November 2022

Add “Netherlandish” in the demonym section of the page. This term is used in art, example: “The early Netherlandish painters of the XVth century.” Sir Sytham (talk) 18:30, 10 November 2022 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 21:16, 10 November 2022 (UTC)

Thank you, ScottishFinnishRadish. Per Encyclopedia Britanica: "Early Netherlandish art, also called Early Flemish art, sculpture, painting, architecture, and other visual arts created in the several domains that in the late 14th and 15th centuries were under the rule of the dukes of Burgundy, coincidentally counts of Flanders." These works were predominantly made in Flanders. "Netherlands" here refers to a much wider region than just the Netherlands, a region that had its center in present-day Belgium. The suggestion reeks of cultural appropriation. gidonb (talk) 13:43, 12 November 2022 (UTC)

Let's just link the term in the art section and perhaps add Netherlandish Proverbs. Moxy- 14:00, 12 November 2022 (UTC)

Edit Request for broken link

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Reference 169 contains a broken link. The correct link is the following: https://www.iea.org/policies/6123-energy-agreement-for-sustainable-growth

Would appreciate someone with access making the edit! EnergyAnalyst2 (talk) 11:01, 4 November 2022 (UTC)

Hello EnergyAnalyst2. You have access, and I see that you've already made the fix, so I went ahead and removed the 'dead link' template on this reference. Thanks, EdJohnston (talk) 16:00, 12 November 2022 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Semi-protected edit request on 27 November 2022

Under "Geography" please change "man-made" to "human-made". 68.8.105.183 (talk) 13:28, 27 November 2022 (UTC)

Support. gidonb (talk) 21:38, 29 November 2022 (UTC)

 Done - an unnecessary description. Zefr (talk) 23:29, 29 November 2022 (UTC)

Religion chart

Hi,

The religion chart is divided incorrectly. Please check this.

Thanks 84.241.207.235 (talk) 13:06, 18 September 2022 (UTC)

Which part specifically do you think is incorrect? Bellowhead678 (talk) 16:32, 18 September 2022 (UTC)

Anon, your "this" remained unlinked. If you want us compare the data in the chart with a source, please be specific! gidonb (talk) 13:46, 1 December 2022 (UTC)

Further reading

The correct ISBN for The Making of Dutch Towns; a Study in Urban Development From the Tenth to the Seventeenth Centuries is 978-1013598852. [1]

Please correct the citation. Thank you 76.14.122.5 (talk) 21:30, 17 December 2022 (UTC)

 Done It looks like someone had used the ISBN-10 number as the last 10 digits of the ISBN-13 number. Largoplazo (talk) 00:40, 18 December 2022 (UTC)

This article should not be written in British. And it surely should not be strictly enforced with British flags

According to the latest guidelines from WIKI, the first submission is the final arbiter in this. And I have pasted a part of it here and bolded the American English. Not that there are NO British english constructs at all: Head of state is Queen Beatrix of the House of Orange-Nassau. (See also the Dutch monarchy). Formally, she appoints the government'Bold text'. In fact, after the elections she appoints a politician (most of the times the leader of the biggest political party) who creates the government. The parliament consists of two houses. Elections for the Lower House take place every four years, or earlier when the Lower House has taken a no confidence motion against the government. The next elections will take place in May 2002. The government is being led by a prime minister. Wim Kok, leader of the social-democratic Partij van de Arbeid, has hold this office since 1994. Political scientists consider the Netherlands a classic example of a consociational state. The capital of the Netherlands is Amsterdam, but the seat of government is in The Hague (Den Haag or 's-Gravenhage in Dutch). It is one of the most densely populated countries in the world, having 16 million inhabitants on a piece of land of about 300 by 150 kilometers (approx. 41,000 square kilometers). One remarkable aspect of the Netherlands is the flatness of the country. About half the country is less than 1 meter above sea level, some parts of it are actually below sea level. The highest point, the Vaalserberg, is 321m high. The low areas are protected by dikes and sea walls. Much of the land, for example the whole of Flevoland, has been reclaimed from the sea - these areas of reclaimed land are known as polders.

I am NOT proposing to make this an American English page. I just wish that the British English fans stop pasting the flag on every page. And maybe propose that this and many other pages should be Dutch English (Which is evolving fast). But I would say: Color, tire, program, meter and liter but likely itteration, and other double letter words Armor, elevator, truck, but neither nor, as well as most British English grammar. Harbor and Labor would be used in both manners (ILO is International Labor Organization, the British Labour party) Oh, and don't forget about financial terms. That's a mixed mess, too. Probably depending on what company you work for. There is in many cases another way. Avoid the words — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.133.57.207 (talk) 09:28, 4 November 2022 (UTC) This is the rule I refer to: MOS:RETAIN See also: § Retaining existing styles, and Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Dates and numbers § Retaining the existing format "WP:RETAIN" redirects here. For the editing policy, see WP:PRESERVE. When an English variety's consistent usage has been established in an article, maintain it in the absence of consensus to the contrary. With few exceptions (e.g., when a topic has strong national ties or the change reduces ambiguity), there is no valid reason for changing from one acceptable option to another.

When no English variety has been established and discussion does not resolve the issue, use the variety found in the first post-stub revision that introduced an identifiable variety. The established variety in a given article can be documented by placing the appropriate Varieties of English template on its talk page.

And I have this feeling that the British English has been bullied into this article. Again, no proposing to change it to another English. Proposing to delete the British English and using the words that the Dutch would use

Hi Anon, Holland has a king, not a queen. His name is Willem-Alexander. Also, the prime minister of the Netherlands is Mark Rutte, not Wim Kok. I don't know if the above is practical humor but, in any case, it is not particularly coherent. gidonb (talk) 15:40, 12 November 2022 (UTC)

Regarding the formatting of the UK English template, discussions on this topic should ONLY be held at Template talk:British English! gidonb (talk) 23:42, 2 December 2022 (UTC)

Finally, most users believe British English is used in the Netherlands. Some have claimed differently on this page but nobody ever showed proof. gidonb (talk) 00:51, 19 December 2022 (UTC)

No mentioning of the Netherlands as tax haven

There is no single mentioning, on status of the Netherlands as the according to various sources is between first and fourth place as the haven. The reports are so numerous that it is impossible to listen one Tax Justice Programmme is one of this, with an interactive tool shows how much money is syphoned to Dutch by every country in the world 79.101.194.2 (talk) 22:19, 27 December 2022 (UTC)

Dutch contribution to the EU budget

There is no mentioning of the revenues collected by the EU and expenditures of the EU in the EU. Revenues for 2022 EU budget are around 6 Billion EUR, or mere 2.5 % of the EU budget

Measured by the EU revenues as part of Dutch GDP, this represent 0.75 % of the Dutch GDP.

When it comes to expenditure in the Netherlands these are 2,6 nillion EU, which makes Dutch net payment of around 3,5 billion EuR. These represent 0.3 % of GDP 79.101.194.2 (talk) 22:29, 27 December 2022 (UTC)

VAT

Reference to be made on Big Tech services provided outside of the Netherlands, and the VAT tax paid by other Europeans on all transaction to the Dutch until 2021 79.101.194.2 (talk) 22:33, 27 December 2022 (UTC)

Transcontinental country

This should be changed as the Netherlands are not a transcontinental country. They are solely located in Europe. True, they have properties in the Caribbean, but this way we could say that France or Great Britain are trancontinental countries as well. Kazakhstan and Turkey are the best example of an actual trancontinental country. 13Sundin (talk) 15:19, 16 June 2022 (UTC)

Also, it's non-European holdings are not on "continents" but on "islands". It fails the definition of "transcontinental" several ways. I would remove it myself, but I just got done with a conflict in the lead and I'll leave it to others.Le Marteau (talk) 15:32, 16 June 2022 (UTC)

I removed it. If someone wants to claim that the Netherlands is a transcontinental country, they can do so here. In any case, it does not belong in the intro. I also dewikied the link on Holland as we do not put links on bolded text and Holland, in that particular case, meant Netherlands. gidonb (talk) 04:46, 21 June 2022 (UTC)

Agree. The Netherlands as a country has 3 islands in the Caribbean as municipalities. The Kingdom of the Netherlands has 4 countries, one of which is The Netherlands and the rest are 3 countries with almost complete autonomy (a bit like Canada in the commonwealth). I don't think those 3 municipalities make the country transcontinental (it will also confuse the reader). ItzLarz (talk) 18:24, 7 August 2022 (UTC)

Thank you for your support! The three islands on which this is based are not Dutch municipalities but territories organized as "public bodies", the government structure of which is only inspired by Dutch municipalities. Also, they do NOT belong to the Netherlands but to their residents. On and beyond, much like "natural borders", the entire concept of "transcontinental countries" is highly problematic from a geographical perspective. Nothing to stick in an intro. It can be discussed where the concept is discussed. gidonb (talk) 02:05, 19 August 2022 (UTC)

They are "openbare lichamen" indeed and as such part of the Netherlands proper. The Netherlands thus has a European part and a Caribbean part; and each part is on equal footing. The islands thus are not "belonging to the European Netherlands", but are a part of the Netherlands; just as Gouda (city) is part of the Netherlands.... L.tak (talk) 12:41, 22 August 2022 (UTC)

Earlier examples of similar public bodies inspired by municipalities were the polders that now form the province of Flevoland. You can probably agree that even at the time they were public bodies they were part of the Netherlands proper. Egel _Reaction? 21:33, 22 August 2022 (UTC)

Set aside the comparisons, these statements are very reasonable to make for folks in the Netherlands. gidonb (talk) 00:43, 29 November 2022 (UTC)

This is completely wrong. The Netherlands is NOT solely located in Europe like you say. The three special municipalities are as much Netherlands as Amsterdam is. You call them “properties” but they really aren’t. They are an integral part of the country. People on this talk page are basically saying that the Netherlands is not transcontinental because “it just doesn’t feel that way”. So you’re letting your subjective thoughts win from the objective truth. The definition of a transcontinental country is that one specific country is located on two continents. It’s clear as day that the Netherlands fits this definition. It’s officially a non-contiguous transcontinental country, and if you write it that way with a hyperlink it also wouldn’t confuse the reader. Note that the Netherlands (country) is not the same as the kingdom of the Netherlands (sovereign state). This article and my comment is only about the former. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.109.145.179 (talk) 11:24, 18 December 2022 (UTC)

One way to look at it is this:

• Suppose I tell people "I'm going to Russia" and they ask "Where in Russia?". Whether I say Vladivostok (in Asia) or Moscow (in Europe) or Kaliningrad (in Europe, but not contiguous with the rest of Russia), they aren't going to experience any dissonance over my having said I'm going to Russia.
• Suppose I tell people "I'm going to the Netherlands" and they ask "Where in the Netherlands?". If I say Amsterdam or Rotterdam or Scheveningen (I love that name), it will make sense to them. If I say Aruba or Bonaire, there'd be a dissonance. It would seem weird to them even if they understand that Aruba and Bonaire are, in different ways, components of the territory of the Kingdom of the Netherlands. And it would have seemed weird to me to have said "I'm going to the Netherlands" in the first place.

These are the pragmatics of how people mentally classify countries and parts of countries, in contrast with the geopolitical technicalities. Largoplazo (talk) 13:30, 18 December 2022 (UTC)

So subjective mental classification is more important here than true objective classification. No wonder people call Wikipedia unreliable. People here are actively spreading misinformation to fit a common consensus.

Besides Aruba != Bonaire. The former is a country while the latter belongs to the Netherlands. It makes no sense to confuse the Kingdom with the Country. So if I was going to Bonaire, Saba, St. Eustatius I would be going to the Netherlands. It’s not the same as gibraltar and the UK. 92.109.145.179 (talk) 14:37, 18 December 2022 (UTC)

Since when is government messaging objective??? gidonb (talk) 19:41, 18 December 2022 (UTC)

I simply don't believe that if you decided to take a vacation in Bonaire, you'd tell people you were going to visit the Netherlands. Also, how about this: suppose you're in Canada or Japan or Egypt and you're sending a letter to someone in one of the Oranjestads. I'm certain that the correct way to address the envelope would be "Oranjestad, Aruba" or "Oranjestad, Sint Eustatius", not "Oranjestad, Netherlands". Largoplazo (talk) 13:39, 11 January 2023 (UTC)

Your point holds water! gidonb (talk) 01:27, 7 February 2023 (UTC)

I don't consider it a huge issue either way but I think one could make a case for describing it as a transcontinental country on Wikipedia, no matter how people commonly think about it. Most countries do not have overseas territories on other continents except a handful of former European colonizing countries and 20th century superpowers. It's noteworthy. Dan Carkner (talk) 17:36, 25 December 2022 (UTC)

It's a debate that is best held where the highly problematic concept of a transcontinental [corrected] country is discussed. gidonb (talk) 04:02, 11 January 2023 (UTC)

Not familiar with that term but that seems like a different concept than what is being discussed here, which relates to the scope and framing of this article as a country which (arguably) exists on different continents. Dan Carkner (talk) 04:41, 11 January 2023 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion:

• Netherlands Product Exports (2019).svg

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 15:15, 23 March 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 17 April 2023

The Netherlands isn't informally called Holland. The real name is the Kingdom of the Netherlands or Netherlands. The name Holland refers to 2 provinces, Noord-Holland & Zuid-Holland, creating the most populated area in the Netherlands. Dutchie pep (talk) 11:38, 17 April 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. M.Bitton (talk) 12:45, 17 April 2023 (UTC)

I think that it was clear that the other user was proposing that 'informally Holland,' should be removed from the article.. It would be factually incorrect to call the Netherlands 'Holland'. Here's a link for the constitution of the Netherlands, where the Kingdom of the Netherlands is informally referred to multiple times as 'the Netherlands', but not once referred to as 'Holland'. https://www.government.nl/documents/reports/2019/02/28/the-constitution-of-the-kingdom-of-the-netherlands. The first citation for the claim that the Netherlands is informally known as 'Holland' states that the Netherlands wants to brand itself as 'the Netherlands' rather than 'Holland', while the second citation explains that it would not be correct to refer to the Netherlands as 'Holland'. This would be like stating that the United Kingdom is informally called 'England' and placing that at the top of its article. GJPG (talk) 13:25, 18 April 2023 (UTC)

Such a change would be highly inappropriate. Holland is the common informal name of the Netherlands, in English, Dutch, German, French, and other Germanic and Romance languages. So much that people might be confused about what the Netherlands is if we do not mention this right away. Note that this informal name is already a special situation as in other languages Holland is the formal name for the Netherlands. We have seen these misinformed pleas many times before on this page. Being void of any merit, they were always rejected. Erratic "I don't like it" arguments do not trump consensus, policies, facts, and reality. gidonb (talk) 17:38, 1 May 2023 (UTC)

The Netherlands is not 'Holland'

'informally Holland,' should be removed from the article. It would be factually incorrect to call the Netherlands 'Holland'. Here's a link for the constitution of the Netherlands, where the Kingdom of the Netherlands is informally referred to multiple times as 'the Netherlands', but not once referred to as 'Holland'. https://www.government.nl/documents/reports/2019/02/28/the-constitution-of-the-kingdom-of-the-netherlands. The first citation for the claim that the Netherlands is informally known as 'Holland' states that the Netherlands wants to brand itself as 'the Netherlands' rather than 'Holland', while the second citation explains that it would not be correct to refer to the Netherlands as 'Holland'. This would be like stating that the United Kingdom is informally called 'England' and placing that at the top of its article. While some people might refer to the Netherlands as Holland, they are wrong to do so, and it is not remotely necessary to include this information at the start of the article, especially considering it would be false to use 'Holland' interchangeably with 'the Netherlands'. GJPG (talk) 13:46, 18 April 2023 (UTC)

Hence the term 'informally'. This has been a practice going back more than 150 years in English that the country is colloquially referred to as Holland, and since Wikipedia aims to connect people from what term they are searching to the topical article, I think it should stay. Whether it is logical from some official or etymological standpoint is not the only thing to think about. Dan Carkner (talk) 14:31, 18 April 2023 (UTC)

Less 'informally' and more 'incorrectly', I don't think anyone nowadays can get away with mistakenly calling the Netherlands 'Holland' without being corrected. If people search for Holland, they'll find Holland. At the top of Holland's article is 'This article is about a region of the Netherlands. For that country as a whole, see Netherlands.', directing them here if they were looking for the Netherlands. Unless I'm mistaken, I don't think that removing 'informally Holland' will throw off anyone's search results. Again to make the comparison, I've seen many people refer to the United Kingdom as 'England', and it goes without saying that it would be a bit silly to have 'informally England' at the top of the UK's article. Some countries such as Iran, Myanmar and DRC note past names at the top of their respective articles, however those countries officially used those names and were internationally recognised under those names, unlike the Netherlands. GJPG (talk) 19:02, 18 April 2023 (UTC)

I note that the international tourism site of our country is holland.com. I see no reason to remove it. Wikipedia reflects the world and that world is flawed. —TheDJ (talk • contribs) 20:34, 18 April 2023 (UTC)

Oh and for years I yelled “Hup Holland hup”. There is a Holland Heineken House at every event. Etc etc. —TheDJ (talk • contribs) 20:37, 18 April 2023 (UTC)

It may bother you, GJPG, but this usage is quite common and dates back quite a long time. You can't really call it an error as it's the intentional colloquial usage of large numbers of English speakers. The names of countries as known in neighboring countries is not always logical or pleasing to the residents of said country; as long as it's not derogatory I don't see an issue with representing real world usage. Dan Carkner (talk) 01:05, 19 April 2023 (UTC)

I don't think anyone nowadays can get away with mistakenly calling the Netherlands 'Holland' without being corrected. Please supply your data supporting your supposition. I think people are vastly more likely to correct "to all intensive purposes" for "to all intents and purposes" and the use of "literally" to mean "figuratively" than they are to correct "Holland". Largoplazo (talk) 12:59, 19 April 2023 (UTC)

It would be factually incorrect not to acknowledge the (factually incorrect) informal use of "Holland" by English speakers to refer to the Netherlands. Flat Earth theories are also factually incorrect, yet we have that and another entire article about it.

Also, I believe that in Turkish "Hollanda" is the primary name, as is "Ολλανδία" ("Ollandia") in Greek. But, then, the Dutch call Greece "Griekenland", which is nothing like what the Greeks call Greece, "Ελλάδα" ("Ellada"), so the Dutch don't really have standing to complain. Largoplazo (talk) 12:51, 19 April 2023 (UTC)

The premise in this section that something is wrong with Holland, while strongly implying that Dutch people lack the mental capacity to understand that words can have more than one meaning, is extremely insulting against the Dutch and, factually, complete and utter nonsense. There is nothing 'factually incorrect' about the common informal name of the Netherlands, that is widely used and recognized inside and outside the Netherlands. Zero, nil, nada! In English, Holland is only a nod more ambiguous and superfluous than the formal and even better 'Netherlands'. Hence our absolutely perfect qualification of 'informal'. We acknowledge that this is the commonly used synonym while pointing out that Holland is NOT the formal name. Netherlands is! I really do not understand what these folks, that raise this issue time and again, want to prove other than that they are confused about the Netherlands and about how language works. That some Dutchies are so intolerant against synonyms in English is really awkward, if you consider that the Dutch language does not only have synonyms, including in the case of the word 'Holland' for the Netherlands and for a region within, in Dutch words can actually mean one thing and their complete opposite. The Dutch liberal use of language and the Dutch clear and unambiguous acknowledgment that Holland means the Netherlands among other meanings (further acknowledging that in English the meaning of Holland as the Netherlands leads!) stand in stark contrast to this repeated effort here of badmouthing the Dutch as an obnoxious and unintelligent people. gidonb (talk) 18:57, 4 May 2023 (UTC)

Opening paragraph is inconsistent

"a country located in northwestern Europe with overseas territories in the Caribbean. It is the largest of four constituent countries of the Kingdom of the Netherlands"

Immediately thereafter the opening paragraph continues with "The Netherlands consists of twelve provinces".

This is a confused and confusing opening to a confused page.

Yes, the Kingdom has four constituent and autonomous parts, however the Netherlands does not. They are now two distinct entities.

As such, this Wikipedia page and the corresponding Kingdom page need to be cleaned up with factoids relating to the whole of the Kingdom relegated to that page and factoids related to what is the continental portion reported here--there is no such entity anyone refers to as "The Twelve Provinces". The highest point, for example is a mere 330 something meters above NAP, not 800 m. While the capital of Aruba is not Amsterdam.

Anyway, happy debating. These two pages are quite the mess of inconsistencies. The Netherlands consists of twelve provinc"es 24.246.52.220 (talk) 09:09, 4 May 2023 (UTC)

The Kingdom consists of 4 countries (Netherlands, Aruba, Sint Maarten and Curacao). This page is about one of those countries: the Netherlands. It does not consist of Aruba, Sint Maarten and Curacao, but it consists of the European territory and 3 islands, which ware not countries: Bonaire, Sint Eustatius and Saba. I hope that clears things up! L.tak (talk) 19:02, 4 May 2023 (UTC)

Anon, other than "Holland" again raised above, a simple homonym that should not confuse anyone but does confuse so many, this actually is complex subject matter. Others and I had already improved the article in this respect and (for others: hopefully) will read your comment as an encouragement to continue doing so. So your comments are much appreciated! Thanks also to user L.tak for sharing a Dutch narrative on this subject that also has a raison d'être and basis in (evolving) reality. gidonb (talk) 08:22, 6 May 2023 (UTC)

You're welcome! Happy to provide sources on the links between Statute, Constitution etc... Problem here of course is that the Kingdom is often (eg in international organizations) is abbreviated as Netherlands... And that the parliament of the country the Netherlands sometimes takes on Kingdom-tasks. ... And not all sources properly take into account the constitutional changes of 10-10-2010, when the Netherlands Antilles as a country were dissolved... L.tak (talk) 13:53, 6 May 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 18 August 2023

Add coordinates:

 {{Coord|52|N|6|E|type:country|display=title}} 

Wiki-ircecho (talk) 09:05, 18 August 2023 (UTC)

 Done — Paper9oll (🔔 • 📝) 06:41, 19 August 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 24 August 2023

There is an error in the density population. Simply, it is not consistent with the population and area declared. One of the three is wrong, I suppose the density. 2A00:23C8:708E:3F01:D13:D00E:760F:A958 (talk) 18:35, 24 August 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: For an edit request you have to identify exactly what is wrong and what the correct value needs to be, along with sources to substantiate it. —Sirdog (talk) 03:37, 26 August 2023 (UTC)

Too long

This page has 98kB or readable prose: this is too long and needs addressing. Given that there are already separate History, Geography and Politics articles, the obvious way to reduce the page would be to rationalize and reduce some of these in situ. Iskandar323 (talk) 17:53, 25 May 2023 (UTC)

I have again removed excessive text. Others did the same and the warning had already been removed. gidonb (talk) 10:08, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

Proposal for Netherlands vs Holland

This is my first entry on a talk page that is not my own, so I hope I do this right, but I believe the best solution to this debate would be to change "informally" to "also known by the common misnomer Holland", as similarly done on the Spanish flu page. I propose this based on this article which is linked as a source already (reference 13), and I believe this change would signify that it is not a correct name for the country but often used as a term describing the country as a whole.GrampaSwood (talk) 19:17, 26 August 2023 (UTC)

I don't think we should take a pedantic stance on it. That the Dutch government itself was using "Holland" (in English publications, I'm assuming) as recently as 2019 emphasizes how common it is. Non-prescriptivists consider however native speakers commonly say something to be correct. To acknowledge that it's informal suffices.

It seems that there are languages, such as Hungarian and Turkish, where names derived from "Holland" are the only names for the country.

Ironically, nobody's requesting that references to anything Dutch identify "Dutch" as a misnomer on the grounds that that word really means "German" (which in Dutch is "Duits" and in German is "Deutsch"), and nobody is asking us to identify and use "Netherlandish" (Dutch: "Nederlands") and "Netherlanders" (Dutch: "Nederlanders") as the real terms.

Also, see the previous discussion on the same topic from April, above. Largoplazo (talk) 23:15, 26 August 2023 (UTC)

Please get your facts correct. Both Deutsch and Dutch are derived from the same stem, but that does not mean Dutch means German. In the case of Dutch the word is derived from the medieval Netherlandic word Diets nl:Diets meaning the people - referring to the local language in the region. Arnoutf (talk) 07:33, 3 September 2023 (UTC)

Thus, a word that merely means "the people" now means something different from "the people". Just as people now use "Holland" to refer to the greater country and not just the portion in the south. Largoplazo (talk) 11:54, 3 September 2023 (UTC)

As explained many times, including under two previous headers right on this page as it presently stands, Holland is NOT a misnomer at all for the Netherlands. It's just informal in some languages, including English (the same in Dutch). In most languages it's THE formal name. Wikipedia cannot push FALSE information because some folks are confused about the Netherlands and about how language works. Reading and internalizing the line thoroughly may clear things up for you. gidonb (talk) 02:07, 27 August 2023 (UTC)

I do not disagree with Gidonb on most what is said, however, whether the name (or a derived form) is the formal name in languages other than English (or arguably Dutch as that is the language of the country - see the reference to Hellenic Republic on Greece) does not really matter, given that this is the English Wikipedia. We also not name it the low countries reflecting the formal French name Pays-Bas. Arnoutf (talk) 07:40, 3 September 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 22 September 2023

Minorities in the Netherlands includes Frisians 700,000, Jews 41,000-45,000, and Roma and Sinti 40,000. Add this information to the demographics section.

https://minorityrights.org/country/netherlands/ 103.164.138.55 (talk) 21:06, 22 September 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Pinchme123 (talk) 14:18, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 16 September 2023

I would like to move these two following sentences to two other places.

Netherlands

...

Netherlands literally means "lower countries" in reference to its low elevation and flat topography, with nearly 26% falling below sea level.[18] Most of the areas below sea level, known as polders, are the result of land reclamation that began in the 14th century.[19]

...

First place where I would like to place the first sentence. What is the current text:

1 Etymology

...

The region called the Low Countries (comprising Belgium, the Netherlands and Luxembourg) has the same toponymy. Place names with Neder, Nieder, Nedre, Nether, Lage(r) or Low(er) (in Germanic languages) and Bas or Inferior (in Romance languages) are in use in low-lying places all over Europe. In the case of the Low Countries and the Netherlands, the geographical location of the lower region has been more or less downstream and near the sea. The Romans made a distinction between the Roman provinces of downstream Germania Inferior (nowadays part of Belgium and the Netherlands) and upstream Germania Superior. The designation 'Low' returned in the 10th-century Duchy of Lower Lorraine, which covered much of the Low Countries.[32][33]

...

How I wish it were:

The region called the Low Countries (comprising Belgium, the Netherlands and Luxembourg) has the same toponymy. Place names with Neder, Nieder, Nedre, Nether, Lage(r) or Low(er) (in Germanic languages) and Bas or Inferior (in Romance languages) are in use in low-lying places all over Europe. Indeed, Netherlands literally means "lower countries" in reference to its low elevation and flat topography, with nearly 26% falling below sea level.[18]

More precisely, in the case of the Low Countries and the Netherlands, the geographical location of the lower region has been more or less downstream and near the sea [Please clarify: I'm not an English native speaker, so I may not understand the syntax well. But, I feel like something is missing here. The geographical location of the lower region has been more or less downstream and near the sea, depending on what? That is, it has been more or less downstream and near the sea, but what determines this proximity to the sea to be more or less extended? Is it just a question of geographical terminology, that is toponymy, or is there a geological reason for all this? In am other article, that is Land reclamation in the Netherlands, it is explained that in the Netherlands, in the past, between 500 BC and 500 AD, due to the fall in the sea level, some lands were exposed to a rate of 5-10 meters per year. In the same article it has been also talked about erosion of the seacoast. Could the reason for the low-lying area moving relative to the sea be one of two things? However, all this discussion can also be placed on the discussion page.]. The Romans made a distinction between the Roman provinces of downstream Germania Inferior (nowadays part of Belgium and the Netherlands) and upstream Germania Superior. The designation 'Low' returned in the 10th-century Duchy of Lower Lorraine, which covered much of the Low Countries.[32][33]

Second place where I would like to place the second sentence. What is the current text:

3 Geography

...

The Netherlands is geographically very low relative to sea level and is considered a flat country, with about 26% of its area[18] and 21% of its population[118] below sea level. The European part of the country is for the most part flat, with the exception of foothills in the far southeast, up to a height of no more than 321 metres, and some low hill ranges in the central parts. Most of the areas below sea level are caused by peat extraction or achieved through land reclamation. Since the late 16th century, large polder areas are preserved through elaborate drainage systems that include dikes, canals and pumping stations. Nearly 17% of the country's land area is reclaimed.[citation needed]

...

How I wish it were:

3 Geography

...

The Netherlands is geographically very low relative to sea level and is considered a flat country, with about 26% of its area[18] and 21% of its population[118] below sea level. Indeed, regarding the flat parts, we have that the European part of the country, with the exception of foothills in the far southeast, up to a height of no more than 321 metres, and some low hill ranges in the central parts, is for the most part flat. Regarding the lower parts, instead, we have that most of the areas below sea level are caused by peat extraction or achieved through land reclamation. Indeed, most of the areas below sea level, known as polders, are the result of land reclamation that began in the 14th century.[19] And nearly 17% of the country's land area is reclaimed.[citation needed] Because of these, since the late 16th century, these large polder areas are preserved through elaborate drainage systems that include dikes, canals and pumping stations.

...

Thanks for your help and for listening, have a nice day, Simone Aiello (talk) 16:29, 16 September 2023 (UTC)

 Partly done: For the two sentences you've requested to be moved out of the introduction, I have not done this because they are important summations of what content is found in the body of this article. I do not think repeating them in the body of the article would be beneficial either.

But, you also inserted a large note into one of the paragraphs you copied into this request, asking after that paragraph's confusing language. I have rephrased several sentences of that paragraph, to hopefully put information in a more logical order that clarifies exactly what is lower than what, and why the terminology refers to them in this way.

You ask another question in that interjected note, about how land reclamation might be related to this discussion about 'lower' lands. I do not know about this and will leave it to others who might know better, but my suspicion is that it isn't. My suspicion is that the naming is solely traced to the old Roman terminology; hopefully my rewrite of the paragraph makes this clearer.

-- Pinchme123 (talk) 22:07, 12 October 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 8 October 2023

Reference 276 is not working anymore. I have found another source for it, please change the URL to this one:

https://www.aanbiedingenfolders.nl/blog/de-geschiedenis-van-mosterd-268#:~:text=Rond%20de%2016e%20eeuw%20ontstonden%20er%20in%20Nederland%20mosterdmolens%20die%20door%20middel%20van%20windkracht%20mosterdzaad%20maalden.%20De%20Zaanstreek%20werd%20een%20populair%20centrum%20van%20de%20Nederlandse%20mosterdproductie. MelonFly33 (talk) 11:34, 8 October 2023 (UTC)

 Partly done: I used an archive of the original instead. -- Pinchme123 (talk) 22:15, 12 October 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 6 November 2023

The right information pane is missing the ISO 3166 code for the Netherlands: NL. To my knowldge, there is anything controversial about this change. I don't see anything mentioned on the talk page.

If you look at a similar page, like for [Slovenia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slovenia), you can see where it sits between Calling code and Internet TLD

The two-letter NL code would link to this page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_3166-2:NL Zhelu (talk) 21:11, 6 November 2023 (UTC)

 Note: Template:Infobox political division doesn't have the "iso3166code" parameter. M.Bitton (talk) 22:00, 6 November 2023 (UTC)

You'll find it at the article on the sovereign nation, Kingdom of the Netherlands. This article's just about the European component of that. Largoplazo (talk) 23:12, 6 November 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: per the provided explanations. M.Bitton (talk) 13:04, 7 November 2023 (UTC)

Dutch Sign Language (SLN)

The official languages of The Netherlands include Dutch Sign Language (SLN) since the first of July, 2021. This information has not been translated into the English website of the Dutch government yet. The link to the corresponding (Dutch) article on the site is this: https://www.rijksoverheid.nl/onderwerpen/erkende-talen/de-nederlandse-gebarentaal-ngt I believe this would not be controversial due to the section in question being the official languages of The Netherlands and this having been made official by the Dutch government as of the aforementioned date. Liliumsera (talk) 12:37, 11 November 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 19 November 2023

The main minorities in the country are Frisians 700,000, Jews 41,000-45,000, and Roma and Sinti 40,000. Add this information to the demographics section.

Source: https://minorityrights.org/country/netherlands/ 5.180.179.5 (talk) 08:12, 19 November 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: You made this same request 2 months ago and it was declined, please address the concerns there – opening a new request won't change anything. What does "main minorities" even mean? Tollens (talk) 09:47, 19 November 2023 (UTC)

Edit request for infobox Religious data

Christianity should be 34.2% , not 37.5%. Delete the line "3.3% other Christian", not in source. If you do this, the total will be 100%. 2A02:1810:BC3A:D800:2C98:387B:A549:4647 (talk) 15:03, 9 December 2023 (UTC)

The numbers given now reflect the source. Largoplazo (talk) 17:37, 9 December 2023 (UTC)