Talk:Obong University

Attn Jclemens

That's not up to you whether church is capitalized or not. YOU didn't write the article, that was ME. YOU probably don't even know anything about the churches of Christ - I do. I can find the manual of style just as easily as you can, and when I click on capitalization of religions (et al) it does not say that I have to capitalize church in church of Christ. So you just monitor the articles you have contributed significantly to or completely written, and I'll do the same.

Jlrich (talk) 19:05, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for making it clear that this is an ownership issue. Churches of Christ is a proper noun, and is to be capitalized in every Wikipedia article in which it appears, because regardless of what you or I think, it's an encyclopedia and adheres to common usage. Jclemens (talk) 19:07, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

Common usage, regardless of what you think, also includes not capitalizing church. The church is not to overshadow to one that paid the price for the church, which is why it is left uncapitalized. Some people capitalize it, some don't. I don't. And I wrote this article, so it's going to stay uncapitalized. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jlrich (talk • contribs) 19:15, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

Here's the Problem

Okay, I read what you added to my talk. Here's the problem...you're not contributing constructively. Rather, you're being nit picky. There's a difference in constructive contribution and what you are doing.

And that mess about "what you have done makes the article harder to read", that's one of the most ridiculous things I've ever heard. I could see it if I had written the whole article in upper or lower case letters, but I didn't. I didn't capitalize one letter because of my beliefs. It's not something that is a big deal. You're the one making a big deal about it. Why don't you move on and start pestering other Wiki users, because that seems to be all you do. Jlrich (talk) 19:28, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

Would you like to solicit a neutral third party opinion on the topic? Certainly seems more productive than edit warring. I'm quite familiar with the argument, don't agree with you, and won't ever agree with you. I've seen too many church signs ALL IN CAPS because of this disagreement, but that's not the point. Individual congregations can put whatever they want on the sign, but this is not a CofC, it's an encyclopedia, and that means common rules of English usage prevail, which include capitalizing church in the title. Please, invite one or ten editors to take a look at this and render a judgement between my position and yours. Furthermore, it's been going on for a while within the context of Wikipedia, and the position I follow has been adopted as consensus to date, hence my willingness to submit to other editors' inputs: I strongly suspect that any random editor will agree with my position, rather than yours. Jclemens (talk) 19:47, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

Oh, and FYI, those messages on your talk page are standardized language--you can see all of them at WP:UWT if you like. They're not meant to be condescending, but really to point to the wikipedia way of doing things in a consistent, even-toned manner. Jclemens (talk) 19:48, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

Okay, bub, you're really taking this too far. I really don't appreciate this. You don't have the right to do what you're doing. Until there is something in Wikipedia's guidelines that specifically tells me that I have to capitalize church in "church of Christ", then I'm not gonna do it. And I wouldn't do it even then. I know people that have been to both the Mt. Morris congregation as well as the Rivergate congregation. You do not have the right to change the capitalization in their names. But why should that hinder you, you've already usurped your authority anyway. I am really trying not to lose my temper here, but you are making that very difficult. I am trying my hardest to model myself after The One that I'm supposed to. Why can't you just let this go? You really need to just drop this. You are not the capitalization police so I don't see why you feel that you are supposed to do this. This bothers me not only because I wrote the article but because of personal beliefs. I don't tell Baptists or Methodists what they have to capitalize or what they can't capitalize. So you shouldn't either. Jlrich (talk) 05:27, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

I agree, I do not have the right to change the capitalization in a name. Nor did I. Names in English have Capital Letters. I am sympathetic to heartfelt religious beliefs, and I want to relieve you of the necessity of acting against them: you do not have to capitalize them if it goes against your belief system to do so--I will be happy to fix them to conform to English usage. All you have to do is stop changing them back, and we're gone. Since you've reverted me again, I've asked for a third opinion; we'll see what other editors have to say about the matter, and I will abide by the consensus. Jclemens (talk) 05:48, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

Third opinion

Just saw the listing on the 3O page for this. The fact that it's capitalized all over the Churches of Christ article, I'm going to say that it should be capitalized here too. The link is about a specific group called the Churches of Christ; "churches of Christ" seems to be a thinly veiled way of saying Christianity. I think it should be capitalized. — HelloAnnyong ^{(say whaaat?!)} 05:54, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

Per the manual of style on capital letters it should go with a capital letter. This because Churches in this case is part of the name of the movement. Species8473 (talk) 11:25, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

Requested more opinions

So we'll wait to see what others say. I will leave "Churches of Christ" as is FOR NOW, but Rivergate Church of Christ will be changed back. I attended this congregation previously, and its name will be reverted back to church of Christ. Jlrich (talk) 06:08, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia guidelines for capital letter usage cover this subject, more specifically the religion section. Proper nouns are described as requiring capitalization, though no specific examples are given for church names. My individual belief is that the preference of the named organization should apply. Since this preference is considered in doubt, or irrelevant, one way to proceed may be to apply a principle given within the religion section of the overall Manual of Style article, i.e., to observe a preferred capitalization "when directly quoting" texts that include it (emphasis mine). —Adavidb 11:50, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

Here is the real problem: whether a small group of us agree on the Capitalization (or not) is greatly overshadowed by all the readers of the Article who are also potential editors who will make style changes to provide the "proper capitalization as they understand it." While I am personally not part of the churches of Christ, I do know enough about their roots to know that not using caps makes sense in this situation. Is there a way to explicitly state the reason why the normal convention of capitalization is NOT used, so that random readers of the page do not "FIX" the "problem?"

Jlrich, thanks for writing the article and seeking to make it a quality piece. Did you miss the note at the bottom of every edit page: "If you don't want your writing to be edited mercilessly or redistributed for profit by others, do not submit it?" Your work is a donation to the Wikipedia Community. I hope that together, we'll be able to address your concerns. The Community commitment to a neutral point of view certainly requires a good faith effort to do that. Is it possible to claim an NPOV if memebers of the group covered in the article are offended by it? I doubt it. Should members of the group be sesnitive to the posibility that their desire to be different is not always understood by casual readers? John Park (talk) 12:32, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

One option would be to add a html comment to the article, asking editors to not change a certain part. For example: <!-- please do not.. -->. And would it continue to happen too frequently it is possible to semi-protect the page to prevent anonymous edits. Nothing of the sort needs to be done at this point though. Species8473 (talk) 13:02, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

Jlrich, I'm confused. In your post above, you wrote "Rivergate Church of Christ." Yet you want it to appear as "Rivergate church of Christ" in the article? — HelloAnnyong ^{(say whaaat?!)} 12:52, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

It's quite obvious he wants it to be Rivergate church of Christ. Species8473 (talk) 13:02, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

"Church" in "Rivergate Church of Christ" should be capitalized for the simple reason that the church's own website (Please see: www.rivergatechurch.org) also capitalizes the word, which is in line with wikipedia's manual of style. The claim that the word will be changed to an uncapitalized format at a later, unknown date, is just that, an unsourced claim from an editor and therefore should be sourced in accordance with WP:SOURCES, and WP:CRYSTALBALL. — Dorvaq (talk) 15:27, 18 June 2008 (UTC)