Talk:Screamo/Archive 1

2005 conversation

I probably wouldn't be of much help in writing anything about screamo but the introduction paragraph, particularly that second half, needs to be re-written. Hoagssculptor 04:30, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

I've deleted the entire last part of the page, its an opinion editorial piece, about the degredation of punk culture, not something that belongs in an encyclopedia entry about what screamo music is.

I'm confused here. In 1995, Portraits of Past was considered a hardcore band/"emo"/etc. Yet the people who created this page claim that modern "screamo" bands have no connection to hardcore even if these "screamo" bands are playing music that is identical to the mid 90s emo/hardcore sound? Pg 99 steals so much from PoP style. All of this lacks a consistent logic and denies history. It's just as bad as pop-punk and indie rock being tied to the history of the emo/hardcore scene of the 90s. If some of you bother to go through your back issues of HaC, you'll see the term's sparing use as nothing more than hyperbole. "Chaotic hardcore" indeed. Need we not forget that Orchid wasn't doing anything that Uranus, Drift, and One Eyed God Prophecy was doing years before? This is just sad.

This is ridiculous. I have both Rites of spring, swing kids, embrace, Envy, Saetia, and Thursday, Thrice, and From Autumn Ashes on my Ipod. I know what the genre is now, what it used to be, and I know what bands like Circle take Square are doing. The fact is, like the term Gay, the meaning of the word has changed in modern times. However, the distinction between what most people think of Screamo now, and what people who know what screamo was. Is new screamo is not a movement. Thursday and Underoath do not share the same influences (infact thursday calls Husker Du, and at the drive in influences which are more closeley tied as early 90's emo-core, post hard core ). Rather The term screamo is a catch call phrase that is applied to any band with screamed emotional lyrics, heavey guitars, and use metal core break downs. I've acknowledged this in the article, someone else can clean it up but the fact is guitarworld, and most music magazine call bands like Poison the well Screamo now, whether or not you think its "correct". As a nuetral article this should acknowledge all things screamo refers to or two articles should be made, that talks about Screamo as a movement in the 80s and 90s and now. If nessacary this should... Go to higher ups. Also this article needs citations. Fourfa can be used as a source for most of the article. I've added in the section of what the term screamo is sometimes used for, with out editing the majority of the article. If someone else wants to clean up, my grammar it might be worth it.

stop making things up. Let screamo be what people think screamo is. Let hardcore be what people think hardcore. Music was not meant to be over anaylized in genres, and ripped apart. Just because underoath is "comercial", doesnt mean they arent good. Let music be music and stop over anaylizing everything good there is in this world.-written by a 16 year old girl

"Next, underoath will be Classical music as well, because a group of teenagers will declare it that"

It's not overanalyzation of music at all. Screamo is a specific thing, a specific kind of music. When people wrongly say bands like Underoath are screamo, and then they are told they're not, they all get defensive and say "Genres don't matter anyways." Genres are used to specify a very certain kind of music. Just because your favorite Hot Topic/MTV2 band isn't a legitimate screamo band doesn't mean there isn't a set definition to what screamo is. It just means you don't know what it is. - Firexstorm

Screamo is a very definite genere. It's not "people think it is" it's what it is. This isn't existentialism here. If you don't know any of the listed bands, chances are you don't know what screamo is. Underoath is alternative rock with screaming. That doesn't make them screamo. - Kidgorgeous

I think the most legitimate defense of the use of this genre title is in that all these bands are linked by a shared history, aka Hardcore and specifically pre-Sunny Day Real Estate style emo/emocore (I'm not getting into that destinction). I remember going to a punk party a few years ago and half shamefully admitted I have been mostly been listening to screamo, then probably listed Saetia and Hot Cross. The kid I was talking to laughed and simply laughed, agreed that those bands were good, and said "I listened to screamo when it was still called emo" by which he meant way back in 97 (can we remember that far?) before emo became a mainsteam phenomena. Now I am not saying that a band like underoath isn't punk rock or whatever, I am saying that they have more shared history with a band like Thursday who are called "extremo" or "screamo" in terms of what kind of emo heritage if any I'd give them. I would probably just out and out call them metalcore. Jacib 12:51, 12 May 2005 (UTC)

More importantly this article needs a lot of work, because it is mostly saying what it isn't and then listing bands, without offering context or history. Jacib 12:51, 12 May 2005 (UTC)

If the entire world thinks that Thursday is screamo, except for a few stuck up music genre elitests, then who is right? If everybody calls crap like Atreyu and Throwdown Hardocre even though it's metalcore, then why are they wrong, if EVERYBODY except for a few identify them as hardcore?

So if in another thousand years, after civilizations experiences another dark age, and archelogoists find the ruins of the Sistine Chapel ceiling, and deicde it was a comic book, does that mean it was a comic book? GiveBlood 9:37 AM, July 11, 2005.

This is what screamo was first, and what it still is. Everyone just keeps mislabeling it as something it's not. chainy July 12th, 2005

Surely the person who first coins a word is the person who is using it correctly as they are the person who has come up with the word and the meaning. Therefore Screamo should be a genre defined in sound in the same way today and in the future as it was originally meant. If i was to try and redefine the word "Hello" on wikipedia say as a trem refering to the construction of a tank, I think that their would be great outrage. Therefore why should people feel that they can tell people off for being elitest for being outraged at someone trying to redefine something that means alot to them. Most the people here are only trying to define the genre in the way it is meant to be (the original way) because they are truly passionate about the genre, and don't want to see it warped into something their not passionate about. Plus sub genre names are meant to help people to find very particular styles of music, and these days people are trying to use it to define a very broad range of music which all sound greatly diffrent, and can all be described by other genre names. A) this completely defeats the point of subgenres and B) its a bit greedy to want to use more than one sub genre to describe a band (unless of course their a fusion of genres). -Lester Drake September 14th 2005

this article is written so poorly... that i don't even know how to complete that sentence. by merely following the links (as we wikipedia users do) you will find that there are all sorts of inaccuracies and contradictions in it, as well as the many broken wikipedia rules. should it be deleted? Dreamer.redeemer 22:36, 12 October 2005 (UTC)

I had an idea regarding this page, which I have detailed at Talk:List_of_screamo_groups#What_to_do_with_this_page.21. I was wondering if you could take a look and tell me what you think. I'd like to clean up these articles a lot and I think this might be a step in the right direction. Alexforcefive 22:38, 21 December 2005 (UTC)

"misused very commonly"

well, i do believe that screamo is totally misused!!!!!!! it doesn't have anything to do with EMO!! yeah maybe it's lyrics is close to EMO... but hell no, it's not EMO... some thinks screamo came from SCREAM and EMO... no it's not... screamo are the bands from the branch of hardcore in 1990's... and it's totally cool... hearing screams from the beginning till the end... if some thinks ATERYU is sreamo, better think twice!! =p ====> i'm only a 14 years old high school girl, and if you think that i'm wrong, so sorry.. just tell me! ym= samurai_x0718 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.1.53.57 (talk) 10:40, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

If a use is very common, who is to say it is a "misuse" rather than an alternate meaning? What are we, the Académie Punkaise? -- Jmabel | Talk July 8, 2005 17:58 (UTC)

you can call the stuff that comes out of you back end crap or turd, but it doesnt change a thing

ok you guys must have no life coming on to some website talking about whart screamo is and isnt. you guys probally dont know what screamo is you guys are probally one of those posers who go on google and type in screamo bands and how to be emo and follow the instructions but you guys are probally computer geeks and emmo isnt a style its a type of music for all you posers and fags who think emos a stle

"Screamo" is a generic term first used widely in publications such as Heartattack and Maximum Rock N'Roll to describe bands from the late 90's such as Orchid, Reversal of Man, Jeromes Dream, etc. that basically were playing what could be called "chaotic hardcore." Because the term "screamo" is a much better catchphrase for larger publications, it was easily adopted and widely misused by other publications such as Alternative Press, SPIN, etc. to describe bands that basically play either mid-90's style emo/emotional hardcore such as Thursday or even bands such as Atreyu that play dumbed down metallic hardcore. The word "screamo" is a completely stupid term, and one that I would go so far as to call derogatory when attempting to describe the bands that were initially referred to (see above) using this categorization. Nevertheless, the term has long been co-opted for use in the jargon of the general public and as such has lost any significant meaning when used to describe anything. Think of it like this, "grunge" was a word used to describe bands as different as Nirvana and Pearl Jam. It literally holds no meaning anymore, nor did it really ever. By the way, everyone that has posted here previously should seriously stay in school and learn how to use the English language correctly as I assume that is what language you predominately speak. There is a big difference in meaning between there, their, and they're. I saw one of these words used above correctly and then again incorrectly in the SAME SENTENCE. If you want anyone to take your discourse seriously, please learn proper grammar. -Anonymous

Blessthefall are a mega screamo band!

let me guess.... all these people critisizeing are like 14 15 16 yrs old. or they just like to argue. it's music you like or you dont like it.

I agree some of the arguing has been biased and what not but you have to realize that it must go through this. This is wikipedia, the final article must be completely neutral and objective, there must be a discussion in order to come to a right conclusion. You can't just erase what screamo is supposed to be and classify it with bands that sound very differently from the original screamo bands, neither can you put "music is music you like it, you like it" or "if everyone says the earth is flat, then the earth is flat!!" on a wikipedia article. It has to be made out of facts, and if there are GOOD -LOGIC- opinions doubting those facts then they should be taken in consideration too. (: —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.98.38.154 (talk) 17:49, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

does majority usage determine meaning?

People who say it does might have a point, but you reduce the term's effectiveness at describing a certain kind of music when you simplify it to being based solely on vocals. As far as I'm concerned if it's not lo-fi it's not screamo. -Liam

Of course it doesn't, it that was the rule then everything with distortion would be death metal or slit your wrist stuff. XdiabolicalX 14:43, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

It shouldn't, but sadly it does historically. If the majority say pagans are evil non believers and not a word for farmer then guess what? Yeah, as much as its an annoyance I would have to say majority does dictate, however it should be the job of those recording to properly define to re educate the misinformed and point them in another direction. 67.161.166.93 06:08, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Yes it shouldn't, but that's basically what's happening with Metal these days, where mainstream bands mixing various styles get passed off as "Metal bands" for their harsh vocals and distorted, heavy riffs, even though most incorporate more hardcore/emo/indie than actual metal. Let me put this another way, since when does Metal ONLY have harsh(scream/growl/screech) vocals. Black Sabbath, Rainbow, Rush, Judas Priest, early Scorpions; definitive metal, no screams there(Metallica is Thrash). My point is that we have sub-genres so a faster shouting type of metal is labeled thrash metal and a less structured, chaotic metal with tortured vocals is called Black Metal; because it deviates from the original genre's meaning by a lot. What I'd like to see on this article, is more band interaction and song structure details. Sure, most emo gives a lot of spotlight to the singer(s), which is fine to mention, but a clear(unbiaised) view as to what the instruments usually do would be good.

"as a kind of crescendo element, a sonic weapon to be trotted out when the music and lyrics (every bit as evolved and autobiographically sincere as emo's were) reach a particular emotional pitch"

See what I mean? Some do not use screams as crescendo, and have that type of singing throughout, while others only as verses, or only in sudden time shifts and yes SOME that use it as a climax of a dynamic singing part. Its not as emotionally linked all the time as this guy claims it, and some emo lyrics are more metaphorical than literate, while other bands write lyrics that don't make any sense on purpose, like psychedelia used to do in the 60s/70s.

Trying to inject a small dose of reality into these endless genre debates... majority usage does in fact denote meaning. How exactly did you think any word acquired its meaning? And do words change meaning over time? Yes, yes they do. Now, there are exceptions. Technical definitions do not conform to majority usage or that of the lay. So, to get to the point, give me a sourced technical definition of screamo or for the love of god shut up. Everyone is tired of people saying Genre X is like that because I say so, and if you disagree you don't know what you're talking about. Blackmetalbaz (talk) 23:55, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Majority usage cannot be allowed to denote meaning. Almost everyone calls dimetredons dinosaurs, and they're not. People call algae moss, but it's not. Screamo is a word that was used first to describe a specific style of hardcore punk. Later popular press used it to label something entirely different. The first definition is what should still stand. If it doesn't, then we'll have to make a new article on "skram" or something to describe what used to be called screamo. There can't be an article that is about two completely different things at the same time. -punkrockrunner —Preceding unsigned comment added by Punkrockrunner (talk • contribs) 01:42, 3 July 2008 (UTC)

Any sourced information?

This article doesn't cite any sources anywhere, and the "screamo being classified as hardcore" section is an editorial page. Since several people have mentioned that the term and its uses has been tossed about in magazines, they should be cited on the article and any claims should be attributed to the sources themselves. I really know and care nothing about punk or hardcore or screamo or any indie subculture whatsoever, but this is a really bad article. It reminds me of the letters section in maximum rock and roll. Wikipedia is not a source for punk point acquisition. Jimmyq2305 00:16, 4 October 2006 (UTC)

Fourfa should be cited now- Oct 2006

Didn't NME invent the term 'screamo' to take the piss out of all the bands who scream badly in their songs?Nightside eclipse 17:57, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

Of course they didn't. NME is toss. XdiabolicalX 01:05, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Screamo vs. Hardcore

Hardcore is a chaotic form of music usually incorporating rythem guitar and frentic instuments (drums, guitar, screaming). Whereas screamo has more melodic parts in it which is its affiliation with emo. - Gellister

Hardcore isn't chaotic in the least. Diabolical 14:07, 10 January 2007 (UTC)

That depends on what genre of hardcore you refer to. Metalcore usually is just frenzied screaming like norma jean whereas Melodic hardcore is obviously melodic. Hardcore Punk is generally chaotic - Gellister

Sign you comments using four tildes ~~~~, Metalcore isn't technically Hardcore, it's Metalcore. Not to mention there are numerous different styles within Metalcore itself which makes it to broad to define specifically. Most Hardcore Punk is simply structured. Screamo is really quite easy to find a simple structure in too. Diabolical 17:34, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

Screamo has hardcore roots it was originally called hardcore emo but then they shortened it to emo... then when emo became the new stuff like Armor for SLeep and Dashboard Confessional (which is called post-indie emo) we transferred the name to screamo so yes screamo has hardcore roots but hardcore is still much more simple. Screamo has a ton of emo elements but nice try. Keep studying. Gellister 18:11, 17 January 2007 (UTC)Gellister

No one changed the names, are you trying to say there is some sort of presiding council over Emo & Screamo? Hardcore emo was bands such as Heroin. Emo was used almost 5 or 6 years before these bands started. And you've just made up a new term which doesn't make sense in "post-indie emo", there is however a sub-sect that can be labelled "post-emo indie" though it was in existance from the early 1990s and is not what you elude to. Diabolical 00:14, 18 January 2007 (UTC)

Actually yeah. I am actually very well studied in the history of emo and I know where all these things come from. Emo was originally what we refer to now as "screamo" because stupid people like you believe that a genre never gets changed in meaning over time (look at what metal is concidered now as opposed to twenty years ago). Emo was orginally from DC and moved to florida and then to San Francisco. It was an offshoot of hardcore that included screaming and soft sung vocals. Then as post-emo indie (I accidentally switched it up earlier) came out in midwest (hence it's nickname mid-western emo) came out and gained it's popularity much more quickly than regular emo so the term "emo" got transferred to mean post-emo indie. Now we refer to what was originally emo as "screamo". Better study up more buddy because i seem to have a lot more behind my facts than you! Gellister 18:14, 19 January 2007 (UTC)Gellister

Yeah, because Rites Of Spring really sound like what's now called Screamo. Diabolical 21:18, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

Unfortunately yes that's what most people would call it but I recognize that Rites of Spring falls under other emo related genres (aren't they hardcore emo?). I was just trying to distinguish how people came up with the idea that stuff like Jimmy Eat World and Spitalfield are "emo" becuase history says that they legally are just post-emo indie. Sorry if I offended you I was having a bad day. I'm willing to take knowledge if it seems legit Gellister 22:43, 19 January 2007 (UTC)Gellister I have what I call "emo days" where I pretty much hate the world and today at school was one. Sorry for the rudeness. Gellister 22:47, 19 January 2007 (UTC)

Personally I would say that Screamo and Hardcore have a similar relationship as Pop-punk and emo. Of course, in screamo, the breakdowns are used more sporadically. Kung Foo 11:25, 13 May 2007 (UTC)

uh no gellister, Rites of Spring are emotional hardcore punk, shortened emocore. Then their are bands based on this genre that aren't exactly hardcore punk, like Moss Icon,were emo. Hardcore emo is emo with screaming and a few more changes, but same lyrics. When indie emo came, people called a revival of hardcore emo, not emotional hardcore, screamo. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.169.189.82 (talk) 07:22, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

Opinion Vs. Fact

In my opinion a genre is to be determined by the owner of the CD, or by the band. I don't think you can really specifically LABLE a type of music. When you get into the sub-genre's and shit, then you aren't really getting anywhere... Your just telling me that its a certain type of music.

Itunes likes to try to tell me that AILD (As I Lay Dying) is Alternative & Punk, but I totally disagree. I believe AILD to be a posthardcore, metalcore band.

you can't LABLE music anymore than you can LABLE a person. Rawr I'm Scene. 05:00, 24 February 2007 (UTC)Demonhunter10

And you can't spell, but I'm sure that in no way invalidates your point. Blackmetalbaz (talk)

That's like saying an indie band putting grindcore as their Myspace genre makes them grindcore, but it doesn't. Just because the band is uninformed about their genre, does not make them right. Ambrosia- 16:13, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

yeah, like the poeple that think that AFI is emo, just cuz of their hair (which isn't emo even)

Discontinuity between articles

There is a disconnect between this article and List of screamo groups. There are bands listed here that are not listed there. On top of that, the east coast scene of the late 90s, early 00s has basically been ignored in this article while listed on the other article (Saetia, Circle Takes the Square, City of Caterpillar, Orchid, etc). Unfortunately, sourcing for this sort of information is hard to come by, and this article already lacks sources.

Also, I feel that the lead should acknowledge the popular appropriation of the term. It isn't wikipedia's place to decide what is The True Screamo when there are verifiable sources labeling pop-bands as screamo. I think having an article about the underground genre is find, but the paragraph about "misconceptions" seems like someone's personal opinion, as opposed to verifiable research.

Finally, the paragraph about rare records seems off topics. It could easily be made concise, maybe a sentence or two. Anyway, just a few thoughts.-Andrew c 00:36, 18 April 2007 (UTC)

Note

I don't know if it matters to anyone who regularly visits this page, but a bunch of screamo band articles recently got pinged as A7's. If this genre intends to continue having much of a presence on Wikipedia, someone is going to have to start digging up some sources on the screamo underground. Chubbles 23:00, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

origin

i thougth that screamo is something like emocore (emotive hardcore punk) mixed with chaotic hardcore and grindcore —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.139.30.225 (talk) 17:28, August 25, 2007 (UTC)

it is... at least that's what i thought --Sheish 6 Sheish (talk) 03:19, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

TotallyDisputed

I tagged this as factually incorrect because someone has turned it into a fanboy's opinon piece. I guess we're just going to have to wait until the books are published about screamo for this article to be worth a damn. Chubbles 16:56, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

Who would write a book on an obscure hardcore punk subgenre?69.249.253.77 00:21, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

OR

the page still contains a lot of OR and needs to be sourced. The GUITAR WORLD article may be useful, regardless of its poor writing and factual inaccuracies some which border on WP:REDFLAG. but it does not back up the OR claims and certainly can't remedy the POV problems. --Neon white 00:00, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

ask

Johntegrity. he knows what needs to be done. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.8.59.109 (talk) 20:13, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

nevermind. i was wrong. it was not his time. others must guide screamo wiki now. farewell. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.8.59.109 (talk) 21:53, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

Screamo article plagurized the "Emo" article

Regardless of how short this article is, I noticed that it plagurized the "emo" article. The place where the author describes the "San Diego" hardcore scene and the New York/New Jersey scene and the CBGBs was taken right from the "emo" article, with slight modifications too slight to be recognized as original. Look it up for yourself.

24.2.43.248 (talk) 17:55, 23 November 2007 (UTC)Kellentaco

There is no ownership of articles on wikipedia, therefore there can be no plagiarism. Considering screamo has it's historical roots in emo it's no surprise that the articles have similar history sections. --Neon white (talk) 19:16, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

New to it

So, I was a fan of Hardcore Punk (hardcore or punk for you guys that can't figure that out..) and bands like SSD, Black Flag, and Die Kreuzen. Recently, I got into bands like Saetia, Envy, Circle Takes the Square, Gospel (I think they can be catogorized as screamo, anyway) Iwouldsetmyselfonfireforyou, pg.99 and etc. So, to clear everything up. THOSE are screamo bands. They're are at least four hundred others you can listen to. Most of them are from the mid-90s probably.

Underoath and Thursday are pop-core, a pop post-hardcore genre. But then again, you can also call Underoath metalcore. Still not close to an emo band. So, I just got into it, and I already knew what it was... If stupid scenekids (aka "emo" kids) would stop saying its screamo, they're wouldn't be so much confusion.. 66.204.133.158 (talk) 14:50, 14 December 2007 (UTC)Hunter

Not sure what your point is. --Neon white (talk) 20:19, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

i totaly agree with Hunter --Sheish 6 Sheish (talk) 03:22, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

Stupidness

Although old hardcore punk music was actually pretty good, it unfortunately changed into the post-hardcore genre. My point? I'm reccomending that the screamo article be merged into the post-hardcore genre article as screamo is post-hardcore. Blizzard Beast ^$ODIN$ 23:14, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Well, you're completly WRONG, screamo is NOT post-hardcore, two very different generes, post-hardcore has a more lighter sound, while it is very "mainstreem", to call it somehow. Screamo is more heavier and takes influences from other "odd" music, like grindcore or jazz, screamo is to emo what mathcore is to metalcore--Sheish 6 Sheish (talk) 03:54, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

well, all the emotional hardcore bands +Fugazi,Quicksand,At the Drive In,Drive like Jehu, Hot Water Music Braid, and Texas is the reason are post-hardcore, and they aren't "very mainstream". Originally, post-hardcore was underground.Don't tell me Fugazi sounds "mainstreem". blizzard, that makes no sense. What does ur 1st statement have to do with the 2nd? Nothing. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.169.189.82 (talk) 10:10, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

Merger proposal

Screamo should be merged into the post-hardcore article per Text and Overlap. The two articles should be deleted really, but that's another matter. Blizzard Beast ^$ODIN$ 23:25, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

These are both notable and very seperate articles, i can't see much in particular that links them. You will need to provide a better reason for proposing this. These pages clearly do not contain the same info, therefore claiming there is an overlap is false. --neonwhite user page talk 05:41, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

I'm with neonwhite on this.Inhumer (talk) 17:26, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

• Oppose merger. Used in different contexts to describe separate, but at times overlapping, musical characteristics. Chubbles (talk) 18:04, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

• Oppose per Chubbles. ~Ambrosia- ^talk 20:36, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

• Oppose merger. Post-Hardcore involves much more singing, while Screamo is focused entirely on screaming, with very little vocals. Two noticeably different musical genres. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Coocooforcocopuffs (talk • contribs) 23:35, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

• Strong Support - per text and overlap. What don't you people get? Screamo is a sub genre of post-hardcore. Per Text the Screamo page has such a short article that it should be merged into post-hardcore. Maybe not so much on overlap but look at what Chubbles said: "Used in different contexts to describe separate, but at times overlapping, musical characteristics." Well gee! DUH!!! "at times overlapping" is a good enough reason for a merger plus the fact that Screamo is a short article and a sub genre of post-hardcore. I'm not asking the articles to be moved, only that the Screamo page should be merged into a small sectiong of the post-hardcore page as a sub-genre. Many music pages do this. Blizzard Beast ^$ODIN$ 00:29, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

It's already been made clear that the text, quite clearly does not overlap. Neither article so much as mentions the other. There is no sourced info linking these two subjects in any way. Neither article is a stub both are of substantial length. --neonwhite user page talk 02:55, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

• Comment I believe that it is possible that the proposer's personal distase for this music is interfering with his appraisal of the situation. Particularly, the statement that "The two articles should be deleted really, but that's another matter" and that it was "unfortunate" that post-hardcore followed punk rock give me pause in considering the legitimacy of this merger proposal. I could possibly understand an emo-screamo merger, but I do think there's a significant body of material on both such that they merit separate articles. Chubbles (talk) 02:39, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

It's unecessaty to speculate on motivations. If it is based on a personal POV then experienced editors will likely note the lack of valid reason and oppose a merge. --neonwhite user page talk 02:57, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

• Oppose merger. This is a real definition of screamo: Loud music (that is often chaotic and somewhat uncontrolled) that in many cases, include lyrics that deal with depression, stress, murder, and other related topics, with most of the song being sang through screaming. Definition of Post Hardcore: These types of songs come in a more melodic variety, meaning that post hardcore songs have a melody that is easy to pick out, unlike the screamo genre. Not only that, but most Post hardcore songs that I have heard don't use screaming through most of their songs. If we merge these two articles, we will only be merging very different genres that have huge differences. I think that it is best to keep this article separate from the post hardcore article —Preceding unsigned comment added by 166.70.234.10 (talk) 05:18, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

• Oppose merger. They're two completely separate genres. You can't claim that screamo has turned into post-hardcore when there's still bands making screamo in it's original sense. Whoever proposed this clearly has no idea what they're talking about. EznorbYar (talk) 12:27, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

• Oppose merger. I think that the person who has proposed this merger doesn't know what the true

meaning of emo and screamo is. This is not suprising seeing as mainstream media seems to like to use screamo to label just about any band that screams. I don't belieive that user has bad intentions, though, I'm sure if they heard a real screamo record they'd agree that there are characteristics that set it apart from post-hardcore and other genres. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.219.248.46 (talk) 06:17, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

• Oppose merger. They're two different genres. 67.164.53.111 (talk) 07:51, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

• Oppose merger. They're two different genres. Screamo evolved from emo, which evolved from hardcore. Post-hardcore evolved directly from hardcore. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Akkeri (talk • contribs) 02:09, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

• Oppose merger. They're non-overlapping articles. Both genres evolved from the same thing, however are both totally different genres at the same time. There is nothing in these articles linking them together, and there is no reason the articles should be deleted either, they are of reasonable notability and do not go against any Wiki policy.Guitar freak91 (talk) 05:09, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Seeing as most people agree that screamo deserves it's own page, I think we should put an end to this discussion. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.219.248.46 (talk) 08:47, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

• Oppose merger. Bands like At the Drive-In and Fugazi have very little to do with Screamo. 19:10, 13 February 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 205.133.194.247 (talk)

• Strong Support Saetia is a post-hardcore band. Circle Takes The Square is post-hardcore. Screamo is a type of post hardcore. Post hardcore= music that derived from the Hardcore punk genre. So, yes. Post-hardcore bands can also be screamo bands. There IS a direct link to the two genres.*

• In the early 1990s you would have been right, but now that Post-Hardcore has evolved it is now a genre with characteristics, screamo does not meet these. Besides, if we follow your logic than Grunge is Post-hardcore, because it developed from hardcore punk.

Screamo came from emo, didnt it? And emocore and emo are post-hardcore. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.169.189.82 (talk) 00:43, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

Screamo Band List

Well since no one can agree what exactly "screamo" is... maybe some of our esteemed colleagues can agree on a few bands that might fit the bill. And who's to say that any certain "screamo" band won't transcend multiple genres? Most good music does. On the other hand, if this list is allowed to grow I personally believe that it will become more apparent what musically literate people consider legitimate entries... and irrelevant ones. Go crazy kids, go crazy. 199.67.140.154 (talk) 19:57, 20 March 2008 (UTC)Billy Blanks

This link could be a possible starting point, I personally agree with most of the bands that are stated.

http://www.absolutepunk.net/showthread.php?t=140750

  hey, i made that list. go me. -- Maycomb County  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.249.20.73 (talk) 14:05, 11 May 2008 (UTC) 

Underoath

why is underoath here? they don't even play screamo —Preceding unsigned comment added by 189.164.93.64 (talk) 02:20, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

 Underoath is Screamo  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.148.225.152 (talk) 14:37, 6 July 2008 (UTC) 

Screamo, the art of molesting your vocal chords?

Ok seriously who wrote that does that even belong or is it suseptable for deletion

"Screamo, the art of molesting your vocal chords"

Was on the front page XXxChriscorexXx (talk) 16:14, 22 April 2008 (UTC)

Sources needed

Per the policy of verification: Editors should provide a reliable source for quotations and for any material that is challenged or is likely to be challenged, or the material may be removed.

Material has been challenged and removed and needs to have sources provided before it is returned to the article. TheRedPenOfDoom (talk) 10:43, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

Genre Misconceptions?

I just had to edit out a fair few inaccuracies in this page, which I would like to bring here just for clarification.
Firstly, whoever said it has elements of Post-Rock has just demonstrated that they've seemingly never heard Post-Rock in their entire life. Post-Rock uses rock guitar styles for non-rock purposes, usually taking influence from Soundscape, Shoegaze, Ambient, Alternative Rock, Experimental Music and Electronic Music. I do not see how the many listed Screamo bands here at all develop these genres into their music. Please learn your genres before making the most absurd comparisons I will ever witness.
Also, another issue is that of Death Metal and Black Metal. Let us just confirm this for the little kiddies, ok? Screaming vocals with intense distortion does not instantly make you a form of Death Metal. Nor does it mean you have influence from Death Metal. Otherwise, by this logic, half the fucking Hardcore + Crust Punk bands out there mind aswell just be called Death Metal. So try comparing any Screamo band to Necrophagist, Death or Nile and then try saying that. You just cant.
Last but not least, Black Metal. I dont know where this mindless speculation came from, but, as regressive and generic as Black Metal is, it is nowhere near the proximity of Screamo. Do you see Aiden singing about sacrificing unholy nordic goats to the blasphemous wintermoon? Or hear Atreyu singing about icelandic satanic doomforests of blackness? No! Even the guitaring, which is basically just tremolo picking the same 5 notes in a minor key, to the feedback, it's far from Screamo.
Thank you, just had to clear up this ignorant mess. Dark dude (talk) 19:05, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

A few bands did(Envy & Funeral Diner to name two) have/have a lot of Post rock influence. You should also learn what Screamo actually is/was.76.117.93.208 (talk) 00:53, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

How on Earth did Funeral Diner have Post-Rock influence??? I dont see them doing any resemblant genres to Post-Rock at all. Shoegaze? Nope. Ambient? Nope. Noise? Nope. Electronic? Nope. Strange timbre? Nope. Almost entire focus onto atmosphere (Soundscape)? Nope. I'm not a hater of Screamo at all, considering I used to be big with the genre 2 years ago, but I can easily say, Screamo does not have Post-Rock influence. Possibly have the sound of one of the elements of post-rock, but by that logic, Sunn O))) and Daft Punk are also Post-Rock. Dark dude (talk) 13:49, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Not nearly to the degree of Envy, but you can hear a little bit of post rock influence in FDs music. 76.117.93.208 (talk) 18:41, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

I'm the one who originally put the post-rock reference back before I had an account(although I have no idea where the death/black metal thing came from). Obviously, you have not heard a lot of screamo. A lot of it (particularly Envy) does overlap with post-rock. They have long, epic songs, are very experimental, and a big focus on atmosphere. Listen to them sometime and then listen to Mogwai. It is quite similar in style. Also, I have to infer that you have little knowledge pertaining to screamo, considering you said that Aiden was screamo.Punkrockrunner (talk) 01:53, 3 July 2008 (UTC)punkrockrunner

Genres

Why take the origins away?

P.S. it should be=

Stylistic | Emo
origins: _| Hardcore punk
_______.| Extreme metal

---

Ignore the lines

61x62x61 (talk) 17:32, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

The 'Origins' was the subject of a (slowmotion) edit war between two (or more) unsourced positions. Find a reliable source about the genre's origins and it can go back in.TheRedPenOfDoom (talk) 17:36, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

I realy don't know but it seems really hard to find reliable sources so i'll just post a few tell me what you think [[1]](Unsourced most likely unreliable) [[2]] This seems more reliable however and seems like screamo does come from emo), if you say source numbers two is good i'll write up an origins page =] XXxChriscorexXx (talk) 12:59, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

Wikis in general are not considered reliable sources and unfortunately, the second source says that this article in Wikipedia is its source, and so that is not allowed as a source, either. TheRedPenOfDoom (talk) 15:44, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

Sorry I didnt see that part i'll look for some more I hate seeing articles look so lifeless.. I'll be looking for more sources and see if we can make use of any.. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.180.33.165 (talk) 22:59, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

Isn't it obvious that screamo comes from emo and the word screamo comes from the word "scream" and "emo"? Kurniasan (talk) 15:27, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

There were at least two different groups contesting for what the origins of the style were/are. What is 'obvious' analysis falls under 'no original research' particularly Wikipedia editors taking piece of information A and piece of information B and claiming that A+B=C. Until someone finds a reasonably reliable source, the contested 'style origins' should remain blank. TheRedPenOfDoom (talk) 15:44, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

Of course its hard to find reliable sources for an obscure punk subgenre.Inhumer (talk) 17:11, 25 May 2008 (UTC)

The origins of the word screamo in "emo" and "screaming" are made clear on the second page of the cited NY Times article, as well as in the Alternative Press article. The background in hardcore punk and post-hardcore is also explained in both these sources. 67.191.153.112 (talk) 00:07, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

Gothic rock and screamo

I've been accused of misinterpreting a source (Jason Heller's "Feast of Reason") by indicating early screamo's eventual debt to Gothic rock. To be clear, the source says "Angel Hair's sound hinted at the theatricality and moral ambivalence of '80s goth as much as it did the cryptic rebellion of Nation of Ulysses; the band even recorded a vessel-rupturing cover of Bauhaus's 'Stigmata Martyr.'" This means that Angel Hair (a prototypical screamo group) owed as much to goth as it did to D.C. post-hardcore, which is a rather strong statement. My reference to later screamo borrowing from new wave alludes to Heller's statement about combining Gary Numan and Born Against. I'd like to include reference to the Rapture and the eventual connection between screamo and dance-punk, but I'm not positive how to do it.

On another note, I'd *really* like to add something about Orchid, who I find to be a crucial later screamo group, and important in terms of combining screamo with thrash and grindcore. Does anybody know where I can get a good source on Orchid? Aryder779 (talk) 14:51, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

Grindcore

Ok, I found something on Orchid and added them to the article, but I'd like to say something about how Orchid, the Blood Brothers, and the Locust owe more to grindcore than their predecessors did. Can somebody help with that? Aryder779 (talk) 15:01, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

Commerce

hi, I'd like to add something about commercial success - the very first screamo groups were very underground and couldn't have sold much, whereas obviously the new groups like MCR are a gold mine. Where can I find data on Billboard charts? I suspect some of the later first-wave groups (Blood Brothers and the Locust) probably sold pretty well also, though nothing like Thursday and their ilk. Aryder779 (talk) 15:13, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

But MCR is not screamo or emo. Modern day screamo bands are still extremely underground often making no more than 500 of a particular record(in one print at least). Get your definition right. --Sasarai (talk) 11:14, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

Allmusic description

The description given at the top of the page, from Allmusic, seems to describe the second variety of screamo (the bit about screaming vocals showing up at moments of emotional intensity). The first wave screamo bands just screamed throughout. So I'm thinking of moving that section of the description to the "second wave characteristics" section. By the way, can anybody think of a better way to differentiate, other than "first wave" and "second wave"? I mean, we can't really say "true" screamo or "real" screamo, because that's too prescriptive, and the term was never something the bands particularly advocated anyway. Aryder779 (talk) 21:01, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

The "waves" described in this article make no sense. The "first wave," for one, is still going strong, albeit deeply underground in true screamo style. The second wave is a totally unrelated group of bands. The article doesn't even list any "second wave" bands, except for The Used and Thursday, neither of which have much at all to do with the first wave. The "first wave" was a legitimate genre, but the so-called "second wave" is just a loose descriptor of a bunch of stylistically unrelated groups. The wave classification is useless. It would be more accurate to call the new stuff nu-screamo because it is superficially similar, but not really related, the way that nu-metal is superficially similar to metal, but not the same. Punkrockrunner (talk) 02:02, 3 July 2008 (UTC)punkrockrunner

Screamo/Use of sources

Aryder779:hi, I wanted to respond to your declaration that I've misinterpreted my source in terms of the Gothic rock influence on screamo it might be a subtlety to indicate that Angel Hair "hinted" at goth, but they also covered Bauhaus, and Swing Kids covered Joy Division (granted, Joy Division is ambiguously "proto-Goth"). We'll just leave the influence as post-punk, and move on. - Now, as to the "second wave" of screamo, what is your problem with my citing Thursday's influences as characteristic? The point that needs to be gotten across is the (rather great) distinction between the first group of screamo groups, and the second, more commercially successful ones, as well as whatever they might have in common that makes the genre name at all viable. Basically, what Thursday and Antioch Arrow have in common is that they both borrow from post-punk (Joy Division) and post-hardcore (Fugazi). Where Thursday becomes radically different is their borrowing from alternative rock like U2 and Smashing Pumpkins. I'll try to put something to that effect into the article. I've gone back and cut some of the long lists of band names down to a few representative candidates -- I think that makes things clearer. - Furthermore, why did you delete my references to the Locust and the Rapture? I mean, I understand that these groups are "post-screamo", but they're alluded to in the article -- the Rapture released on Gravity. The point is to give an indication of what the original screamo scene matured into. - Anyhow, I'd appreciate it if you'd make yourself useful by finding some more sources and contributing something, rather than just deleting my "misinterpretations". Thanks. Andrew P.S. Now that I look at the article again, it says "Angel Hair's sound hinted at the theatricality and moral ambivalence of '80s goth as much as it did the cryptic rebellion of Nation of Ulysses; the band even recorded a vessel-rupturing cover of Bauhaus's 'Stigmata Martyr.'" This sentence means that Angel Hair borrowed as much from '80s goth as it did from Nation of Ulysses. That's actually a pretty strong statement about the relationship to Gothic rock. Discuss this with me on the talk page.

The main problem with what you're doing is that you use one example from a particular band and then go on and use it as a generalisation for the style as a whole. You said "these groups were inspired by...", when it was simply the influences for ONE of the bands. Plus I dont see the need for there to be a specific reference to Thursday. Anyways with that said, you're doing a good job expanding the article as a whole.--SilverOrion (talk) 08:52, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

C'mon, —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.219.88.62 (talk) 08:36, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

Screamo didn't drift into mainstream, only term did. Any of those bands mentioned in second wave aren't screamo. Second wave screamo is Light the Fuse and Run, Amanda Woodward etc. Get your genres clear. I understand that screamo is cool and poppy-term, but stop labeling all bands in the world under screamo. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.219.94.18 (talk) 09:56, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

Skramz

I'm sure anyone here in the know will agree with me when I say that the screamo and emo page are largely incorrect. And because of the media and their constant misuse of both of those terms we might never see these two pages actually contain the correct information. So, could we abandon these pages and instead create a "Skramz" page that will only contain information pertaining real screamo? Skram is a term that was made specifically so it wouldn't be wrongly interpreted by people who don't know what actual screamo is. So there's no way a band like Underoath could be mentioned in an article about Skramz. There would be no massive discussion concerning the genres traits(except maybe an explanation in the article itself) unless the claim was actually founded for a change. Although we shouldn't have to abandon OUR term(no matter how you look at it, genre classification is objective and we were first) there is very little possibility of convincing so many people. --78.22.66.140 (talk) 11:00, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

That's original research, see below. — ^FatalError 06:36, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

Hey! Lets make up our own Sub Genre

Hey kids do you know of 3 bands that sound a tiny tad different that something is already pimped by so called independent music writers?

THEN

Make up your own sub Genre of it!!! You can do do that on this called Wikipedia. Because you can make it up, and get it verified because of the 3 bands that you know. THAT'S ALL IT TAKES KIDS TO START YOUR OWN SUB-GENERE. AND IT WILL GET LISTED, VERIFIED, AND CODIFIED BY WIKIPEDIA. Hey my dog started a new sub genere with his new band, I better go set up a new sub genre listing in Wikipedia

I'm afraid your article will get deleted after awhile, unless you work for AMG or Rolling Stone, in which case you can make up all the genres you want since you'll be a reliable source and provide citations RKFS (talk) 00:45, 14 August 2009 (UTC)

"Real" screamo

All the comments here complaining about what's here referred to as the "second wave" of screamo are misunderstanding how Wikipedia works. Just so we're perfectly clear: I don't like Thursday, or the Used or any of these so-called screamo groups. I have no interest in advocating them. I like groups like Orchid and Swing Kids. However, *very* prominent sources *do* call Thursday (The New York Times, no less), screamo. Wikipedia is meant to be descriptive, not prescriptive. So we can't pretend like The New York Times doesn't exist, and that screamo only refers to Heroin or Angel Hair or pg. 99 or whatever your favorite underground band is. I understand that "second wave" is not the best term -- because there's not much relationship between the two groupings of bands -- but there has to be some way of indicating there are two uses of the term "screamo", and further -- and this is important -- we, the Wikipedia community, don't actually have the right to declare one usage invalid based on our distaste. Wikipedia is not supposed to be a place for advocacy; it's a place to make sense of how these terms are used in the media. Further, I don't think any of the original screamo groups even particularly liked the term. The best source I've found on the San Diego scene certainly indicates that those bands weren't fond of being called "screamo". So it's not really a hallowed term that needs to be defended. Aryder779 (talk) 20:25, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

We should include a reliable source that says "screamo" has been misinterpreted by some in the media, then document the instances of this, and then reliably source the bands' real genres, or if that's too "prescriptive" then the genres they'd like to be called, or that they don't like being called screamo. That gets rid of both problems. --Pwnage8 (talk) 20:31, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

That's a great idea -- I've just never turned up a reliable source that makes the misusage clear. It would be great if someone did. Aryder779 (talk) 20:33, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

It is a great idea, but good luck finding a source for that. — ^FatalError 06:53, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

There arent any sources which EXPLICITLY state that the term has been misused, however if you compare the characteristics of the original form to the current style, it becomes obvious that the term has been misused. You dont need sources for everything, sometimes you just have to use common sense.--SilverOrion (talk) 07:33, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

Would you agree if New York Times would call Iron Maiden rapcore? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.219.94.18 (talk) 10:54, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

The relevant guidelines here are Wikipedia:No original research, Wikipedia:Verifiability, Wikipedia:Neutral point of view, and Wikipedia:Reliable sources. The problem is that "screamo" is used so prevalently to describe Used/Thursday et. al. that we have to address it. Do a Google search for "screamo", I'm positive the vast majority of the hits will turn up stuff referring to the "second wave". It would be fantastic if we could find any reliable, published source that provides perspective on the apparent misusage, but we don't have one yet. I'm sure one will turn up soon. Aryder779 (talk) 14:14, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

That doesn't prove anything. Calling band screamo, doesn't make it screamo. Sound makes. I would agree with this The Used/Thursday = screamo, if first wave-sounding screamo would be dead, but there's very alive & kickin' screamo scene in Europe. Just week ago, Cry Me a River fest took place in Germany. If you don't know, then it's real screamo festival. Nice proof that real, or better, original screamo still exists. Weirdest thnig is that The used & Thursday both sound more post-hardcore than screamo. And post-hardcore they are. They're influenced mostly by late 90's post-hardcore bands like At The Drive-In. Listen to yourself - Thursday is much more like At The Drive-In (post-hc), than Saetia (screamo). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.219.94.18 (talk) 19:55, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

But that's original research. We know that not everything the New York Times says is true, especially with music genres, but according to Wikipedia's policies, we have to use what they say. Verifiability, not truth. SilverOrion, that would be synthesis of published material. We aren't supposed to jump to any conclusions about a topic without at least one source supporting that conclusion. WP:NOR uses that example here. "'A and B, therefore C' is acceptable only if a reliable source has published this argument in relation to the topic of the article." What you're saying would be a "A and B, therefore C" situation. However, if we can find at least one source to back that up, it would be fine. — ^FatalError 02:13, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

I came across several sources, however none of them would pass the reliablity test.--SilverOrion (talk) 03:20, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, same here. fourfa.com is a good website, but unfortunately it's self-published so it probably wouldn't work, and it has more stuff about emo than screamo. — ^FatalError 06:34, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

spiritus-temporis.com, at the bottom it says "In recent years, the term "screamo" has been misused very commonly to describe emo, post-punk, alternative rock, metalcore, or hardcore bands with emo influences".--SilverOrion (talk) 08:25, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

I would love to cite that, but I couldn't find out what the website was. I'm afraid someone might say that it's not "reliable."Punkrockrunner (talk) 20:55, 31 July 2008 (UTC)punkrockrunner

Okay, now I see. But couldn't we mention both second wave 'real' screamo & bands labeled screamo nowadays in the article? It's weird that Europe screamo scene is toally ignored. France & Italy are full of 'old-school' sounding screamo bands. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.219.94.18 (talk) 08:19, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

Find a source, add them to the article, and describe their relationship to the sound! I'm actually really curious about European screamo -- I've heard of groups like Systral through Orchid, but don't know much about them. We just need some kind of third-party source relating to their work. I think it's ok if it's not in English. Aryder779 (talk) 14:48, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

I can't contribute any sources to the European screamo thing, but I'll drop a small list of names that you might be able to use in your search. They're all from Europe(and of course, all screamo). 'Louise Cyphre', 'La Quiete', 'Raein', 'A Fine Boat, That Coffin!', 'Am I Dead Yet!', 'Amanda Woodward', 'Apoplexy Twist Orchestra', 'Aussitôt Mort', 'Battle of Wolf 359', 'A Case of Grenada', 'Daïtro', 'Danse Macabre', 'The Death of Anna Karina', 'Do Androids Dream of Electric Sheep?', 'Endless Inertia', 'A Flower Kollapsed', 'Gantz', 'Gone With The Pain', 'June Paik', 'Kaospilot', 'khere', 'Kill.Kim.Novak', 'Killed By Malaise', 'Kontrapunkt', 'Mr Willis of Ohio', 'Only For The Sake of Aching', 'Singaia', 'Trainwreck', 'Sed Non Satiata' --Sasarai (talk) 00:27, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

How about just listening to the darn music and stop trying to label music. You can't. 24.35.35.224 (talk) 08:52, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

Simply categorizing something because it fits under certain criteria is mostly objective. So something is of a genre despite what anyone else thinks. So what people are trying to do here is define that criteria, NOT which bands fall under the name screamo. That comes afterwards. --Sasarai (talk) 00:19, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

Actually, I disagree about the objectivity of genres. Wikipedia has a nominalist epistemology (to be totally pretentious about it) -- genre labels come from the way they are used, by published sources. We can stitch together a case for the traits in common that seem to indicate a genre, but I don't think that classification will ever be "objective". I find this whole project really challenging, actually, and doing research on this subject has let me know just how little most music journalists think about what they do. The funny thing is, on screamo, message boards seem a lot more thoughtful than published sources. Thanks very much for the suggestions on European screamo -- I've looked some of them up and heard some of it -- especially the French stuff and it deserves to be covered in this article. I haven't been able to find a good published source on the matter, though, even in French. Aryder779 (talk) 18:28, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

I see your point. By the way, would zines be an acceptable source? Or a record label(such as the german React With Protest, who organises Cry Me A River festival every year, the biggest screamo festival in the world) or distro(Such as Bis Auf Messer, the distro owned by Zann, a german screamo band) perhaps? Also, wouldn't it be easier to just find a source that links modern screamo to the older screamo? Such as publications simply referring back to Portraits of Past, Swing Kids or another band already established as screamo to describe their sound? --78.20.181.168 (talk) 20:07, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

I think zines are a perfectly good source for this page. I wish I had some of my old copies of HeartattaCk, Punk Planet or Maximum Rock'n'roll. I think record labels are ok too, but if it comes directly from them it has to be considered a self-published source -- which is iffy, but sort of ok. I also think it's probably alright to interpret certain groups as classic screamo -- so if a band says that their main influences are Swing Kids, Antioch Arrow and Angel Hair, I would say that's a tacit self-description as "screamo". There's always a fine line between interpretation and original research, which is one of the challenging and stimulating things about this project. Aryder779 (talk) 17:00, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

Okay, that pretty much allows us to add a part about modern screamo. But it does nothing to disprove the validity of the whole "second wave" sound. I think that is impossible considering the whole nominalist epistemology thing you mentioned earlier. I think the best thing to do is to go in depth about the fact that a lot of people in the know disagree with the claim that bands with a sound such as Thursday can be called screamo and so on. I might try to write it later if I have some time. --Sasarai (talk) 09:38, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

I found an interview with Louise Cyphre who are largely regarded as the biggest screamo band of the European scene. http://www.shootmeagain.com/?section=interviews&read=39&version=vo It talks about their influences and some other stuff about the screamo scene and genre. However, I can't incorporate this in the article myself. I hope someone else can. --Sasarai (talk) 14:42, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

This is an awful lot of work for an article based around a "genre" that doesn't exist. --Miikro (talk) 02:54, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

I really have to say this, the second paragraph sounds like an angry music snob going on a tirade about the fact that mainstream culture has no idea what screamo really is, as opposed to a source of information. Can we do something about this? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 204.249.68.196 (talk) 20:31, 26 December 2010 (UTC)

I agree with the comment above me. It sounds way too biased. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Giantmushingd (talk • contribs) 00:56, 10 January 2011 (UTC)

Skramz

I think we're making a lot of progress with the article. I'd still like to incorporate the term "Skramz" in there somewhere. I'll try to find reliable sources. I've seen Aryder cited some things people from Comadre said from a source I contributed earlier. The singer from Comadre used the term "Skramz" when talking to me at a show once. Of course, it's anecdotal. Also, would it be possible to create a list of screamo bands(that differentiates between the first and second "waves") or aren't we that far yet? --Sasarai (talk) 12:42, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

Yes, I really appreciated that Comadre article; it provided some things that needed to be said. It would be good if we could find an NPOV source on "skramz" -- everything I've found on it is related to Internet forums.
As for lists of screamo bands -- they're discouraged under Wikipedia guidelines: Wikipedia:Embedded list. I think it's best that we continue to add lists of bands in sentence form, perhaps grouped together by their geographical origin or distinctive style. Aryder779 (talk) 21:17, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

'skramz' is a ridiculous term, but at least it differentiates. Either way, its pretty informally used, you'd be hard pressed to find a reliable source on it.122.106.53.121 (talk) 10:08, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

SECOND WAVE!?

Bands like The Used and Thursday should be better classified as 2nd Wave Post-hardcore —Preceding unsigned comment added by Himynameisnick (talk • contribs) 03:19, 10 October 2008 (UTC)

Please read WP:NOR. Aryder779 (talk) 23:22, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

you need more pics

Bold textyou should update your pics . not all emo girls look like that . incase you didn't know there are black emo girls too .... just not a lot ...but i am one...xD just thought i let you know —Preceding unsigned comment added by Emogirl532 (talk • contribs) 01:41, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

WP:SOFIXIT -- The Red Pen of Doom 17:48, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

Other mentions

Other sites mention City of Caterpillar, Angel Hair, After School Knife Fight, Neil Perry, and Envy as Screamo. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 160.94.16.68 (talk) 17:41, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

Are they reliable sites? If so you may be able to gain consensus on this talk page that they should be noted within the article. If the sites are blogs, personal web pages, chat forums, well, they do not meet Wikipedia's standards for sources and will be removed from the article. -- The Red Pen of Doom 17:47, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

I know AllMusic has City of Caterpillar listed as screamo, and having heard some of their stuff, I think it's very consistent with screamo. Also lists Envy as the same. Not sure about the others. (Albert Mond (talk) 01:28, 5 April 2009 (UTC))

Zines as sources?

A little under a year ago, Aryder suggested that zines would be a perfectly good source for this article. Unfortunately, afaik, "zines" as a category are not considered reliable sources on Wikipedia. I think that this is a problem, particularly in the context of underground music, in which zines are the principal organ of dissemination of a lot of this information. Does anyone know if there is any way to get a blanket exemption sanctioning the use of indie/punk/hardcore/etcetera samizdat materials for the discussion of related topics? As I see it, this is almost of a piece with the general problem I have seen of articles about influential but low-selling musicians getting nn'ed by squares. KASchmidt (talk) 01:51, 6 May 2009 (UTC)

I'm not sure what you mean by zine, but I'm sure established examples like Maximum Rock'n'Roll would count. Not very low circulation self-published zines, though. Is there a zine you want to use as a source that other editors are vetoing? I feel like these things can be worked out by the community of editors on a page by page basis, at least until the point of GA nomination. Aryder779 (talk) 02:22, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

I've sort of forgotten my original point, but I think I was wondering what you meant by zines. I agree, I doubt that MRR or Punk Planet, say, would present any problems, but I think that more emo/hc-focused stuff like HeartattaCK or Give Me Back might give pause to the uninitiated. I don't know how many copies of those ever existed, but it can't be very high, and while those publications look maybe slightly less professional than MRR, I think they look unprofessional/selfpublished enough to the average person that using them might be a hassle. I think I might also have been worried about what the concept of "zine" might imply to the gatekeepers of reliability. KASchmidt (talk) 18:03, 16 April 2011 (UTC)

Fermium?

I noticed in the second wave characteristics bit, the last line references experimentation with rap. However, the band mentioned does not have a Wikipedia article as of yet, and I highly doubt they or that line meet notability guidelines. Also, I am skeptical as to whether or not the experimentation with rap mentioned actually signifies a significant event in screamo, or even relates to it at all for that matter, as Crunkcore groups such as Brokencyde and Family Force Five have been mislabled as screamo in the past. As such, I am baleeting this line for now. (Albert Mond (talk) 07:08, 9 November 2009 (UTC))

Characteristics

I really don't think the information for the first wave musical characteristics expounds on the topic enough. I found a great description of it awhile ago, but technically i think it would be considered original research (i found it as a description on a video on youtube). also, shouldn't the "jazziness" of the style be noted more prominently? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.36.111.17 (talk) 19:34, 27 November 2009 (UTC)

I think I agree. I also think the 'brief compositions' thing isn't exactly a 100% truth. (Albert Mond (talk) 04:10, 28 November 2009 (UTC))

Really?

Should it really be classified as music? It's just people screaming words while other people play instruments. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jackass2009 (talk • contribs) 23:52, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

See Grindcore, Black Metal, Emo, Hardcore Punk, Thrash Metal, Post-hardcore, Metalcore, and Blues. (Albert Mond (talk) 08:16, 3 December 2009 (UTC))

You forgot the genres and sub-genres of these: Death Metal, Experimental Metal, Alternative Rock, Deathcore, Technical Death Metal, Nu metal, Hard Rock, Heavy Metal, Noise Music, Streetpunk, Oi!, Industrial Metal, Rap Metal, Groove Metal, Deathgrind, Blackened Death Metal, Melodic Death Metal, Doom Metal, Glam Metal, Grunge, Avant-garde Metal, Post-Metal, Progressive Metal, Sludge Metal, Speed Metal, Crossover Trash, Brutal Death Metal, Progressive Rock panicpack121 (panicpack121) 9:09 7 December 7, 2009 (UTC)

Question

'Lo. I'm wondering if the lines about the term in 'common speech' are really necessary to the article. I'm not saying I don't agree, it's just that this happens with a lot of styles. (Albert Mond (talk) 01:21, 2 July 2010 (UTC))

Writing again. Can we just get rid of the "common speech" thing?

Popular misinterpretations are extremely common and screamo is hardly the only genre to ever experience this. (Albert Mond (talk) 19:42, 12 July 2010 (UTC))

"Second wave"

The current version of this page is prescriptive, rather than descriptive. The "second wave" section has been deleted, despite its sources; it reflects widespread usage in the press.

I'm posting this section here for posterity:

Second wave (2001–present)

By 2002, the genre name drifted into the music press, especially in the journalism of Jim DeRogatis and Andy Greenwald. "Screamo" began to describe a different, much slower and less dissonant style, like Emanuel, that borrowed from alternative rock. These new bands incorporate commercial elements of alternative rock, emo and post-hardcore. As the two styles are noticeably distinct, the wide contemporary usage of the term "screamo" has been controversial among some critics. The Sacramento band Far, and the Canadian group Grade, were among the first bands to practice this variety of screamo. The second outcropping of groups to be given the name include Thursday and Alexisonfire. Thursday also cited post-punk (Joy Division) and post-hardcore (Fugazi) as important influences, but also took cues from the alternative rock of Radiohead, U2, and The Cure. In contrast to the DIY first-wave screamo groups, Thursday and The Used have signed multialbum contracts with labels such as Island Def Jam and Reprise Records. Bert McCracken, lead singer of The Used, stated that "screamo" is merely a term "for record companies to sell records and for record stores to categorize them." The groups generally prefer to be described as post-hardcore.

Characteristics

Second-wave screamo typically makes use of dual guitars and eschews guitar solos, and is most identifiable by its "frequent shifts in tempo and dynamics and by tension-and-release catharses." Unlike the first wave of screamo, the second-wave of screamo bands often compose pop ballads. Second-wave screamo has been described as "mixing the literate, poetic lyrics of emo with a harsher and more metallic brand of sonic thrash" as well as use occasional screamed vocals "as a kind of crescendo element, a sonic weapon to be trotted out when the music and lyrics...reach a particular emotional pitch".

Some reflection of the mainstream usage of the term "screamo" needs to be included on this page. Aryder779 (talk) 15:29, 3 December 2010 (UTC)

Any pictures or music examples?

It's a shame that the emo article is so improved, and screamo article isn't. I think there should be at least few pictures and music examples. It's really a little weird that the sub-genre of emo isn't as improved as emo, or even more improved. Wikipedia and their users should work on it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by ETFFAN123 (talk • contribs) 09:55, 6 April 2011 (UTC)

Electronic trend

Some users have been vandalizing this article by removing referenced information about the recent fusion of electronic music and screamo. This NEEDS TO STOP. Whether or not you like the trend is NOT what is under question here. One user stated that this whole "electronic trend" is based on "the misuse of the term 'screamo'". Contrarily, though, the inclusion of information about this recent electronic trend does not affect 'original' screamo (or 'real' screamo, or whatever you want to call it). Original screamo bands are still original screamo bands. But it would be a denial of reliable sources and of clear fact to say that modern screamo groups have not been influenced by electronic music. --♫ Chris-B-Koolio ♫ ... (Talk) 23:28, 27 April 2011 (UTC)

Electronic screamo, crunkcore, nintendocore

This article has really improved in the last year or so away from a distorted past, but I found this:

Some modern practitioners of screamo have been influenced by electronic music.[24][25] This fusion has been referred to as "electronicore", "synthcore", or "screamo-techno".[26][27] Sumerian Records notes that "there has been a surplus of "electronica/hardcore" music as of late."[28] Crunkcore and Nintendocore are two musical genres that have derived from screamo and electronic fusion.[29][30]

It was not discussed on this page before being added, for obvious reasons. Editors have repeatedly thought of it as vandalism yet it keeps reappearing without discussion. It seems as if a couple editors with an agenda or a habit of trolling are adding this even though it contradicts what the Screamo#Misuse_of_the_term_.22screamo.22 section says. There is already a sufficient amount of the same content about this misnomer on its correct pages post-hardcore#2000s and Hardcore_punk#Electronic_music. I have removed this until some editors come up with some sort of consensus. Remember: all because something screams does not make it screamo.Supahshadow (talk) 23:37, 27 April 2011 (UTC)

I appreciate your concern. But there really is no valid excuse for removing referenced information. You're correct that just because something has screams doesn't make it screamo, but if something is reliably referenced as screamo, then that does make it screamo. You're also correct that a substantial amount of information on the topic exists at Hardcore punk#Electronic music. But since the trend does affect screamo, it is appropriate to include some of that information here. Maybe we can reach some sort of agreement? SOME information on this topic MUST remain on the page (ESPECIALLY the link to the two fusion genres in the infobox). However, based solely on your concerns, I would be willing to reach a consensus with you (although in truth, all of the information that was on this page was throughly referenced, and it should ALL stay). --♫ Chris-B-Koolio ♫ ... (Talk) 23:45, 27 April 2011 (UTC)

Much of the electronic influences stuff is being debated. However, crunkcore is very, very solidly sourced as a screamo-crunk fusion (actually, screamo-crunk is one of the names for it), and Nintendocore is also sourced as using screamo elements, so those two genres absolutely should stay. As for the rest, I don't really want to get involved, so I will let others fight it out.--3family6 (talk) 01:00, 28 April 2011 (UTC)

The whole ordeal with electronically influenced genres has been debated for a while. Although, it really hasn't been a debate about whether or not the fusion exists, but more or less a debate about how notable it is. That's why the page I created (Electronically influenced hardcore) is being deleted (and rightfully so, I admit. The fusion is notable but not notable enough for its own page). There is enough information about the fusion to form a reliably referenced paragraph or two, but not a page. But it seems that a few users, like Supahshadow here, don't like there being any reference to the trend on Wikipedia. Anywho.. I've added tiny bits of appropriate information about the trend to the pages post-hardcore and screamo. The majority of the info is at Hardcore punk#Electronic music. I guess I just got ahead of myself by creating an entire article about the fusion, lol, but a paragraph or two on a couple pages is definitely appropriate. Since screamo is one of the genres affected, I don't see why this guy is upset that 2 or 3 sentences on the article talk about the fusion. --♫ Chris-B-Koolio ♫ ... (Talk) 01:35, 28 April 2011 (UTC)

I understand that there is a difference between "real screamo" and just using the term to describe any music with screaming. I don't want to upset the flow of this article or welcome editors to began adding references that refer to mislabelled screamo (and I understand that it's a fragile situation because SO many references exist that label SO many things screamo; it's rediculous). In light of that, I've simplified the information about the electronic fusion. Instead of saying that screamo bands have been influenced by electronic music, it simply says that some bands have been influenced by screamo and influenced by electronic music. I know there are very few "true" screamo bands, so I reworded the statement to apply to other bands, not direct representatives of the genre screamo. The genres Nintendocore and crunkcore ARE influenced by aspects of screamo, though. Although they may not be "derivatives" of screamo, some elements of screamo have influenced those styles. --♫ Chris-B-Koolio ♫ ... (Talk) 14:58, 28 April 2011 (UTC)

I would argue with you that bands labeled crunkcore, or nintendocore are influenced by any screamo bands or anything from screamo, and to reference bands like Enter Shikari, and I See Stars, as screamo plus electronic music would be incorrect. By having the bit at the bottom about crunkcore and nintendocore, you are promoting the misuse of the word screamo. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.115.176.151 (talk) 00:19, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

The word screamo is NOT misused there. You seem to have a very narrow view of what screamo really is. Screamo is a derivative form of hardcore punk that is influenced by both emo and post-hardcore. There are many many modern examples of screamo. Of course, EVERYTHING with screaming isn't screamo. But a band that fuses hardcore punk, emotional connotation, and screamed vocals can rightly be referred to as screamo. Crunkcore and Nintendocore both have been influenced by screamo. Reliable references are reliable references; you can't just make up your own definition for screamo or remove true information because you don't like it.--♫ Chris-B-Koolio ♫ ... (Talk) 16:27, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

Nah man, those bands are influenced by Post-Hardcore bands and electronic music, not screamo and electronic music. You're wrong! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.115.176.151 (talk) 20:14, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

Well, reliable sources say otherwise. Sorry. --♫ Chris-B-Koolio ♫ ... (Talk) 21:12, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

Well "Reliable Sources" are wrong. Those sources that are saying "This music is influence by screamo" have the wrong idea about what screamo is also. If you were to ask Crunkcore bands, and Nintendocore bands, what influenced them to make the music they make, they wouldn't list of actual screamo bands. Sure they'd have post-hardcore bands maybe, and electronic music, and other -core bands. But seriously. They're not screamo. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.115.176.151 (talk) 07:11, 25 July 2011 (UTC)

Allmusic source

http://www.allmusic.com/explore/style/screamo-d13459 This is a WONDERFUL source about the history of screamo. I've added much of the info from there to the article. I would encourage everyone who edits screamo to check out the web page if they get a chance.

Post-rock inflected Screamo

In the 'Influence on other styles' section, it says modern Screamo acts like Pianos Become The Teeth incorporated Post-Rock into Screamo but there was a lot more bands who had this sound before them. For example City of Caterpillar, Envy and Funeral Diner all played this sound in the very early 2000's. All these bands also have wikipedia pages with references to them have a post-rock influenced sound. I would change the part about Post-rock inflected Screamo myself but I thought I should go into discussions first. Rosscowderoy (talk) 09:41, 5 August 2011 (UTC)

Good idea, and if in your source adding you happen to find a source for Pianos Become The Teeth then be my guest. Jonjonjohny (talk) 10:41, 5 August 2011 (UTC)

my addition to Influence on other styles

I have re-written the section "Influence on other styles". If there is any issues with what I have written please put it in this discussion before deleting pieces. Jonjonjohny (talk) 22:48, 1 September 2011 (UTC)

Awesome job! I went in and corrected the grammar somewhat, though. --♫ Chris-B-Koolio ♫ ... (Talk) 03:12, 2 September 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for the corrections, the second paragraph on crunk and nintendeo -core still needs aditional stuff I think, maybe a bit of electronicore since some sources say it's screamo influenced. But that is for another time. Jonjonjohny (talk) 09:01, 2 September 2011 (UTC)

3rd wave, revival History

I was looking about and there appears to be this source about pg.99 reforming and talks a little bit about "Skramz" (terrible term)/possible revival of screamo. It's obvious terms like screamo and emo dropped out of favour because of "mislabeling" by mtv and other mainstream sources because they essentially called post-hardcore bands screamo and labeled emotional alternative rock bands as emo. But once the terms dropped out of favour after being burnt out and access to underground music through the internet was easier, intrest in these screamo bands got revived. (basically the last 4-6 years) I'm just outlining it like this just to give outline to the idea of why there is revieved intrests, they talk about the break ups of Orchid and City of Caterpillar as being a reason for its death (from pg.99's perspective). There may be other sources but I was curious if there is other people out there who are intrested in writing somthing like this. Jonjonjohny (talk) 14:53, 31 December 2011 (UTC)

That looks great. Though it would be important to distinguish which statements are by the band and which ones by the NPR writer.--¿3family6 _contribs 15:24, 31 December 2011 (UTC)

It appears the unbolded statements at the start is the introduction from Lars Gotrich (the writer) while the unbolded statements after the bold are answers from the band members in the Q&A, and in turn all bold statements are from the Gotrich. Jonjonjohny (talk) 15:32, 31 December 2011 (UTC)

Excellent source! I incorporated some of it into the section about the term's vagueness.--♪ ChrisBkoolio ... (Talk) 18:43, 31 December 2011 (UTC)

The Steez of Skramz

There was a source that was used on this page before from Something Awful. (Page 1Page 2) I was wondering why it was removed as it looks fairly useful. Is it not reliable? Jonjonjohny (talk) 13:56, 22 April 2012 (UTC)

Somewhere, can't remember where, someone questioned the source due to the comedy nature of the piece.--¿3family6 _contribs 02:34, 23 April 2012 (UTC)

Whats the difference between Metalcore, Hardcore Punk, and Screamo

Just wondering, please reply on my talk page using a basic explanation, because this has always confused me Ericdeaththe2nd (talk) 16:30, 23 April 2012 (UTC)ericdeaththe2ndEricdeaththe2nd (talk) 16:30, 23 April 2012 (UTC)

Answered on your talk page. --♪ ChrisBkoolio ... (Talk) 17:52, 23 April 2012 (UTC)

Right Wing

I remove the following sentence:

"Many screamo bands in the 1990s saw themselves as implicitly political, and as a reaction against the turn to the right."

Because I'm not sure who turned political or who turned to the right wing. Feel free to re-add it if a source can be found, but maybe we should use less vague language. Keitolainen (talk) 18:27, 13 June 2015 (UTC)