Talk:Sicilian language/Archive 1

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Request for Common Phrases

Could someone that knows about this (dialect?) language enter some phrases at Common phrases in different languages? I'd be curious to note how different they are from the Italian ones. Dori | Talk 19:26, Mar 11, 2004 (UTC)

english - italian - sicilian

Sicilian - siciliano - sicilianu
hello: ciao - ciau
good-bye: arrivederci - ni viriemu
please: per favore - pi fauri
thank you: grazie - grazzî
that one: quello - chiddu
how much? quanto - cuantu
English: inglese - nglisi
yes: sì - sì
no: no - no
sorry: scusa - scusassi
I don't understand: 'un capisciu
where's the bathroom?: dov'è il bagno - Unn'e' u vagnu
generic toast: salute - saluti

That's what I got from [1]. So should this article be separate, or should it be merged with Italian?

Dori | Talk 19:42, Mar 11, 2004 (UTC)

Separate. Why would it be merged with the page of a different language?

If it were the same language, there'd be no reason to have two different articles. Would you please sign your comments? Dori | Talk 02:00, Oct 18, 2004 (UTC)

More Examples

beware: accura - attenzione
before: antura - poco fa
now: astura - a quest' ora
idiot: babbu - stupido
buffet: buffetta - no exact Italian equivalent
to change: canciari - cambiare
boy/girl: carusu/a - ragazzo/a
neck: cuddu - collo
short: curtu - basso
there: ddà/dabbanna - là
epoch: ebica - epoca
woman: fimmina - donna
more: cchiù - più
smell: ciavuru - odore
he: iddu - lui
they: iddi - loro
finger: iitu - dito
january: innaru - gennaio
to go: iri - andare
to play: iucari - giocare
ugly: ladiu - brutto
beautiful: beddu - bello
left: manca - sinistra
to send: mpostari - imbucare
to peel: munnari - sbucciare
to guess: nzirtari - indovinare
for this: pichissu - per questo
shop: putia - bottega
pocket: sachetta - tasca
donkey: sceccu - asino
to raise: spingiri - alzare
sauce: sucu - salsa
to get up: susirisi - alzarsi
sister: soru - sorella
to enter: trasiri - entrare
empty: vacanti - vuoto
butcher: vucciri - macellaio
also: vide - anche
to kiss: vasari - baciare

I could go on like this for a week, and still only scratch the surface. Piccitto's 5 volume Sicilian dictionary goes for almost 6,000 pages and has about 250,000 Sicilian words in it, maybe a quarter of them are quite similar to the Italian, but about another quarter don't even have an exact Italian translation, i.e. the Sicilian vocabulary is absolutely immense, and is probably only rivalled by the English vocabulary for sheer size and richness. Salutamu. --pippudoz 03:53, 9 Nov 2004 (UTC)

~~how~~ did the "p" sound in the Latin word "plus" become the "k" sound in sicilian "cchiù?" If yes, how?

Probably more accurate to say that right across the board latin /pl/ became sicilian /ki/ or /kj/ (just as it became italian /pi/ e.g. chiazza = it. piazza, and there are many other examples. ρ¡ρρµ δ→θ∑ - (waarom? jus'b'coz!) 21:54, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

The following seems superfluous: "Pre-historic Sicily was inhabited by at least three ancient tribes--the Elymi, the Sicani, and the Siculi, all of whom are genetically linked to North Africans and Celts. It is more than likely, that the North Africans reached the island by sailing the width of the Mediterranean south to north); the Celts, on the other hand, took the overland route. The archaeological record shows that during the Neolithic, large groups of Celtic peoples migrated from the Caucuses region to the Mediterranean coast of Italy and established communities in and around present-day Milan." There is no information given on the Sicilian language in this whole paragraph, and additionally, the information is fairly questionable. Celtic peoples did not enter Italy until the Iron Age, not the neolithic. The Celts were probably just a tribe of ProtoIndoEuropeans during the neolithic-- though Milan was eventually founded by Gallic tribes coming from north of the alps around the 400s BCE. The proof of genetic relation is not stated-- the North African relation is certainly more realistic, however (especially given the spread of agriculture and early agriculturalists from the mideast). See the article on the Sicels, it is informative. Any thoughts on a change/deletion of this paragraph? D.E. Cottrell 05:24, 19 Nov 2004 (UTC)

In my household and immediate family Sicilian is the primary language. My grandparents moved here from San Biagio Platani, (Southern Sicily near Arigento), which means the way we speak is most influenced by Greek.

Just as a note, the Sicilian words you put up, a lot of them I do not even recognise. I have a feeling that those are old Sicilian words, Sicilian is increasingly becoming a dialect instead of a language due to the lack of international acceptance. There is not ISO or SIL language code for Sicilian despite its rich history and great difference from Italian. At this point however, I will say that there is no doubt in my mind that Sicilian is its own language. The first time I went to Italy, I attempted to Speak to a variety of People and no one north of Naples had any clue what I was saying.

- There is now an ISO code, as stated below. Also refer to the recent note left by Ninu who lives in Sicily and vouches for the continued use of these Sicilian words - they are not "old Sicilian words" they are actual Sicilian words known by anyone who speaks, reads and writes Sicilian. --pippudoz 01:10, 1 May 2005 (UTC)

I just want to mention that there is a huge amount of variation within Sicilian in terms of word choice, many words have foreign equivilants, which although may be mutually intelligible throughout Sicily are rarely used outside of the area where that group help the most influence. One example is that in the west Provençal has left its marks in the Comune where troops from Southern France were stationed.

Andare is much more common, Iri being left by the Spanish. to go: iri - andare

- yes but andare is italian - iri or jiri is the correct sicilian and is known by all who actually can speak and write sicilian - --pippudoz 01:10, 1 May 2005 (UTC)

We use Sucu to refer to Tomatoe sauce and "sarsa" to refer to all others. sauce: sucu - salsa In parts of Sicily you actually say Left hand / Right Hand, instead of Left and Right. Somewhat confusing. left: manca - sinistra Babbu - Spanish: "Bobo", Babbu is usually used as a Noun, but also is an Adjective. Example when someone says something stupid we say "parra come la babba", "talks like the idiot" literally. idiot: babbu - stupido mandare is more common

- once again madare is italian - mannari is correct sicilian - --pippudoz 01:10, 1 May 2005 (UTC)

to send: mpostari - imbucare more - ccù - più

- actually it's cchiù or chiù. --pippudoz 01:10, 1 May 2005 (UTC)

Basil in Sicilian comes from the Greek "Basilikon" So the stress is at the end instead of the beginning like the Italian.

One that is not in that list is "Here" which in italian is qui or qua, in Sicilian I usually hear "ccà" Somewhat like the Spanish "áca".

Many Sicilians find it difficult to read Sicilian, as it does not always represent their dialect, and most have grown used to reading Italian, and Speaking Sicilian. --Paolorausch 21:07, 5 Dec 2004 (UTC)

"Just as a note, the Sicilian words you put up, a lot of them I do not even recognise. I have a feeling that those are old Sicilian words". I am living in Sicily and we use this words on everyday life. Please if you do not live in Sicily how can you leave such comments? thanks Ninu

Sicilian, Italian

Did Sicilian develop "separately" from Vulgar Latin, or was it a continuous, common development from Vulgar Latin along with Italian? They're so close (linguistically & geographically), it was probably a common development. Alexander 007 01:35, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)

- Sicilian did not develop directly from the vulgar latin of late roman times as did most of the other romance languages. The extent of the influence of vulgar latin from roman times is under great dispute, but by 1000AD, the island's two main langauges were Arabic and Greek - if any latin did survive - and it's possible that it did - it's representation was miniscule and was destined to have little bearing on the Sicilian language that did develop. However, written Latin remained here and there as a lanaguage of prestige. The latinisation of the island (along with a move towards western christianity) began with the Norman conquest (1061-1091AD). We have to understand that the number of actual Normans was never the major part of the invading army, it was supplemented by lombards (from both the North and South) and other southern Italians, predominantly from around Campania. The Sicilian that was to emerge had as its base the vulgar latin spoken at that time by the southern Italians of around Campania - but with a very large influence from both Norman French and Lombard. Large Lombard colonies were set up in central Sicily, especially in Piazza Armerina, Aidone and Sperlinga - where to this day, they speak a gallic-Sicilian dialect. Then a contingent of Provencal merceneries were stationed in the town of San Fratello, who to this day speak an unusual provencal-Sicilian dialect. Thus, there are many words of provencal origin in the language. But this is complicated by the fact that with the union of the Sicilian and Aragonese crowns in the 14th century, with both Catalan and Sicilian as official languages of the Sicilian court, many Catalan words entered the language, followed soon after by the influence of Spanish. All of this happened over the orginal Arabic and Greek of the island, and obviously we have many words in our vocabulary from these two langauges. So on the one hand, you are right to say that Sicilian appears similar to Italian (because the vulgar latin of Campania of the 11th century would not have been too different to the vulgar latin of Tuscany-Lazio in the same period) - but on the other hand - there are many other influences on the language - many of which do not affect any other Italian dialect - or certainly not to the same degree. I forgot to mention that there are also German influence dating back to the Hohenstaufen reign. Lastly, when people note a superficial similarity between Italian and Sicilian, what they are really noting is the modern influx of Italianisms into modern spoken Sicilian since the war - whether we are witnessing the normal evolution of a language or its absolute distruction is a matter of debate and opinion. --pippudoz 00:42, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC)

For example, Sicilian is probably further from Northern Italian than Spanish is from Portuguese. On the other hand, people speaking in Northern Italian dialect can easily talk to people speaking the Southern French dialect. Thomas Eccardt, MA Linguistics, Yale 1977

Another cause for the resemblance between Sicilian and Tuscan is the fact that at a certain point (between the XII-XIV century) Sicilian was the literary language of choice between Italian intellectuals, and that the great Tuscan poets (even Dante himself) were imbibed of Sicilian poetries and terms.--Alessandro Riolo 18:44, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Anyway, from what I've seen about 85-90% of the swadesh list words are of Latin origin, although some of them have a quite different derivation path, such as Sicilian "mugghieri" (Italian moglie), Sicilian "iamma" (Italian gamba), Sicilian "tunnu" (Italian cerchio). However, there are some words I cannot connect with any word in Italian, Romanian, French or Spanish. bogdan ʤjuʃkə | ^Talk 08:28, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)

But how different is it from the Southern Italian dialects? But that's beside the point: I'm no longer questioning whether it can be considered a language. What I'm concerned with now is if it is Officially or Unofficially recognized as a language. Alexander 007 20:36, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)

Wikipedia should make a practice of specifying whether a given speech is officially considered a language, or whether it is not yet recognized officially. Alexander 007 02:20, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)

You know that a language is a dialect with an army. ;-) bogdan ʤjuʃkə | ^Talk 21:11, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)

It's true that Sicilian has no separate language status; but it does not mean that Sicilian is not a language. Even Sardinian, that is all but just a dialect, has no official recognition by the Italian government! I guess Sicilian won't be legally considered as "language" (at least for the near future), because of political reasons. By the way, ISO 639 includes Sicilian amongst its list of languages. That's why I guess it should be considered as a language, and not as a dialect. Anyway, you could take a look at the Sicilian Wikipedia version (yes, there is even a Sicilian one!) --Angelo.romano 00:40, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)

I have been away from en.wiki for a couple of weeks, so I am now a bit surprised (and bemused) to return and find this discussion. As the last contributor notes, Sicilian does have a language code and that is precisely why a Sicilian Wikipedia was formed (of which I am one of the founders and the current bureaucrat). Even the it.wiki article on Sicilian has dispensed with this as an issue, quoting ISO 639. So folks - it is no longer a question that needs to be asked. Having said all that - I agree with the deletion of the great slabs on the siculi, sicani and elemi - as interesting as that was - it belongs in the general history rather than the linguistic history of Sicily. The issue is not about whether it is a dialect or language - the issue is that we need a proper article written!! Salutamu e speru ca putemu passari u nostru tempu facennu cosi cchiù mpurtanti! --pippudoz 00:22, 26 Apr 2005 (UTC)

As the very person who asked the ISO 639-2 code for Sicilian to be assigned, I could only add that Sicilian was qualifing as a language for any requisite the mantainers of the standard were asking for, and not just barely, but by magnitude orders, as they recognized promptly assigning the code. --Alessandro Riolo 18:41, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Okay, if Sicilian has the official status of language, then the one major concern that I had here is no longer an issue. These details about its official status & language code were not found in the article---as they should be. Alexander 007 04:45, 21 May 2005 (UTC)

You are right - once again - the article needs a complete rewrite - I hope to have a go one day! Salutamu. --pippudoz 13:28, 21 May 2005 (UTC)

Pippudoz, thank you for enhancing the article, it looks great now. I also like the color you chose for the info box. Alexander 007 20:15, 5 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Is Sicilian really not understandable to someone speaking Italian? Is there any established system of spelling? Are there dictionaries or similar books on the grammar? Or are the Sicilians the “Scanians” of Italy? Most Swedish-spoken people have no problem understanding Scanians. There is no standard system of spelling Scanian: when people want to write it they use phonetic spelling according to Swedish rules. There is a Scanian dictionary but the guy who wrote it shows clearly that he is not qualified as a linguist. The words where picked and chosen from several varieties yet he treats them as if they belonged to a single one! Furthermore, he makes claims about it’s origin contrary to relevant historical knowledge. In other words Scanian is only a Swedish dialect that some people want to be an own language. I wonder if Sicilian is not in the same way just an Italian dialect.

2007-03-09 Lena Synnerholm, Märsta, Sweden.

With all due respect Lena, do you actually realise how idiotic your argument appears? As the sole source of your theory, you refer to some obscure vernacular for which a non-linguist created a dictionary. Is that it? Does your whole view on this subject rest on this obscure irrelevant fact? If you had some knowledge about Sicilian, about its history (to which Dante makes many references in the 14th century), about it's unique etymology, about its vast vocabulary (in my personal collection alone I have two separate dictionaries that run to 250,000 entries apiece, but there are many others), and I could go on, and on, and on - believe me - it's a non-issue. Rather than worrying about how different Sicilian is to Italian, you should be exploring how different Norwegian, Swedish and Danish are from each other! I promise you, you'd have a better chance of mounting a succesful argument on that front! πίππύ δ'Ω∑ - (waarom? jus'b'coz!) 04:16, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

I just asked for the evidence since I had never heard about any Sicilian LANGUAGE before I read the article Siculish. I did NOT try to disprove the existence of the language: I just provided a good example of false language claim. In fact, I have defended the existence of a separate Corsican language on the ground of a multual agreement on how to write. I am sceptic who have hard to predict the reactions of others, wich make it a hard for me to pay regard to others at all times.

2007-03-15 Lena Synnerholm, Märsta, Sweden.

Apart from the Ethnologue entry itself, there are references contained within the article itself. But that only scratches the surface, There are written materials in Sicilian going back 900 years, indeed, there are examples of written Sicilian that pre-date written Tuscan (the forerunner of today's Italian standard). Because Dante had an intimate knowledge of written Sicilian in the 14th century (and at one stage was recommending it as the lingua franca for the Italian peninsular), many scholars have put forward the theory that that the origins of a written Italian standard are almost as much influenced by the written Sicilian of the time as the written Tuscan of the time (indeed the intro to the article on the Italian language says as much). From around 1300 to 1450 Sicilian was used by the Kingdom of Sicily to maintain records of parliament and the courts - but once the kingdom came directly under the Spanish crown, Italian became more widespread, and ultimately it was used exclusively as the official language, while Sicilian became substantially an oral language. But anyone with a familiarity of the two will know that they are quite different (despite the common Latin root), with further differences in etymology and grammar. Taking an historical view, it is impossible to argue that Sicilian is a dialect of Italian; it is possible to argue that they are closely related. However, Sicilian has Norman French, Catalan, Provencal, Arabic and Greek influences that are simply not found in Italian - we're not talking about a few words - we are talking about thousands of words - and that's before we even consider the differences in grammar (which are many) and the sound shifts that have occurred in Sicilian from Latin that are not present in Italian, which are also quite extensive. By the way, I hope you didn't take the article on Siculish too seriously - it is in no way suggesting that there is such a language as Siculish, rather, that there is a tendency amongst Sicilian communities in Anglo countries to Sicilianise English words - which is hardly an earth-shattering claim (incentally, I have a memory of this tendency in my own family, as many Sicilian immigrants to Australia would). The most surprising aspect is that the same Sicilianised English words show up in the USA, Canada and Australia - why that is so is unclear. πίππύ δ'Ω∑ - (waarom? jus'b'coz!) 00:41, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

The word “Sicullish” stands for the typical way of speaking of South Italian immigrants in English-spoken countries. There is no Siculish language any more then there is a language called Franglais. Apparently, the relationship between Sicilian and Italian is similar to that between Serbian, Croatian and Serbo-Croatian. A lot of people talk about Serbo-Croatian as if it was a single language. If it had not been for the Yugoslavian civil war I would probably had been unaware of the differences between Serbian, Croatian and Bosnian. (The splitting of Yugoslavia was most likely inevitable. The ethnic tensions existed throughout the Cold War but where suppressed by the Communist regime.) If there is a mutual agreement on how to write Sicilian why is it not accepted as a language?

2007-03-16 Lena Synnerholm, Märsta, Sweden.

Please note that Wikipedia is neither a forum nor place for original researches. I mean, this is actually the right place for discussing about how much Sicilian looks like a standalone language. There are noted sources which refer to Sicilian as a "language", not a "dialect". That's well enough to me and everyone here. Period. --Angelo 13:22, 16 March 2007 (UTC)

Lena - why bring Serbo-Croatian into it? It is not analogous in the least. Sicilian is as far apart to Italian as Spanish is to Portughese. Once again, if you were to check the references included, you would cease to throw up comparisons that in fact have nothing to do with anything. πίππύ δ'Ω∑ - (waarom? jus'b'coz!) 01:23, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Sorry, but I know several cases when people call their dialect a language solely because they WANT to have a language of their own. Merely claiming that it is a language is not enough to me. After all, SIL International have been fooled to accept Jamtlandic as a language despite it is compleatly understandable to the majority of Swedes. Furthermore, there is no mutual agreement of how to write Jamtlandic any more then “spell phonetically according to Swedish rules”. I there is a greater agreement on how to write Sicilian today I will accept it as a language.

2007-03-27 Lena Synnerholm, Märsta, Sweden.

Wouldn't this be a more useful discussion if you had some idea of the history of the two languages? (i.e. Sicilian and Italian), or had some familiarity with the primary references included? I actually don't have to justify the validity of having this article, no more than you have to justifiy to me why Danish and Norwegian are considered separate languages (both being far closer to each other than Sicilian is to Italian). Wikipedia accepted Sicilian as a language due to the recognition given it by Ethnologue, and therefore the article exists. If you have any specific problems, point to any inaccuracies included within the article. Lastly, if a language has been predominantly oral for the last 900 years, does that make it any less valid than a language that has had a strong written tradtion over the same period? You're not making personal value judgements are you? I actually have personal copies of all the reference materials included in this article - if you were to immerse yourself in them, I promise you, you'd have very little difficulty accepting the recognition of Sicilian as a language separate to Italian. If you have an academic and scholarly problem with this recognition, perhaps you should lobby the Wikimedia board directly. πίππύ δ'Ω∑ - (waarom? jus'b'coz!) 23:51, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

My definition of “language” is NOT arbitrary. Written languages are defined by a mutual agreement on how to write. Non-written languages are defined as a group of mutually understandable dialects. Please, can you tell if Sicilian is understandable to someone who have Italian as his/her mother tongue?

2007-04-17 Lena Synnerholm, Märsta, Sweden.

The Wikipedia article on language appears to see things a little differently than you, perhaps you should begin there rather than here. But to answer your question, for the most part spoken Sicilian is not intelligible to most Italians. In terms of the written language, some can make sense of it and some can't, probably a bit like Danes, Norwegians and Swedes reading each other's languages. If you read this particular article, you would have noticed that Sicilian has: 1. its own grammatical structures which are quite different to Italian, 2. a far more varied etymology than Italian, 3. a series of sound shifts from Latin that did not occur in Italian, and 4. an absolutely immense vocabulary, due for the most part form the multitude of sub-strata that Italian does not possess. So when Salvatore wrote his dictionary, for 50,000 entries of Italian words, he found 250,000 Sicilian equivalents. Piccitto's 5 volume set runs to 6,000 pages and it too carries 250,000 separate Sicilian entries. I possess both in my private collection, amongst many other books and reference materials. In truth, it's simply an idiotic suggestion. As I once said, you would have better luck looking at the Nordic languages. Returning to your "personal" definition, which appears highly arbitrary to me, the Dutch have only finalised an agreed writing system in the last few decades - but clearly the Dutch language is a bit older (or would you disagree?). πίππύ δ'Ω∑ - (waarom? jus'b'coz!) 11:00, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Salentino dialect(s)

Salentino dialect(s) is/are very similar to Sicilian. Gerhard Rohlfs studied deeply this subject, and wrote a dictionary regarding these dialect(s); the following site contains some interesting and useful clues on the topic:

1 (in Italian)

2 (in English).

--Doktor Who 02:10, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

Sicily

Just wanted to mention that there's a bunch of text in the article Sicily describing the language which should probably go here. DopefishJustin (･∀･) 16:42, Jun 1, 2005 (UTC)

agreed - I've finally made a proper start on the language article - where appropriate I'll transfer parts of the Sicily article here (although some basic introductory info can probably remain). --pippudoz 21:21, 2 Jun 2005 (UTC)
well into the process of completing an absolutely brilliant article, I have taken off the "clean-up" sign! --pippudoz 13:14, 3 Jun 2005 (UTC)

My congratulations for the excellent clean up of this article. User:Gmelfi, 22:00, Jun 5, 2005 (CET)

Recognition

The article states, somewhat defensively:

"Sicilian is not recognised as an official language anywhere in the world, not even within Italy. There is currently no central body, in Sicily or elsewhere, that regulates the language in any way."

There is no central body, in Oxford or elsewhere, that regulates English in any way. It's a language. Who cares if either is 'recognised' 'officially' or not? User:Jigsawpuzzleman, Oct 18, 2005

I don't think it is meant to be defensive - it simply is stating a fact - also - if you could appreciate the effort I have gone through to even get this article off the ground with every second person seemingly wanting to ditch the whole idea - then maybe it's understandable why it might have come out looking a touch defensive (I accept it may look that way). Have you read all the comments in the Talk page from the start. That's without even looking at all the attacks I have had to endure (directly or indirectly) in both it.wiki and scn.wiki - I tell you - it's a hard slog daring to mention that Sicilian is a language (even to Sicilians!) - every second person wants to jump on you, beat you into submission and declare you as being POV - it makes one always wonder - who really is being POV in these sorts of discussions? The ones with armies to back them or the ones with history on their side? --pippudoz - (waarom? jus'b'coz!) 03:00, 19 October 2005 (UTC)

I understand and I'm sorry if I touched a sore spot. My experience concords with your comment that even sicilians are bashful about their language. It's bound to be considered by some as just a quirky way of speaking italian, but that's because it's rarely spoken pure but generally the two are mixed. Anyway, buon corragio! User:Jigsawpuzzleman, Nov 2, 2005

Template

To assist in showing correct phonetic symbols

Bold claim

Fram has rightly asked about a reference for the bold claim made in the opening line of this article. I do have the reference, that's not a problem, but I believe it to be very much a minority view - I just don't think the evidence is there to support it - and this article is currently based on the fact that any Latin that did survive on Sicily after the fall of the Roman empire did not have a lot of influence on the neo-latin language that arose from the Norman epoch (some 600 years later). So, I will add the reference, but I am going to move this claim to the end of the opening para to make it clear that it is very much a radical viewpoint. πίππύ δ'Ω∑ - (waarom? jus'b'coz!) 03:29, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

Possible expansion

I was wondering about writing a paragraph on the influence of Sicilian language in Italian language. There are so many Sicilian words and says which has become part of Italian language too, and I think it would be very interesting. --Angelo 14:40, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

Hi Angelo - I think that would be a fantastic contribution - try as a separate major heading - but it could well be that down the track it will become an article in its own right (with only a summary remaining on this page) - all depending on how you go - I can help with copy editing if need be, and I might even have some additional references. I look forward to seeing it! ρ¡ρρµ δ→θ∑ - (waarom? jus'b'coz!) 23:18, 27 July 2006 (UTC)

San Fratellan

I noticed that someone has included San Fratellan as a Sicilian dialect (parratu nnû paisi di San Frateddu). But I do not think it is actually a dialect of the Sicilian language as such, but rather a form of Gallo-siculo and should perhaps be mentioned in there rather than here (being on par with similar idioms spoken in Piazza Armerina, Nicosia, Sperlings, etc). I believe there is already a link to that other article within this one. πίππύ δ'Ω∑ - (waarom? jus'b'coz!) 07:23, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

Indeed, I just checked the article: Gallo-siculo, and it is already mentioned there. If no one protests in the next 24 hours I will make the necessary adjustment. πίππύ δ'Ω∑ - (waarom? jus'b'coz!) 07:25, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

Sicilian or Italianized Sicilian??

I think that to say there are 4.8 million speakers of Sicilian is greatly over-stated. This would mean most people living in Sicily continue to speak Sicilian and this is simply not true. Most Sicilians, like all Italians really, now tend to speak a regional variation of standard Italian- in addition to standard Italian. In Sicily, today they speak an Italianized Sicilian vernacular- not the true Sicilian of a century ago. Elements of the original Sicilian are still strong enough to make it unique but it is now, for the most part, comprehendable to other italians. In any event, this should considered in the article and it seems Ethnologue misses this point with all of its references to Italian languages/ dialects. Any thoughts? Mariokempes 21:48, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

There is a Sicilian Italian, yes. And there is Sicilian too. If you read the article, you may discover that Sicilian language is not more comprehendable to Italians than other Romance languages such as Catalan and Spanish. I am from Sicily, and I can ensure you that Sicilian language (I mean Sicilian language, not Sicilian-Italian) is still alive and well in the island. Anyway, as discussed above, even ISO considered language as a standalone language, not just Ethnologue. --Angelo 23:57, 4 April 2007 (UTC)

Fully back what Angelo says. On top of that, you have to consider that large numbers of immigrant communities in the US, Canada and Australia (not to mention in Northern Italy and other EC countries) continue to speak Sicilian at home. I still speak Sicilian with my parents and older relatives. And as Angelo says, there is a clear distinction between Regional Italian (Sicilianised Italian) and Sicilian - they are two different things. While in Regional Italian you might hear: devu comprari (the endings of both verbs being sicilianised); correct Sicilian would be one of haiu a 'ccattari or haiu a accattari. Comprari does not exist as a Sicilian word, by that I mean, look up complete dictionaries like Piccitto and Camilleri, both of which carry 250,000 entries, and you will not find it. This is where many, Sicilians included, get very confused as to what the Sicilian language is, and what Regional Italian is. πίππύ δ'Ω∑ - (waarom? jus'b'coz!) 11:45, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

I'm glad to hear Sicilian is alive and well, and I don't disagree with what Pippu and Angelo say... but I still think that what is spoken today is very italianized and many (if not most) speak an italian version of sicilian... not the true sicilian of two or three generations ago. Ethnologue claims there are 4.8m speakers. That is pretty much everyone in Sicily and the reality is perhaps half routinely speak true Sicilian (At least that is my perception... 'u sicilianu beddu beddu, cum'ii nanni ). The question for me is does Ethnologue claim that figure for true sicilian or does it include what is now an Italian dialect in the true sense? It makes a similar claim about Veneto and I can guarantee that almost everyone that speaks "Veneto" actually speaks an Italian dialect and not the true historical Veneto. This is just an observation and "food for thought". Mariokempes 17:59, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

Mario - Ethnologue has probably just taken the population of Sicily, and whacked that number in. Many Sicilians today would do not speak Sicilian correctly, I think that is correct, especially amongst the young. However, balancing that fact is the fact that there are many outside of Sicily who can and do speak Sicilian correctly - but I doubt anyone has a clear idea on how many there are. So there are two options: to simply go with the Ethnologue figure, even though we are unsure whether that represents a valid estimate or whether it merely represents the present population of Sicily (and we agree that if it's the latter it would not represent a valid estimate); or we put in "unknown" - although I would not be able to vouch that it is correct to say that the figure is unknown - I, personally, do not know, which is quite a different matter. πίππύ δ'Ω∑ - (waarom? jus'b'coz!) 08:49, 9 April 2007 (UTC)

Well put. I re-read the article (to which I am sure you were a major contributor) and noticed the points I was making were already alluded to further along. On another note, I've recently expanded Calabrian languages, which I think still has a long way to go. Please have a look when you get the chance- I think it could benefit from some of your input (and Angelo's). saluti Mariokempes 19:22, 16 April 2007 (UTC)

Beddu vs. Bello

I'm curious as to why Sicilian words frequently use a "dd" in place of the "ll" in many corresponding Italian words. Can anyone answer this question? Thank you.

There are a dozen or so sound shifts that occurred between Latin and Sicilian that did not occur in Italian, or that went a different way in Italian. Indeed some of these sound shifts follow the same pattern even for words that are of Greek, Arabic, Norman French, Provencal, German, Catalan and Spanish words. These include (amongst others, and sorry, sometimes I've mixed up the order of the Latin - Sicilian words):

LL becomes DD: addivari - allevare; amuddiri - ad-molire; beddu - bellus; coddu - collum; dda - illâ; ddu" - illum; moddu - mollis; nuddu - nullus; peddi - pellis; sedda - sella; stidda - stella.
FL becomes CI: flamma - ciamma; flatus - ciatu; flare - ciatari; franc. flairer - ciurari; flumen - ciumi; florem - ciuri; florire - ciuriri.
SS becomes SCI: vasciu - bassus; or ZZ: pozzu - possum
ND becomes NN: abbunnari - abundare; abbannunari - abbandonare; abbanniari - bandjan (gothic), accènniri - accendere; appenniri - appendere; benna - binde (German); cunnannatu - condemnatus; cunnuciri - conducere; emennari - emendare; funnu - fundus; munnu - mundus; quannu - quando; stenniri - extendere; vinnitta - vindicta.
ST becomes SS: avissi - habuisti; fussi - fuisti.
MV and NV becomes MM: in-velenare - mmilinari; inventare - mmintari; in veritate - mmiritati.
MB becomes MM: da lambere - allammicari; catacomba - catacummi; combattere - cummattiri; succumbere - succummiri; trumba - trumma
B often becomes V at the start of a word: balneum - vagnu; bilancem - valanza; barca - varca; barba - varva; basiare - vasari; basium - vasatu; bassus - vasciu; bovem - voi; boscus - voscu; blond - vrunnu; bucca - vucca; bollire - vugghiri; bursa - vurza; brachium - vrazzu
PL becomes CHI: planum - chianu; plango - chianciu; plantare - chiantari; platea - chiazza.

I might stop there. Thinking about it, there are probably many more sound shifts, and I haven't even looked at vowells yet. The important point is to remember that these are not sound shifts from Italian to Sicilian, they are sound shifts from the vulgar Latin at the time of the Norman invasion to Sicilian. The influence of Italian on Sicilian has only existed the last century, otherwise, Sicilian has undergone a different development to Italian, allowing for the fact that they both initially derive from a form of vulgar Latin that was closely related (1,000 years ago). πίππύ δ'Ω∑ - (waarom? jus'b'coz!) 23:36, 12 April 2007 (UTC)

Last name question

My last name is Spateri, and according to this there is/was a word called spatari, and it meant "to impede or disarm someone of his sword (from espadar)". So is that what my last name means?

Translate Extracts into Italian

If someone could translated the extracts into Italian instead of English, that would be much more helpful and useful for those of us trying to understand the differences between the two languages.LCP 22:59, 2 May 2007 (UTC)

the identical extracts are included in the Italian version of this article. πίππύ δ'Ω∑ - (waarom? jus'b'coz!) 23:26, 3 May 2007 (UTC)

I added the text from Wikipedia Italia, but "Extract from Giovanni Meli" is still lacking a translation. I also added the Latin transion of the Pater Noster. BTW, there are so many "minor" edits around this effort becuase I messed up the formatting (which I have since corrected).LCP 20:27, 7 May 2007 (UTC)

Contractions

The circumflex is commonly used in denoting a wide range of contractions in the written language, in particular, the joining of simple prepositions and the definite article. Examples: di lu = dû (of the), a lu = ô (to the), pi lu = pû (for the), nta lu = ntô (in the), etc. This feature is shared with Portuguese and French, but not with Italian, which instead undergoes gemination (di la = della).

On a first reading, it might seem like what Sicilian shares with Portuguese and French is the use of the circumflex to indicate contractions, which is not true (the circumflex does not indicate contraction in Portuguese). Moreover, the Italian di la = della is also a kind of contraction. FilipeS 16:16, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Agreed - someone has added that last sentence, and I don't think it makes too much sense at all. πίππύ δ'Ω∑ - (waarom? jus'b'coz!) 23:00, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

Past Tense

I may be missing something, but the article states "the Past tense ... is replaced by the Past Perfect Subjunctive". I'm not sure this is entirely true. To me, one of the distinguishing features of Sicilian (which often makes its way into standard Italian when spoken by a native sicilian) is the ubiquitous use of the passato remoto as the normal past tense. Mariokempes 23:41, 20 August 2007 (UTC)

What you have said is spot on. While it may not be all that clear (and I didn't write it), but the bit you refer to is actually referring to the conditional past tense, i.e. I would have [past participle] ... In that case, I guess you could say that we are using the past perfect subjunctive in Sicilian, e.g. avissi [past participle]. πίππύ δ'Ω∑ - (waarom? jus'b'coz!) 13:11, 21 August 2007 (UTC)

Padanian influence??!

In the other gallic influences section the word Padanian is used. This should be removed immediately, it has no linguistic or even geographical significance. It is an invented word from the Northern Italian seperatist/nationalist movement, its an invented land, an invented definition. This word has no place here. Objectively if you talk about language you should not use such a word which is purely a political invention. Eus2 16:21, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

What you say is partly correct, but I acknowledge the unfortunate connotations of the term. I've changed it to "Gallo-Italic". πίππύ δ'Ω∑ - (waarom? jus'b'coz!) 06:25, 2 October 2007 (UTC)

Greek revival under Justinian I?

I've placed a fact tag on the idea of the restoration of Greek after the Empire reconquered Sicily in the 530s. Why would this bring back Greek? The people remained as they were, and the official language was still Latin, so soldiers and governmental officials would be using it. Nyttend 15:13, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

Greek survived on the island throughout the Roman period, indeed survived on the island right up to the 13th century. Calabria and Apulia have small Greek-speaking communities to the present day. It's true that Latin was viewed favourably right up to the Arab period, but there are very few linguists who are of the view that the Sicilian of the high-middle ages came from an unbroken link with any Latin that survived on the island during the Arab period (whereas Greek most definitely did survive, and in large numbers). I should have plenty of references at home to back that up, and will try and add something tonight. πίππύ δ'Ω∑ - (waarom? jus'b'coz!) 04:54, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

Wrong Phrases

I've found a mistake in this phrases: - Siddu fussi riccu m’accattassi nu palazzu — If I were rich I would buy a palace. - Siddu avissi travagghiatu nun avissi patutu la misèria — If I had worked I wouldn’t have suffered the misery. "Siddu" is not "if I", but is "if he"; "If I" is translated with "S'" (ex: S'avissi travagghiatu = If I had worked) I had erased and corrected. Sorry for probably bad english. BabyJenks —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.10.162.25 (talk) 15:02, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

I've found another mistake, in a grammar references... 3) by using a compound form consisting of the appropriate conjugation of jiri a in combination with the infinitive form of the verb in question:

   Stasira vaiu a jiri ô tiatru — This evening I'm going to the theatre.
   Dumani ti vaiu a scrìviri — Tomorrow I’m going to write to you.

It is not the conjugation of verb "jiri" but it's ONLY "aviri". Stasira vaiu a jiri o tiatru is wrong, the right is "stasira aiu a jiri o tiatru". The verb "jiri" is used only like the verb "go to", "andare" italian, it hasn't another use. I corrected it. I am BabyJenks, and you can find me on italian wikipedia. Salutamu. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.10.162.25 (talk) 16:32, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

Both ways are wrong. "Stasira haiu a jiri o tiatru" means "This evening I have to go to the theatre", so I don't really think it is the correct translation. I would instead say "Stasira vaiu a lu triatru". --Angelo 16:35, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

Rispondo in italiano. La traduzione inglese era "I'm going to", inteso come futuro intenzionale, non come "have to" verbo dovere... Non intendevo un "devo andare" ma un'esatta traduzione di "ho intenzione di"^^ —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.10.162.25 (talk) 16:38, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

Se in Sicilia te dici "aiu a jiri a quacchi banna" si intende chiaramente (almeno dalle mie parti) come il "devo andare da qualche parte" ("I gotta go somewhere"), dove il "devo" è proprio verbo "dovere". "I am going to do sthg.", in italiano "sto per fare qualcosa", in siciliano si rende come "staiu pì ffari quarchi ccosa" o "staiu jennu a ffari quarchi ccosa" (dipende dal contesto, ovviamente). --Angelo 16:48, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

Credo sia una differenza allora, fra zona e zona. Dalle mie parti, il verbo dovere è usato per esprimere lo stesso concetto che in inglese si dà al "going to" inteso come "ho intenzione di fare/farò". Un esempio, "ho intenzione di andare a casa" (I'm gonna go to home) o "andrò a casa"; è reso in siciliano con " Iu aiu a jiri a casa". Che stranezza. Per esempio, un —Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.10.162.25 (talk) 17:05, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

I agree mostly with what Angelo has written. I would agree that vaiu a jiri sounds extremely cumbersome to my ears and would probably never be used like that. I would add, however, that the construction of vaiu a + {verb} most certainly exists in Sicilian with almost the identical meaning as the English: "going to" + {verb}. As an example: Tomorrow I'm going to have a look at {whatever} - Dumani vaiu a vardari/guardari {zoccu è è}. That has a slightly different meaning to: haiu a vardari/guardari which means, as Angelo has correctly pointed out: I must have a look at or I must go and see (equivalent of Italian devo...). Salutamu!! πίππύ δ'Ω∑ - (waarom? jus'b'coz!) 01:35, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Expert review of adjustments

I made some changes for clarity to the "Unique sounds" and I think also the "Gemination and contractions" sections, that need to be reviewed to make sure they are still correct. The original was quite muddled, so it's impossible to be certain that the clarifications introduced actually reflect the intent of the ambiguous original material. — SMcCandlish [talk] [cont] ‹(-¿-)› 03:12, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

Since I own all of the references used in this article (and wrote the bulk of it) - I am going to start the long laborious process of putting in all the citations (ugh!) - I know I should have started doing it a long time ago - I've just been too lazy... :] πίππύ δ'Ω∑ - (waarom? jus'b'coz!) 00:06, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

It would be more convenient if you added the references with <ref>Giarrizzo, 1989</ref>. You can give names to references that repeat, like this <ref name=Giarrizzo>Giarrizzo, 1989</ref>, and refer to them later like this, <ref name=Giarrizzo/> Regards. FilipeS (talk) 00:01, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

I have to admit that I find this whole referencing business on Wiki quite confusing because there are about 10 formats floating around. I simply went to the guide recommended by SMcCandlish and just followed it as best I could. I take the point that I need not have repeated the year for a reference used so often, such as Giarrizzo - I might fix that up later. Everything now looks fully referenced except for the very last bit on the "Language situation today". To be honest, what's mentioned there is quite common knowledge, how much it need be referenced I don't know. πίππύ δ'Ω∑ - (waarom? jus'b'coz!) 00:13, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

Sicilian pronunciation of -ce, -ci

I speak a very poor Italian, but during my holidays in Sicilia I noticed that the sounds which are represented in Italian language by -ce, -ci (sounds tʃe, tʃi)are pronounced rather as -sce, -sci (in English spelling, -she, -shi). It this assumption correct?--Xareu bs (talk) 10:46, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

The sounds "ce"/"ci" can be pronounced /tʃ/ or /ç/. In some dialects of Sicilian language, it is pronounced /ç/ at the beginning of a word or between vowels (cettu /ˈçetːu/ "of course"; amici /aˈmiçi/ "friends"). When it follows "n", it is pronounced /tʃ/ (canciari /kanˈtʃari/ "to change"). But in some other variants of Sicilian, /tʃ/ is more common (you can hear /tʃetːu/, /aˈmitʃi/. Paryeshakaya (talk) 18:24, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

I was meaning Sicilian people when speaking Italian. I think one of the guys I´m talking about was from Catania, as he had many figures of elephants on his bar.--Xareu bs (talk) 17:17, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

It applies also to Italian spoken by some Sicilians. I am from Messina,and we alternate /tʃ/ or /ç/ as I explained above ;-) Paryeshakaya (talk) 18:08, 4 September 2008 (UTC)