Talk:Slavery in ancient Greece

Picture – Slavery Conditions section

The section Slavery Conditions has a picture of a black captive. The caption refers to Ptolemaic Egypt. There is nothing to connect it with Greece, and it could give the misleading impression that slaves in ancient Greece were typically black. This image ought to be deleted. Sweet6970 (talk) 10:58, 31 May 2020 (UTC)

I have now deleted the picture. Sweet6970 (talk) 10:00, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

The Ptolemaic Kingdom was a period of Greek rule of Egypt that lasted for centuries, so the image is connected with Greek slavery. I will restore the image. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 23:08, 10 June 2020 (UTC)

Aristotle did write that blacks were better slaves, and that black women were incapable of feeling pleasure, for example. I'd say blackness and slavery was tied (if not synonimous by a stretch) in this period, as greeks considered all "barbarians" as having special potential as slaves. 181.94.6.50 (talk) 06:32, 22 August 2022 (UTC)

@Cullen328: This article is about slavery in ancient Greece. There is no mention in the article of slavery in the Hellenistic kingdoms. The only mention of Egypt in the article is in the caption to the picture. Therefore, I do not accept your argument that because this image comes from Ptolemaic Egypt, that it is appropriate in an article about slavery in Greece. Also, you have not answered my point that the image could give the misleading impression that slaves in ancient Greece were typically black. Do you have some other reason for reinstating the image? Sweet6970 (talk) 09:43, 14 June 2020 (UTC)

@Sweet6970: Please do at least some research before you remove materials from pages. The information provided with the image gives you an easy way to find the Louvre webpage on the piece, which is here. "This bronze statuette shows a black adolescent with his hands bound behind his back, a subject that was highly prized in the late Hellenistic and Roman periods. . . . As in the example of this young slave with his hands bound, small figures of black children in bronze or terra-cotta, in a variety of attitudes, were extremely abundant." Reading the Louvre page on a piece in the Louvre is what I would consider the bare minimum amount of research I would expect someone to put in before deleting something. Ikjbagl (talk) 14:46, 14 June 2020 (UTC)

You have not answered my points. (1) This image has nothing to do with ancient Greece.(2) It could give the false impression that slaves in ancient Greece were typically black. Sweet6970 (talk) 14:52, 14 June 2020 (UTC)

As there has been no reply to my points, I am intending to delete this image. Sweet6970 (talk) 09:25, 16 June 2020 (UTC)

@Sweet6970: You have two people who disagree with you, so that doesn't seem like a good idea. (1) "This image has nothing to do with ancient Greece" is ridiculous; the statue depicts "a subject highly prized in the late Hellenistic and Roman periods." (2) It does not give that impression. Ikjbagl (talk) 17:16, 16 June 2020 (UTC)

(1) It is not ridiculous to say ‘This image has nothing to do with ancient Greece.’ Egypt is not Greece. Egypt is not mentioned in the text of the article. Rome is not Greece. The article about the image you have referred me to says nothing about ancient Greece. (2) How can it not give that impression? Are you happy that a Wikipedia article feeds the assumption that slaves have always been black, and that black people have always been slaves?

As for having two people who disagree with me - I had two people who had not addressed either of my reasons for deleting the image, and who had not replied to my latest request for their reasons. I gave notice on this Talk page on 31 May, before I deleted the image, and no-one raised any objections. No-one objected when I deleted the image on 4 June. The first ‘contrary’ indication was when the deletion was reverted on 10 June. Sweet6970 (talk) 21:36, 16 June 2020 (UTC)

@Sweet6970: (1) If you were unaware, the word "Hellenistic" refers to ancient Greece and Greek history. (2) Don't put your words in my mouth. I and at least one other editor so far disagree with your premise. It's almost as ridiculous as your notion about an artistic painting being an example of child porn and "19th century pedophilia" on the Slavery in ancient Rome page.

Wikipedians are not obliged to respond with lightning-speed. The discussion has clearly matured since June 4. Ikjbagl (talk) 05:30, 17 June 2020 (UTC)

@Ikjbagl: (1) No, it doesn’t. See Hellenistic period, which includes:
After Alexander the Great's invasion of the Achaemenid Empire in 330 BC and its disintegration shortly after, the Hellenistic kingdoms were established throughout south-west Asia (Seleucid Empire, Kingdom of Pergamon), north-east Africa (Ptolemaic Kingdom) and South Asia (Greco-Bactrian Kingdom, Indo-Greek Kingdom). The Hellenistic period was characterized by a new wave of Greek colonization[5] which established Greek cities and kingdoms in Asia and Africa.[6] This resulted in the export of Greek culture and language to these new realms, spanning as far as modern-day India. Equally, however, these new kingdoms were influenced by the indigenous cultures, adopting local practices where beneficial, necessary, or convenient. Hellenistic culture thus represents a fusion of the Ancient Greek world with that of the Near East, Middle East, Northeast Africa and Southwest Asia.[7] This mixture gave rise to a common Attic-based Greek dialect, known as Koine Greek, which became the lingua franca through the Hellenistic world.

(2) (a) I was not putting words in your mouth. (b) The other editor has never replied to either of my points.

(3) There was no discussion before 10 June – I was talking to myself. No-one showed any interest in this until I deleted the image in the other article.

(4) Since this article is about slavery in ancient Greece, not slavery in the Hellenistic kingdoms – what justification do you have for retaining the image in this article? Sweet6970 (talk) 22:33, 17 June 2020 (UTC)

@Sweet6970: If you go to the Ancient Greece page, you can see references to the Greek colonies in Egypt that were founded in the Hellenistic period. The statue we're talking about "is an original example of the taste for the exotic which seems to have taken root in the Greek cities of the Nile delta, such as Naukratis and Alexandria[, d]uring the Hellenistic period" (from the Louvre link above). I'll also direct you to the Ptolemaic Kingdom page and let you Ctrl+F "Gree". Ikjbagl (talk) 00:04, 18 June 2020 (UTC)

• I continue to oppose removal of the image, because Egypt was under the rule of a Greek dynasty at the time, and as Ikjbagl points out, is representative of a common type of image of slavery in Greek society. There is no consensus to remove the image. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 22:44, 17 June 2020 (UTC)
• I am done arguing with Sweet6970; the arguments are ridiculous. When you have to explain to a user that a painting can depict something that happened in the past, you start to wonder whether the argument is worth having. Reasons to keep the picture have been adequately explained (more than once). There is no consensus to remove the picture. Ikjbagl (talk) 00:04, 18 June 2020 (UTC)

I have had enough of trying to engage in rational discussion. This is obviously a hopeless enterprise. Sweet6970 (talk) 10:30, 18 June 2020 (UTC)

Since the image was removed despite Sweet6970 clearly being in the minority (actually, alone) the image should be restored. 181.94.6.50 (talk) 06:35, 22 August 2022 (UTC)

FA in need of review

This is an older Featured Article that is in need of a review. In particular, I have the following concerns:

• heavy use of ancient, primary sources such as Athenaeus, Lysias, Thucydides, Plutarch, Xenophon, Diodorus Siculus, Aristotle, Heraclitus, Antiphon, Aristid Decatur, Ctesicles, Demosthenes, the Book of Deuteronomy, Herakleides Lembos, Plato, Menander, Strabo, Alcibiades, and I'm probably missing someone - secondary sources are preferred;
• Citations need clean up:

• Mix of modern and ancient sources as if it was the same thing;
• Unsourced notes like See Foucart for further reading. and Mycenean transliterations can be confusing and do not directly reflect pronunciation; for clarification see the article about Linear B.
• (Economics, 1344a35), (Odyssey, 16:140–1), (Laws, 11:915 a–c.), for instance - all citations need authors;

• Further Reading is gigantic - shouldn't some of those works be used in the article?
• the heavy reliance of this article on French sources makes me think if we are missing significant English sources;
• should we be using papyrus fragments directly as sources? (for instance, Apud Athenaeus, 6:265bc = FGrH 115, fgt.122.)

I think this article needs work to keep the star. RetiredDuke (talk) 20:26, 21 January 2021 (UTC)

Slaves in Plato's republic?

I have read the Republic in whole and don't remember any positive mention of slaves existing. The text however asserts that they are in "10:469". However, book ten starts in page 595, as can be seen publicly here. Therefore, slavery could have not been justified in a page that does not exist (there is no link either, nor a secondary source). I will try to remove this reference, until positive proof and more sources can be found. 181.94.6.50 (talk) 06:26, 22 August 2022 (UTC)

I was able to confirm that the reference is basically apocryphal. There is a mention of slavery in page 469 (which is in book five, not ten) but the only thing it says is that greeks should be forbidden to take other greeks into slavery after a war.181.94.6.50 (talk) 06:43, 22 August 2022 (UTC)

Wiki Education assignment: ARCN 211 Material Histories of Labor

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 4 January 2023 and 15 March 2023. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Ellie.simon (article contribs).

— Assignment last updated by Sak201 (talk) 13:41, 24 January 2023 (UTC)

Plato owned five slaves?

Plato would not have owned slaves. Plato himself was sold into slavery by Sparta shortly after Socrates death. Plato’s school, the Academy, students attended for free, but worked at the school, similar to monks living, studying at a monastery. Please, someone correct this disinformation. 2601:400:C180:D60:602D:FF6:71A7:5D50 (talk) 20:59, 26 April 2024 (UTC)