Talk:Soviet Union and the Arab–Israeli conflict

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This definetly needs to be expanded. The Soviets provided the Arabs with thousands of tanks, planes, personnel and in the War of Attrition, Soviet Fighters themselves were patrolling the skies above Egypt.I don't know the specifics - so if someone could check this out that would be great.Tourskin 02:41, 10 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

It also needs to be revised. It is written in a seemingly pro-Zionist manner, or atleast does not seem very even handed in its depiction of communist views of Zionism. --Agent of the Reds 21:44, 5 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Suggest merge of Zionology into Soviet Union and the Arab-Israeli conflict[edit]

This article overlaps substantially with Zionology, and a merge seems to be indicated. --John Nagle 19:14, 18 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

  • No Hmmm... My first reaction is that the ideal article on this subject would probably provide at least the current content on the current subjects, but would contain much more on the non-ideological components of its eponymous subject. After all, it seems the ideology was cut to fit the geopolitics, not the other way around. So, copy anything useful to Zionology to that article(which may need to be renamed Soviet anti-Zionism if Zionology is as obscure a term as its talk page indicates) but leave this as a stub which can be built upon. Andyvphil 08:56, 19 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Reading both articles again, part of the problem is that the Soviet Union and the Arab-Israeli conflict is mostly about ideology and propaganda issues, not about USSR military and material support (weapons, money) for the Arab side in the earlier Arab-Israeli wars. We need some input from military history buffs, who can add things like lists of weapons systems. --John Nagle 17:07, 19 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Add it to WikiProject Military History, that would be the first step in attracting attention from those folks. --Abnn 22:55, 26 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I agree that this article has too much that more properly belongs in Zionology and that that article should be renamed Soviet anti-Zionism. This article should focus on political, diplomatic and military relations to the conflict, which deserve a much expanded treatment. I'll do a little on this now.John Z 03:38, 2 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]


:NO. This is deliberate stunt to dilute the valuable insight and data in the "Zionology" entry. Cross pollinate data by all means, but keep it SEPARATE.

  • NO merge. Zionology is a notable, important and independent historical topic, especially since it's an anti-Zionist ideology in its own right, and probably still exists today in Russia as a sentiment against Zionism. — EliasAlucard / Discussion 11:16, 24 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

No, the Soviet Union was not the first country to grant "de jure recognition" of Israel.[edit]

That is an oft-repeated error on WP articles, and it is demonstrably false. Unfortunately this article is locked for editing. It is simply not the case that the Soviet Union distinguished between de-facto and de-jure recognition of Israel. The communique of the Soviet FM Molotov simply stated that the USSR had decided to "recognize officially" the new State of Israel and its provisional government.
http://cojs.org/russ_recognize_israel-_associated_press-_san_francisco_chronicle-_may_18-_1948/
The United States' letter of recognition on May 15 did not make the distinction between "de facto" and "de jure" recognition of the STATE of Israel, and gave unqualified recognition to the State of Israel. It was the Provisional Government thereof that was given de facto recognition. This fact was confirmed by the State Department.
https://history.state.gov/historicaldocuments/frus1948v05p2/d460
The Acting United States Representative at the United Nations (Jessup) to the Secretary of State, July 13, 1948: "It is our understanding that US recognition of State of Israel is unqualified, that is, de jure, while our recognition of PGI was a de facto recognition of government that state. Is this interpretation correct?"
The State Department, on July 15, stated its agreement with New York’s understanding and set forth its belief that “in cases of recognition of new states as distinguished from new govts no question of de facto as against de jure recognition is involved.”
Thus, the first country to officially recognize the State of Israel was the United States, not the Soviet Union, and neither country distinguished between "de facto" and "de jure" in their recognition of the State of Israel. Jacob D (talk) 07:28, 27 April 2017 (UTC)Jacob D[reply]

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Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 20 March 2018[edit]

If this article is under extended lock for editing, then I would at least like to have my recommendations addressed, going back almost a year now, regarding information in the article which is factually incorrect, and refuted by documentation. To repeat what I have written on the Talk page of this article (as well as on the Talk page of the locked WP article entitled International recognition of Israel:
The Soviet Union was not the first country to grant "de jure recognition" of Israel.
That is an oft-repeated error on WP articles, and it is demonstrably false. It is simply not the case that the Soviet Union distinguished between de-facto and de-jure recognition of Israel. The communique of the Soviet FM Molotov simply stated that the USSR had decided to "recognize officially" the new State of Israel and its provisional government.
http://cojs.org/russ_recognize_israel-_associated_press-_san_francisco_chronicle-_may_18-_1948/
The United States' letter of recognition on May 15 did not make the distinction between "de facto" and "de jure" recognition of the STATE of Israel, and gave unqualified recognition to the State of Israel. It was the Provisional Government thereof that was given de facto recognition. This fact was confirmed by the State Department.
https://history.state.gov/historicaldocuments/frus1948v05p2/d460
The Acting United States Representative at the United Nations (Jessup) to the Secretary of State, July 13, 1948: "It is our understanding that US recognition of State of Israel is unqualified, that is, de jure, while our recognition of PGI was a de facto recognition of government that state. Is this interpretation correct?"
The State Department, on July 15, stated its agreement with New York’s understanding and set forth its belief that “in cases of recognition of new states as distinguished from new govts no question of de facto as against de jure recognition is involved.”
Thus, the first country to officially recognize the State of Israel was the United States, not the Soviet Union, and neither country distinguished between "de facto" and "de jure" in their recognition of the State of Israel.
Jacob D (talk) 15:01, 20 March 2018 (UTC)Jacob D Jacob D (talk) 15:01, 20 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
 Not done: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit extended-protected}} template. While the Soviet Union may not have recognized a difference between de facto recognition and de jure recognition, the United States did and still does. The quotes you have posted above explicitly make that distinction clear. See also the International recognition of Israel article, especially this part: ...the provisional government was promptly recognised by the United States as the de facto authority of Israel.... The Soviet Union was the first country to recognise Israel de jure on 17 May 1948... The United States extended de jure recognition after the first Israeli election, on 31 January 1949. These statements are well-cited to The Times of London, to the Harry Truman Library, and to the Jewish Virtual Library. Altering this article in this way is outside the bounds of a simple edit request and will require you to establish a consensus among interested editors. You may want to create a request for comments to gauge whether such a consensus exists. Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 15:33, 20 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@Eggishorn:, Please read again carefully the text of the communication in the State department document which I cited.
https://history.state.gov/historicaldocuments/frus1948v05p2/d460
The Acting United States Representative at the United Nations ( Jessup ) to the Secretary of State (July 13, 1948): "it is our understanding that US recognition of State of Israel is unqualified, that is, de jure, while our recognition of PGI [Provisional Government of Israel] was a de facto recognition of government that state. Is this interpretation correct?"

The Department, on July 15, stated its agreement with New York’s understanding and set forth its belief that “in cases of recognition of new states as distinguished from new govts no question of de facto as against de jure recognition is involved.” (Telegram 465, 501.BB Palestine/7–1348)
This communication is in reference to Truman's initial recognition of the State of Israel on May 14 (found in the Truman Library), which reads: "This Government has been informed that a Jewish state has been proclaimed in Palestine, and recognition has been requested by the provisional government thereof. The United States recognizes the provisional government as the de facto authority of the new State of Israel."
What the Truman letter and the State department letter show is that the United States' recognition of the State of Israel was unqualified and immediate, not "de facto". The "de facto" recognition was extended to the Provisional Government of Israel, which became "de jure" on January 31, 1949 after Israel held its first elections. A clear distinction is made between recognition of a State and recognition of its government.
The United States was thus, without question, the first country to officially ("de jure") recognize the STATE of Israel, not the Soviet Union.
Jacob D (talk) 18:05, 20 March 2018 (UTC)Jacob D[reply]
@Jacob D:, I did read it, which is why I referred directly to it in my response. Self-quoting your request with bolding doesn't change anything. You in fact highlighted the essential difference both times, apparently without realizing it, that the first entity granted recognition by the United States was not of the State of Israel, but of the Provisional Government. The unqualified de jure recognition is explicitly noted by your own sources as being of the State of Israel. How you can acknowledge all this and yet reach the same conclusion is not apparent to me. None of this, however, changes the fact that this article is under the purview of the Arbitration Committee decision on Palestine-Israel articles and you are required to seek consensus for such changes. This is ineligible for "correction" as an edit request. I hope this helps explain the situation. Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 18:45, 20 March 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@Eggishorn:Where do you see recognition of one without the other? The recognition of BOTH government and State is made in the Truman letter of May 14, 1948 (provisional government....of the new State of Israel).
The Jessup letter to the State Department of July 14 explicitly acknowledges recognition of both, distinguishing between "de jure" recognition of the State of Israel, coupled with "de facto" recognition of the Provisional Government.
Truman himself explicitly acknowledged on 24 October, 1948 that the United States HAD recognized the State of Israel on May 14: "On May 14, 1948, this country recognized the existence of the independent State of Israel. I was informed by the Honorable Eliahu Epstein that a Provisional Government had been established in Israel. This country recognized the Provisional Government as the de facto authority of the new State of Israel."http://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/ws/?pid=13065
That refutes your statement above "that the first entity granted recognition by the United States was not of the State of Israel, but of the Provisional Government".
It also refutes the statement you cited in green above, "The Soviet Union was the first country to recognise Israel de jure on 17 May 1948... The United States extended de jure recognition after the first Israeli election, on 31 January 1949". On 31 Jan 1949, the US granted recognition to the Israeli GOVERNMENT as "de-jure" authority of the State that it had previously recognized....just as Truman had indicated it would do in his 24 October 1948 statement: "When a permanent government is elected in Israel it will promptly be given de jure recognition."
Jacob D (talk) 19:33, 20 March 2018 (UTC)Jacob D[reply]
@Eggishorn:The immediate recognition by the United States of the State of Israel is also made clear in the correspondence between President Truman and James Roosevelt in the following days.
https://www.trumanlibrary.org/whistlestop/study_collections/israel/large/documents/index.php?documentid=21&pagenumber=2
James Roosevelt to Harry S. Truman, May 15, 1948: "Please accept my gratitude and congratulations for your courage in granting this government's recognition to the new State of Israel"
https://www.trumanlibrary.org/whistlestop/study_collections/israel/large/documents/index.php?documentid=21&pagenumber=1
Harry S. Truman to James Roosevelt, May 18, 1948:
"It was good of you to send me this expression of your approval".
Jacob D (talk) 20:23, 20 March 2018 (UTC)Jacob D[reply]
@Eggishorn:Then there is Truman's address in Madison Square Garden on 28 October 1948.
https://www.trumanlibrary.org/publicpapers/index.php?pid=2013
"The United States was the first to give full and complete recognition to the new State of Israel in April 1948, and recognition to its provisional government."
The "April 1948" is of course, an error, that should read "May".
But I think you get the point.
Jacob D (talk) 20:41, 20 March 2018 (UTC)Jacob D[reply]

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 3 March 2024[edit]

In the last paragraph of the section titled "Effects of the Cold War", please change "In March 1985 Mikhail Gorbachev became the Secretary General of the CPSU and in April he declared perestroika." to "In March 1985, Mikhail Gorbachev became the Secretary General of the CPSU; in April, he declared perestroika." or to something else that is similar.

Adding a comma after "March 1985" would improve the sentence's grammar, so I strongly recommend making that change exactly as I have written it. It may also help to separate the "in April he declared perestroika" from the rest of the sentence using either a comma, a semicolon, or a period instead of the word "and" as it is an independent clause and then also add a comma in between "in April" and "he declared". Anonymous Libertarian (talk) 21:00, 3 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

 Done ARandomName123 (talk)Ping me! 01:13, 4 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]
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