Talk:SpaceX Starship (spacecraft)/Archives/ 1

Use of Excerpts

@Redacted II I've used excerpts when appropriate so that edits will propagate to and from the relevant pages.

For example if an edit is made to the table of test flights on the relative article they will automatically show up here requiring less work from editors. {{u|Gtoffoletto}}  ^talk 16:26, 29 April 2023 (UTC)

The excerpt you added was missing the "scrapped" label Redacted II (talk) 16:39, 29 April 2023 (UTC)

If the table is an excerpt to change it you need to edit the article it is transposed from. Do not copy the whole table otherwise the error will remain on the original page. To edit the table go to: SpaceX Starship development#Second stage prototypes and edit it there. It will show up here automatically. {{u|Gtoffoletto}}  ^talk 17:43, 29 April 2023 (UTC)

Oh I see the problem now.... apparently the "scrubbed" label is being lost in the excerpt....weird... I'll ask for tech help {{u|Gtoffoletto}}  ^talk 17:47, 29 April 2023 (UTC)

Until you figure that out, I'll revert the excerpt back to the table I made. Redacted II (talk) 21:06, 29 April 2023 (UTC)

Work is in progress here Wikipedia:Village pump (technical)#Help/Problem with excerpt?. Please don't edit it while the techies figure it out :) {{u|Gtoffoletto}}  ^talk 10:29, 30 April 2023 (UTC)

So, you want me to revert back to the faulty excerpt? I can do that. Redacted II (talk) 10:55, 30 April 2023 (UTC)

Duplicate article

How is this not a duplicate of SpaceX Starship? —Alalch E. 02:09, 30 April 2023 (UTC)

This is about the upper stage. (this) "Starship" and SpaceX Super Heavy form (that) SpaceX Starship, as the two main components. So you can consider this article to be a subtopic. -- 64.229.90.172 (talk) 04:00, 30 April 2023 (UTC)

The naming is definitely confusing... but it's not our fault! The intro maybe could be more clear? {{u|Gtoffoletto}}  ^talk 10:31, 30 April 2023 (UTC)

Yes, very confusing. I'd call Starship an upper stage, personally. Geoffrey.landis (talk) 18:25, 8 September 2023 (UTC)

Why forking?

I don't see the point of forking the article out like this, when all of these information is essentially duplicated from SpaceX Starship. CactiStaccingCrane (talk) 11:52, 1 May 2023 (UTC)

The SpaceX Starship upper stage is a lot more notable than some other stages that have their own articles (like the Delta IV second stage, or atlas V first stage). Therefore, both Starship and Superheavy should (and now have) dedicated articles. Redacted II (talk) 12:05, 1 May 2023 (UTC)

For reference we use the following articles for Apollo: Apollo Program = Apollo (spacecraft) + Saturn (rocket family) (and various subpages) {{u|Gtoffoletto}}  ^talk 12:09, 1 May 2023 (UTC)

Mission Profile

In the SpaceX Super Heavy page, a section is dedicated to the mission profile of the vehicle. Should we include a similar section in this article? Redacted II (talk) 13:39, 30 April 2023 (UTC)

There's no single mission profile. Starship HLS is different from Starship Tanker, from Starship Cargo, from Starship orbital tank farm, from Starship Passenger (point-to-point spaceliner), from Starship pez dispenser, from Starship Mars Colonial Transporter, from Starship HLS, from Starship Crew-- 64.229.90.172 (talk) 05:47, 1 May 2023 (UTC)

We can at least include launch profile, as well as landing profile. Redacted II (talk) 12:06, 1 May 2023 (UTC)

Which are different depending on which Starship you are looking at. The launch profile for HLS on the Moon or MCT on Mars is very different from being launched atop Super Heavy. Landing profiles are also very different for landing on the Moon or Mars; and the orbiting fuel depot will never land; the pez dispenser versions are to be expendeable, so will burn up instead of landing -- 64.229.90.172 (talk) 14:02, 1 May 2023 (UTC)

I don't think launch profiles are different between different types? Maybe we can include that? Redacted II (talk) 14:21, 1 May 2023 (UTC)

When you launch off the Moon or you launch of Mars, that is different from launching atop Super Heavy, since you do not use Super Heavy on the Moon or Mars -- 64.229.90.172 (talk) 14:49, 1 May 2023 (UTC)

I'm referring to launch from earth, not launch from mars/moon/anywhere else Redacted II (talk) 16:27, 1 May 2023 (UTC)

Wiki Education assignment: Information Literacy and Scholarly Discourse-2002

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 23 January 2023 and 18 May 2023. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Duranandrew6264 (article contribs).

— Assignment last updated by Duranandrew6264 (talk) 01:31, 4 May 2023 (UTC)

Test Tank Info

Currently, the info on the various test tanks is located at the Super Heavy article. As the majority of the test tanks were related to the second stage, I believe it should be moved either to here or in the SpaceX Starship article. Redacted II (talk) 21:05, 9 May 2023 (UTC)

Older ship

The picture shows Ship 20, even though we have more moder ones like 24. Could someone change it? The same has been done on the full rocket site. Fehér Zsigmond (talk) 10:17, 17 May 2023 (UTC)

If a clear picture can be found, it should be added.

But it would have to follow copyright rules, and be from a legitimate source. Redacted II (talk) 16:32, 18 May 2023 (UTC)

"Ship 28+" is not an acceptably styled heading

@Redacted II and Cocobb8: It's just unprofessional writing. We shouldn't use symbols like that in headings. Headings are subject to regular naming conventions, and this doesn't look like a conventional title/heading at all. I've changed it to "Ship 28 and subsequent". Do you think there's something wrong with that alternative?—Alalch E. 14:20, 12 June 2023 (UTC)

Nope. While I don't see the problem with the +, you are a much more experienced editor than I am, so I'll defer to your judgement.

(Thanks for doing the same on Super Heavy) Redacted II (talk) 16:25, 12 June 2023 (UTC)

Alright, if both articles are consistent with each other, I'm ok with it. Cocobb8 (💬 talk to me! • ✏️ my contributions) 16:28, 12 June 2023 (UTC)

remove column from table?

I removed the "construction site" column from the "test tank" table, and Redacted II reverted my removal without comment. All entries in the column are identical, so I feel it adds no value, while making the table harder to read on narrow displays. It's also unlikely that test tanks will ever be built anywhere other the Boca Chica any time in the foreseeable future, as test tanks are needed only at the development site and BC will likely remain the only development site. If this changes, we can put the column back in. Comments? -Arch dude (talk) 17:26, 3 August 2023 (UTC)

Sorry about not leaving a comment.

Removing an entire column is the kind of edit that should be at least discussed before being implemented. Furthermore, the table should be consistent with it's semi-twin at SpaceX Super Heavy.

While no test tanks have been constructed outside of Boca Chica, that could happen in the future. Also, starship prototypes have been built outside of Boca Chica, so that should be taken into account as well. Redacted II (talk) 17:48, 3 August 2023 (UTC)

Anything "could happen". To account for all those things, we would need to add an infinite number of columns to all tables on Wikipedia. the site at Cocoa has been decommissioned, and at this point the probability of Starship tank development happening anywhere other than BC is near zero. If it does happen we can then add another column or a separate table if appropriate. From a format perspective, wide table are a nuisance, especially on narrow displays, including smartphones. From a reader comprehension perspective, an unneeded column detracts from the information being presented. -Arch dude (talk) 16:35, 4 August 2023 (UTC)

You make some (very) good points.

Still, to be 100% honest, I think it looks better with the "Construction site" column. Redacted II (talk) 20:00, 4 August 2023 (UTC)

Copied and pasted from SpaceX Starship and forgot to attribute in edit summary

What do I do now? CoastRedwood (talk) 10:25, 26 August 2023 (UTC)

Suggest subsection move

There's a lot of material in this article that's very peripheral or not really important to Starship. To start with, the exhaustive list of all the StarHopper and prototype flights just distracts from the focus. I suggest that we move that list to its own article and just put in a link.

And, I don't think tank pressure testing is important enough to have an entire section of an enclopedia article devoted to it. I suggest deleting this to keep the article focused. Geoffrey.landis (talk) 18:31, 8 September 2023 (UTC)

Orphaned references in SpaceX Starship (spacecraft)

I check pages listed in Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of SpaceX Starship (spacecraft)'s orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.

Reference named "nsf20140307":

• From Interplanetary spaceflight: Belluscio, Alejandro G. (2014-03-07). "SpaceX advances drive for Mars rocket via Raptor power". NASAspaceflight.com. Retrieved 2014-03-07.
• From SpaceX Starship: Belluscio, Alejandro G. (7 March 2014). "SpaceX advances drive for Mars rocket via Raptor power". NASASpaceFlight.com. Archived from the original on 11 September 2015. Retrieved 25 September 2016.

I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. Feel free to remove this comment after fixing the refs. AnomieBOT⚡ 13:06, 2 October 2023 (UTC)

Sanchez Site vs Rocket Garden vs Engine Installation Stand

There's been quite some confusion for the naming of ships status: should they be in the sanchez site when they are on the engine installation stand? Or should they be denoted as in the rocket garden when they are awaiting their turn for engine installation?

Here's what I suggest:

• When ships are having their engines installed, say On engine installation stand. It's also been suggested to say At the Sanchez Site, but I think that we should make it more accurate. We could also say On engine installation stand at the Sanchez Site.
• When ships/boosters are in the rocket garden, say At the rocket garden and awaiting engine installation if applicable.

Any thoughts? Cocobb8 (💬 talk • ✏️ contribs) 16:05, 15 October 2023 (UTC)

I like your suggestion. It keeps the separation between the Engine Installation Stand as well as clarifies the status further. Redacted II (talk) 16:11, 15 October 2023 (UTC)

Thanks @Redacted II. Do you think that we should also precise that the engine installation stand is located in the Sanchez Site, or just say on the engine installation stand? Cocobb8 (💬 talk • ✏️ contribs) 16:24, 15 October 2023 (UTC)

I already changed it to "on engine installation stand at Sanchez Site" Redacted II (talk) 19:46, 15 October 2023 (UTC)

Great! Cocobb8 (💬 talk • ✏️ contribs) 19:55, 15 October 2023 (UTC)

Could someone explain - in the article - what this rocket garden is?? 47.64.205.237 (talk) 09:01, 15 December 2023 (UTC)

That descript would go in the Starbase article Redacted II (talk) 12:11, 15 December 2023 (UTC)

Fine, then put it there and link it. Just to talk here of some rocket garden without any explanation is not helpful at all. 47.64.205.237 (talk) 19:01, 15 December 2023 (UTC)

why?

It's no more descriptive than Mega Bay 1 or High Bay. Redacted II (talk) 20:31, 15 December 2023 (UTC)

As a related issue, the article now repeatedly refers to a "rocket garden" without explanation. Should a casual reader just know what that means or where it is. Shouldn't it say at least once "rocket garden at Sanchez site" ? Gjxj (talk) 15:59, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

If you want, you can go fix that yourself Cocobb8 (💬 talk • ✏️ contribs) 16:08, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

Dry mass

Redacted II, you reverted the 100 t dry mass supported by two sources (a quote from Elon Musk and data from Robert Zubrin). Do you have a reliable source to support the 120 t dry mass? The Sesnic source currently cited doesn't support 120 t. Redraiderengineer (talk) 20:22, 9 December 2023 (UTC)

During the April 2022 presentation, Musk stated that the 85 ton number (which was shown in the presentation) was a typo, and the actual mass was 120 tons.

While Musk is not the most reliable source (it honestly feels like a stretch to give him any reliability at all), Zubrin isn't the most reliable source either.

I'll have to find the presentation. Redacted II (talk) 20:51, 9 December 2023 (UTC)

I've went through the presentation, and I can't find any mention of the ships dry mass. (EDIT: I found it in the 2019 presentation)

Though I was able to find this: which claims 125 tons, but it is an estimate in a study, and not a confirmed number. Redacted II (talk) 21:35, 9 December 2023 (UTC)

The statement from Musk supporting ~100 t is from 2021 (Sesnic), and the Zurbrin source is a book written this year. A reliable primary and secondary source supports the 100 t dry mass, and per the NOR policy, articles should generally rely on secondary sources.

Unless you have a different reliable source, we should proceed with 100 t on the concept of "verifiability, not truth" since we don't know the actual dry mass. I'm not stuck on this number, so if there's a new reliable source in the future, we can revisit this. Does that work with you? Redraiderengineer (talk) 23:36, 9 December 2023 (UTC)

Since the more recent sources support 100 tons (though I really dislike using Zubrin as a source), I'll self revert. Redacted II (talk) 23:40, 9 December 2023 (UTC)

S20

We should get a more recent version of starship to serve as the main image (S28 or S29 would be best), as S20 has several major differences when compared to current prototypes. Redacted II (talk) 18:39, 18 December 2023 (UTC)

Original research and 'box scoring' each development test flight

The current state of the article info box seems to be to keep "box scores" on "Failed" or "Lost" Starships. This seems like a lot of original research and is WP:UNDUE in any case.

While such designations are likely appropriate for operational flights with a defined payload objective by any launch vehicle operator, it seems grossly premature to take every flight test of a development vehicle and call out scores of "success" or "failed". SpaceX clearly considers each flight a success in that each of the three so far advanced the design testing phase beyond what could be tested in various subsystem tests on the ground. This is what they've said, and what they've specified as test objectives before each test. And we have sources that support what SpaceX said before each flight test, and what they said afterwards: the goal of test flights is to advance the testing beyond what was previously tested.

Here is what the article box score says, as of 17 March 2024:

Launched : 3
Retired : 3
Failed : 1 (IFT-2)
Lost : 2 (IFT-1, IFT-3)

but the sources do not uniformly support this take. Moreover, before we put anything in an info box, we should have it fully explicated and sourced in the article body. Best we could do here is say that different sources call the outcomes differently. And headline-oriented advertising-click-based media often report or slant to get clicks. What do other editors think on this? N2e (talk) 22:13, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

There is already a consensus that counts the test vehicles as operational vehicles.

At least 2/3rds of editors back this, so there isn't any possibility of overturning it. Redacted II (talk) 23:20, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

Edit: my response did not age well.

So, I'm not sure how integrating the results of the linked discussion with this article will work, if it will work at all. Redacted II (talk) 12:29, 21 April 2024 (UTC)