Talk:St Merryn

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Historic buildings: Spindrift and Tolgus[edit]

I'm unable to find sources for this information. 

===Historic buildings===

The cottage Spindrift,{{#tag:ref|[[Spindrift]] refers to sea spray whipped off the crest of waves by a force 8 wind, and forms part of the formal definition of a Beaufort Scale Force 8.|group=nb}} now a dwelling, has been a cart parts store, office and small smithy, haberdasher's shop and a shop with dwelling rooms. It was restored from 2007 to 2009 using reclaimed materials and traditional techniques. [[Spindrift]] cottage contains three large stone fireplaces in a row in one {{convert|20|ft|m}} wall for cooking, heating and metal-working.{{#tag:ref|One fireplace was used for cooking, with offset run to a 'copper' - an old water heater. The next was a traditional fireplace for heating. The last was used as a metal-working furnace and was large enough for cartband work.|group=nb}} There are some unique architectural features of Spindrift which appear unique to St Merryn, and some can also be seen in the public house The Farmers Arms and on the Old Stone Barn opposite.[citation needed]

Tolgus, the restaurant building next to Spindrift, is a corruption of the Cornish plural word for 'taxis'. This raises speculation locally that St Merryn was once a coaching stop, with horse trough, cart repair, horse stabling, and blacksmithing. For instance between Spindrift and Tolgus is a large slate slab with grooves into the top that once supported a horse trough, and below it is a well.[citation needed]

Does anyone know where a source might be found?--06:53, 18 September 2012 (UTC)

Other parts I am having trouble finding sources[edit]

Other parts I am having trouble finding appropriate sources:

  • Geology - The land under St Merryn is a shallow clay and shale 'dish' which accounts for the high water table despite the elevated position of St Merryn village, hence the success of local farming.[citation needed]
User:Mikenorton might be able to help you here.
Ok, thanks, I'll follow-up with him. (CH)
  • The Parish of 'Sancta Marina' was run from a monastery in Bodmin.[citation needed]
This sounds dubious: there was a monastery in Bodmin before the Reformation but the Cornish Church Guide (1925) Truro: Blackford; p. 158-59 says nothing about it under St Merryn. "D. St Marina and (later) St. Thomas Martyr. This parish lay within the episcopal manor and peculiar of Pawton and in 1338 the Bishop finally gave it to the Dean and Chapter of Exeter for the maintenance of services on St. Thomas' Day." There is a modern Roman Catholic abbey in Bodmin (see website of the Diocese of Plymouth).
Ok. I think I'm getting from this that there are no ties to St Merryn. (CH)
  • When sainthood was ratified by Rome in 1338, a second dedication was made to St Thomas Becket but it did not replace the St Merryn dedication.[citation needed]
  • From 1876 onwards the Church of St Merryn has been in the Diocese of Truro in the Pydar deanery. There is a section in the churchyard dedicated to military graves, and especially naval, with graves of men from several countries including Canada and the United States. There are many from HMS Vulture, a land based training station near St Mawgan.[citation needed]
1876 is when the Diocese of Truro was taken from the Diocese of Exeter: there will be details of St Merryn on the diocesan website. The deanery of Pydar originated in Anglo-Saxon times.
Ok, I'll check it out. (CH)
  • St Merryn Church stands near the centre of St Merryn village. The church is open for visitors during the day in the summer months. Sunday services are held at 11 am on the first four Sundays of each month, with an additional Matins at 8 am in the summer months.[citation needed]
There may be details on the "achurchnearyou" website but service times are not regarded as encyclopaedic as they are likely to change occasionally.
Ok, makes sense. I'll see if there's other info there that might be useful for this article. (CH)
  • The Church Fete and Charity Fetes always include a traditional game of 'Kayles' on the skittle alley in the Green field.[citation needed]
  • The Farmers Arms Inn, which did not gain its first 'official' licence to sell alcohol until 1872, has been a fixture within St Merryn for some time based upon its architecture. The original part of The Farmers Arms Inn has a stone and lime fireplace. The unusual lintel with a shallow arch, made of metal strips, each turned up or down at the ends was used to stop 'spread' and for stability. (An almost identical lintel and fireplace construction was uncovered inside Spindrift Cottage in 2007. These lintels appear to be constructed from heated and beaten 'cartwheel bands' or 'iron tyres', used on horse drawn vehicles of the past.) It brewed its own beer in the past. The bar room has a stone well, due to the local area's high water table.[citation needed]

Saint Merryn[edit]

  • {{#tag:ref|The 7th century Saint Merryn (or Meran, or Marina) from [[Bithynia]] is surrounded by many legends. Legends of Saint Merryn, include possible links to [[Merijn]], or [[Merlin]], see [[King Arthur]]. Léon Clugnet published versions of her legends in nine languages in 1905. Churches in Wales and Brittany are also named after the saint.{{citation needed|date=September 2012}}|group=nb}}--CaroleHenson (talk) 07:23, 18 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Doble, Gilbert H. (1965) The Saints of Cornwall; part 4: Saints of the Newquay, Padstow and Bodmin District. Truro: Dean and Chapter; pp. 53-54: Saint Merryn (published in 1930 as part of Saint Constantine and Saint Merryn (Cornish Saints Series, no. 26). Doble mentions a former church of St Marina on the Île de la Cité in Paris, Lanmerin (Brittany) where the saint is male, and he derives Plomelin (Brittany), Bodferin (Wales) and Llanferin (Gwent) from a Celtic saint Merin. His view is that Marina of Bithynia has replaced the earlier Celtic saint during the Middle Ages. (He says nothing about the Arthurian aspect.)--Felix Folio Secundus (talk) 14:01, 18 September 2012 (UTC)  Done[reply]
Alban Butler Lives of the Saints: St. Marina V. In The Cornish Saints by Peter Berresford Ellis (p. 20) the author also suggests the replacement of the Celtic saint by St Marina; Marina's feastday is 12 February but the feastday at St Merryn is 7 July.--Felix Folio Secundus (talk) 15:15, 18 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
 Done - Ellis the different feast day change could related to Thomas Beckett - I read somewhere that his feast day was the same as the St Merryn's church. I'm not sure it was from a reliable source, but I'll look that up after I finish up with the rest here.
 Done - Added reference from Butler where I could see the info about the feast day, etc.
Ok, thanks!--CaroleHenson (talk) 23:27, 18 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
This gets confusing because - the information you provided kind of synchs up - except it's from a Marina of the next century. It makes sense, though, that she made her way by dressing up as a monk - since Merryn of 650 is portrayed as a monk.
There's also a Catholic saint St. Merryn - although with different alternate spellings of Modwenna and Moninne. Her feast day is July 6. If the 650 date is right for Merryn that might fit with "Modwenna (St. Hilda's successor as Abbess of Whitby, who died about 695)" mentioned on the St Merryn page.--CaroleHenson (talk) 00:59, 19 September 2012 (UTC) Assume skip[reply]
And, to make it more interesting - here Merryn is a male again: St. Merryn (Born c.AD 550) (Latin: Merrinus; English: Merin) - a hermit (like the Catholic female St Merryn) - from Bodfelin. This one seems the most likely since there's specific mention of him living "at St. Merryn near Padstow." Skip (per Dobles) and unreliable source
So, was Merryn a man, a woman who presented herself as a man, or a woman?
From what century?
Very interesting!--CaroleHenson (talk) 01:08, 19 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Saint Marina of Bithynia has an article Marina the Monk (the corresponding Italian Wikipedia article is much better). She will have been commemorated in the Roman liturgical calendar so the medieval clergy of Cornwall would have regarded her as the patron saint of St Merryn where the people traditionally venerated St Merin the Welshman. He may have come to Cornwall or one of his followers may have dedicated St Merryn's first church to him but nothing is recorded about that. The best source would be either of these two books: (a) Nicholas Orme's book, The Saints of Cornwall (2000).[1][2] Done with 1965 edition, I'm not able to see the page about Marina (b) Orme, Nicholas (1996) English Church Dedications: With a Survey of Cornwall and Devon, University of Exeter Press ISBN 0-85989-516-5.  Done I do have Doble's book and would regard him as a good source but I have not seen Orme's books. http://www.earlybritishkingdoms.com/bios/merryn.html: this site is not regarded as a reliable source because it provides no information about the sources used in compiling it; it has been cited in the past but another editor has been deleting those citations. I hope this has not got more confusing.--Felix Folio Secundus (talk) 07:33, 19 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, having a hard time sleeping tonight... so here I am, In the Orme book the page about Marina wasn't part of my preview (I guess it's different sometimes in UK/US), but Orme wrote another book about English Church dedications - and there the church was first called Vicariam Sancte Marine. Then, after different variations and spellings of Marine, in 1477 the church was called Seynt Meryn. [3]  Done

There's another book, though, The lives of saints (1898), that says that there was a monk named Maruanus who had a church named after him St Merryn or Merran, near Padstow.[4] And, a similar story told in the Studies in church dedications - with a bit more info that he travelled Cornwall with S. Breaca.[5]  Done - as 19th c. examples, followed by Doble comments

It is seeming like this is becoming something that could be pieced together - just to say that there are two possibilities: the church was either named after the monk Maruanus - or Saint Marina (and that Marina is the latin version of Morwen or Merryn). (And I guess drop the one about the Merryn of the Abbey - unless I can find a reliable site.) It strikes me that it's quite something that there are two stories related to two different Merryns/Marinas that involve a woman dressing as a man to fulfill their desired religious role.

For some silly reason this is making me tired again...--CaroleHenson (talk) 10:16, 19 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

It will probably be easier to base what is said about the saint on what was written by G. H. Doble and Nicholas Orme. The two authors from the 1890s will not have been aware of any later research on the saint. Doble says this: "As the name Merin is found in Wales and Brittany, I am unable to agree with [Charles G.] Henderson's suggestion that S. Merryn may be the Marwenna found in William of Worcester's list of the Children of Brychan ...". (Charles G. Henderson's suggestion could be in Saint Nectan, S. Keyne and the Children of Brychan in Cornwall 1930).  Done"Vicariam Sancte Marine": this would be Vicariam Sanctae Marinae in classical Latin so Marina is the name (feminine); for a male saint it would be Vicariam Sancti Marini. By 1477 it is recorded in English rather than in Latin. It is a knotty problem; the time difference between England and Colorado does not help.--Felix Folio Secundus (talk) 11:09, 19 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Ok, thanks! Will do. And thanks for capturing the bit from Doble - I'm not sure if I missed it or couldn't preview the book.--CaroleHenson (talk) 13:44, 19 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Comments and  Dones inserted above in bold.--CaroleHenson (talk) 15:52, 19 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Ok, I think I've got everything I can here. So that I can update the Doble Saints of Cornwall from 1965 to 2000 Oxford University Press edition, do you mind taking a look at the two #9 citations and see if they match up with what's in the 2000 edition + provide a page number(s)?
In the meantime I'll see if I can find the part about the feast day and Beckett.--CaroleHenson (talk) 16:14, 19 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
This is probably getting into original research territory (until there's a specific connection made between this saint and the St Merryn church - but there's a saint Marinus ("Martyr with Sedopha and Theodotus. They suffered at Tomi, on the Black Sea, in an uncertain year.") who's feast day is July 5 - same as SM Church. [6] Possibly a footnote?
Still searching for more on the feast day connection....--CaroleHenson (talk) 16:48, 19 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
This bit "Instead, the Saint Nectan, S. Keyne and the Children of Brychan in Cornwall of 1930 could hold the Merryn who visited this town.[7]" I have moved here as it is a little clearer without it. I assume neither of us has been able to see this book; it is likely to contain Henderson's statement about Marwenna but he could have published it somewhere else. We can just say that Doble does not agree with Henderson on this. "Vicariam" I have changed to "Vicaria" as the nominative form; the original document would have said something like "instituit ad Vicariam Sancte Marine" meaning a priest was being given the duties of vicar of that parish. St Marinus the martyr (July 5) is probably best left out. The date for St Merryn's feast is July 7 (the old feast of St Thomas Becket which is on the date his relics were placed in his new shrine in 1220; his feast is now on 29 December the date of his death in 1170).--Felix Folio Secundus (talk) 07:28, 20 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Ok, that all sounds good. Thanks!--CaroleHenson (talk) 12:28, 20 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  1. ^ Orme, Nicholas (2000). The Saints of Cornwall. Oxford University Press. ISBN 0-19-820765-4. Full text available at GoogleBooks (rather illegibly).
  2. ^ French, Katherine. "Review of Orme's The Saints of Cornwall". Retrieved 2009-09-15.
  3. ^ Nicholas Orme. English Church Dedications. University of Exeter Press; 1 January 1996 [cited 19 September 2012]. ISBN 978-0-85989-516-3. p. 103–.
  4. ^ Sabine Baring-Gould. The lives of the saints. J.C. Nimmo; 1898 [cited 19 September 2012]. p. 658–.
  5. ^ Frances Egerton Arnold-Forster. Studies in church dedications: or, England's patron saints. Skeffington & son; 1899 [cited 19 September 2012]. p. 266–.
  6. ^ Matthew Bunson; Margaret Bunson; Stephen Bunson. Our Sunday Visitor's Encyclopedia of Saints. Our Sunday Visitor Publishing; 1 May 2003 [cited 19 September 2012]. ISBN 978-1-931709-75-0. p. 582–.
  7. ^ Gilbert H. Doble. Saint Nectan, S. Keyne and the Children of Brychan in Cornwall Exeter: S. Lee Limited, 1930. OCLC Number: 34090543

Regarding the Saints of Cornwall citations - no worries - let's just leave it as the 1965 source and I know the pages are right. I think I thought that you had the 2000 book. But, we're good.--CaroleHenson (talk) 15:08, 27 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

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