Talk:Tenrikyo

Translation of terms

Translation of the various terms used in Tenrikyo is quite a large stumbling block to understanding, the translation committee is considering alternatives that carry less cultural baggage. For example, the word "salvation" has a lot of Christian cultural baggage.

An English language interpretation of Tenrikyo Terms can be found at Newpath2000.org.

The translation of the terms is less an obstacle to understanding them than our understandable tendency to attach meanings to them based on our "worldly common" way of reasoning. On the contrary, it is intended that all of the terms of the teaching be understood from the point of view of the "Reason of Heaven". That is from the point of view that knows and understands that any and everything of this universe is a single being. We of course don't ordinarily see things that way and so awakening to that point of view requires the settling or replacement of our ordinary self-centered thinking with the point of view of the truth of origin. It is that point of view that remains when the self-centered imagination is settled or quieted. Check it out in your own mind and see for yourself.

To reveal that truth, the "Parent of Origin" intends to employ instruments or intermediaries to show the way to understand the Model Path that is provided so that it can be made available to all of the "children" of the world equally. That is to say that it be presented in terms that are appropriate for the time the place and the spiritual maturity of all human beings equally, without discrimination.

Juzen no shugo

Some discussion of the juzen no shugo may be worthwhile here. They should be at least listed; listed here for discussion --Medains 10:52, 12 September 2005 (UTC)

Kunitokotachi, Omotari, Tsukiyomi, Kunisazuchi, Otonobe, Taishokuten, Kashikone, Kumoyomi, Izanami, Izanagi

In taking up the task of teaching the truth of origin in ways appropriate for time place and level of spiritual maturity. That is to say, to all human beings equally, the Parent of origin has employed a creation story suitable to a particular time and place to explain how it is that we experience the world from the point of many when in reality there is really only one.

The names listed above are the ten instruments who are used in the creation of human beings and the world. In brief, the original one gathers from within itself the ten instruments and uses them according to their causal nature to create and sustain the universe. Each instrumental cause and combination of causes following perfectly from the origin to manifest every detail of the present without error.

The intention of the creation being the experience of a joyous life by savoring the appearance of diversity made possible by the combination of the instruments. Just as the universe is made of instrumental causality flowing out from the origin as the experience of the universe, the way to return to the origin is also a matter of following a path of instrumental causality back to the origin.

The teaching concerning the ten instruments and the story of creation was intended to be presented as a simple guide that anyone could have followed in a particualar time and place.

Nature of Relationship between Tenrikyo and Soka Gakkai/Nichiren Shoshu

The alleged antagonism from Tenrikyo towards Soka Gakkai and Nichiren Shoshu in the main article was disputed by one contributor. It should be noted that this is not official Tenrikyo policy, however the other two groups mentioned are often seen (rightly or wrongly) in Japanese society as being antagonistic towards all other religions, so among lay Tenrikyo followers there may have been an antagonistic counter-response at some time and place. It is worth emphasising that the perceived relationship between these two groups and any other religion would be identical to that between these two groups and Tenrikyo - there is nothing specific to Tenrikyo in this statement.

In response to the assertion that Tenrikyo is antagonistic toward any religion

The assertion that Tenrikyo is antagonistic towards Soka Gakkai or any religion for that matter is hearsay. There is nothing in scriptures to validate this train of thought. In fact, Tenrikyo acknowledges that it is but one path towards salvation. There has been no documented evidence of such behavior and even if there was such an article, the attitudes of one particular region/church do not reflect the whole. Such inflammatory and carelessly made accusations are of an ignorant and disrespectful nature. -said contributor(--Lewdev 12:53, 1 July 2006 (UTC))

In response to the counter response that Tenrikyo is not antagonistic toward any religion

A great many Tenrikyo followers make negative statements about Honmichi and other religious groups descended from Onishi Aijiro, such as Honbushin. So while the above statement is true in general, it is not true in at least one specific instance. In the Tenrikyo sacred book of the Ofudesaki, it is stated that God will save all mankind. There is no discrimination! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.8.228.154 (talk) 22:02, 5 January 2013 (UTC)

References

Response to the above

Where is this documented? This began when I asked for documentation that Tenrikyo was antagonistic towards Soka Gakkai and Nichiren Shoshu. Please do not make sweeping generalizations of what Tenrikyo followers believe. A "great many" sounds like an awful lot but it is not what the scriptures teach nor what ALL followers believe. If there were negative statments towards any religion, there would be either a good reason that conflicts with the ultimate goal of Tenrikyo, which is to attain the Joyous Life. Or this could be just a few bad apples. I have been Tenrikyo follower all my life, yet, I have never heard of such a thing. Never in a sermon would a Tenrikyo minister make negative statments toward other religions, so why put it in this encyclopedia? I have been waiting for a "great many" days for documentation or proof, but all I hear is more accusations from who could be just about anybody on the internet. --Lewdev 21:30, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Verifiability Information on Wikipedia must be reliable. Facts, viewpoints, theories, and arguments may only be included in articles if they have already been published by reliable and reputable sources. Articles should cite these sources whenever possible. Any unsourced material may be challenged and removed.

I have just realized that Honmichi and Honbushin are both branches of Tenrikyo. So obviously there would be negative statements toward a religion that follows an altered version of the teachings of another religion.

Documentation for issues surrounding other religions descended from Nakayama Miki

For more information see: http://www.honbushin.jp/ja/ http://www.kanrodai.org/ http://www.kamiichijyou.org/

For limited info specifically on Honmichi in English see: http://eos.kokugakuin.ac.jp/modules/xwords/entry.php?entryID=607

Note that followers of such groups do not consider themselves to be branches of Tenrikyo, but they consider it to be the other way around, that is that Tenrikyo as an organisation is a non-conformant branch of the tradition started by Nakayama Miki. An example of this non-conformance is the banning by Tenrikyo as an organisation of the Ogi-no-Ukagai, an method of divination taught by Miki to her early followers. This method is still practiced in some of these groups. Another example is the (alleged) mis-interpretation of the word Kanrodai by Tenrikyo as an organisation in order to (allegedly) illegitimately support a perceived monopoly on Miki's tradition. Another, famous, example is hereditary succession, which played a minor role when Miki was alive, but now plays a major role in how Tenrikyo operates as an organisation. On a related note there is the case of the Mishima Shrine, which was forced to relocate outside of Oyasato because it was a Shinto rather than a Tenrikyo shrine.

It is important to separate the teachings of Nakayama Miki from the POV of any particular organisation - if you do not do so NPOV cannot be claimed. Tenrikyo (the teachings of Nakayama Miki) and Tenrikyo (the organisation) are not the same thing in everyone's POV.

For official Tenrikyo organisation originated documentation of attitudes towards (alleged) splinter groups refer to The Anecdotes of Oyasama published by Tenrikyo Church Headquarters in 1976. Specifically pages 63 (Holy Fire for Invocation), and 120-121 (To the Clear Place).

Why?

First of all, the link I was given (the "limited info" one) about Honmichi specifically says that Tenrikyo was its parent sect. Secondly, I'm hearing all of these examples but the only question I had in my mind is, "why?" Why did the leaders of Tenrikyo decide not to conform with some of Oyasama's teachings? Why was a Shinto shrine forced to relocate outside of Oyasato? And what is this "method of divination"? Maybe the answers are on those other links. Well, I can't read Japanese. Please keep in mind, this is the English section of Wikipedia. Is there any other documentation or translation you can provide in English? Or a better, reliable source and documentations of such examples?

Any changes that don't conform with what Oyasama (Miki Nakayama) taught must have been done still faithful to the scriptures or with great consideration. Whatever the answer, one cannot be left with questions when provided with accusations that could have come out of nowhere or, again, from who could be anybody. --Lewdev 10:38, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

Re Why

Only a knowledgable senior Tenrikyo representative (Hombuin) could answer the "Why" questions, but they would probably not do so. Japan has a long history of religious secrecy regarding certain issues - with good reason - religious persecution was rife in the pre-modern era (see Wikipedia article on Kakure Kirishitan for example), persecution which Tenrikyo itself did not escape. Thus while Tenrikyo seniors will claim not to be secretive, in practice they will act secretively with regards to certain issues that they do not feel comfortable talking about openly. While they may be accused of Koman (a negative trait that Miki warned against) in this regard, in practice it will not change anything as this is a trait of Japanese religious culture in the broader sense, and not simply one related to Tenrikyo.

Logically, a group that followed Miki's teachings exactly would be difficult to organise, manage and control, since disciplines like Ogi-no-Ukagai purport to derive divine instruction directly from Kami (God), thus by-passing the authority of the Tenrikyo organisational establishment. In the area of differing perceptions or opinions on of the same things (or "accusations" as they are referred to in the previous post) it is noteworthy that Honmichi and Hombushin refer to Onishi Aijiro as "Kanrodai-sama", clearly a different interpretation of the word "Kanrodai" to that of Tenrikyo Hombu (see citation of Hombushin homepage above). To Tenrikyo Hombu, Honmichi's interpretation is "wrong", but it is nevertheless a fact that it exists, thus it is a legitimate subject to address on Wikipedia, especially given that this is the discussion page and not the main article.

The limited English language source on Honmichi was not authored by them and so does not reflect their self-image. English language sources are thin on the ground.

Re: Re Why

Wow... great assumptions from a stranger once again. I didn't have to ask some high placed official of Tenrikyo, I just asked a regular Tenrikyo church minister and told me that the reason why the Shinto shrine was moved was because it was in front of the East Main Entrance of the Tenrikyo shrine. btw, Oyasato is within Tenri City. They also weren't "forced" out of Oyasato, it was an agreement for which Honbu (Tenrikyo Headquarters) paid for the land and costs for rebuilding the shrine at a different location. Oooo it's so easy to leave so many details out to make like Tenrikyo is such a bad religion. I'm not saying everything is good about it and it also depends on the person but all I get for responses is hot air from some troll.

Don't assume that such information wouldn't be given out so easily just because "Japan had a long era of secracy." This could all be BS for all I know. Have you asked a knowledgable senior Tenrikyo representative yourself? Were there cases where this secracy in Tenrikyo was apparently true? Thanks for giving us useless info when you don't have any legitimate or clear points on. If you don't know anything, don't say anything. Geez... once again, I ask for documented information. Have you even TRIED to get documented articles on the above mentioned "examples"? --Lewdev 17:10, 1 September 2006 (UTC)

Re: Re: Re Why

You mixed up the point about the Mishima shrine with the issue of changed practices to which the Re: Why referred. The point about asking a high ranking official related to the decision making behind the banning of Ogi-no-Ukagai and other things such as the expulsion of Tenri Kenkyukai, not why the Mishima Shrine moved - that's obvious. The Mishima shrine was in place long before the East Main Entrance of the Tenrikyo Shrine was in place - so if it was a problem why did Tenrikyo build such a massive structure there in any case, especially if they were sensible to the feelings of people from other religions? The point on the Mishima Shrine was that they were there first - I don't accept that they were happy about the move simply because it is difficult to see why anyone would be happy about having to move because someone built a huge worship hall next door.

Are you saying that Tenrikyo followers have a friendly, happy and productive relationship with followers of Hombushin, Honmichi, Shidokai, and Kamiichijo? Are you saying that the practice of Ogi-no-Ukagai hasn't been banned within Tenrikyo? Are you saying that Tenrikyo teaches that every human being is a Kanrodai, just as Honmichi and other related religions teach? Are you saying that the Anecodotes of Oyasama references given above (which you seem to have missed as you keep asking for documentation) do not constitute documentation with a bearing on Tenrikyo's attitudes to other religions?

The words "Geez", "BS", "hot air", "Ooo" etc in Levdev's post I'd suggest do not indicate NPOV. When you are a follower of a particular religion it's difficult not to feel under attack when faith is replaced by analysis, but some other religions seem to deal with such scrutiny OK through the application of tolerance.

For the record I do not think Tenrikyo is a "bad religion" - I think Tenrikyo is a pretty good religion - for instance it has never been used to justify a war. Indeed, during WWII Tenrikyo followers were investigated by the nationalist government because they said and did "subversive things" to undermine the Japanese government. Tenrikyo also maintains a respected hospital and disaster relief corps - hardly the most evil of activities.

This is my last post here, as this discussion is ending up faith-based rather than informational, and I've got much better things to be doing than talking "hot air" about Tenrikyo online :-) In closing, it is a fact that the virtually all publications in English on Tenrikyo come from Tenrikyo, so inevitably until this situation changes it is impossible to give an unbiased account of the religion, or to cite every statement made to the standards that would be acceptable in an academic journal. In most cases the only source we have on the history of Tenrikyo is Tenrikyo itself - this is not a comparable situation with other religions which have many publications written about them that do not come from "Church Headquarters". Even those few publications that are external are based almost entirely upon sources originating from within Tenrikyo itself (cite: Religion of Divine Wisdom by Henri van Straelen).

Lewdev, you broke rule #1. Do not feed. It remains to be seen whether it is his last post. Medains 17:04, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

Re: Re: Re: Re Why

I should first apologize for forgetting about rules and not abiding by NPOV policy.

The reason why I am active in this discussion is because I want to be educated. I do not know the real relationship between Tenrikyo and those other named religions. Nor am I knowledgeable of the history of those religions. So I asked for documented answers or for something that does not make assumptions based on Japan's general history. So, No, I am NOT saying that Tenrikyo followers have a good relationship with the followers of Hombushin, Honmichi, Shidokai, and Kamiichijo. I am saying that I do not know what kind of relationship they have with those religions besides the fact that Honbushin and Honmichi follow the teachings taught by Oyasama. I have also never heard of the other religions before.

What happened in the "expulsion of Tenri Kenkyukai"? I do not know what Ogi-no-Ukagai is, nor what is or is not banned in Tenrikyo. Please educate the less-knowledgeable.

I decided to ignore the reference to the Anecdotes of Oyasama because it was merely mentioned instead of explaining what was actually in that anecdote. I do not have access to any old published texts so if you do, please quote some of it so readers maybe informed of Tenrikyo's attitudes towards other religions.

What I wanted to correct on the Mishima shrine statement was that the Tenrikyo followers did not force it out of Oyasato. Sure, the people in charge of the shrine probably did not want to move and in fact, they did not need to. Yet, happily or unhappily, they agreed to move, even with the fact that they were there first. Happy or unhappy could depend on what they were conpensated for the move, I don't know. I just wanted to be clear on that they could not have been forced into moving out. It must have been a mutual agreement unless proven otherwise.

Why did the followers build a huge worship hall at that specific spot? It was because Oyasama marked the spot to be where human beings were first created. They could not choose anywhere else for it was their belief that the specific spot was sacred.

My intentions were to get this discussion to be informational, I apologize that it apparently appeared differently.

If I have missed something, I do not have an answer for it because I lack knowledge of it. --Lewdev 12:00, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Huh? What was that rule that I broke? The one about "feeding." Are you saying that I deleted that guy's post? Just hope to clear that up.. --Lewdev 21:00, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

Some explanations:

First of all, my English is not very good, so I would like to apologize for any mistake that I can have made.

About the "Anedoctes of Oyassama":

Unlike the "Life of Oyassama" (which is a book that describes the whole life of Oyassama, focusing Her work for the salvation), the "Anedoctes of Oyassama" is a collection of short stories that shows us small episodes, some written by the people who had met with Oyassama, and others by their descendants. These episodes tells a little about Her daily life, some of Her lectures and specially how some people became Her followers. There are several episodes concerning famous followers like: Unosuke Tosa (who formed the Muya Daikyokai), Narazo Hirano (who formed the Koriyama Daikyokai) and many others that are cited in many episodes but I don´t know the name of the Daikyokai they formed. One of them is Genjiro Fukaya (who will be cited later).

About Documentation towards "splinter groups" and Shidokai:

While Oyassama was alive, there was no Tenrikyo churches like today, and the monthly ceremony was perfomed only in Oyassama´s Residence (every 26th day). Instead of churches, the followers organized themselves in fraternities (or brotherhoods) according the village (or region) they lived.

Shidokai is not a "splinter group" from Tenrikyo. Shidokai was the name of one of these fraternities. The episode 141 (The sprout is cut from the node - This is a personal translation to English, problably it has a different name) in "Anedoctes of Oyassama" tells how Shidokai was formed: Genjiro Fukaya who was affiliated in Meissei Fraternity, went to Jiba with Zensuke Uno to ask Oyassama´s permission to create a new fraternity. The episode contains the words of Fukaya and Oyassama, how Fukaya and Uno swore that they would follow God whatever it would happen and how Oyassama allowed them to form the Shidokai Fraternity. Besides that episode, the episodes 142 (The narrow is promising), 143 (Love the sons) and 148 (To the Clear Path) makes references to Genjiro Fukaya.

The episode 148 (To the Clear Path) was mentioned here as a documentation of attitudes towards "splinter groups". But this episode doesn´t make any reference to any "splinter group", the episode tells about the Meissei Freternity which was losing followers who began to affiliate to Shidokai. Because of that, the Meissei Fraternity sended someone to try to persuade Genjiro Fukaya to go back to the Meissei Fraternity, thinking that doing so, many others would follow Fukaya. The person who would go to meet Fukaya became sick and died. Because of that, a Meissei member named Fujita went to Jiba to ask Oyassama who answered that God has taken him because he tried to bring back to the dirty water the one who was taken away to a clear path.

Both fraternities cited in this episode: Meissei and Shidokai were not "splinter groups". In that year (1884) the Meissei Fraternity submitted a document to the authorities asking authorization to form an association of Studies of Practical Ethics. They did that to reduce the opressions, in an attempt to "hide" the teachings of a new religion into a study of practical ethics (More informations can be found in the book "Life of Oyassama - Chapter IX"). Other episode mentioned was the episode 73 (Holy Fire for Invocation). But, again, this episode doesn´t make any reference to any "splinter group", the episode describes the reaction of Oyassama because of the inauguration of the Fraternity Tenrin-ô-kosha in Septermber, 22th (1880) where a Holy Fire for Invocation (a Buddhist ritual) was lighted in the front of the gate of the Residence. That ritual was performed because the Fraternity Tenrin-ô-kosha was officialized under the name of the buddhist Temple Jifuku. About this, Oyassama warned: "Don´t do that. God-the-Parent will leave."

The person who asked the permission to create the fraternity was Oyassama´s eldest son Shuji, who was worried with the persecutions.

About Ogi-no-Ukagai:

There were several kinds of Concessions like: the Ogi-no-Sazuke (consisted in consulting God´s intentions through the movements of the fan), Gohei-no-Sazuke (same as Ogi, but used a gohei, a piece of paper cut in zigzag), Koe-Marukiti-no-Sazuke or simply Koe-no-Sazuke (a kind of fertilizer), Iki-no-Sazuke (consisted in the healing of the illness through the blowing), Mizu-no-Sazuke (consisted in drinking the water three times before giving it to a sick person), Kanrodai-no-Sazuke (consisted in healing illness through the entonation of the second and third part of the Mikagura-uta) and Ashiki-Harai-no-Sazuke or Teodori-no-Sazuke (the Concession that is conceded to Yobokus today for healing the illness through the entonation of the Ashiki-harai and movement of the hands).

But all these concessions were not teachings, that someone could learn and after teach to others. All the concessions were conceded personally by Oyassama to her dedicated followers. Even today, to receive the Teodori-no-Sazuke (or simply Sazuke) a person must go to Jiba and listen a lecture nine times (these lectures are known as Besseki) and also make a vow in order to receive the Concession. This is conceded directly by the Shimbashira in Oyassama´s sanctuary. Tenrikyo didn´t ban the Ogi-no-Sazuke, neither the others Concessions. What happened is that since Oyassama occulted Herself, they were never conceded again. The Honseki (Izo Iburi), who held a revelatory leadership position, conceded only the Teodori-no-Sazuke to new followers after they listened to the lectures of Besseki (and this model remains until today, but instead of the Honseki is the Shimbashira who concedes the Sazuke).

About Tenri Kenkyukai and World War II affairs:

Tenri Kenkyukai was the name Honmichi was known before 1936. In that year, they adopted the name Tenri Honmichi. And in 1950, just Honmichi.

During the World War II the circulation of the Ofudesaki was totally fobidden, all copies of the Osashizu were recalled by the Headquarters, and the creation myths, the Doroumi koki , were suppressed. I don´t have any information about any "subversive things" that Tenrikyo did against the Japanese government during that period. What I know is the Honmichi (in that period known as Tenri Honmichi) Affairs of 1928 and 1938. Maybe because of the similarity of the names TENRI kyo and TENRI Honmichi, some confusions may be made.

Final considerations:

I hope to have helped to clear some doubts in this discussion.

I would like to ask people to take care with generalizations and exaggerations.

For example about the "great many" Tenrikyo followers that make negative statements about Honmichi. I have a lot (really a lot) of friends, Tenrikyo followers, but none of them have ever heard about Honmichi. Even me and the minister of my church we haven´t heard about Honmichi before seen this page. I don´t know if this situation is equal in the rest of the world. But, in my opinion, there is not a "big trouble" between Tenrikyo and Honmichi (or others "splinter groups"), they have different opinions and only that. As I mentioned, the "Anedoctes of Oyassama" doesn´t make any reference to any "splinter groups", nor any Tenrikyo publication. One more thing: before someone say something like "some other religions seem to deal with such scrutiny" I would like to say that I´m not a representant of Tenrikyo, my purpose was only to elucidate some points, not to be against anyone, so whatever I have written that may create disagreement with anyone is only my fault.

Strange phrase

In cleaning up some NPOV issues (eg. capitalisation of "foundress"), I came across the phrase "God explains that 9/10th of God's teachings have been taught through wisemen and prophets.", without reference to a source. Not sure on the POV of this statement - or it's relevence; so I removed it. -- Medains 13:10, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

NPOV and (lit. ...)

Shouldn't lit. translations also be completely NPOV? Saying "tanno = joyous acceptance" is the Tenrikyo POV translation of the term and does not aid understanding (tanno doesn't mean you have to "joyously" accept something, you just accept it and move on with positive spirit). -- Medains 13:10, 6 July 2006 (UTC)

Tanri(Tengri)=God in Turkish

Does anyone know any etymological relation between Turkish 'Tanri' and japanese 'Tenri'? I know there are few common names in Turkish and Japanese, but God is Kami in japanese.

I don't think that there is any relation. Tenri is the "On" reading of the characters 天 and 理, other readings of these characters in Japanese (a variety of "Kun" readings) are ame-suji, sora-osameru, ame-kotowari, sora-suji, ame-osameru and sora-kotowari (I'm not sure whether any of these make any sense to a Japanese speaker, I've just gone from the dictionary Kun readings). The meaning is "heaven-logic" or the official translation "divine reason" - which describes the teachings (kind of). -- Medains 07:17, 17 August 2006 (UTC)

Tengri is also a religious term of God that appears throughout the Altaic religious tradition, including Inner Mongolia and other parts of China - this tradition was more widespread in pre-modern times. Further the term "Tian-Li" (same characters as Tenri - 天理) is not uncommon in certain types of Chinese religious literature. Given that a) the foundress of Tenrikyo studied the Jodoshu branch of Buddhism (imported from China) and that Tenri-O-no-Mikoto is the name of God in Tenrikyo, it is not inconceivable that there is a link between the two, though proving it would be very difficult.

Worth mentioning that the same characters appear in Chinese literature then, with a citation - providing readers with that information. I'll leave the anonymous editor to add it, since I assume that they have a citable source. -- Medains 08:13, 4 September 2006 (UTC)

Starting of Tenrikyo

"It was founded in 1908 by a woman, Miki Nakayama, who underwent revelatory experiences from 1838 onwards."

Actually, Miki Nakayama occulted physically in 1887. So, I think the year 1908 refers the year when Tenrikyo affiliated to the Shinto, due to the persecussions. Another point: the word "founded". I don´t know if it´s only me, but I don´t like that word. It wasn´t a decision of Oyassama (or Miki Nakayama) to found a new religion, she became the God´s shrine to transmit the teachings of God (that is what we, Tenrikyo followers, believe). I don´t know the date that Tenrikyo, as an organization, was funded (or accepted by the government). But the teachings, that are the basis of Tenrikyo, started to be transmitted by Oyassama in 1838.

An official in the UK consistently refers to Nakayama Miki as the "foundress", and I don't find it offensive. She founded a new organization. Agreed on the year though, should be 1838. -- Medains 08:32, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

Shinto Sect

How is Tenrikyo a Shinto sect? According to the Doctrine of Tenrikyo, the religion is not an offshoot of any other. Oyasama started the 'faith', and the idea didn't start from another religion. Sr13 21:44, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

Tenrikyo was officially listed as a Shinto sect at one point (I forget exactly when) at a time when the Japanese government were only allowing the practice of "official" religions. It was later removed from the list of Shinto sects. If you've attended any Tsutome, you will note the Shinto influences on the activities - but since Oyasama taught people via what they already knew that is not surprising. -- Medains 10:15, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

As a fifth generation Tenrikyo member, I would not like to think the religion as a branch because the contexts are different between Shinto and Tenrikyo and thus a misconception. You are right about the Japanese goverment scrutinizing and classifying Tenrikyo as a Shinto sect. The Tenrikyo Headquarters in Japan (which I have recently visited) shows no resemblance of a Shinto church and based on completely different beliefs. Sr13 05:00, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

By Shinto influence, I was referring to the bowing towards the shrine and hand-clapping (though the number of claps is different, I've asked about the significance of the number used but no-one seems to know for sure) -- Medains 09:53, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Is Tenrikyo a Buddhist or Shinto tradition? This extensive and elaborate article may answer your question. In short, the answer is, no, Tenrikyo only visually resembles Shinto. --Lewdev (talk) 08:57, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

Britannica references removed -- why?

We can't just ignore the fact that Britannica considers Tenrikyo to be a Shinto sect... there must be a reason that they did that. Surely, the way to NOT go abound resolving the dilemma is by removing all references to Britannica, as some user (I won't point fingers) has done. The previous version (which I wrote) stated that Tenrikyo was considered BOTH a separate religion, and a sect of Shinto by others. Removing a reference to something like Britannica to make the article fit with your views is simply irresponsible... does anybody else have any opinion on this? --Shadowlink1014 00:04, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

Question is resolved in the above section, "Shinto Sect." --Lewdev (talk) 00:18, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

Density

Anyone know where I can find how followers of Tenrikyo are spread throughout Japan? -- Question by Rebuttal on 11th Feb 18:22.

I don't know if this information is published anywhere (and it would change over time anyway), but a polite request to Tenrikyo's center in Japan (There's a contact page at [1]) might produce results - especially if you explain why you want that information. Unsure as to how relevant this might be to the article, though it depends on what response you get. -- Medains 16:26, 14 February 2007 (UTC)

Ai Kago

An anonymous editor added Ai Kago to the list of notable followers on January 9th. I couldn't find any English sources to verify this. I'm wondering if someone who speaks Japanese could check out the validity of this anonymous claim? -- dtfinch 08:46, 3 March 2007 (UTC)

It's been corrected. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Dtfinch (talk • contribs) 21:18, 3 March 2007 (UTC).

Divine Nous = Divine Reason

See edit history of the article - I removed this link because it would lead the reader to believe that Tenrikyo was based off Greek belief, and whilst it may be similar that should be reflected in the text rather than the lead. -- Medains 21:29, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

Sounds like animism

The description in the lead makes this sound exactly like animism, but the article doesn't explain how it is different. This should be explained in the article. Badagnani (talk) 00:53, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

I do not think animism is, at all, like Tenrikyo. I assume that you somehow made the connection with Shinto in which does have an animistic belief system. Tenrikyo does have some influence in Shinto in appearance but not in many of its beliefs. See "Shinto Sect" section above. --Lewdev (talk) 00:25, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

Tenrikyo vs Christianity?

I'd like to see whether or not this is strongly linked to Christianity. The concept of God as a parent is a similar concept, but because "Christianity" refers to the ideology of a "Christian" (a term that means "little Christ" i.e. "following and closely linked to Jesus"), do they place any importance on Jesus? Or is that where the similarities end? --VTPPGLVR@aol.com —Preceding unsigned comment added by 141.225.151.154 (talk) 19:59, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

In the scriptures paraphrased: Tenrikyo followers follow the teachings of "God the Parent," through the mouth of Oyasama. Followers also refer to Oyasama as the "Divine Model" in which followers are to model as well. In a sense both religions are similar being that Tenrikyo follows Oyasama's model and Christian followers follow Jesus's model. By referring to God as our parent, we consider our fellow beings as brothers and sisters; another similar teaching. Any other similarities beyond that see or purchase: [http://www.amazon.com/Tenrikyo-Christian-Dialogue-Symposium/dp/4924787639/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1212884955&sr=8-1 Tenrikyo Christian Dialogue] from [http://www.amazon.com Amazon]. I have not read the text, but I hope someone can do a little extra research to find and compare both religions. --Lewdev (talk) 00:44, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

A Tenrikyo group in the UK tells me that the original translations into English of Tenrikyo texts was assisted by the Christian church - if it had been another group, then I doubt that the term "God the parent" would have been used. -- Medains (talk) 12:30, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

Are you implying that I use, "God," instead of "God the Parent?" Or are you saying that I am using "God the Parent," because I might have picked that up from the translated texts? "God the Parent" is the translation from Oyagamisama used by English speaking followers, and because this is about Tenrikyo, I used "God the Parent." In the Ofudesaki, God is referred to by three different names in sequence. First, Kami (lit. God). Second, Tsukihi (lit. moon sun) and finally Oyagamisama (lit. honorable parent god). This Tenrikyo Wiki article does not mention Oyagamisama but rather Oya. I do not think I should correct this because I have not read the Japanese scriptures, but rather, the English translated scriptures, so I cannot confirm whether God was referred as Oya or Oyagamisama in the original Japanese texts. However, when doing Naorei (paying respect to each of 3 shrines in a Tenrikyo church) Tenrikyo followers refer to the center shrine as Oyagamisama or "God the Parent" depending on what language the person leading the naorei wants to use. I have never heard of anyone using Oya to refer to God in Tenrikyo. I probably should have used "God" instead to maintain NPOV. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Lewdev (talk • contribs) 21:12, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

I'm saying that the phrase "God the Parent" originated in translated texts which were influenced to a certain degree by Christian translators - and the parallel with "God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit" is obvious. I prefer "Oya" to avoid any of the unhelpful associations that the western world will assume if I say "God". Likewise, in translation using god for Kami attaches western cultural associations that are unhelpful - IMO "spirit" is better for Kami (though obviously, just using "Kami" is best). Tsukihi doesn't have that problem, since the literal translation leaves westerners asking the question "what does that mean?" - which should be the question they ask when they hear Kami and Oya as well. There are so many terms in Tenrikyo that could easily be misunderstood by using them in translated form that I think it best to leave them in their untranslated forms - imagine the confusion that would result from using a literal translation of "Tenri-o-no-mikoto" without sufficiently explaining the use of the term. -- Medains (talk) 09:29, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

I can see where you are coming from and you want to move away from using translations that are Christian-like. However, translations are used to ease early non-Japanese-speaking followers or interested people into understanding the teachings and thus use English words like "God," "service," and "church," which are the closest words to translate Tenrikyo terms: "kami," "otsutome," and "kyokai" respectively. You can argue that this is the Internet and people can easily look up the Japanese Tenrikyo terms, but for the purpose of being in the English section of Wikipedia, I do not see it inappropriate or not being in a NVOP to use such English translations that Tenrikyo followers have adopted. It is also the closest we could get to an appropriate translation. I am aware that Christians in Japan refer to their churches as kyokai and probably kami for God in their translations as well. Using Oya could cause further confusion because it literally means "parent" in Japanese which is probably why Japanese followers say, "Oyagamisama." If someone asks, "Who is Oyagamisama?" the answer would likely be, "God the Parent," since English-speaking followers use it. If anything, I believe Christians and Tenrikyo followers are praying towards the same God and making a connection would only enforce the belief that God is our parent. --Lewdev (talk) 19:50, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

My own kyokai uses the term "study group" in explanation of what a kyokai is - church carries implications of special buildings, whereas our tsutome are held (service is an adequate translation I think, though we always say tsutome, probably to distinguish it from the kagura) in a special room in the home of our minister (I'm not 100% happy with "minister" but it's fairly neutral). I think the view that Tenrikyo followers are praying to the same "God" as Christians (or vice versa) would be quite strenuously debated by Christian and Tenrikyo scholars -- Medains (talk) 11:12, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

First of all, you are right. There is a discussion of this concerning the use of the word "church" as direct translation of "kyokai" here: [2] I was once in disagreement like yourself to have Christian-like terms be used to translate Tenrikyo ones, but in the end, who's going to change or accept a new way to translate Tenrikyo terms? Are we to determine these standards when hundreds of Tenrikyo kyokais in America use the word "church" to their kyokais' names and hundreds of Christian churches in Japan use the word "kyokai" in their churches' names. Are we to accept or protest? I eventually just accepted all translations that were made by people back in the day because that was how I was taught but I also hope that change will come eventually. I don't expect you to agree, but I think that is what it all comes down to. --Lewdev (talk) 04:37, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

POV

The "History" section of this article seems to have been written by someone who wants to emphasize that "Tenrikyo is NOT a form of Shinto." This statement is contradicted by the Japanese encyclopedia MyPedia and the dictionary definition given for Tenrikyo in Digital Daijisen. Sarumaru the Poet (talk) 02:23, 21 July 2013 (UTC)

Not sure I understand the objection here. Which specific passages are not NPOV? Although Tenrikyo has Shinto roots it no longer self-identifies as a Shinto sect, and is generally recognised today as a distinct religion. Perhaps this page will be an acceptable citation? http://adherents.com/largecom/com_tenrikyo.html MaxBrowne (talk) 14:42, 28 August 2013 (UTC)

In the postwar period there is no authority to determine whether Tenrikyo is "Shinto" or not. In the Religions Yearbook they specifically asked to be outside Sect Shinto, and the History section should acknowledge that, regardless of what some guy writing an unsourced encyclopedia article thinks. It is really idiotic to think that an encyclopedia can overrule the sect's own designation without any justification whatsoever. Shii (tock) 15:57, 28 August 2013 (UTC)

On a related note, I'm going to remove the entire history section in a month or so unless someone adds reliable sources. Qwyrxian (talk) 21:38, 28 August 2013 (UTC)

Sure, I don't have time to hunt down sources anymore, and you're within your rights to do that. Lame move though. Shii (tock) 01:17, 29 August 2013 (UTC)

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harassment during Imperial era?

How much interest did the Japanese secret police give this sect during the mid-1930's to the end of WW2? Was it bypassed due to being classified as a Shinto sect? 50.111.40.79 (talk) 01:43, 26 October 2022 (UTC)