Talk:The Holocaust in Belarus

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Resistance fighters[edit]

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Brest Ghetto[edit]

The article should likely mention this ghetto, which I've just stubbed. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk 21:28, 29 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Kaminsky and Holocaust[edit]

Kaminsky did not participate in anti-Jewish actions in Belarus. He came to Belarus in August 1943, when the Jewish communities here had been liquidated. His people took part in massacres of Jews in the Orel oblast in 1942, but no more. In 1944, they "distinguished" also in Warsaw. After Kaminsky’s death, members of his detachments were scattered inside the units of the Russian Vlasov army. Moreover, even here among Vlasov collaborators, the Kaminky’s soldiers were considered as bandits. Thus, the theme "Kaminsky and Jews" has no relation to Belarus. --Pessimist2006 (talk) 20:16, 14 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Forgotten camp[edit]

The extermination camp Bronnaya Gora was a destruction site established by the Germans in 1942 near the village of Bronnaya Gora in the raion Biaroza of Brest of Voblast, in Belarus. Here, more than 50,000 people were killed., source: De.wikipedia.org. Valleyspring (talk) 05:28, 15 March 2013 (UTC)[reply]

How many Jews lived and died in Belarus?[edit]

Simple question that this article fails to answer. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 06:59, 10 December 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The question isn't simple because the word Belarus has many meanings.Xx236 (talk) 12:31, 31 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

on the territory of contemporary Belarus[edit]

The article is ahistorical, contemporary Belarus didn't exist during the WWII. It rewrites the history of Eastern Poland/Western Belarus with its Polish minority, sometimes majority (Grodno region).Xx234 (talk) 07:41, 12 February 2015 (UTC)[reply]

It did exist as the Belarusian SSR whose borders corresponded with those of today's Belarus and also included the city of Bielastok, now part of Poland --Czalex 21:01, 29 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]
The BSSR, the Mother of Belarus people with places like Kurapaty or Цагельня near Chervyen’.Xx236 (talk) 12:42, 31 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

March 29, 2015[edit]

Belarus is a sovereign country today, with borders shaped by the Dissolution of the Soviet Union dating back to 1991; please keep the perspective. – Modern Belarus was not a sovereign state until 1991 (historical significance). Going back to 1939, just before the beginning of World War II, the territory of present-day Belarus belonged to two other sovereign states who signed a peace Treaty of Riga almost two decades earlier in 1920. In terms of borders, the eastern half of modern-day Belarus belonged to Belarusian SSR, a much smaller republic of the Soviet Union with central government in Moscow. Most ethnic Belarusian citizens of the Soviet Union lived in Belarusian SSR but also elsewhere. Meanwhile, the ethnic Belarusians who lived in Poland predominantly in the territory of the so-called West Belarus of today (but not only) remained a significant Polish minority group who held Polish citizenship like everyone else.

Belarusian language in Poland, 1931

Please note that the ethnically Polish citizens of the USSR who used to live in Belarusian SSR (!) in the interwar period were all but eradicated in 1937-38 on direct orders of Josef Stalin during the worst Red Terror murder operation in Soviet history, known today as the Genocide of Poles in the Soviet Union (1937-1938). Before the Soviet invasion of Poland in September 1939, citizens of Poland – including Christian Poles and Polish Jews most of whom perished in mere 3 years – lived in eastern Poland, not in western Belarus! Along with them, everywhere around Kresy, lived Polish citizens of Belarusian background.

According to Polish census of 1931 (page 34 in PDF), in the Polesie Voivodeship (just an example) with the capital in Brześć (not Брест), the population doubled between 1921 and 1931 from 118,850 to 215,927 citizens. Across the entire voivodeship in both, big cities, and small villages, there lived together 1,131,939 people. Mother tongue for 164,106 of them was Polish language, Yiddish language for 96,514 and Hebrew language for 16,452 citizens (for the total of 112,966 Jews) Belarusian language for 75,338 citizens, Ukrainian language for 54,047 people, and Russian language for 16,198 citizens (page 52 in PDF). There were also 707,088 citizens who declared their first language as "tutejszy" meaning "local." Historians on both side of the fence still debate what it meant, but we don't need to. The country was Poland, one way or another.

Following the Nazi-Soviet Pact signed with Nazi Germany, the surprise Soviet invasion of Poland took place simultaneously in September 1939. The Kresy region was split in two, and annexed into two republics: BSSR and URSR in the atmosphere of terror,[1][2] but only temporarily, for just two years. The Kresy were annexed again by the Nazis in 1941 in the course of the German attack on the Soviet positions in eastern Poland during Operation Barbarossa.[3] Polish Belarusians, Ukrainians, Jews and other minorities lived in occupied Poland by international standards, until new deals have been ratified toward the end of war, because international law do not count rapid invasions (without declaration of war) as "new countries". The Holocaust victims on the territory of occupied Poland remained the citizens of Poland until that time. Poeticbent talk 04:46, 30 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Animated map of the 1939 invasion of Poland. Please watch what happened to Białystok at the top right-of-centre of this map
  • Hi, Xx236, thanks for asking. I used the example of Polesie Voivodeship in my essay for the sake of argument. However, I now realize that it would have been better, if I used the example of Białystok Voivodeship (1919–39) instead, because in the course of war, Polish Białystok was one of the most straight-forward cases of a tripple (not double) annexation within the shortest possible period of time. Taken over by Nazi Germany in 1939, the city was handed over by them to the Soviets for two years. In 1941 it was taken back, and annexed to the new administrative unit of Nazi Germany called Bezirk Bialystok with the capital in Białystok. Please watch closely to what happened to it in this striking little animation. Poeticbent talk 16:07, 1 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Meanwhile, in 1941 Polesie Voivodeship was split three ways. North-west became part of Bezirk Bialystok in 1941, north-east became part of Reichskommissariat Ostland, and the south became part of Reichskommissariat Ukraine. This is where the Belarussian and Ukrainian auxilliary battalions (including Belarusian Home Defence) conducted murder operations against the Polish Jews in villages.[4] Poeticbent talk 16:24, 1 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  1. ^ Bernd Wegner (1997). From peace to war: Germany, Soviet Russia, and the world, 1939–1941. Berghahn Books. p. 74. ISBN 1-57181-882-0.
  2. ^ Stosunki polsko-białoruskie pod okupacją sowiecką, (Polish-Byelorussian relations under the Soviet occupation). Bialorus.pl (in Polish)
  3. ^ Encyklopedia PWN (2015). "Okupacja sowiecka ziem polskich 1939–41" [Soviet occupation of Poland in 1939-41]. Przywracanie Pamięci (in Polish). Polscy Sprawiedliwi. Retrieved 18 March 2015.
  4. ^ Wilson, Andrew (2011). Belarus: The Last European Dictatorship. Yale University Press. pp. 109, 110, 113. ISBN 0300134355. Retrieved 6 February 2015. {{cite book}}: Invalid |ref=harv (help)

The cities were renamed in Russian[edit]

Russian only? Xx236 (talk) 12:28, 31 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Who murdered?[edit]

The article doesn't inform about collaboration.Xx236 (talk) 12:59, 31 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Minsk[edit]

  • Soviet partisans dwelled in forests and villages, not in Minsk.
  • The city wasn't divided literally, the people of Minsk were divided.Xx236 (talk) 13:04, 31 March 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Gomel Region[edit]

A big part of the article describes Gomel Region. What happened in other regions?Xx236 (talk) 11:26, 1 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Sources for the 30th Division - from Wikipedia[edit]

  • Jeffrey J. Clarke and Robert Ross Smith, Riviera to the Rhine, Washington: GPO, 1993.
  • George Nafziger, The German Order of Battle Waffen SS and other units in World War II, Conshohocken, PA: Combined Publishing, 2001.
  • Georg Tessin and Norbert Kannapin, Waffen-SS und Ordnungspolizei im Kriegseinsatz 1939-1945, Osnabrück: Biblio Verlag, 2000.
  • Georg Tessin, Verbande und Truppen der deutschen Wehrmacht und Waffen SS im Zweiten Weltkrieg 1939-1945 Vierter Band: Die Landstreitkrafte 15—30 Frankfurt/Main: Verlag E. S. Mittler & Sohn GmbH, 1970.

Xx236 (talk) 06:17, 9 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Main article: Anti-partisan operations in Belarus[edit]

There is no such article, it's a section which is shorter than this section. Xx236 (talk) 06:22, 9 April 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Mogilev conference[edit]

I would like to contribute a section on the Mogilev conference of Sept 1941; more info can be found here: Arthur Nebe: Mogilev conference.

It can probably go into the section 'German invasion' as it took place during Operation Barbarossa and set the stage for both the Holocaust and the anti-partisan operations in Belarus.

Would there be any objections? K.e.coffman (talk) 07:48, 28 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

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Copyright problem removed[edit]

Prior content in this article duplicated one or more previously published sources. The material was copied from: http://www.jewishgen.org/Belarus/newsletters/gomel/GomelGhettos/index.html. Copied or closely paraphrased material has been rewritten or removed and must not be restored, unless it is duly released under a compatible license. (For more information, please see "using copyrighted works from others" if you are not the copyright holder of this material, or "donating copyrighted materials" if you are.)

For legal reasons, we cannot accept copyrighted text or images borrowed from other web sites or published material; such additions will be deleted. Contributors may use copyrighted publications as a source of information, and, if allowed under fair use, may copy sentences and phrases, provided they are included in quotation marks and referenced properly. The material may also be rewritten, providing it does not infringe on the copyright of the original or plagiarize from that source. Therefore, such paraphrased portions must provide their source. Please see our guideline on non-free text for how to properly implement limited quotations of copyrighted text. Wikipedia takes copyright violations very seriously, and persistent violators will be blocked from editing. While we appreciate contributions, we must require all contributors to understand and comply with these policies. Thank you. Poeticbent talk 18:55, 26 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Addendum. Most of the direct WP:COPYVIO was added in this edit (+6,141) as of 02:11, 16 February 2009 by User:82.131.63.232 who has not been active enough to warrant an investigation into the matter; however, much more material might have to be removed upon further inspection. Poeticbent talk 19:36, 26 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Earwig's Copyvio Detector[edit]

The top half of the article has been cleaned up, but the second half remains the editorial nightmare. I don't even mention the fact that the lifted material says little if anything at all (!) about the Holocaust of the Jews.

Results
Maly Trostenets needs to be approached with caution. According to the Soviet Extraordinary State Commission practically specializing in misinformation (see: the Katyn massacre) over half a million Jews perished there. These numbers are considered greatly exaggerated by western historians. Yad Vashem estimates the number of victims at over 60,000 Jews. Poeticbent talk

Poeticbent talk 19:12, 29 July 2016 (UTC)[reply]

The Germans determined the identities of the Jews either through registration, or by issuing decrees.[edit]

by issuing decrees?Xx236 (talk) 10:13, 28 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Wouldn't it better to summarize the decrees : it was necessary to consider anyone who was born to a Jewish parent a Jew. It was more precisely determined that a Christian baptism did not change matters, and baptizing Jews or half-Jews was categorically forbidden.(13). ?06:03, 30 March 2017 (UTC)

Mass murders in Nawahrudak[edit]

This page is about Jews.
Nawahrudak is overrepresented or other towns are underrepresented.Xx236 (talk) 06:31, 29 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The Red Army liberated the city[edit]

And the NKVD started to kill Polish people. liberated isn't neutral here.Xx236 (talk) 06:00, 30 March 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Name[edit]

A year ago User:Brigade Piron moved the page The Holocaust in Belarus to The Holocaust in Byelorussia with rationale: "Per German occupation of Byelorussia during World War II to distinguish it from the modern nation-state." (the lead was not changed and this article still uses "Belarus" rather than "Byelorussia" throughout). I am not sure the move nor the rationale were good ideas. Byelorussia is a disambig anyway, and I am not aware that this term is the common way of referring to Belarus in WWII. Looking at the history of that page, I don't see it ever had RM either; in 2016 "Brigade Piron" moved German occupation of Belarus during World War II to German occupation of Byelorussia during World War II with the edit summary "Per Byelorussian Soviet Socialist Republic - Belarus and Byelorussia are not quite the same thing geographica...". I suggest this is moved back; first, the articles were stable under Belarus - this calls for a RM from the original, stable name, not the other way around. Second, the scope of both of those articles is not just the territory of the Byelorussian Soviet Socialist Republic - it also concerned disputed territories (parts of modern Belarus where part of pre-war Poland, and both articles discuss those areas as well). Third, Belarus is pretty the common name for all those topics. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 06:49, 9 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Piotr, you are obviously welcome to open a RM discussion but I'm afraid I think your first point is a solution looking for a problem. A RM might have been a good idea in 2016, but you cannot simply claim that it needs discussion now some five years later. There is clearly a degree of consensus around the current title and the title Byelorussia has become pretty "stable" too in the interim. Mellk has, for example, made edits to this effect at the German occupation article very recently. Others also.
As for the scope, I think it is pretty clear what the article should cover. The Holocaust in Poland covers the pre-war territory of the Polish Second Republic, while this one covers the Byelorussian SSR. There is a risk of confusion and overlap... but it is very, very small and we can discuss how this can be managed if the issue arises. As for the common name argument? I have seen no evidence that Belarus is generally used to refer to the Soviet-era state, rather than the modern country and there is an obvious risk of anachronism. —Brigade Piron (talk) 07:32, 9 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Also, "the article still uses "Belarus" rather than "Byelorussia" throughout" is simply wrong. I have just changed the mention in the first line but all the others explicitly refer to the "modern-day" or "present-day" state. —Brigade Piron (talk) 07:39, 9 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
This is a difficult one. Of course in English the modern state is almost always referred to as "Belarus", while the Soviet republic was referred to and seems to still be more commonly referred to as the "Byelorussian SSR" or "Belorussian SSR" rather than "Belarusian SSR" ("Byelorussia" for short). As this article is referring to the Byelorussian SSR, I think that The Holocaust in Byelorussia would make more sense, but I do not have a strong opinion on this. As this move was in 2016, I would suggest a new RM discussion. Mellk (talk) 15:05, 9 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 16 September 2021[edit]

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) Vpab15 (talk) 09:42, 24 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The Holocaust in Byelorussia → The Holocaust in Belarus – This article was under The Holocaust in Belarus until it was moved, without a discussion, to the current name. I'll note, first, that "Holocaust in Byelorussia" is much less popular than "Holocaust in Belarus" in English literature. Google Scholar gives 8 hits for "Holocaust in Byelorussia" and ~200 for "Holocaust in Belarus". Second, Category:The Holocaust by country is structured using modern country names (and the category Category:The Holocaust in Belarus wasn't changed); we have The Holocaust in Russia while The Holocaust in the Soviet Union is pretty much a disambig; other relevant articles are The Holocaust in Ukraine or The Holocaust in Lithuania, etc. This article, after the undiscussed renaming, is a weird outlier. It should be moved back to the previous, common and stable name. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 08:30, 16 September 2021 (UTC) Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 08:30, 16 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

  • support per nom—blindlynx (talk) 15:27, 16 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • support per nomination as well. and people are most likely to search by the modern name of the country, despite it being about historical events. --Dan Carkner (talk) 16:09, 16 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support per nom--RicardoNixon97 (talk) 06:58, 17 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support per the naming WP:CRITERIA, especially consistency, but also naturalness and recognizability. —Michael Z. 14:00, 17 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support per consistency with country name. 180.242.45.136 (talk) 19:16, 17 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. This nom is disingenuous as hell - the article has had a "stable name" under the current title since 2016. I get the WP:COMMONNAME argument in principle, but this fails on WP:PRECISION. The subject of the article is self-evidently the place that contemporaries knew as Byelorussia - not a modern country with different borders known by a different name. All the other articles Piotrus cites are based on the contemporary pre-WWII states - and this distinction really matters for countries such as The Holocaust in Poland. The articles on Russia and the Ukraine are self-evidently referencing the Soviet republics, not the modern state. —Brigade Piron (talk) 20:24, 17 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    "All the other articles Piotrus cites are based on the contemporary pre-WWII states"? Really? Ukraine one seems to focus on Reichskommissariat Ukraine, not Ukrainian SSR, for example. Anyway, the minute border differences between such entities are irrelevant - next to nobody cares about the borders of Belarusian SSR vs Reichskommissariat Ostland vs modern Belarus here. The context is Belarus, broadly defined, and this is the case for all "The Holocaust in Foo" articles. Which is why this article is titled The Holocaust in Belarus and not The Holocaust in Reichskommissariat Ostland. Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 06:45, 21 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support per nominator and User:Dan Carkner. JIP | Talk 10:21, 18 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support per nom. I note the existence of Discretionary Sanctions in this topic area. User:力 (power~enwiki, π, ν) 17:33, 21 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. I think this is best seen as reversing the move
10:09, 31 May 2020‎ Brigade Piron talk contribs block‎  89 bytes +89‎  Brigade Piron moved page The Holocaust in Belarus to The Holocaust in Byelorussia: Per German occupation of Byelorussia during World War II to distinguish it from the modern nation-state

As such, the previous (and original, from January 2009) name of the article Holocaust in Belarus should be seen as the stable name. Andrewa (talk) 09:10, 23 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]


The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Maly Trostenets[edit]

Not mentioned.Xx236 (talk) 08:14, 23 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

50/300[edit]

Hi GizzyCatBella, do I understand from your edit summary that you automatically revert new editors? Stara Marusya (talk) 11:26, 4 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Stara Marusya, yes, you need to be extended confirmed to edit this topic area. (500 edits/30 days) you are almost there, no? - GizzyCatBella🍁 15:03, 4 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]
When I went to edit the Arabs page, such a warning appeared. Not here. Stara Marusya (talk) 12:49, 5 January 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Belarus/SSR[edit]

Why does this article now limit itself to the Holocaust in the SSR? The Holocaust in Ukraine doesn't. Stara Marusya (talk) 23:37, 10 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

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