Talk:Theory of forms

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Progress Report[edit]

Hi, I am making good progress and hope to finish in some weeks: harder than I thought! JohnD'Alembert (talk) 10:39, 1 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Request for clarification on "theory of Ideas" / Ideentheorie[edit]

The second paragraph of the opening statement concludes with: "This transliteration and the translation tradition of German and Latin lead to the expression "theory of Ideas." The word is however not the English "idea," which is a mental concept only." The German expression for "theory of Ideas" is Ideentheorie and I do not know of a difference in meaning expressed in the German word "Idee" vs. the English "idea" (To me they both describe a mental concept only).

Can someone clarify, what difference in meaning are we talking about here? Erwin Flaming (talk) 06:57, 12 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 29 July 2017[edit]

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Moved to Theory of forms. No such user (talk) 09:52, 21 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Theory of Forms → Theory of forms – Per WP:MOSCAPS ("Wikipedia avoids unnecessary capitalization") and WP:TITLE, this is a generic, common term, not a propriety or commercial term, so the article title should be downcased. Lowercase will match the formatting of related article titles. Tony (talk) 05:30, 29 July 2017 (UTC)--Relisting. DrStrauss talk 19:04, 8 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Google's ngram search shows about equal hits for lowercase and capped, which means that by our guidelines we go lowercase. The search did not even exclude title case instances in books. Tony (talk) 05:30, 29 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: the article seems to capitalise "Form" throughout; if the article is moved to Theory of forms then that should probably be changed... Caeciliusinhorto (talk) 08:30, 29 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

And it looks like this page was moved from Theory of forms to Theory of Forms in 2008 per this discussion on the grounds that the title was a proper noun. I am unconvinced that it is, though. Caeciliusinhorto (talk) 08:34, 29 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Support – In addition to the ngrams that Tony showed, often "Forms" is capped when "theory" is not, but it's hard to see how that could a proper name, nor the full title. The lowercase "theory of forms" is quite common, so go with WP style default. Dicklyon (talk) 05:51, 30 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Requested move 28 April 2024[edit]

It has been proposed in this section that Theory of forms be renamed and moved to Theory of Forms.

A bot will list this discussion on requested moves' current discussions subpage within an hour of this tag being placed. The discussion may be closed 7 days after being opened, if consensus has been reached (see the closing instructions). Please base arguments on article title policy, and keep discussion succinct and civil.

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Theory of forms → Theory of Forms – I'd like to reopen this discussion. The lead for the last few years has hinged on capitalization to show that the word "Form" here is being used in a technical philosophical way rather than in the everyday use of the English word "form". Although not all scholarly sources follow this convention, plenty do, and it's common to even find sources explicitly making special note of this capitalization. Examples of such sources include: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, etc. Wolfdog (talk) 15:22, 28 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]

MOS:CAPS says that we should capitalize a term only if it's "consistently capitalized in a substantial majority of independent, reliable sources". Because it's not clear from your nomination statement, I want to ask, are you contending that that is the case here? Or is this more of a WP:IAR kind of thing? Colin M (talk) 16:05, 28 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
- I'm no expert, but, for a cursory response to your question, I typed "theory of forms" plato "forms are" into Google Scholar (it may seem a strange string of words, but I wanted both "theory of forms" to nail down the specific topic as a whole as well as to see "forms" by itself in at least one sentence). Of the first 30 results, 22 show consistent capitalization; of the first 40 results, 31 show it; and perhaps we can extrapolate from there. (There may be repeat sources.) Wolfdog (talk) 16:26, 28 April 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support. In this context, it is commonly capitalized, and more recognizable as the Platonic theory when capitalized (given that "forms" itself is a generic word). Walrasiad (talk) 08:59, 1 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: I went to Google Books to see how it's treated. The top result was William A. Welton's Plato's Forms: Varieties of Interpretation (2002). In the introduction, "theory of Forms" is alternated with "theory of forms", but "forms" by itself is not capitalized. In R. M. Dancy, Plato's Introduction of Forms (2002), "Theory of Forms" is usually capitalized, but not always; by itself "Forms" is usually capitalized when using Plato's sense, not the generic sense, but I think I saw some counter-examples. In Gail Fine, On Ideas: Aristotle's Criticism of Plato's Theory of Forms (1993), "forms" by itself is never capitalized, and "theory of forms" is sometimes treated as a proper name, and capitalized, but also referred to in a generic sense, and not. Vasilis Politis, Plato's Essentialism: Reinterpreting the Theory of Forms, we find "theory of Forms" and "Forms" consistently capitalized, with the theory itself not being treated as a proper name, but "Forms" capitalized to distinguish a specific sense from a generic sense of the word. This mirrors the earlier usage in R. E. Allen, Plato's 'Euthyphro' and the Earlier Theory of Forms (1970, 2013), in which "Forms" is capitalized as a special use, but "theory of Forms" is not. If I look specifically at 19th century sources, I still find a split in usage, with "Forms" capitalized more often than "theory", but not always.

So what we have here is two different issues: whether the "theory of forms" postulated by Plato is the proper name of his theory, for which there is some support, but it seems to be so treated in a minority of sources, both old and new. "Forms" by itself is not a proper name, but is capitalized in many sources, perhaps the majority, to distinguish it from the generic use of the word, and this practice goes back a long way in scholarship, although it has never been universal. This supports the proposed move, although I'm not personally convinced that "Forms" needs to be capitalized in order to distinguish Plato's sense from the generic sense of the word. Not sure whether to support the proposal, but that's what I'm finding: "Forms" is not a proper noun, and "theory of forms" is only sometimes treated as a proper name, but "Forms" is capitalized simply to distinguish it from the generic "forms". P Aculeius (talk) 11:36, 3 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]