Talk:Tunisia/Archive 2

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Archive 1 Archive 2

Reprise of the Berber question

I'd like to reprise the question at Talk:Tunisia/Archive 1#Berber name for Tunisia of the representation of the country's name in Berber at the beginning of the article, because it seems to me that the previous consensus to do so in the current manner conflated the use of the language with the use of the Tifinagh writing system to represent it. It's my understanding that Tifinagh has no appreciable foothold in the country. Therefore, rendering the names here in Tifinagh is a biased, prescriptive approach based on someone's notion of what writing system they should be using rather than acknowledging the writing system they actually use. —Largo Plazo (talk) 21:45, 14 February 2014 (UTC)

Hello —Largo Plazo,
Most of the Amazigh literature in Tunisia is currently written in Tifinagh. The courses that teach Amazigh languages rely on the Tifinagh script. One political party actually uses Tifinagh in publications and campaigns as you can see here: https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=712833745413968, https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=712620028768673, https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=712618148768861.
In my opinion, the usage of Tifinagh to write the Amazigh name of the country is founded and justified. If there would be any other alternatives you might suggest, please go ahead.
Regards.
E3 (talk) 12:28, 3 March 2014 (UTC)
OK, thanks. My impression was otherwise, I think in part because Tifinagh, except for the part about ancient times, omits any mention of Tunisia while discussing Morocco and Libya. —Largo Plazo (talk) 12:42, 3 March 2014 (UTC)

Copyright problem removed

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Climate

Tunisia's climate is temperate in the north, with mild rainy winters and hot, dry summers. The south of the country is desert. Fully correct, but WHY? That does not become clear in the article. However here you can see why this is so: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:World_map_indicating_tropics_and_subtropics.png Tunisia is the small grassy-green spot between the big cream-yellow one and the big pale green one. Find the upper dotted line "Subtropics" and follow it with your eyes up to the center of the map: you can see that Tunisia's territory is divided up horizontally in one third of temperate climate and two third of subtropic climate. -andy 2.242.246.167 (talk) 15:23, 20 July 2014 (UTC)

Climate doesn't work like that, changing dramatically at specific exact latitudes, any more than the temperature jumps from moderate to very hot temperatures on the day of the summer equinox. Look at the eastern United States, for example. As you move south along the coast, it gets gradually warmer. There is no sharp change at any point, 45 degrees or otherwise. And there is certainly no desert south of the 45th parallel.
The tropics and polar circles on that map have some astronomical significance related to the position of the sun in the sky and have a rough relationship to climate over the course of the year, but the lines at 45 degrees north and south latitudes don't even have that level of connection to climate. The sharp division they represent between temperate and subtropical zones is purely a convention.
What produces the climatic divide in Tunisia is geographical, with the lower, southern part of the country isolated from the Mediterranean climate of the north by the various ranges of the Atlas Mountains. —Largo Plazo (talk) 21:54, 20 July 2014 (UTC)

Fixing the first sentence

The first sentence of this article is completely unreadable due to the numerous foreign equivalent spellings listed. According to MOS:FORLANG: "If the subject of the article is closely associated with a non-English language, a single foreign language equivalent name can be included in the lead sentence... If more than one foreign equivalent is needed, put them in a separate sentence in the lead or in a Name section rather than in the opening sentence." As it is now, the first sentence includes six foreign equivalent spellings. I would like to propose that these foreign equivalents all be moved to the first section after the lead, which would be renamed "Name and etymology" (it's currently named 'Etymology'). The English pronunciations would stay in the lead sentence. Kaldari (talk) 02:29, 19 May 2015 (UTC)

I agree that the lead sentence is unreadable and violates MOS:FORLANG. I would support Kaldari's suggestion to move the various pronunciations out of the lead sentence, and would also support placing them in a footnote instead of in the text of the lead. Barryjjoyce (talk) 02:05, 3 June 2015 (UTC)

Administrative and Municipal divisons

Because it's not quite made clear, on what level do municipalities (shaykhats) and rural councils sit, and are these two on the same level? As far as I can tell, administratively, there are governerates on the first level, delegations on the second level, and sectors (imadats) on the third level. However, I'm not sure if municipalities and rural councils are administrative divisions, and even if they aren't, if they are incorporated independent and regardless of governorate, delegation, and sector boundaries. Like, can municipalities and rural councils cross administrative boundaries? If so, they are local/municipal governments, which is another layer of division, a political division as opposed to an statutory administrative one. This should be made clear. --Criticalthinker (talk) 09:19, 28 June 2015 (UTC)

Anyone? --Criticalthinker (talk) 12:51, 8 July 2015 (UTC)

GA review

The article, has reached a consequent level of information, also I nominated it for GA, anyone who wants, can review it to accept the motion.Tounsimentounes (talk) 19:57, 18 November 2015 (UTC)

"Only democracy in the arab world"

That's just simply not true. Sure, it's one of the the only democracies not currently under extreme turmoil from Islamism or corrupt officials, but there are a number of constitutional republics and monarchies all over the arab world. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.3.91.41 (talk) 13:22, December 1, 2015‎ (UTC)

Indeed. Lebanon, yes, and then, depending on your interpretation, Egypt, Kuwait, and Yemen. —Largo Plazo (talk) 21:36, 1 December 2015 (UTC)
@—Largo Plazo, we can say accoding to Freedom House, « Tunisia became the Arab world’s only Free country after holding democratic elections under a new constitution ». Ref. --Helmoony (talk) 23:37, 1 December 2015 (UTC)

GA Review

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This review is transcluded from Talk:Tunisia/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: SSTflyer (talk · contribs) 07:39, 23 December 2015 (UTC)


Quick fail – the article has 4 valid {{cn}} tags. sst✈(discuss) 07:57, 23 December 2015 (UTC)

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It's OK, checked. Vanjagenije (talk) 01:59, 10 January 2016 (UTC)

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First archive link is OK, but the second is not working. Vanjagenije (talk) 02:01, 10 January 2016 (UTC)

Tunisian system of government

There has been some discussion at User talk:Fumehime#Parliamentary republic and User talk:B.Lameira#Tunisia do not fit the semi presidential system category about the system of government of Tunisia. B.Lameira asked on my talk page for me to comment. As per policy, I would emphasise the definition in the article needs to meet the standards for Wikipedia:Verifiability based on reliable secondary sources. The point of view of editors involved does not matter in making this determination. Two sources provided by User:B.Lameira ([1] and [2]) describe it as semi-presidential government. While User:Fumehime described it as a parliamentary system provided a few sources ([3] [4] [5]). If there are other reliable secondary sources supporting this or describing it differently then please discuss them here. Whizz40 (talk) 08:37, 17 January 2016 (UTC)

This one [6] isn't a WP:RS, as it's a blog post published by the blog owner. Right now it looks far and away like we should retain parliamentary as it has been prior to B.Lameira's changes/edit-warring starting 25 December 2015. Softlavender (talk) 08:58, 17 January 2016 (UTC); edited 09:41, 17 January 2016 (UTC)
Please note, once consensus is reached, the articles Parliamentary system‎, Parliamentary republic‎ and Semi-presidential system should be brought in line. Whizz40 (talk) 09:06, 17 January 2016 (UTC)
While it may not be WP:RS, the blog is written by a political scientist (Elgie), but this source ([7]) is reliable, in my opinion, but of course that I will try to look for more. --B.Lameira (talk) 15:39, 17 January 2016 (UTC)
Here are several I have found: [8], [9], [10], [11] and [12]. --B.Lameira (talk) 15:52, 17 January 2016 (UTC)
These all look like good sources, and all describe Tunisia as semi-presidential (noting I could not access the first in the line above, numbered 8). The one published by Routledge in 2014 and authored by two Italian academics is reliable, as is the EU analysis and the other two sources (at least) contribute to indicating common usage. What do other editors think? Whizz40 (talk) 07:08, 20 January 2016 (UTC)
I've looked at these four non-blog sources and they are all reliable sources that substantiate that Tunisia is now a semi-presidential government. Softlavender (talk) 21:49, 20 January 2016 (UTC)
The second source provided by User:Fumehime appears to support the semi-presidential model as well. Using google translate, page 12:
In the end, the Constitution establishes a unicameral parliament, the Assembly of Deputies People And a President of the Republic elected by universal suffrage, With particular the power to define defense policy, foreign affairs and internal security, appointment to high military posts, diplomatic and security, the Mufti of the Republic and the Governor of the Central Bank And exceptional powers in case of "a serious threat to the national entity, its safety or independence". he also has a right of reply to the Constitutional Court, To convene the referendum on international conventions or the rights and freedoms and initiative Constitutional revision that overrides parliamentary initiatives in this field. As for the right to dissolve the Assembly determines the balance of power within the executive, it remains limited to two cases. First, the one where the government not able to obtain the confidence of the Assembly four months after the appointment of a Head of Government 47 . Then, as part of a procedure whereby the Chairman the Republic to request a vote of confidence from the Assembly vis-à-vis the Government when the dissolution would be possible in case of refusal of confidence, that power can however, be double-edged noting that the President of the Republic would considered resigned in case of renewal of the confidence of the Assembly the Government twice during a single mandate 48 . In other words, not only the exercise of this right may be at high risk for the President of the Republic since starting the parliamentary majority continues to exist, but constitution does not grant him the power to dissolve the Assembly Crisis serious political as could the French and Italian presidents to call
If there are no objections to describing the Tunisian system as a semi-presidential republic, premier-presidential system subtype based on these sources then the article(s) can be updated. Whizz40 (talk) 21:19, 25 January 2016 (UTC)
@Whizz40: actually, if you notice the source (in French) already given in the main article, it also supports the semi-presidential system as well, as it describes a "mixed-parliamentary system" with a "dual executive", as Shugart also describes this system in a scientific paper published in 2005. And I agree with the change, obviously. --B.Lameira (talk) 23:44, 26 January 2016 (UTC)

Some word(s) missing

Sentence: In addition, Tunisia is also a state party the principal world's institutions such as the United Nations or the International Criminal Court. Missing a preposition or something here. Think it should read "party to", but English is not my home language. Can someone correct, please? ````Mieliestronk — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mieliestronk (talk • contribs) 21:09, 20 February 2016 (UTC)

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Democracy and political stability

According to the Economist Intelligence Unit, Tunisia is the only country of the Middle East and North Africa (MENA) considered as a democracy. The change came after the Arab Spring in 2011 in which the longtime dictator Zine El Abidine Ben Ali was overthrown. After the revolution, Tunisia has struggled to maintain political stability, but experts believe that in the future things will settle.

The Arab spring that struck across North Africa and the Middle East began in this tiny country. Because of the revolts, the Prime Minister had to leave the charge after 23 years in power. This event marked the beginning of a new era in Tunisian politics as it started the transition to democracy.

Although the dictatorship ended and elections were held, Tunisia is going through a period of democratic transition. There is political instability since for the first time in history Tunisians have the ability to determine their own destiny. This has caused tensions among the different political parties about how the State should be organized. There is a special controversy regarding the relationship of the State with religion, since while some wish to make sharia the main source of law, others want Tunisia to be a secular State.

Regardless of the difficulties that Tunisia is suffering in its democratic transition, it can be said that it has been successful. Compared to other Arab countries in which protests also caused a dictator to fall, Tunisia never suffered either a civil war or another coup d'état. For that reason the experts entrust that in the future the political situation will become stable. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sebastian.coronel94 (talk • contribs) 20:10, 7 May 2016 (UTC)

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Morocco has joined the African Union

Since Morocco has joined the African Union, the map indicating the position of the country becames obsolete. Someone should change it for a new one, maybe without the African union at all, as all african countries are in it now. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 37.219.142.98 (talk) 17:45, 10 February 2017 (UTC)

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"OF" or "BY" ?

Should "of " in the following be "by" ?

"Management of the later Zirid emirs was neglectful though, and political instability was connected to the decline of Tunisian trade and agriculture."76.171.14.188 (talk) 23:45, 23 August 2014 (UTC)

Yes, it should be "by". "Of" would mean that the Zirid emirs were being managed, not that they were managers.77Mike77 (talk) 15:34, 23 September 2017 (UTC)

Berber

Is Berber an official language of Tunisia? I dont understand why its there. --Arab League User (talk) 16:15, 3 August 2016 (UTC)

It's removed. Thank you. --Helmoony (talk) 15:30, 12 November 2017 (UTC)

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Rotary estimate

Pinkbeast and E3, I've updated the official population per Template:Update instead of an unreliable Rotary International club magazine population claim dating from a half-century ago. This is the same 50-year old estimate from the demographics page. I also pointed the infobox's ethnic groups parameter to the more neutral Maghrebis since the Berber estimate varies. Soupforone (talk) 15:39, 6 January 2018 (UTC)

Thank you. Pinkbeast (talk) 16:47, 6 January 2018 (UTC)
@Soupforone:

estimate; pronunciation /ˈestəmət/ /ˈɛstəmət/, An approximate calculation or judgment of the value, number, quantity, or extent of something.[1]

The source does not give any numbers, percentages or estimates. It instead concerns the historical ethnic makeup of Tunisia. Regarding the infobox, please do not remove cited information and then add information from the same source in the Demographics section. Regards - Swazzo (talk) 20:05, 6 January 2018 (UTC)

Also, you did not 'update' anything. All you did was remove referenced content and move the placing of the CIA census. Regards - Swazzo (talk) 21:22, 6 January 2018 (UTC)

References

  1. ^ "estimate | Definition of estimate in US English by Oxford Dictionaries". Oxford Dictionaries | English. {{cite web}}: Cite has empty unknown parameter: |dead-url= (help)

Actually, I did update the current population of Tunisia (the population figure above it was from 2013, not 2017) [13]. Also, the wikitext asserted in the present tense that "the population of Tunisia, from a sociological, historical and genealogical standpoint, is made up of mainly Arabs, Berbers and Turks", which the half-century old rotary/yacht club magazine doesn't even claim. It just indicates that at the time of publication (1969), "the population of more than 4.6 million is made up mostly of people of Arab, Berber, and Turkish descent." [14] However, this is inaccurate. According to the 1956 Tunisian census, the population primarily consisted of Arabs and Berbers [15]. It is the proportion of speakers of Berber dialects that was much lower, largely due to linguistic Arabization. Needless to say, a rotary/yacht club and a recipe book are not reliable sources for national demographics. As for the infobox's ethnic groups parameter, it is not neutral to just claim that 98% of the population consists of Arabs, when other estimates have Berbers at over 60% of the population [16]. Soupforone (talk) 05:48, 7 January 2018 (UTC)

The current ethnic group section is rather messy

There is too many sources supporting contradicting information ranging from berbers, romans, arabs to europeans according to which parameter is taken into consideration. I propose that those to be removed and instead replaced by Maghrebis which is a far more encompassing term. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Asmodim (talk • contribs) 12:33, 7 January 2018 (UTC)

Maghrebis is pithy. However, it is unlikely to be a stable infobox parameter. Soupforone (talk) 15:12, 7 January 2018 (UTC)

Roman Africans

Roman Africans were an ancient population. They were the inhabitants of the Roman Africa Province, which doesn't exist anymore. Soupforone (talk) 15:12, 7 January 2018 (UTC)

Ethnic non-sense

I rarely have seen such a ridiculous and conflicted box in wikipedia where people forsake all scientifical deontology and reason to promote POV, generally either centred around arabist or berberist whatnot. Tunisian people, consider themselves Tunisian nothing more nothing less just as a French consider himself French or a Lebanese consider himself Lebanese. Politics have no play in this category, it is due time to remove this non-sense, just keep Tunisians and protect the page.Asmodim (talk) 19:47, 2 February 2018 (UTC)

You've contradicted yourself. First you criticized POV and implied that the infobox should reflect the guidance given by scientific deontology. Then you threw deontology out the window and said the infobox should reflect the POV of Tunisians.
Also, what makes you think that the people changing it back and forth between Arab and Berber aren't Tunisians? If they are, then you're contradicting yourself again, asserting that instead of reflecting the POV of Tunisians, it should reflect the POV of Tunisians. Largoplazo (talk) 20:11, 2 February 2018 (UTC)
What I want is a page such as like of Lebanon, Libya or Egypt where they don't have this kind of sterile debates and instead simply have a demonym section with their actual nation (people that share a common national culture and language--> In our case Tunisian), instead of fighting with abitrary numbers without a single actual research backing them and that in addtion fail the definiton of a nation.Asmodim (talk) 21:00, 2 February 2018 (UTC)
In addition, I demand that any Tunisian here, if they are indeed involved, explains me exactly what is this absurd infighting that as I look is as old as the English Tunisia article.Asmodim (talk) 21:07, 2 February 2018 (UTC)

As per Template:Infobox country, the ethnic groups parameter is for "ethnic groups within the country/territory" and the demonym parameter is for "term/s describing those associated with the country/territory (e.g. "Belgian" for the country Belgium)". Since Tunisian is a demonym, it therefore goes in the demonym parameter. Soupforone (talk) 06:22, 3 February 2018 (UTC)

@Soupforone: Then do please tell me, why are we entertaining an ethnic box category when there isn't a single reliable source on that matter in Tunisia.Asmodim (talk) 10:26, 3 February 2018 (UTC)

The ethnic groups parameter is a standard parameter in Template:Infobox country. Soupforone (talk) 15:22, 3 February 2018 (UTC)

If Tunisian is not acceptable for ethnic group, then why is Syrian an ethnic group on its country's page? The same would go for Egyptian.Thenabster126 (talk) 18:33, 20 December 2018 (UTC)

Arab nation

@Saif212: I doubt the disagreement is over the classification of Tunisia as an Arab nation but over whether everything that is true about a country needs to be squeezed into the first sentence of an article about it. Anyway, see WP:Edit warring and WP:BRD before making the same change to the article. Largoplazo (talk) 14:19, 3 April 2019 (UTC)

Nomination of Portal:Tunisia for deletion

A discussion is taking place as to whether Portal:Tunisia is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.

The page will be discussed at Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Portal:Tunisia until a consensus is reached, and anyone is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines.

Users may edit the page during the discussion, including to improve the page to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the deletion notice from the top of the page. North America1000 01:38, 21 August 2019 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion:

You can see the reason for deletion at the file description page linked above. —Community Tech bot (talk) 18:52, 15 May 2020 (UTC)

Gibraltar is not on the African mainland ...

Second paragraph, last section: ″feature the African mainland's second and third nearest points to Europe after Gibraltar.″ That's just false and I'm not sure what is trying to be said here. Geofferic T•C✡ 17:38, 3 June 2020 (UTC)

It's badly worded; it clearly means to say that whatever is opposite Gibraltar is the closest point to Europe. But to me, naming the second and third closest points falls into the category of meaningless trivia/cruft anyway. I'm removing it. Largoplazo (talk) 18:46, 3 June 2020 (UTC)

Possible copyvio

Earwig identified this state.gov url as 72.9% likelihood of copyvio. The amount of copy is a small percentage (a few paragraphs and isolated sentences). The "Who Wrote That?" script identifies one copied segment in section #Military as originating from Underlying lk (talk · contribs) (still pops up every month or two for a few edits), who: "added this on 8 January 2013 2:15 PM. →‎Politics+3,904 They have written 14.2% of the page." I hope to get back to this eventually and do what needs to be done, but I'm oversubscribed, so just in case I don't @Diannaa: Thanks, Mathglot (talk) 07:31, 16 January 2021 (UTC)

Content of the US State Dept is in the public domain. I have added the required attribution.— Diannaa (talk) 12:22, 16 January 2021 (UTC)

Why the native name of Tunisia don't show up in the introdution ?

Tunisia arabic name, berber name and french name along with their respective pronounciations won't show up in the head of the page when you read the article. They are present in the source language of the page but they are missing when you try read the page. Pls I need the help from experienced editors to fix that problem. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Callmewess (talk • contribs) 14:14, 5 December 2020 (UTC)

The names in other languages are there, but the explanation was was long enough to justify turning it into a footnote. Click the "[a]" and "[b]" footnote references. Largoplazo (talk) 14:24, 5 December 2020 (UTC)

Well it shows up now. User839398293 (talk) 22:05, 17 January 2021 (UTC)

Featured article request

This article has many images to show the history, and it has many info and data about it. And I believe it has enough citations, so I could suggest you manufacture this article featured. - Joshua's Number9 (talk) 13:51, 16 March 2021 (UTC)

Percent of black people

Many sources claim at least 10 to 15% of Tunisia’s population are black. I think it should be reflected alongside the deep racism they face Nlivataye (talk) 09:26, 28 March 2021 (UTC)

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Autocoup?

Do you know if the recent political development in Tunisia has been described as an autocoup (self-coup, fr:auto-coup d'État)? (I ask, since events so described are listed in the self-coup article. I've understood that it is disputable whether Saied actually has acted within or passed the restrictions imposed by the constitution; but I'm not at present interested in whether or not this truly is an autocoup.) JoergenB (talk) 22:38, 22 October 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 16 February 2022

CHANGE "and considered the only fully democratic state in the Arab World in the Economist Intelligence Unit's Democracy Index." TO "It was rated a Hybrid Regime by the Economist Intellegence Unit's Democracy Index 2021" SOURCE "Democracy Index 2021: the China challenge". EIU.comCite error: There are <ref> tags on this page without content in them (see the help page).. Psand8 (talk) 14:12, 16 February 2022 (UTC)

 Done. Heartmusic678 (talk) 12:29, 2 March 2022 (UTC)

May 2022

@185.25.193.110: I don't know if you noticed, but your edit on "Judeo-Tunisian Arabic" has been reverted by Largoplazo. Since you restored it and added a source, maybe you would like to point out the part in that source that says "Judeo-Tunisian Arabic" is still spoken in Tunisia?

To address Largoplazo's concerns, it would also be good if you could tell us how many Tunisians speak it for it to warrant a mention (above other languages)?

Incidentally, why did you replace "Ottoman Tunisia" with "Monarchy"? M.Bitton (talk) 23:52, 22 May 2022 (UTC)

@185.25.193.110: (IPs cannot be pinged normally). (CC) Tbhotch™ 23:58, 22 May 2022 (UTC)

Islam percentage

I think it's time to really investigate and put figures that really reflect the ground; are you going to tell me that Tunisia the most secular and semi liberal Arab nation is 99% Muslim even when Saudi Arabia is at 93%? Come on there are obviously many non religious as well as Christians I thk the 99% is bogus at best Nlivataye (talk) 07:54, 8 October 2022 (UTC)

January 2023

It's a fact that French is omnipresent in Tunisia (literally used everywhere). The languages section of the article also explains its importance, yet تونس_للابد keeps removing it and comparing to English (a language that has neither a presence nor history in the country). M.Bitton (talk) 19:08, 28 January 2023 (UTC)

They also claim that English is widely spoken in Tunisia (which is factually incorrect). M.Bitton (talk) 19:12, 28 January 2023 (UTC)
English is indeed widely spoken, however mainly within the younger generation in bigger cities and towns. There is some truth to it, but it's still obviously not as popular as French, although this is currently changing. The gap between French and English used to be much wider decades ago. Servitas Vitae (talk) 21:39, 10 March 2023 (UTC)
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