Talk:Turkey/Archive 40

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Türkiye in the opening sentence

The article should mention the name "Türkiye" independently from the country's official name "Republic of Türkiye" in the opening sentence, which is the case with Ivory Coast and Cape Verde as other countries in a similar situation as Turkey. So, it should read Turkey or Türkiye, officially the Republic of Türkiye (Turkish: Türkiye Cumhuriyeti [ˈtyɾcije dʒumˈhuːɾijeti]), is a country... or Turkey, officially the Republic of Türkiye (Turkish: Türkiye Cumhuriyeti [ˈtyɾcije dʒumˈhuːɾijeti]), also known as Türkiye, is a country.... There are plenty of sources in the English language that use the name "Türkiye" (to begin with, see the UN, IMF and World Bank country directories).--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 13:33, 7 December 2023 (UTC)

I agree. This usage became more common in official organizations. Beshogur (talk) 15:59, 7 December 2023 (UTC)

Makes sense to me. Largoplazo (talk) 17:22, 7 December 2023 (UTC)

Potentially agree with this having personally seen it in travel ads, but it would be better to have sources that demonstrate normal English use as a name rather than 3 links which all simply reflect Turkish government statements. CMD (talk) 17:35, 7 December 2023 (UTC)

I don’t know what you mean exactly by “normal English use”, but there are news outlets and other websites that switched to Türkiye (see for instance this article on the OSCE website).--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 18:29, 7 December 2023 (UTC)

In my opinion, Turkey or Turkiye should be written. LionelCristiano (talk) 04:23, 8 December 2023 (UTC)

English letters must be used. LionelCristiano (talk) 04:23, 8 December 2023 (UTC)

It already says Republic of Türkiye. LionelCristiano (talk) 04:26, 8 December 2023 (UTC)

I was born in Argentina but I am Turkish. 🇹🇷❤️🇦🇷 LionelCristiano (talk) 04:30, 8 December 2023 (UTC)

English letters can include accent marks EvergreenFir (talk) 04:32, 8 December 2023 (UTC)

I believe that it should stay as it was before @Kiril Simeonovski's edit. Per @CMD's point, do we have sources that demonstrate it is widely used as a standalone name? Even then, do we have any specific guidelines telling that articles should follow this repetitive structure? Ideally, there should be a longer discussion on this, and Mr. Simeonovski should revert their edit per WP:BRD, because it was done 5 minutes after they started this thread on December 7, and even after this brief series of comments, I can't say there is a clear consensus. Not to mention that the initial edit overruled the comment in the sourcecode that explicitly states Do not change lead sentence to Türkiye per WP:COMMONNAME. Thanks. Aintabli (talk) 00:37, 12 December 2023 (UTC)

We do really want something better than a fourth multilateral institution. CMD (talk) 01:04, 12 December 2023 (UTC)

I don't think international organizations that Turkey is a member of are great bellwethers of common use. They have no reason not to accept the wishes of their member countries and are not particularly motivated to use terms that are understandable by wide audiences. I haven't looked into news media or independent academic usage since the last big RfC, but I'm not sure enough evidence has been shown that we should move away from the stable, concise compromise "Turkey, officially the Republic of Türkiye". Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 02:26, 12 December 2023 (UTC)

@Aintabli: My edit didn’t overrule anything, as I didn’t change “Turkey” to “Türkiye”, but just added the latter after the former, which still presents “Turkey” as the primary name. Firefangledfeathers, if the sources above aren’t compelling because they’re from organisations that the country is a member of, then there are sources that the European Union uses the new name, which Turkey is most definitely not a member of (see this report). There are research papers by non-Turkish authors that use the name “Türkiye” (see this). There are even non-Turkish news outlets that use “Türkiye” (see this). I don’t say the article should be renamed because “Turkey” is still the primary name in the English language, but there’s sufficient amount of sources that “Türkiye” is also used.--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 06:59, 12 December 2023 (UTC)

It's not about membership per se, the sources you gave are all from formal multilateral institutions which are simply going to reflect the Turkish government as a matter of course. Anything published by the EU or the IMF falls into a similar category. I don't know much about the Middle East Monitor, but it appears to be closer to the sort of source that shows ordinary usage. CMD (talk) 07:37, 12 December 2023 (UTC)

Agree. Middle East Monitor is a long way from ordinary English-language usage in the media. There's zero use of Türkiye in mainstream English language media. From personal experience I know there has been zero knowledge of the word amongst "ordinary" English-speakers. However, the first signs of that changing, I think, is people noticing it in Turkish-government tourism advertising. It will be interesting to see if that's the thing that changes usage in the end. DeCausa (talk) 07:51, 12 December 2023 (UTC)

It seems like the safest way to go when you don't like something is move the goal posts. At first, the international organisations used to be the main problem, but now a research paper and a London-based not-for-profit organisation are also problematic. To add some context, there's a disclaimer on the page of the paper that says IMF Working Papers describe research in progress by the author(s) and are published to elicit comments and to encourage debate. The views expressed in IMF Working Papers are those of the author(s) and do not necessarily represent the views of the IMF, its Executive Board, or IMF management., which clearly states that the paper doesn't represent the views of the IMF. Do we have any guidelines that international organisations cannot be used as reliable sources? What makes a source more reliable than other? The only thing that we have is this list, which doesn't mention any of the sources provided here as unreliable. If "Türkiye" were used in mainstream English-language media, that would make a strong case to rename the article (as we did with virtually all Ukrainian cities). There are even practical reasons why "Türkiye" should be used in the opening sentence. As the infobox uses the IMF as a source for the GDP data, a reader willing to vet the source would end up getting "Türkiye" instead of "Turkey".--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 08:30, 12 December 2023 (UTC)

As a Turk, I support @Kiril Simeonovski it should remain Turkey or Türkiye. Do not revert the change. LionelCristiano (talk) 10:29, 12 December 2023 (UTC)

No goal posts have been moved. Further, it's unclear why you are raising reliability and RS/P as they are not relevant to the question here. This is about assessing English language use, and trying to argue that an IMF-published paper demonstrates ordinary usage is not a productive avenue on that matter. CMD (talk) 11:37, 12 December 2023 (UTC)

1 "The word Türkiye represents and expresses the culture, civilisation, and values of the Turkish nation in the best way," Erdoğan said. How do u think about ? LionelCristiano (talk) 12:02, 12 December 2023 (UTC)

I think it is unrelated to MOS:LEADSENTENCE. CMD (talk) 12:21, 12 December 2023 (UTC)

I'm not sure about this. However, common name policy may apply, regardless of international concerns. I know that Turks love their country very much and how powerful the Turkish nationalism is, as LionelCristiano said. Kys5g ^talk! 04:50, 18 February 2024 (UTC)

@Chipmunkdavis: I provided reliable sources in the English language that clearly demonstrate the use of the name “Türkiye” as an alternative to "Turkey" (they don't make up majority, which is why "Turkey" should remain the primary name, but they most definitely exist). Sources reflecting Turkish government statements? This is a made-up criterion that goes even against our naming conventions. WP:WIAN lists the The World Factbook, which evidently uses both names in its country's directory, as an example of disinterested and authoritative reliable reference work.--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 12:28, 12 December 2023 (UTC)

Contrary to being made up, it's the exact spirit behind WP:COMMONNAME. The sources you listed were all from multilateral institutions and other official bodies that are going to simply adopt the official government name. If we can't find examples of usage that is not determined by a bureaucratic application of politically correct terminology, it is unlikely that the names reach the 10%ish usage point of potential inclusion in the article. CMD (talk) 12:40, 12 December 2023 (UTC)

WP:COMMONNAME is irrelevant here as it explains which name should be preferred as primary. If “Türkiye” were the common name, the article would need to be renamed, but it’s not the case. I’m wondering why WP:WIAN lists the The World Factbook as an example if it makes a “bureaucratic application of politically correct terminology”.--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 12:47, 12 December 2023 (UTC)

That's a good question for WIAN, it clearly doesn't fit there. CMD (talk) 13:00, 12 December 2023 (UTC)

@Aintabli: My edit didn’t overrule anything, as I didn’t change “Turkey” to “Türkiye”, but just added the latter after the former, which still presents “Turkey” as the primary name. Firefangledfeathers, if the sources above aren’t compelling because they’re from organisations that the country is a member of, then there are sources that the European Union uses the new name, which Turkey is most definitely not a member of. There are research papers by non-Turkish authors that use the name “Türkiye”. I don’t say the article should be renamed because “Turkey” is still the primary name in the English language, but there’s sufficient amount of sources that “Türkiye” is also used. If you ask all Turks in the world, I am sure that everyone will support this view. LionelCristiano (talk) 11:30, 12 December 2023 (UTC)

I've revereted this. There's no consensus for it. It's also a pointless change - or already references it in the "official name". DeCausa (talk) 14:18, 12 December 2023 (UTC)

What you did is not right. LionelCristiano (talk) 14:32, 12 December 2023 (UTC)

If you ask all Turks in the world, I am sure that everyone will support this view. Ironic. Aintabli (talk) 15:18, 12 December 2023 (UTC)

Even if it is not important for u, it is an important change for me. LionelCristiano (talk) 15:29, 12 December 2023 (UTC)

Personalizing changes is not suitable for Wikipedia. Aintabli (talk) 18:26, 12 December 2023 (UTC)

@DeCausa: I'm surprised that you reverted this as an involved party in the discussion. You expressed your opinion that it should be removed, which is fine, but an involved editor isn't entitled to judge whether there's consensus or not. It should be done by an uninvolved editor per WP:CONSENSUS.--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 16:18, 12 December 2023 (UTC)

I'm surprised at 12k edits you have such a basic misunderstanding. That's not how WP:CONSENSUS works - this isn't an RfC. You, on the other hand, should be following WP:BRD: restore your edit only once there is a consensus for it, which clealrly there isn't yet. DeCausa (talk) 18:24, 12 December 2023 (UTC)

Don’t worry. I understand all that’s needed. WP:CONSENSUS doesn’t apply to RfCs only, but to all discussions that involve consensus-building. I’ve correctly followed it hundreds of times in ITN discussions in a time-span of more than twelve years. As for WP:BRD, I’d gladly apply it if any of you opposing the addition of “Türkiye” to the article pointed out to a clear guideline/rule to support your arguments. Instead, one editor incorrectly argued that my edit had violated the comment in the source code of changing “Turkey” to “Türkiye”, and another one misapplied and misinterpreted WP:COMMONNAME. Moreover, there’s the The World Factbook, which uses both names, as an example of an authoritative reference work for modern country names at WP:WIAN. But fair enough, I can live with it. It’s not the worst thing I’ve ever seen on Wikipedia.--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 20:14, 12 December 2023 (UTC)

Of course WP:CONSENSUS applies. But nowhere does it say that consensus has to be determined by an uninvolved editor. That's ridiculous. Almost all talk page discussions are concluded without an uninvolved editor determining consensus. If there's a dispute about consensus then one of the formal dispute resolution processes can be invoked and an uninvolved editor then may take up that role then. As far as supporting arguments why your edit is incorrect - that's set out below. DeCausa (talk) 20:28, 12 December 2023 (UTC)

WP:CONSENSUS#By soliciting outside opinions states When talk page discussions fail—generally because two editors (or two groups of editors) simply cannot see eye to eye on an issue—Wikipedia has several established processes to attract outside editors to offer opinions. This is often useful to break simple, good-faith deadlocks, because editors uninvolved in the discussion can bring in fresh perspectives, and can help involved editors see middle ground that they cannot see for themselves.. It’s as clear as day.--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 20:37, 12 December 2023 (UTC)

That's exactly what I just said!! But no one has done that so that's why your edit summary here is just plain wrong. DeCausa (talk) 21:21, 12 December 2023 (UTC)

After making wrong claims about WP:CONSENSUS and eventually admitting they were wrong, now you’re digging yourself in a hole even deeper. My edit you’re referring to simply undid a revert made by you as an involved editor at time when you were trying to contest my original edit, which was accepted and uncontested for almost five days. Now that you want to revert it, you need to build consensus, which would be fleshed out and confirmed by an uninvolved party. But never mind, I didn’t bring your second revert back as I didn’t want to engage in edit-warring with you. It’d be totally unproductive and time-consuming.--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 22:46, 12 December 2023 (UTC)

I can live with you gaslighting your way out of that bizarre edit summary. DeCausa (talk) 23:03, 12 December 2023 (UTC)

Below is a list of independent sources using the name "Türkiye" from a quick superficial search:

• Tech.eu: [1], [2], [3] (earlier this year used "Turkey" as in [4], but then switched to "Türkiye")
• AzerNews: [5], [6], [7], [8]
• Xinhua: [9], [10], [11], [12], [13]

I can certainly found much more if I make a more thorough search, but these should be enough to prove that the name "Türkiye" is indeed used in the English language as an alternative name.--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 16:41, 12 December 2023 (UTC)

Can you find just one mainstream English-language media outlet (none of which the above are) that uses Türkiye? None of BBC, CNN, the American or Canadian TV networks and none of the major newspapers in the those countries do. DeCausa (talk) 18:27, 12 December 2023 (UTC)

DeCausa's source experience matches my own. I'll add that there's some guidance for us at WP:PLACE#Alternative names, which suggests that we include names "used significantly often (say, 10% of the time or more) in the available English literature on a place, past or present". Firefangledfeathers (talk / contribs) 18:59, 12 December 2023 (UTC)

I don’t know when did the mainstream English-language media outlets start to dictate the use of names in the English language. At the very least, they didn’t prevent the use of or weren’t taken into account at all when adding “Cabo Verde” and “Timor-Leste” to Cape Verde and East Timor, respectively, when it’s obvious that none of those media outlets have ever used any of the alternative names. Firefangledfeathers, it’s good to introduce more detailed guidance on this, but first we need to get rid of the double standards.--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 20:33, 12 December 2023 (UTC)

The BBC, The New York Times, CNN and The Guardian are major English-language WP:RS. Xinhua, AzerNews and Tech.eu (sorry the last two are so non-notable I can't even wikilink) are not. DeCausa (talk) 20:42, 12 December 2023 (UTC)

It’s undeniably true that they’re mainstream English-language reliable sources, but they cannot simply annul the use by other reliable sources (or sources that aren’t blacklisted or deemed unreliable on Wikipedia). None of the less-known English-language sources presented earlier in this discussion are considered unreliable. If the official newspaper of the British Royal Navy uses the name, then nothing can deny that it’s really used in the English language. Either it’s used or not—it’s simple as that.--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 21:16, 12 December 2023 (UTC)

Don't say that mainstream English-language media don't use Timor Leste. They definitely do, although still quite below the threshold to justify a page move (see the last move discussion). –Austronesier (talk) 20:46, 12 December 2023 (UTC)

Hi @DeCausa, here are articles from the Australian Broadcasting Company and the Special Broadcasting Service of Australia indicating the switch to Turkiye

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-12-18/king-approves-turkish-airways-expansion-after-qatar-rejection/103243376

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-09-08/around-150-people-working-to-save-man-stuck-in-turkiye-cave/102834634

https://www.abc.net.au/listen/programs/passenger/passenger-turkiye/102544494

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-05-16/turkiye-election-board-head-confirms-run-off-to-be-held-may-28/102349646

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-05-28/turkiye-great-lakes-are-drying-up/102366986

https://www.sbs.com.au/news/article/australias-facebook-gangster-hakan-ayik-arrested-in-turkiye-after-decade-on-the-run/1ynsijjd2

https://www.sbs.com.au/news/article/recep-tayyip-erdogan-facing-runoff-in-turkiyes-presidential-election/73ngwwgji

https://www.sbs.com.au/language/turkish/en/article/euro-visions-battling-it-out-in-turkiyes-elections/59xy8lzbn

https://www.sbs.com.au/news/article/is-turkey-safe-to-travel-to-right-now-here-is-the-latest-advice-for-australians/0rivn575z

The ABC and SBS are the National Broadcasters of Australia.

This is from CNA, which is the national news broadcaster for Singapore

https://www.channelnewsasia.com/world/turkiye-will-no-longer-send-imams-german-mosques-german-ministry-3989306

https://www.channelnewsasia.com/world/turkiye-condemns-israel-jenin-raid-calls-accountability-3991211

https://www.channelnewsasia.com/world/turkiyes-erdogan-rejects-us-pressure-cut-hamas-ties-3961421

https://www.channelnewsasia.com/world/more-100-gaza-evacuees-patients-arrive-turkiye-israel-hamas-war-3933721

I don't think the article should be renamed since Turkey is obviously used way more often, but I think there is enough evidence that Turkiye is being used in the English speaking world as an accepted alternative based on my sources and the national broadcasters of two countries where English is the official language. 101.173.197.213 (talk) 19:25, 18 December 2023 (UTC)

yes, I had recently noticed ABC's policy (I don't think the other links are notable). It's an interesting development and even more interesting if they keep with the policy. Their position is explained here. They acknowledge that they are an outlier - will they persevere as a pioneer that others will join or will they return to the fold as a failed experiment? Time will tell. At the moment it's more of an exception that proves the rule. @Austronesier: that ABC source might be something for your query on English-speakers pronunciation of Türkiye. DeCausa (talk) 21:42, 18 December 2023 (UTC)

I think it's hard to argue that the national broadcaster of Singapore isn't notable. Yeah it's probably not equivalent to the NYT, Guardian etc are but it's still the national english language broadcaster of 5 million people.

I will accept that the SBS is probably just following ABC's guidelines (even though they are technically separate).

I can accept the exception to the rule argument for now, but I think it will just be time until most of Australia follows it and then most of New Zealand too. 101.173.197.213 (talk) 00:45, 19 December 2023 (UTC)

@DeCausa A valid counter to CNA's Turkiye's usage is that the Staits Times (newspaper of record for Singapore) still uses Turkey so it seems that even Singapore isn't fully converted yet: https://www.straitstimes.com/tags/turkey

So given a lack of abundance of usage outside Turkey by mainstream publications except the ABC/SBS, I am inclined to agree with the view that we should wait until some other mainstream papers adopt the spelling. 101.173.197.213 (talk) 03:03, 19 December 2023 (UTC)

Just to prepare for the case that we get consensus to add Türkiye as an alternative name: what's the English IPA transcription for this purportedly more than just perfunctorily used name? Even though we shouldn't base it on OR, I'm curious to hear what non-Turkish-speaking news readers currently produce when saying Türkiye in English-language broadcasts. I've tried to find something on YouTube, but with no success. –Austronesier (talk) 20:43, 12 December 2023 (UTC)

Since it’s an endonym introduced in the English language, it should keep the original pronounciation and be /ˈtyɾcije/.--Kiril Simeonovski (talk) 07:14, 13 December 2023 (UTC)

That would not work; endonyms, even if they keep their spelling the same and pronunciation as similar as is possible, generally do not retain the same phonological features in the target language.

I'm not discussing the change itself (which I don't have time to delve into), but @Austronesier raises a good point; do we have any established pronunciation of Türkiye in English that monolingual English speakers can actually produce?

Beyond [y] being problematic (although not impossible), I've never seen a monolingual English speaker (outside of the few English-speaking regions that use it, and even then) pronounce the Turkish [ɾ] in a 'standard' fashion. This is especially due to the rather unusual Turkish realization of this sound; oftentimes full contact is not made, leading to [ɾ̞̊]. Attempts by English speakers to create this sound usually yield [ɹ] (an approximant, which is dialect in Turkish as [ɹ̠], not as any of the common realizations in English) or [r] (a trill, which is even rarer). Uness232 (talk) 16:10, 13 December 2023 (UTC)

It will be an interesting exercise to see if anyone can find a video or audio clip of an English-language native speaker newsreader (ie.e not TRT World etc) using "Türkiye" as a matter of course in place of or even with "Turkey" in an English-language broadcast. Just a guess, but I think if Türkiye is ever adopted in English (a very big if) it will be adopted in print but not in the spoken language - rather like Paris v. Paree i.e. it will be pronounced "Turkey". DeCausa (talk) 21:36, 13 December 2023 (UTC)

At least it should be written this way to be understood

Turkey, officially the Republic of Turkey (Turkish: Türkiye Cumhuriyeti) LionelCristiano (talk) 13:12, 13 December 2023 (UTC)

No it should not. This had been discussed several times. Beshogur (talk) 13:34, 13 December 2023 (UTC)

Let it be discussed again. LionelCristiano (talk) 13:41, 13 December 2023 (UTC)

Yeah no. Beshogur (talk) 15:09, 13 December 2023 (UTC)

@Beshogur Türkiye is not an English word, and this is the English version of Wikipedia. As simple as that. We say Federal Republic of Germany, not Federal Republic of Deutschland. Those few institutions and media that have switched (the word itself shows the artificiality of the use), have done so for political reasons, which should not influence the neutrality and objectivity of an encyclopedia. Melitensis77 (talk) 21:32, 17 January 2024 (UTC)

We have thousands of articles whose titles are not English words let alone merely adding it in the lead sentence. Cabo San Lucas, Nara (city), Haleʻiwa, Hawaii, Champs-Élysées, Nunavut to name a few. Accent marks are not an issue. EvergreenFir (talk) 21:38, 17 January 2024 (UTC)

Indeed they are not. Pandering to the Turkish government's will is. Melitensis77 (talk) 21:58, 17 January 2024 (UTC)

Please do not waste people's time here. This had been discussed dozens of times. Beshogur (talk) 00:47, 18 January 2024 (UTC)

@Beshogur I'm afraid it is not just your opinion which can be voiced here, unacceptable and outrageous that your 'argument' is to shut people up. Melitensis77 (talk) 12:33, 19 January 2024 (UTC)

It is not my opinion. We discussed this hundreds of times and there was a consensus about. Beshogur (talk) 15:34, 19 January 2024 (UTC)

That is not a valid reason to refrain from adding this name. We describe phenomena, disputes, changes, etc. neutrally. Just as having Armenian genocide as an article title is not a defiance to the Turkish government, neither is including Türkiye pandering to the Turkish government. EvergreenFir (talk) 20:09, 18 January 2024 (UTC)

@EvergreenFir Including 'Türkiye' in an English sentence, when there already is an English word, Turkey, is indeed pandering to the wishes of Erdogan. It is indeed bowing to that government. Other languages, if not all most, have simply ignored that absurd demand of the Turkish government to start calling it how they want, because they don't like the poultryesque name in English. So, indeed the debate is closed. Turkey is the only name in English for that country, anything else is pandering or worse. Melitensis77 (talk) 12:38, 19 January 2024 (UTC)

Our job here is not to specifically oppose or contradict the wishes of any government, the same way that it is not to validate the wishes of any. If it is 'bowing' to a government to merely include information about its preferred official name, then 'bow' we shall. At least that's what the current consensus is; you would need to convince a lot more people for that to change. Uness232 (talk) 19:09, 19 January 2024 (UTC)

@Uness232: The article does, indeed, include information about the current Turkish government's preferred official name in a foreign language: one third of Turkey#Name is given over to this two-year-old idea, as much as is written on nearly one thousand years of history about the English name "Turkey", or "Turkeye" as Chaucer wrote it. Bazza (talk) 19:49, 19 January 2024 (UTC)

Sure, but I do not see how that is relevant to the lede. If there is a WP:DUE problem in that section, that can readily be resolved by summarizing, trimming, etc. Uness232 (talk) 21:06, 19 January 2024 (UTC)

"So, indeed the debate is closed" ... you do not get to unilaterally decide this, especially if your reason is that you don't like what you perceive as kowtowing to Erdogan. EvergreenFir (talk) 21:03, 19 January 2024 (UTC)

@EvergreenFir: I'm pretty sure we had a consensus on this. "Türkiye is not English!!!" is not an argument. All official organizations (UN/NATO/EU/FIFA/whatever) uses Türkiye. Thus "Republic of Turkey" is not the official name anymore. There was a user claiming something like "countries can not have official name". That's a bad reasoning as well. Countries indeed have an official name. Beshogur (talk) 21:43, 19 January 2024 (UTC)

Those are the names that are used for those places in English discourse. "Türkiye" generally is not. Largoplazo (talk) 23:03, 18 January 2024 (UTC)

The Republic of Türkiye changed its official name from The Republic of Turkey on 26 May 2022 in a request submitted to the Secretary-General by the country's Minister of Foreign Affairs.[14] "Republic of Turkey" is nowhere used anymore. I can't believe people still insisting this without checking previous discussions in archive. Another example is Republic of Côte d'Ivoire. "It's not English" is the worst argument I've heard. Please stop this nonsense. Beshogur (talk) 20:55, 19 January 2024 (UTC)

• Support: "Turkey, officially the Republic of Turkey (Turkish: Türkiye Cumhuriyeti)". This conforms best to with Wikipedia guidelines. Per above, these are the names that are used in English, "Türkiye" generally is not used.  // Timothy :: talk  22:38, 19 January 2024 (UTC)

  @TimothyBlue: which "Wikipedia guidelines"? Beshogur (talk) 22:55, 19 January 2024 (UTC)

  Id like to point out that back in 2022 the UN officially recognized turkeys official name change to Türkiye Space772 (talk) 18:05, 12 February 2024 (UTC)

  It changed it's official English name to Türkiye Space772 (talk) 18:08, 12 February 2024 (UTC)

• Support: "Turkey, officially the Republic of Türkiye (Turkish: Türkiye Cumhuriyeti)". LionelCristiano (talk) 10:03, 21 January 2024 (UTC)

  This resource explains it all. 1 -LionelCristiano (talk) 10:06, 21 January 2024 (UTC)

  “Republic of Türkiye” should be used in formal and diplomatic contexts. LionelCristiano (talk) 10:44, 21 January 2024 (UTC)

  @LionelCristiano It is curious how this nonsense is not being done in other important languages, such as Spanish, German, French, Italian... On their articles the official name is given fully in the respective language. No matter what a clique in the English Wikipedia (who I'm starting to doubt have English as their mother tongue) decide here, they do not get to decide what the English language should be, at this point I have to say obeying Erdogan. The United Nations is a joke that includes dictatorships that can influence decisions. So go right ahead, dear clique, and mess up the English version of Wikipedia. Melitensis77 (talk) 23:12, 12 February 2024 (UTC)

  How can French speaking people call their country "Republic of Côte d'Ivoire" in English, how dare they(!) Beshogur (talk) 12:35, 13 February 2024 (UTC)

I was drawn here by seeing "Türkiye" on a travel ad, after battling with some over-enthusiastic Turkish patriots over some aviation articles. In the UK, the BBC still use "Turkey", as does gov.uk. The US Department of State at least has the courtesy to use "Turkey (Türkiye)", and according to the BBC the UN has adopted "Türkiye." We are clearly in a state of transition and Wikipedia will have to judge its moment to make its move. That will be governed by a consensus, probably here, to do so. That consensus has not yet emerged. Have patience, my Turkish colleagues, I am sure it will in due course. — Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 17:37, 24 February 2024 (UTC)

How to improve the 4th paragraph of the lead?

I suspect we all agree that it could be improved - anyone disagree?

I have an idea but perhaps you would like to put yours first? Chidgk1 (talk) 15:29, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

OK then I will start: remove “ currently ranks 17th-largest in the world by nominal GDP and 11th-largest by PPP” as not very useful to the reader and that info is in the infobox anyway. If necessary we can say “middle income country” as that is shorter. Chidgk1 (talk) 16:51, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

Turkey is a newly industrialized country, and a founding member of the OECD and G20; its economy currently ranks 17th-largest in the world by nominal GDP and 11th-largest by PPP. With a geopolitically significant location, Turkey is a regional power and an early member of NATO. Turkey joined the EU Customs Union in 1995, and started accession negotiations with the European Union in 2005; it is also Turkey is a member of the Council of Europe, Organization of Islamic Cooperation OIC, TURKSOY, and Organization of Turkic States. Home to 21 UNESCO World Heritage Sites, Turkey is the fourth most visited country in the world.

There are small fix suggestions for now. I will add to it later. Youprayteas (t • c) 16:52, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

I'll be working on it this week or next week. Bogazicili (talk) 17:19, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

If you all think that culture deserves half a dozen words in the lead how about “Some Turks drink raki, others only ayran.” Chidgk1 (talk) 16:10, 21 February 2024 (UTC)

You are being sarcastic I suppose. Youprayteas (t • c) 18:31, 21 February 2024 (UTC)

I was attempting both deep and amusing in that raki and ayran symbolise a certain polarisation of culture. Hopefully you or someone else has a better idea? Or perhaps you think culture is not important enough to mention in the lead? Chidgk1 (talk) 17:15, 25 February 2024 (UTC)

Thanks. At the moment there is nothing in the lead on the environment. If allowed only 3 words I think “Precipitation is decreasing” or “Snowfall is decreasing” is the most important thing. But if allowed more words you can no doubt write about the environment more readably and with better flow connecting to the other text. Chidgk1 (talk) 06:47, 21 February 2024 (UTC)

I think the lead should say a little about 21st century government and politics - do you agree? How about “Turkey is a flawed democracy with most power wielded by the president.” which is 12 words? Chidgk1 (talk) 07:06, 21 February 2024 (UTC)

Sounds nice Youprayteas (t • c) 12:48, 21 February 2024 (UTC)

No, too wordy and not neutral enough. "Turkey is a presidential republic" or "Officially, Turkey is a presidential republic" is enough. Then you can get into details in the subsection. Bogazicili (talk) 21:58, 21 February 2024 (UTC)

@Bogazicili@Youprayteas and anyone - thoughts on my suggestion for the environment above? Chidgk1 (talk) 17:19, 25 February 2024 (UTC)

I think yes, culture should be mentioned, since the history is 50 percent of the lead. Kebab should definetly be mentioned too in my opinion as it symbolizes Turkey in some way (even though there are way better tasting Turkish foods in my opinion). I also think it should mention touristic sites such as Cappadocia and Pamukkale. Youprayteas (t • c) 17:23, 25 February 2024 (UTC)

Nooooo -please no kebab stereotype! Chidgk1 (talk) 17:28, 25 February 2024 (UTC)

Are you Turkish by the way? It seems your Userpage says you are a native English speaker but you seem to be knowledged about Turkey. Youprayteas (t • c) 17:30, 25 February 2024 (UTC)

I will reply on your user talk unless being Turkish or not is relevant to this discussion Chidgk1 (talk) 17:33, 25 February 2024 (UTC)

It is not, and yes, sorry, that would be more appropriate of me to bring it to talk page. Youprayteas (t • c) 17:40, 25 February 2024 (UTC)

So we have over 250 words about history and prehistory but 12 words on politics and government is too many? I would like to hear other editors opinions on such a word imbalance Chidgk1 (talk) 17:31, 25 February 2024 (UTC)

I agree with you on this. Youprayteas (t • c) 17:32, 25 February 2024 (UTC)

I'll take a look at this tomorrow. Bogazicili (talk) 00:14, 26 February 2024 (UTC)

So I went over the 3rd paragraph in the lead today. I know the word count didn't change much, but significant information was missing. I'll go over first two paragraphs tomorrow.

For the Government and politics section, these parts also count: With a geopolitically significant location, Turkey is a regional power[32] and an early member of NATO. Turkey joined the EU Customs Union in 1995, and started accession negotiations with the European Union in 2005; it is also a member of the Council of Europe, Organization of Islamic Cooperation, TURKSOY, and Organization of Turkic States.

I think we should just say "Turkey is a unitary presidential republic with a multi-party system". For “Precipitation is decreasing”, I was thinking of saying "highly vulnerable to climate chane"? Bogazicili (talk) 21:53, 26 February 2024 (UTC)

You are right with the green text that geopolitics is covered somewhat although perhaps it would be useful for geopolitics to specifically mention “Russia” and “Middle East” and reduce European Union to one mention. I think ‘it is also ……’ should be removed as those organisations are less significant to Turkey than Russia and the Middle East.

Re govt the infobox already says “Unitary presidential constitutional republic” so your suggestion does not add much to that. However I looked at the lead of India as you mentioned it is featured, and it does not mention any flaws in their democracy.

I think everyone reading this discussion should take a look at the 4th para of India as it is rather good I think so we could steal some ideas from there. Chidgk1 (talk) 19:17, 27 February 2024 (UTC)

Prod me if I don’t come up with anything about environment in next couple of days - I should look at India and ponder but I might forget Chidgk1 (talk) 19:36, 27 February 2024 (UTC)

How about "Russia supplies much of Turkey's energy" Chidgk1 (talk) 19:55, 27 February 2024 (UTC)

I think I'm finally done with first 3 paragraphs. It took a surprisingly long amount of time. The lead is currently 488 words, so we can maybe add something like 40 words to the last paragraph. We can also trim the large EU sentence. This is above Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Lead_section#Length recommendations, but I believe it should be fine. It's far below India. Bogazicili (talk) 21:11, 28 February 2024 (UTC)

I think I'm done with the lead. Currently has 545 words. Chidgk1, "It is a unitary presidential republic with a multi-party system" is repeating the infobox a bit, but I checked several countries and they also have information repeating the infobox. I believe it's the most concise way to describe the government. Youprayteas, I didn't add kebap, but I did add something about the overall cuisine. Bogazicili (talk) 17:52, 2 March 2024 (UTC)

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