Talk:U.S. state/Archive 1

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Untitled

Talk that was formerly here has been incorporated into WikiProject U.S. states.

Someone suggested: The list of U.S. States could be usefully rendered in table form.

Division of Texas

The District of Columbia is also one of the political subdivisions of the United States. I also read somewhere that the Texas dividing into 5 other states is an urban legend, but I can't find it right this second. -- Zoe

  • Sorry for a delayed answer, but I just recently noted your comment. The treaty negotiated between Texas and U.S wasn't ratified by U.S., further negotiations produced a congressional Joint Res (JR) in 1844 that supported Texas admission and had the 5 states (actually 4 additional) comment. The pre-admission Texas legislature passed a word for word identical resolution in July, 1844. BUT, when Texas was admitted again after the civil war the whole issue was dropped. Today it would take a building full of lawyers to write briefs on both sides of the can Texas unilateraly subdivide issue. Besides, except for a radical fringe, we don't want to.- Lou I 17:34 25 May 2003 (UTC)
    • I belive the "Texas can subdivide" issue related the entry of Texas into the Union: The treaty mentioned above merely meant that the Republic of Texas could, if it wanted, enter the Union as up to 5 states instead of one. But once it actually entered the Union as one state, this provision of the treaty was no longer meaningfull. Incidentally, the Constitution says that a state legislature can vote to split a state up, though Congress would have to approve the admission of each new state. This has happened once, in the case of West Virginia, though that situation was a bit dodgy. --jfruh
      • Several clarifications: 1) Texas was not admitted to the Union by a treaty. The initial proposed treaty was rejected by the U.S. Senate. Congress subsequently passed a joint resolution inviting Texas to join the Union (the same method used to admit every state after the original 13). That resolution specifically stated that, once Texas became a state, new states could be created out of it. (The text of the resolution can be seen here, as part of ordinance passed by the Texas constitutional convention.) However, the resolution is ambiguous as to who (i.e., the federal government or Texas) could initiate the division. 2) Your statement about the creation of new states from existing is correct, but incomplete. Maine was originally part of Massachusetts, but was admitted to the Union in 1820 with the approval of the Massachusetts state legislature and Congress. In contrast to the West Virginia situation, the admission of Maine was unquestionably constitutional. Mateo SA | talk 02:25, May 26, 2005 (UTC)
        • I believe Texas already has divided itsself up into 5 states. When Texas first entered the US, its borders extended well into Colorado. So, You could say that, Colorado, New Mexico, Wyoming, and Oklahoma are the 4 states split off from Texas. I suspect this is not what people had wanted but its true. Magnum Serpentine 3-9-6
          • Not quite. While the Republic of Texas was significantly larger than the state of Texas, it contributed only relatively small portions of NM, CO, and OK, and no part of WY at all. --67.165.6.76 01:29, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
          • If you look carefully at some old maps, they show that a large part of western Kansas was once part of the Republic of Texas. Thus, from this point-of-view, the lands of the Republic of Texas, was contributed the states of Texas, N.M., Kansas, Oklahoma, and Colorado - thus, the Republis of Texas was divided up into five states, and the agreement that Texas had with the United States said that this was the maximum number.72.146.43.188 (talk) 21:35, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

I added the stuff about "There is a saying in Texas." That sentiment is true. Therefore, discussion of the minutia is pointless, since the provision will never be invoked. RickReinckens 07:39, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

Uh....If Texas divided into 5 states there would be 54 states not 55 as the article said. Texas would count as ONE and the other 4 would've brought the total to 54. Someone counted wrong. Texas+49+4==54 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.160.51.32 (talk) 07:01, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

Let me add that this whole business about Texas being able to be divided is unequivocally false and has no place in Wikipedia except perhaps on a page about political legends. The esteemed, handsome and nearly brainless governor of Texas, Mr. Rick Perry, repeated this falsehood during the brouhaha leading up to the "Tea Parties" in early 2009, and a number of news sources checked his facts and found no evidence that it was any more than a rumor. 67.9.148.203 (talk) 16:42, 30 September 2009 (UTC) Eric

Capitalization of first letter

Shouldn't the first letter of "state" in this context be capitalized to distinguish it from state? --Jiang 07:41 30 Jun 2003 (UTC)

No. It is not a proper noun. Capitalization is non-standard as a means of differentiating common nouns. --Tysto 22:26, 23 December 2005 (UTC)
I disagree. Per WP:ENGVAR, "strong national ties" are a reason for using a particular language convention, and convention in the United States is to capitalize the word State. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Mbarbier (talk • contribs) 18:32, 20 February 2009 (UTC)
Er... it is? The only time I can think of it being capitalized is in a formal context ("State of Hawaii") or to disambiguate ("Washington State"). Also, you responded to a 3 year old comment. :) --Golbez (talk) 20:34, 20 February 2009 (UTC)

Iraq

Er... Iraq is now a U.S. colony? I gotta turn on the news more often... -- Wapcaplet 19:42 13 Jul 2003 (UTC)

I looked around and couldn't find any corroborating evidence on this; there's some speculation that the Bush administration may want to turn Iraq into a colony. Looks like Mav already reverted it. -- Wapcaplet 19:53 13 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Is the formal status that Iraq is still an "occupied territory" that is being "administered" by the US-led coalition? Or something else? Martin

I errored the US is the "occupying power" not "colonial power" over Iraq. PeterK

so in the 70s, was all of latin america also part of the 50 states?, since they were all dictatorships supported and/or started by the United States. Should Peru be included here?. Should Nigeria, whos got enough oil to be a world super power (YET, it is all on the hands of american corporations), be placed here?. I think its the first time in history that a hegemony has crossed all the 5 continents.

Secession

It is the widely held perception that the American Civil War determined that it could not [secede], though a good number of states' rights supporters assert that the American Civil War was conducted illegally or was not a definitive precedent.

I removed everything after "it could not". The secession of a U.S. State is not a serious proposition and its possibility is considered only by a handful of wackos and perhaps a handful of academics with no grasp on reality. User:Tempshill

It didn't used to be such. The South is not the only area that ever wanted to secede. --Golbez 07:07, Sep 16, 2004 (UTC)
Tempshill, you obviously don't know your history. THE issue of the Civil War was whether states had the right to secede. As the article says, the Constitution is silent on that.
What happened was that the North was mainly politically liberal, with New England engaged mainly in whaling, etc., the middle states engaged in light manufacturing, etc., and the South was conservative and agricultural. The same liberal versus conservative arguments that rage today raged then. Basically, politically conservative Southerners who wanted small local government got sick of Northerners trying to tell them what to do and insisting on big central government. (And though I live in Dallas I was raised on Long Island and I consider myself "moderate".) The Southerners decided, "Eighty-some years ago our forefathers came together as the United States. We did not agree to that. Now that we are seeing where this is going, we want out." The Northerners said, "You can't leave. The Constitution doesn't say you can leave." The response of the Southerners was, "It doesn't say we can't leave." When that was ignored, someone took up arms.
Shelby Foote, noted Civil War historian, has pointed out that before the Civil War people said, "The United States are . . ." but after we say, "The United States is." People, at least Southerners, considered themselves, "a Virginian", or a "Texan", not an "American", in the sense we think of it today, where, e.g., a Bostonian kidnapped overseas and who has never been west of the Mississippi could be returned to California and feel, "I'm home."
RickReinckens 08:01, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

The constitution spells out a procedure for admitting a new state, and even for changing the boundaries between existing states. It says nothing about secession: the strong implication is that once a state joins the union, it joins forever. There is no constitutional procedure for secession. (I might also add that what happened in the Civil War was totally unconstitutional, when several states founded their own confederate government, made treaties with foreign powers and fought a war against the union. Those last three things are all expressly forbidden.) As a practical matter, if one or more states wanted to secede and the other states were willing to let them leave, some way would undoubtedly be found to make that a reality. A few territories, most noteably the Philipines, have left the union peacefully, so there is some precedent which could be followed. Timothy Horrigan (talk) 13:19, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

Spanish origin of name of California

Two references to back up the assertion that the name California is Spanish in origin: [1] [2]

Both were found during aprox. 60 min. of web search, no other corroborating (sp?) or conflicting referrences were found. What they state is that California was named after the mythical paradise called Califia found in the book Las Sergas de Esplandián by Garcia Ordóñez de Montalvo written c. 1510.

Ducker 08:41, 25 Sep 2003 (UTC)

Map scale

Where could I find a map of the United States where Alaska is to the same scale? I'l like to make a map for the Alaska page that has Alaska overlayed on the contenental U.S. to give a sense of scale. User:63.231.59.63

The map is distorted: If Alaska is to scale, it would be almost as large as the contigious 48 states. Is there a more accurate map available? User:67.168.16.202

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Alaska_over_49.PNG --67.165.6.76 01:33, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

State mottos

I want to add a state mottos in Latin, but with all of my respect I will not do it alone, without discuss. So, How and Where I must add them...Alabama- Audemus iura nostra defendere - We dare defend our rights, Arizona- Ditat Deus - God enriches...etc. --Egon 14:14, 12 Dec 2003 (UTC)

  • State mottos are part of the details for each state. And, altho I personally dislike lists, others would judge this appropriate for List of U.S. state mottos, which already exists. --Tysto 22:36, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

Regions

I know that I'm probably going to get yelled at but the United States actually does have "official" regions. They are the four regions that are used by the Census Bureau; Northeast, Midwest, West, and South. If we used these regions we could get regional information directly from the census bureau. Using this system may also put some of the "controversy" to rest over which state is listed in which region since this is how the Federal Government groups them. I know that several encyclopedias still use these regions, but the borders and members of the Southwest and Mid Atlantic are nebulous at best, are often gerrymandered, and vary from book to book. You can see how the Census Bureau divides the US at http://www.census.gov/geo/www/us_regdiv.pdf. I don't want to delete the other regions but these should take precedence over them. The regions are more cosmopolitan culturally and therefore less likely to have one culture dominate another. Please post on my talk page, or here. As of December 22, I received permission from Sfmontyo to convert us_regions.gif to the Census Bureau Model. Since this is a somewhat controversial topic I wanted to discuss it before I started any changes. I would appreciate any help resolving this issue. --JCarriker December 22, 2003

I have a comment - leave the biological references alone! When you alter Fouquieria to say American West, that implies the plants might be found in Washington state, which is completely misleading. When describing American Southwest, it's important to say that it's not an official census region, and to describe the range of interpretations (Arizona is always in, Utah maybe or maybe not). The concept of the Southwest is very familiar even if its borders are not, and WP performs a useful service by carefully describing the distinction. Stan 14:48, 23 Dec 2003 (UTC)
JCarriker,
I realize what you're trying to do with changing the regions of the US to match the government's... but I think that some discussion is warranted before obliterating all references to the Southwest, Mid-Atlantic, etc. While the government may break up the country in that way, the majority of the population uses Southwest, Mid-Atlantic, etc. You would be changing the meanings of many articles if you changed those references (like you did in the Dallas and DART articles), and going against years of historical use and generally accepted terms and customs.
I would suggest that you make a different map of the US with the 4 "official" regions, not simply replace the map of the "traditional" regions. Then create new articles for the official regions and retain the articles about Southwest and Mid-Atlantic etc. with references that those are commonly used but unofficial terms (like some of those articles have). Then add links to the official region names.
I think this would be simpler, more helpful and understandable to the general public, and a lot easier than facing the tide of resistance you'll face when changing all references to the Southwest, Mid-Atlantic, Midwest, etc.
Thanks, Jfitts 16:16, 23 Dec 2003 (UTC)

I always have wanted to discuss this as I knew that it would be controversial. Also I have ridden DART and it is very nice! First of all it is not my intention to obliterate the Southwest or all references to it. The four regions should come into play only when broad generalizations are necessary. Otherwise their should be a listing of the states or parts of states that apply. If the meaning southwest was broadened to include California, as it sometimes is, then DART was not the first light rail in the southwest. Even if Texas were placed into the four region system, Atlanta would still have beaten it by two years. It was however the first light rail in Texas and therefore I changed it to Texas.

Now as to the history of US regions the southwest region, as it is applied on WP, is not historic but came into vogue in the mid-twentieth century. As late as the 1940’s both Arkansas and Louisiana were considered “southwestern states.” In many of the Articles include Nevada, Utah, and Colorado as southwestern states. In it’s broadest sense the 19th century included: Arkansas, Arizona, California, Colorado, Louisiana, Nevada, New Mexico, Texas, and Utah. This came about as the traditional boundary between east and west in 19th Century geography was the Mississippi River. All except about a fifth, including Baton Rouge and New Orleans in that eastern fifth, of Louisiana were west of the river. The concept of the “West” region as it is portrayed here is not even in context with the southwest region. By looking in any encyclopedia that has this display you would see that the “West” region is subdivided into the Mountain and Pacific regions. In this scheme it is likely that the south would be called Southeast and occasionally Kentucky and West Virginia would be place in the Mid West while Virginia would go with the Mid Atlantic states.

Also the South Central region is not listed and what of the Pacific Northwest? If WP keeps this current grid of regions soon people will start carving and gerrymandering, the map to create new or should I say old regions. These regions are set in stone, there is no debate about who goes where because the government has already decided. If we decided to use the regional statistics the Census Bureau compiles, we would find we couldn’t because the southwest has been carved out of the South and West and New England (which if any region is historic it is this one) and the Mid Atlantic are carved out of the Northeast, the data is worthless.

I’m not saying that these regions should be deleted, but should be treated as unofficialregions that in some instances share cultures. However they should be listed with other regions that the state is or was in for example.

Texas is a state in the US South. Texas is some times considered in the Southwest or South Central Regions. In the 19th Century Texas was briefly part of the Trans-Mississippi Region.

If Wiki adopted this it would be easier and more accurate for everyone. ---JCarriker December 23, 2003.

But, it should be noted that this is not widely accepted socially - Delaware may be considered part of the "South" by the census bureau, but you'd have a heck of a time convincing either Delawareans or Southerners of the fact. RobLinwood 19:31, 2 January 2006 (UTC)

There have even even colleges with names like "Southwest College ..." in Memphis, Tennessee, inplying that Memphis is in the U.S. Southwest, and Northwestern University near Chicago. As for the latter, there is a historical reason in that this university is located in the region covered by the Northwest Ordinance, and it was formerly in the northwestern region of the United States. On the other hand, there are places like the Southern Methodist University that are in Texas, implying that Texas is in the South.72.146.43.188 (talk) 23:47, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

Federalism

The article has stated: "Under the United States Constitution, the federal government can legislate only on matters explicitly delegated to it by the Constitution, with the remaining governmental powers belonging to each individual state." This gives a misleading picture of the status of federalism as of 2004, particularly with word "explicitly". The federal government exercises its supremacy in ways that many people would argue go far beyond any explicit Constitutional delegation. Some of these people would praise the increased centralization, some would condemn it, but no one seriously disputes that the federal government is not now the narrowly limited entity that it was before the decision in McCulloch v. Maryland. I've reworded the passage to be more accurate. JamesMLane 17:59, 23 Oct 2004 (UTC)

If you look closely at the Constitution, it contains things like the Elastic Clause and the Interstate Commerce Clause that give the Federal Government powers that could be extended (beyond what it had in 1787). For example, there were no such things as the railroad and the radio in 1787. The Federal government undertook the regulation of radio communications when it established the F.C.C. under the Interstate Commerce clause. If you look at the technology of it, radio transmissions really do go willy-nilly across state lines, and the District of Columbia, too. Thus radio is Interstate Commerce.
The effect of the 14th Amendment was that a very large group of people became United States citizens - which had the effect of extending the power of the United States to all of the areas and territories which this citizenship occupied. The Consitution did not delegate this power to the Federal government until the 14th Amendment was radified. The word "civil" pertains to government - the effect of a war about "government" is that government changed. The "free states" were never reorganized after the civil war and this changed government in many ways as no new input of law has occurred from these free states. The government has simply filled the void created by the fact that the people are no longer self governing. User:216.78.8.110

Typo in map?

according to the homepage of the university in Massachusetts ( http://www.umass.edu/ ), Massachusetts is spelled Massachusetts, not Massachussetts User:62.134.88.13

Dictionary.Reference.com says the same. RickReinckens 03:41, 9 February 2006 (UTC)'

Removed a link

This URL no longer works. It was in the External Links section

--Patik 20:36, Dec 19, 2004 (UTC)

Largest city in Montana

According to this, Billings has a much larger population than Helena. I'm assuming that the "Largest city" list is by population. -- Kirill Lokshin 03:04, August 18, 2005 (UTC)

You're right. I wasn't looking at the edits too closely and thought the edit was about the capital of Montana. Sorry. Mateo SA | talk 00:32, August 19, 2005 (UTC)

Texas v. White

The case says that no state may lawfully leave the union, let this article says that it may not leave " at least under the circumstances" that seems a little too iffy for me Mbisanz 04:08, August 21, 2005 (UTC)

Actually, the case is Texas v. White — Mateo SA | talk 21:24, August 21, 2005 (UTC)
Sorry about my citing error, but the underlying question of how to refer to the case still exists Mbisanz 08:06, August 28, 2005 (UTC)
Sorry if I sounded pedantic; I didn't actually look at the article paragraph until now. The relevant passage in Texas v. White is:

The union between Texas and the other States was as complete, as perpetual, and as indissoluble as the union between the original States. There was no place for reconsideration, or revocation, except through revolution, or through consent of the States.

Looking at the paragraph, especially its mention of the Declaration of Independence, I think the writer was referring to the last part of that sentence from Texas v. White. However, the writer is confusing the distinct concepts of "revolution" and "secession". The southern states, in their ordinances of secession, were careful to assert that they were exercising their right of secession under the Constitution and not a general right of revolution. In their view, secession was a fully constitutional act; revolution would have been an act against the Constitution. The passage from TvW doesn't say that there is a right of secession through revolution. It says that no state has a unilateral right to secede, and can only withdraw from the Union through revolution or with the consent of the other states. I've consequently revised that paragraph. Mateo SA | talk 15:59, September 3, 2005 (UTC)

Maryland Named After a British Monarch?

I was under the impression that Maryland was named after the Virgin Mary, due to Maryland being a society of Catholics originally. I do not think it was named after Queen Mary and the state does not belong on that list. KStingily 00:01 September 03, 2005

You should factcheck before saying it doesn't belong on the list. The article on Maryland points out, "The new colony was named in honour of Henrietta Maria, Queen Consort of Charles I.". She was a Catholic, and likely named after the Virgin Mary, but it was not a direct line to the Virgin Mary. --Golbez 08:28, September 3, 2005 (UTC)
I was saying that because I was taught by my professor that it was named directly after Queen Mary, but he obviously was wrong. Sorry about that. I wasn't saying it shouldn't be on the list, I was saying that that was what I thought and that if it happened to be the case it should be removed, but evidently I was wrong. KStingily 00:26 September 05, 2005
I was probably a little harsh in my comment, but you didn't say "is this right", you said "it doesn't belong on the list". :P But hey, we both learned something here! And it was A queen Mary, but not necessarily THE Queen Mary people think of when they hear "Queen Mary". --Golbez 06:30, September 5, 2005 (UTC)
No harm, no foul, I wasn't very clear. KStingily 22:49 September 05, 2005

At the very least, the name has a double meaning, with "after the Queen" being more politically acceptable at the time and often later, therefore being the official explanation that went into the history books. Note that colonists landed on March 25 (the Annunciation, a Marian feast day), and that they soon set up St. Mary's City. — Eoghanacht talk 17:15, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

Requested move

Since we're moving country subdivision articles into the format "{subdivision}s of the {country}", might as well move this, right? A lot of people might contest this, though. —-seav 18:53, 31 October 2005 (UTC)

  • Add Support or *Oppose followed by an optional one sentence explanation, then sign your vote with ~~~~
  • Neutral (changed from weak oppose). I'd normally be in favor of standardization, but States of the United States sounds like something from the Department of Redundancy Department. –Hajor 02:17, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Support. It's not redundant just because the name of the country includes the word "state" - "United States" is a single proper name, while the first "States" is a generic noun. Redundant would be something like "U.S. States in the United States". -- Tyler 03:42, 3 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Oppose for now. --Golbez 01:53, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Oppose "U.S. state" flows more easily in references, and if the title changes, there will undoubtedly soon follow those who will"fix" links to the article with inelegant circumlocutions. older≠wiser 03:03, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Weak oppose--my thoughts are similar to Hajor and older!=wiser's, and I type this dozens of times daily, and would hate to have to type [[States of the United States|U.S. state]], but I would be open to seeing links to examples of Since we're moving country subdivision articles into the format "{subdivision}s of the {country}" to see if they make me reconsider. 24.17.48.241 07:12, 6 November 2005 (UTC)
    • I voted oppose, but y'all do realize that you could still use U.S. state as a redirect, right? --Golbez 07:25, 6 November 2005 (UTC)
      • Of course. But there are editors who seem to derive some sort of fulfillment from going around changing redirects into direct links--sometimes using piped links (which is OK, but rather pointless, IMO) and sometimes using tortured syntax (which is very bad). This being a Wiki, my oppose vote is for keeping the article at the form that is most easily used rather than moving to some awkwardly phrased, oddly redundant form merely to stave off the hobgoblins of trivial inconsistency. older≠wiser 14:04, 6 November 2005 (UTC)
      • Of course. But I am one of those people that try to avoid sending links thru redirects, as the extra DB hit is a waste of Wikipedia server/bandwidth resources and the reader's time, and I think the 'redirected from {blah}' message is an unwanted distraction for new readers. 24.17.48.241 18:51, 7 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Oppose. Proposed name violates Wikipedia policy of using the singular for article titles. And the current name is easier to type.  :) User:Zoe|(talk) 22:54, 6 November 2005 (UTC)
    • So all the other ones like Provinces of Afghanistan are bad? I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm saying if that's the case, other things need to be renamed. --Golbez 00:13, 7 November 2005 (UTC)
      • Comparing this to that article, at least, strikes me as apples and oranges--based on it's content (throughout its history) it would probably be better titled List of Provinces of Afghanistan (or with l/c 'p') since it doesn't include a definition of the subject, while U.S. state is a very detailed article about what US states are, how they came to be that way, and many other details. 24.17.48.241 18:51, 7 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Support -ryan-d 11:58, 7 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Oppose States of the United States sounds idiotic. :) jengod 01:33, 8 November 2005 (UTC)
  • Oppose strongly. Wikipedia:Naming conventions clearly states that singular names are nearly always preferred. Moreover, it is very, very well established that articles are named with the subject first and clarifications of usage in paretheses after. If this article should be renamed at all, it should be to State (United States). --Tysto 21:32, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

Discussion

  • Comment - since this is a potentially controversial move, and few people have spoken on the subject, I'm going to extend the consensus period for another five days to be safe. Rob Church Talk 01:35, 5 November 2005 (UTC)
  • The pluralized versions of the articles you name are out of standard with Wikipedia:Naming conventions and should be moved back. --Tysto 21:32, 23 December 2005 (UTC)

It was requested that this article be renamed but there was no consensus for it be moved. -- Stefán Ingi 00:02, 18 November 2005 (UTC)

Very Annoyed

What I came here needing was a list of the states and when they joined the Union. Could someone please add this? -155.42.91.56 17:19, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

There's a link at the bottom in the "Other lists" section to List of U.S. states by date of statehood, which sounds exactly like what you need. --Golbez 18:26, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

what the...??

"Many states' names are those of Native American tribes or are from Native American languages: Kansas, Massachusetts, Hawaii, Connecticut, Missouri, Iowa, Wisconsin, Minnesota, the Dakotas, Mississippi, Texas, and others"

excuse me??, Texas was an indian name??... i thought it was called Texas because it used to be a part of mexico called "TEJAS", but since americans have a problem pronouncing the spanish "J" sound, it was changed to Texas (samething with "Mejico", whose name is now "Mexico" for some reasson...). Of course, i could be horribly mistaken.

ill be damned, i am horribly mistaken, but no so much... lets see:

"The state name derives from a word in a Caddoan language of the Hasinai, táyshaʔ (or tejas, as the Spaniards spelled it), meaning friends or allies. Spanish explorers mistakenly applied the word to the people and their location."

So i was wrong, but right in that the mexicans used to call it Tejas.

The "x" letter is not from any problem about pronuncing, but for the former sign in spanish for the sound "j". Look at any edition of Cervantes´ famoust work from ssXVI-XVII and you´ll se "Quixote" instead of modern "Quijote" transcription.

Louisiana

I figured I would make a discussion subject about it before I went ahead with any changes - As we all know, New Orleans was hit by Hurricane Katrina, and many of the city's residents do not plan on returning to NOLA. In fact, the current population of New Orleans is hovering around 70,000 - over twenty-two thousand less than LSU's Tiger Stadium holds.

Baton Rouge, the capital, has become the largest city, practically overnight, in Louisiana. Does anybody else we should change the page to reflect this, or perhaps put an asterik next to New Orleans as the largest city?

We probably should change it and put an asterisk, with an explanation, because census figures will show New Orleans.RickReinckens 08:09, 28 December 2005 (UTC)

Procedure for admission of new states

Hi. I came to this article looking for a particular explanation (maybe this should be included in the article, unless it is being discussed elsewhere, in which case I'd appreciate it if someone would direct me to the correct venue). I was actually reading about Puerto Rico, more specifically the part about the referenda held there to decide the island's future. Well, one of the options presented to Puerto Ricans was Statehood in the United States, but what none of the articles made clear (at least not to me), is what would be the procedure if the population of Puerto Rico (or anywhere else, theoretically speaking) was to opt for statehood. I gather that the Referendum result would not be sufficient, per se, to instate Puerto Rico as a US state; possibly the U.S. Congress would have to approve it, probably taking into account certain factors. So I was wondering what would be the modern procedure for anyone to acquire statehood in the US (and I suppose Puerto Rico is a prime example, since they could, theoretically, choose "Statehood" in the next Referendum to be held there — could they be turned down by Congress, for instance?). Thanks, Redux 04:54, 14 December 2005 (UTC)

That is probably not an appropriate topic for an article on "U.S. state". It probably is somewhere in the article on the U.S. Constitution, since that states the procedure for admission as a state. The same procedure would apply that was used for Alaska and Hawaii in 1959. RickReinckens 08:14, 28 December 2005 (UTC)
Ah. I didn't know that the US Constitution addressed it — although it obviously should, my mistake. I'll look into the appropriate article then. Thanks, Rick. Redux 12:45, 28 December 2005 (UTC)
Honestly, this doesn't strike me as a terrible thing to cover at least in outline in this article. Particularly the non-US reader may be confronted here with certain historical facts -- there used to be 13 states, now there are 50 -- and wonder how the one state (ha) of affairs came to the other. --Jfruh 01:45, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
As for the refendums in Puerto Rico that give statehood as one of thre three choices: If the people of the Commonwealth Puerto Rico were to vote for "statehood", that would mean that the Commonwealth would apply for statehood. Then, the U.S. Congress would consider the application, and inspect the proposed state constitution, and other things, and then decide "yes" or "no" on granting this application or not. Likewise in the case of when Guam and the Northern Marianas might apply for statehood.72.146.43.188 (talk) 22:08, 13 September 2008 (UTC)

List of U.S. states by population growth

I added a link in the list page for an aritcle called List of U.S. states by population growth. No such article exsists that I can find but I have found multiple articles that refer to such statistics and I'd like a list. These pages mention it.

Phoenix metropolitan area -- The population of the Phoenix metropolitan area increased by 45% from 1990 through 2000, compared to the average United States rate of only 15%, helping to make Arizona the second fastest growing state in the nation in the 90s (the fastest was Nevada).

Phoenix, Arizona -- It ranks as the eighth fastest growing metropolitan area in the U.S, growing 34 percent between 1990 and 2000.

Nevada -- Nevada is a state located in the western United States. The population as of July 2004 was estimated to be 2,334,771, up nearly 17% from the 2000 census figure of 1,998,257. Nevada is the fastest growing state in the country. Between 2000 and 2003, Nevada's population increased 12.2%, while the USA's population increased 3.3%. Between 1990 and 2000, Nevada's population increased 66.3%, while the USA's population increased 13.1%.

67.142.130.23 18:40, 31 December 2005 (UTC) JCP

This page seems to have the information needed to make such a list United States 2000 Census 67.142.130.23 19:14, 31 December 2005 (UTC) JCP
The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the debate was don't move to any of the proposed locations. —Nightstallion (?) 12:47, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

Requested move, part 2

Add *Support or *Oppose followed by an optional one-sentence explanation, then sign your vote with ~~~~

Discussion

Add any additional comments
  • Oppose - I'd have to dispute this, because it seems unnecessarily long and wordy. What bias would be fixed and what accuracy would we be adding? Night Gyr 10:09, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Oppose the very nature of the request, as there is no bias to be seen here. --Golbez 10:13, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Oppose: makes linking much less easy and intuitive, without a strong reason. This is a commonly linked article, so this is no small move. Jonathunder 15:20, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Oppose for all the reasons given above. older ≠ wiser 23:32, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Oppose: If the article actually had the commonwealths administered by the US (like Puerto Rico) instead of just the so-called commonwealths of KY MA PA and VA, then, maaaaybe... ZanderSchubert 23:47, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
  • Oppose: This is ridiculous that Alphax is proposing this less than four months after the last vote, and without a coherent, articulate explanation. If Alphax does something crazy like this again, I propose that user Alphax be banned. --Coolcaesar 07:51, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
    • Proposal denied, it is far, far from a banning offense. --Golbez 18:35, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

→ United States state

  • standard abbreviation expansion to match what was done with all the other occurances of U.S – 20:05, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
    • Oppose. United States state is a mouthful, plus it would result in a lot of redirects. U.S. state is the more common usage. Of course, American state is also commonly used in American English, but we can't use that since it seems to irritate citizens of all the other countries in North and South America. --Coolcaesar 20:23, 20 February 2006 (UTC)
      Just to throw in my fifty cents, I've never heard "American state" used in American English. —Cleared as filed. 01:17, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

"U.S. states"

You know that it is bad English to use phrases such as "PIN number", "ATM machine", etc. So, why is "U.S. state" acceptable?? Georgia guy 22:57, 20 February 2006 (UTC)

Because it's not a pleonasm in the sense that the word state is not a redundant token. In this context, U.S. refers to a nation-state known as the United States of America, and state refers to one of the states which is a subnational entity of the nation-state.
In the examples you gave, the words number and machine are redundant in the sense that if the acronyms were expanded, the resulting double usage of "number" or "machine" would not contribute any additional meaning. But in the context of "U.S. state," the United States is clearly something more than just a group of states that happen to be united — as the Southern states discovered the hard way in the Civil War. --Coolcaesar 00:37, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

origin of Idaho's name unknown?

I dunno about that. Isn't it fairly certain that it was made up by George M. Willing, who tried to pass it off as a Native American word, but later admitted he made it up? See the article. -VJ 03:37, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

Texas division unconstitutional?

I just noticed this in the article, on Texas being divided:

"...it may also be unconstitutional, as reducing the equal suffrage of the other states in the United States Senate."

This is just plain nonsense. The equal suffrage clause means that no state can have more or fewer senators than any other state. If Texas were divided into several other states, each state would have two senators; the situation is exactly analagous to the creation of Maine out of Massachusetts.

I am really itching to strike this whole section fro the article, honestly. Texas's supposed right to subdivide is entirely a historic artifact -- it could have entered the Union as more than one state, but chose not to. Today its right to break up into several states is exactly the same as every other states: constitutionally permitted upon votes in favor by the state legislature and the U.S. Congress. --Jfruh 03:49, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

Since nobody has spoken up about this, I am going to zap this section. --Jfruh 02:04, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
Actually, since people will no doubt re-add it if it goes, I'm going to add a modified version to the Trivia section. It's definitely a trivial point for all practical purposes. --Jfruh 02:13, 23 March 2006 (UTC)

What makes up the U.S.? (splitting hairs)

The first paragraph makes the statement "...along with the District of Columbia, form the United States of America." Should it be "...along with the District of Columbia and Palmyra Atoll, form the United States of America."? Palmyra is an incorporated territory that was annexed as part of the territory of Hawaii, but was excluded from the state.

This is not a retorical question -- I really am not sure if the revised statement is technically correct from a international legal perspective. I may just be splitting hairs anyway. — Eoghanacht talk 17:15, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

It was once there I think, but maybe people considered it a bit too pedantic. Or maybe I'm thinking of United States. --Golbez 17:28, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
I checked the history. The reference was originally added on August 30, 2005 and subsequently expanded upon — but was deleted on December 22, 2005 by User:J. Passepartout (an infrequent editor) as a "minor" edit. — Eoghanacht talk 17:55, 16 March 2006 (UTC)
This was discussed for the intro of United States as well. There it was bolied down to a generic reference to territories of varying statuses of affiliation. In an article on U.S. states, it doesn't really seem particularly relevant to mention a tiny island with no permanent population. Perhaps it comes down to qualifying what is meant by "form[ing] the United States of America." In terms of a federal republic and the exercise of politcal power, the USA is the union of the 50 states (D.C. has a limited and very special role in the federal government). Palmyra Atoll is also a part of the area directly controlled by the federal government, but as a territory, it is not a constituent part of the federal government on the same level as the states. It could be argued that populated unincorporated territories with non-voting delegates, actually have greater participation in the federal government than incorporated Palmyra Atoll. It's status is unique, but I'm not so sure it is important enough to point out in the intro to this article. Not that I'm opposed to mentioning it, only that it not make the intro unnecessarily awkward. Just my thoughts. older ≠ wiser 18:15, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

To recap what you wrote: Palmyra (as annexed territory) is geographically fully part of the United States. But it has no standing it terms of governing the country, which is the function of the 50 states -- and partially the District because it can select presidential electors. Looking at it in those terms, I can live without the reference in the article, but also would not loose any sleep over including it somewhere. — Eoghanacht talk 18:49, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

Yes, very succinctly put. older ≠ wiser 18:55, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

The U.S. 55 Jurisdictions map participating on the U.S Main Presidential (Republican and Democratic) Party Primaries.

Map showing distribution of first place finishes in the popular vote and the number of delegates as of March 11, 2008. See text for full allocation of delegates. Most states do not have winner take all primaries or caucuses.

Failed GA

Clearly needs better refrences as it is basicly another see also section and I'm not a big fan of trivia sections to start, also too many 2 sentence paragraphs --Jaranda wat's sup 03:02, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

Hawaii is not Native American

Hawaii is included on a list of state's whose names have a Native American origin. This is obviosuly incorrect. A page with etymologies confirms that it is Polynesian. Anson2995 22:38, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Polynesians are the indigenous people in Hawaii, Hawaii is part of America, therefore Polynesians from Hawaii are Native Americans, making "Hawaii" a name of Native American origin. --67.165.6.76 04:39, 1 November 2006 (UTC)
That is so silly. Native Americans are the people who inhabited the American continents (North and South) before white people showed up; they are the people who came over a land bridge from Northeast Asia. Hawaiians are Polynesians who just happen to be under U.S. control because of a very unpleasant (and probably illegal) takeover back in 1898. But because the writers of the Constitution never contemplated that the U.S. might actually expand beyond the North American continent, they gave the Feds jurisdiction only over "Indian tribes," not all indigenous peoples who might fall under U.S. control. That's why Native Hawaiians keep agitating to be given "Native American" status even though no serious historian would consider them to be such, so that they will have semi-autonomous governments like real Native Americans, and then they can open lucrative enterprises like casinos (imagine something like Las Vegas with beaches and macadamia nuts and mahi mahi). The more elegant solution (to avoid such bizarre legal contortions) would be to amend the Constitution to directly grant the Native Hawaiians semi-autonomous status and some land of their own (like what happened with Nunavit), but then all the white and Asian people in Hawaii would never let such a proposal get out of Congress. Which is quite unfortunate (I happen to agree it would go a long way towards fair compensation to the Hawaiians for what was stolen from them), but that's the way it is. --Coolcaesar 05:44, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

United States article on featured candidate nominations list

Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/United States

Cast your vote! The more responses, the more chances the article will improve and maybe pass the nomination.--Ryz05 t 22:58, 3 June 2006 (UTC)

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the debate was no move. -- tariqabjotu 00:38, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Requested move (3)

U.S. state → State (United States) – First, text which might be wikilinked to this article should never actually take the form “U.S. state”; rather, it will often be simply “state” which can be easily wikilinked via the [[state (United States)|]] construction. Secondly, there seems to be a general preference to avoid the abbreviation “U.S.” in favor of “United States”; hence the mass renaming of articles such as U.S. presidential election, 2000 to United States presidential election, 2000 and U.S. Court of Appeals for the First Circuit to United States Court of Appeals for the First Circuit. DLJessup (talk) 15:03, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Survey

Add "* Support" or "* Oppose" followed by an optional one-sentence explanation, then sign your opinion with ~~~~

  • Support. Obviously I support my own proposal. I have the suspicion that this proposal will meet with some resistance, simply because there have been so many proposals to rename this article; people are probably simply tired of the issue. Luckily, it's been six months since the last such request (ignoring undiscussed moves and reversions), so that should be minimized. I do think that this article needs to be renamed because of that “U.S.”; I hope that I've found an acceptable alternative. — DLJessup (talk) 15:14, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
  • Support. Seems pretty common-sensical to me. --Jfruh (talk) 15:38, 19 August 2006 (UTC) Oppose Er, upon reading the other entries here, it seems obvious to me that we should be consistent across countries: why not States of the United States of America? --Jfruh (talk) 00:09, 29 August 2006 (UTC)
  • Support. United States is appropriate information to specify in the disambiguation parenthetic remark in this case. --Serge 17:36, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
  • Support. I was just thinking of this option myself. --tomf688 (talk - email) 22:14, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
  • Neutral I think that the best form should be "States of the United States", so to match similar articles (such as States of Germany, Cantons of Switzerland, Autonomous communities of Spain, etc.) --Húsönd 23:55, 19 August 2006 (UTC)
  • Oppose - Makes for very simple linking. i.e. "This person is from the U.S. state of Florida." --Golbez 00:14, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
  • Support - Per above. Voortle 03:40, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
  • Oppose, paranthetic disambiguation is discouraged. Also, aren't the States of the US proper nouns, and thus it would be "United States State"? "State of the United States of America" is least ambiguous, but most awkward. ;-) James F. (talk) 09:57, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
  • Oppose. older ≠ wiser 11:26, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
  • Support - the use of parentheses makes for easy linking via the pipe trick. --Polaron | Talk 16:29, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
  • Support for the sake of consistency. Charles 19:50, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
  • Support Mike Dillon 23:50, 20 August 2006 (UTC)
  • Oppose. The suggested usage is awkward and harder to type, since the parentheses are on the number row, which is two lines above the home row. --Coolcaesar 04:19, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
  • Oppose - awkward; and the reasons from older ≠ wiser Civil Engineer III 12:29, 21 August 2006 (UTC)
  • Support, makes perfect sense. Redirects from State (U.S.), U.S. State, and anything else you can think of will pick up the slack. --CharlotteWebb 11:02, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
  • Oppose - In all other cases, US should be written out, however, here it is just awkward. It looks and sounds awful. Leave it where it is, it is the logical titile. pschemp | talk 13:26, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
  • Oppose - if we can't come up with a format of the type States of... (for consistency w/ the rest of the world) that doesn't sound awkward, then leave it where it is. And what Golbez said. Sgt Pinback 13:59, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
  • Oppose per pschemp. --Usgnus 22:21, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
  • Oppose for consistency. FairHair
  • Oppose: not a strong enough reason to change. Thumbelina 17:14, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Discussion

The comment "text which might be wikilinked to this article should never actually take the form “U.S. state”; " is false or at least not at all accurate in the way things presently stand -- take a look at what links here. The formulation XXX is a city in YYYY county in the U.S. state of ZZZZZ is pretty common (and I rather prefer such as formulation to the ugly three-level comma-separated formulation "XXX is a city in YYYY county, ZZZZ state, United States" that many people add to internationalize articles). older ≠ wiser 23:20, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

I concur with Bkonrad/olderwiser's view. For example, I often write on photo description pages that the subject of the image is a common sight in the U.S. state of (state name). With the current name, I can link directly to this article without having to use the awkward pipe notation. With the suggested name, I would have to spend the time to type out the longer suggested name of State (United States).
Also, the suggested name would seem to violate the principle in Wikipedia:Naming conventions (common names), under which we should use the most commonly used name. I have not seen the phrase State (United States) in common use in the English language (just run a Google search). Of course, if anyone has any citations in support of that usage, those would be helpful. --Coolcaesar 05:46, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
First of all, when a disambiguator is applied to an article title, it is understood that, when wikilinked, the disambiguator will be dropped. And I daresay that “state” is much more common in the context of a state of the United States than is “U.S. state”.
older ≠ wiser: With regards to your formulation, you could use “XXX is a city in YYY county in the state of ZZZ in the United States”, which has the advantage of being wikilinkable to all containing governmental units.
You misunderstand disambiguation. "State (United States)" as a title does not mean that the entire phrase is used. It means that "State" is what the name of the object is. The disambiguation term in parenthesis is not part of the name. It is there simply to disambiguate and should be rendered invisible (through the pipe trick) whenever a wikilink to it is created. Plus, the term "U.S. state" will redirect so you can still use it. That's what redirects are for. --Polaron | Talk 13:53, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
— DLJessup (talk) 13:29, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
Except that that is an even more inelegant formulation than the comma-separated one. I see little point in having separate links to both U.S. state and the United States in the same sentence. I can only speak personally, but I think just about any reference to "state" meaning a U.S. state should explicitly qualify it as being a U.S. state. The term "state" without context is pretty ambiguous. As for linking to the United States, why is that important. I mean, it is extremely unlikely that anyone reading Wikipedia would not have at least a general idea of what the United States is. And I think it is rather unlikely that someone looking at an article about some city/town/village/etc., will very often need to jump to the United States article for more information about the city/town/village/etc. I think it is rather more likely that a random reader won't be familiar with all of the fifty states or even how the states relate to the federal government as described in the U.S. state article. older ≠ wiser 13:45, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

older ≠ wiser 13:45, 24 August 2006 (UTC)

James F. wrote that “paranthetic disambiguation is discouraged”. I find this surprising, especially given that the MediaWiki software has built-in support for parenthetic disambiguation. Could somebody please point me to a source for this claim? — DLJessup (talk) 12:31, 20 August 2006 (UTC)

Chicken, meet egg.
James F. (talk) 18:40, 22 August 2006 (UTC)
Well, gee, that was clear and helpful. I can think of at least two interpretations for that comment: first, that the support for parenthetic disambiguation is now regarded as harmful, but it can't be gotten rid of because there's so much use and there's so much use because of MediaWiki's support (the chicken-and-egg problem); second, in analogy to “Kettle, meet pot,” that I am making unsourced claims at the same time that I am asking for them.
Would you mind clarifying which you mean? — DLJessup (talk) 19:30, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

As the person who did nearly 1000 moves of pages with U.S. in them and changed them to United States, a while back, I feel like I have some insight into this discussion. In this one case, the abbreviation was left since it is awkward in the written out form. The current title is logical and commonly used in English and has been this way for a long time, since consensus is that it makes more sense to people and is easier to find. The alternatives look and sound awkward. It is best for this article to remain where it is. pschemp | talk 13:30, 23 August 2006 (UTC)

Pipe Trick

If the change is adopted, then references could be written [[state (United States)|]] and would appear as state. e.g.: 

The [[state (United States)|]] of [[California]]...

would appear as: 

The state of California...

--Serge 22:46, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Made the whole title bold again

Wikipedia tradition is to bold the first mention of the article title in the lead paragraph. Since this is an article about states of the United States, not just mere states, I thought I should make that clear. --Coolcaesar 02:57, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

Why I fixed Budaih's offensive edits

It is extremely offensive to Americans to insert text that confuses states with provinces, as well as very inaccurate. The difference is that American states are separate sovereigns with full plenary powers apart from those they have voluntarily ceded to the federal sovereign by ratifying the Constitution. In contrast, most other countries devolve power to provinces from a national sovereign. --Coolcaesar 01:55, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

Coolcaesar can go ahead and be offended. Buaidh just happens to work for one of those 50 semi-autonomous U.S. provinces. My job is to protect the citizens of our state. One of my duties is to review proposed legislation for language that could diminish the rights of our state.



My dog is a subnational entity. This is silly, meaningless, and pretentious language. Buaidh 05:14, 22 January 2007 (UTC)

Last time I checked, one of the major issues in the American Civil War was the political status of states. Many important issues in contemporary American politics, including medical marijuana, gun ownership, abortion, and euthanasia, are framed in terms of the sovereignty of states vis-a-vis the sovereignty of the federal government. A province is delegated power, while a state inherently possesses it. This is basic political science. --Coolcaesar 22:28, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
This argument presupposes that the terms "state" and "province" have immutable and quantifiable definitions, which is simply not true. Provinces in Canada, for instance, retain some of their own sovreignty in a manner similar to U.S. states. (Technically, they derive some of their sovereign rights directly from the monarch rather than from the federal government, but the effect is similar.)
Also, one might be careful about throwing around terms like "offensive," and presuming to speak for all Americans. Assume good faith. I didn't necessarily agree with the content of the edits, but I certainly wasn't offended by them. --Jfruh (talk) 22:56, 22 January 2007 (UTC)
It is quite offensive to call them anything but what they are: States. (or in some cases, Commonwealths are acceptable). Travis Cleveland (talk) 03:15, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

Northern Virginia Succession

There is also talk of Northern Virginia succeeding from the rest of the commonwealth because of issues over where Northern Virginia tax money goes and vast cultural differences. Although it is probably not practical, thought it should be included in that section. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 72.66.211.90 (talk) 23:52, 7 February 2007 (UTC).

1) It is seceding, not succeeding. 2) The map of the US displays the Eastern Shore of Virginia as a part of Maryland. The colors do not match, and when the mouse is dragged across, the MD link comes up.

As of the secession of NoVA, it is unlikely and would take a lot more time and effort than currently is seemingly available. As the population of NoVA grows, it seems that the residents are content in the knowledge that they largely control the state-wide elections. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 155.2.3.2 (talk) 15:59, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

States table

I moved the states table to states of the United States of America (50 United States) and added two maps and more references. This move is designed to help less sophisticated users (such as school children) find basic information about, and links to, the 50 United States without having to scroll through our elaborate discussions about the evolution of states' rights and other arcane issues. I hope everyone finds this acceptable. Buaidh 17:14, 26 February 2007 (UTC)

I don't understand, the table used to be right at the top of this article. I'm reverting this until we can have some discussion. --Golbez 03:52, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
The last time the list of states was near the top was 2005-11-12. I updated the table of states to the latest version. Let's discuss please. Buaidh 05:54, 27 February 2007 (UTC)
On a somewhat related note, I see no reason the bullet points that precede the table should be written as a sentence; particularly given the fact that semicolons do not call for a capitalized letter, while bullet points do. This results in two things: poor grammar and a massive near run-on sentence that looks ridiculous. As such, I've cleaned up the table introduction and removed the semicolons. NihilisticMystic 21:58, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
Buaidh took the initiative to replace the deleted semicolons with periods. A move with which I also disagree, as most, if not all, of the bullet points aren't complete sentences. Periods belong at the end of complete sentences, not simply as closers to statements. I see no reason to add punctuation at all, please provide a rationale should someone feel different. NihilisticMystic 17:16, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

Official and Common State Names

The "State of" or "Commonwealth of" in the title of a U.S. state is not a descriptor but an integral part of the title, and that is why they are capitalized. Thus, the State of New Jersey is a state, but the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania is also a state. These are not redundencies but the proper state titles as used in U.S. law. The State of Massachusetts changed its name to the Commonwealth of Massachusetts in 1780, but remained a state. If the State of California decided to change its name to the Magic Kingdom of California, it would still be a state.

"The U.S. states of New Jersey and Pennsylvania" is a proper use of the common names and "states" is written in lower case. --Buaidh 13:37, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

It is correct to write either "U.S. State of Delaware" or "U.S. state of Delaware", but the former is preferred on first use. --Buaidh 15:14, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

By the same reason I change the "commonwealth of Puerto Rico" to "Commonwealth of Puerto Rico", this is an integral part of the title as used in U.S. law and is not a descriptor. (Seablade (talk) 05:22, 9 April 2008 (UTC))

According to the Chicago Manual of Style, 15th ed., whether "state" is capitalized before the name of the state depends on whether you are referring to the location (His vacation took him to the state of Wisconsin) or the government (She saw no other course but to sue the State of New Mexico).

Pronunciation

The IPA pronunciation of the states is un-referenced, I am going to see if they are all on dictionary.com and if not find another reference for the IPA. -Ravedave 04:06, 9 June 2007 (UTC)

Was about to ask the same thing. For one, no one born in the PNW pronounces Oregon with three syllables, and some pronunciations of Colorado resemble that of Nevada. - Keith D. Tyler 19:18, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
There are substantial regional variations in the pronunciation of the names of the states. Many natives compress the name of their state in normal conversation, but when they are asked to speak formally, the sounds usually reappear. Many Oregonians skip the middle syllable of their state, and many Arkansans pronounce their state without an "r" sound.
The English pronunciation of Spanish state names is another problem. Most Coloradans and Nevadans dislike the way folks from other states try to pronounce the names of their states. The pronunciation given for Nevada is as recommended by the Nevada state government (not the Spanish pronunciation of Nevada), and I can vouch for the native pronunciation of Colorado. --Buaidh 19:52, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
These pronunciations also replace /æ/ (the vowel in AmE "bat") with /ɒ/, which is the sound in some AmE dialects and most BrEs in "law". There are a few other errors, Such as in Kentucky, which should be /kʰɘnˈtʰʌ.kʰi/. Unfortunately I cannot cite any references at this time. By the way, the residents of Arkansas prefer to be called "Arkansawyers" /ˈaɹ.kʰən.sɑ.jɚz/. -- J Riddy 17:18, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
We can't really use OR to determine proper pronunciation, unfortunately. Possibly the governments of the states themselves have preferred pronunciations, as well as "nationality" terms (e.g. "Coloradan"). If so these would seem like good sources. - Keith D. Tyler 18:00, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
/ɒ/ is actually the sound of the o in "hot" in RP, though the father-bother merger means that it becomes /ɑ/ in GA. /ɒ/ is simply absent from GA. I presume the accent we want to use here is the most neutral one, i.e. GA, so these are simply wrong on this basis. Hairy Dude 12:14, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
The /ɒ/ sound doesn't exist in any American accents outside of New England, which are considered very non-standard, so the inclusion of it in state names such as Florida, Georgia, Oregon, etc., seemed entirely inappropriate and I changed it to the more common mid back rounded vowel followed by r. 216.27.136.197 (talk) 18:37, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

+

Template:USA imagemap with state names Csörföly D 00:20, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

Missouri Most Populous City

Sorry if this is already been brought up, I tried to do a good job searching the talk page...couldn't find anything...

I'll admit that this often a topic of contention: which city, Kansas City or St. Louis, is more populous?

I came by this page to see what WP said on it, and it claimed Kansas City. Fair enough, as usually this depends on what the definition of "city" is. Often, KC is considered the most populous in terms of population within the city limits, although the St. Louis MSA is considerable larger. This is not my point of contention.

The page cites KC as most populous, but links to reference 8, which is a blurb about how STLMSA is most populous. Can we clarify this a little? I would do it myself, but I don't want to step on anyone's toes. Doyel 13:44, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

Eight states have this situation where the most populous municipality is not in the most populous metropolitan area. The note above the table explains that this column is "The most populous incorporated place or census-designated place within the state as of 2005-07-01, as estimated by the U.S. Census Bureau". We could add another column for the most populous metropolitan area, but this would be pretty monotonous for states like Arizona where Phoenix is the state capital, the most populous city, and the most populous metropolitan area. In five states (Connecticut, Maryland, New Hampshire, New Jersey, and Virginia, the most populous metropolitan area is centered outside the state. Kansas City, Missouri, is the most populous incorporated city in the State of Missouri, but St. Louis is the heart of Missouri's largest metropolitan area. --Buaidh 14:43, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
I guess I shouldn't be surprised that you didn't even bother to read what I wrote. I don't care that is says that KC is the largest. However, the citation reads, "The City of Saint Louis and the 8 Missouri counties of the St. Louis-St. Charles-Farmington Combined Statistical Area form the most populous metropolitan region in Missouri." My point was that the citation has nothing to do with KC being the most populous incorporated space. Maybe I wasn't being clear. Maybe someone can fix it. Doyel 05:21, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
So the reference in this case is more of a side-note. While KC is the largest city, which fits the table, the note is indicating that the STLMSA is the largest metro area. What's the problem? - Keith D. Tyler 17:07, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
KC is the most populous municipality. What more do you need to know! The note merely adds the fact that STL is the most populous metropolitan area. --Buaidh 12:57, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

Population lists

The populations given on this list do not match up with the populations given on the wikpedia page of most of the states.

The population figures in the table are "The United States Census Bureau estimate of state population as of 2006-07-01." Many state articles use the U.S. Census 2000 population instead. --Buaidh 20:45, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Language rights

The U.S. states of Louisiana, New Mexico, and Hawaii give certain special rights to, respectively, the French language, the Spanish language, and the Hawaiian language, since these languages were used to administer these areas prior to their acquisition by the United States. For the history of New Mexico, please see Language Rights and New Mexico Statehood. --Buaidh 13:29, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

Arizona

Arizona may also have come from Spanish: Arido + Zona = arid zone. 24.4.131.142 21:20, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

how do u create a fake state for fun. This is my homework and i want to know how to make 1 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.193.34.155 (talk) 23:17, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

you... don't? 208.58.26.153 (talk) 01:36, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

State governments

After finding Local governments in the United States and Federal government of the United States, and the Category:State governments of the United States, I excitedly created State governments of the United States without scanning this article first. I think there is a different role for each article, but I wanted to mention that before forking quite a bit of info from this article. Thoughts or responses would be appreciated. • Freechild'sup? 21:40, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

The Map

Q: I have a question about how the map on the US States article was made. Is that a widget? If anyone can answer this, I would want to know how links were able to be added on the individual states on the map image.

A: ? —Preceding unsigned comment added by CZ8-23 (talk • contribs) 18:08, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

New York

One of the big debates on the New York Talk page focuses on the reference by many to New York City simply as New York. Yet, typing New York leads to an entry for New York the state. One of the major objections with moving the page to New York State and making New York either a redirect to NYC or a disambiguation page is that so many other pages link to New York. Perhaps we might consider changing the link for New York the state to New York State, as this redirects to the current article for New York the state anyway. It will help pave the way for a future move, should there be one. --JBC3 (talk) 03:02, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

Federal Funding

This article now says, "...Eisenhower Interstate Highway System. The system is mandated and partially funded by the Federal government but it also serves the interests of the states..." "partially funded" might be literally correct, but it is misleading in a practical matter. The Interstate Highway System is, by law, 90% Federally funded. To me, that is "mostly funded" by the Federal government. (Or find yourself a synonym for this.) To reasonable people, "partially funded" means 50% or less. If I had gotten a scholarship that paid 20% of my college costs, then that would have partially paid for my college education. If I had gotten a scholarship that paid 75% of my college costs, then that would have mostly paid for my college education. Someone could "partially" pay for something for me, and that could be as little as 1%.72.146.43.188 (talk) 01:44, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

I don't agree that "partially funded" automatically means less than 50% to "reasonable people". If some one said that you and your scholarship each partially pay for your college costs, many would figure that the total paid by you and the scholarship equals 100% (some would wonder if there were other funders) and would estimate the relative percentages based on their experiences with scholarships. I point this out not to be a pedantic, but to make a general point about bald statements about what "reasonable people" or "most people" would think. People assume that most people will see things the same way they do; it is an easy trap to fall into. Having said that, I think it is not as specific as possible to say "partially", and I will make the change. -Rrius (talk) 21:55, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

Moving between states

"No government approval is required to move between states (with the exception of convicts on parole."
These other people can also be quite legally forbidden from moving - w/o specific permission to do so - to another state: People who have been put on probation for offenses. This includes such cases as someone who has been sentenced to spend two years in prison followed by five years on probation. After the two years is up, the convict is on probation, and not on parole. 72.146.43.188 (talk) 01:59, 14 September 2008 (UTC)
Another case of being not allowed to go from one state to another is a person who is out of confinement on bail. This person can be ordered to stay in the state where he is. In other words - to remain in the jurisdiction of the court that has granted him bail. This applies to other states as well as to foreign countries. In a recent case, the mayor of Detroit was out on bail, but he violated the conditions of his bail by going to neighboring Windsor, Ontario. It would have been just as bad for him to have gone to Toledo, Ohio.72.146.43.188 (talk) 01:59, 14 September 2008 (UTC)
A person out on bail in one state who "jumps bail" to go to another state can be arrested and charged with the Federal crime of "Unlawful flight to avoid prosecution". And also returned to the original state for more prpsecution.72.146.43.188 (talk) 02:10, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

Commonwealths

"Somewhat confusingly, two U.S. territories – Puerto Rico and the Northern Marianas – are also referred to as Commonwealths." It might also be worth mentioning that this is not a new innovation, but rather, there was formerly the Commonwealth of the Philippines (est. 1935), which by mutual agreement, was granted independence in 1946.72.146.43.188 (talk) 02:24, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

It may be worth mentioning that the Philippines was commonwealth, but I'm not sure what is added by saying it wasn't an innovation. I think the point is that there is confusion because we have things called commonwealths that are states and things called commonwealths that are not states. That another thing was formerly in the latter category does not change that confusion, but it is notable both because the relationship with the Philippines is important and because it shows a route to independence from the second kind of commonwealth status. -Rrius (talk) 21:28, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

Relevance in first paragraph

Since my edit was undone based on the text being there "for ages", let's discuss. Why is it necessary to note that four states are named "commonwealths" in the definition of a US state in the first paragraph? The four states who use the commonwealth name are still states and this text only helps fuel the idiotic misconception that they are not states. Archons (talk) 02:37, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

But officially, to them, they are commonwealths. They are nationally considered states, but they have their own terms. It has to be mentioned somewhere, maybe not the intro but somewhere. --Golbez (talk) 05:09, 24 May 2009 (UTC)
It is noted later in the article-- there's an entire section. Archons (talk) 13:53, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
I have no idea where the original parenthetical came from, but I've never had any problem with it. It makes sense because it helps to immediately explain the situation for any readers coming in on a link from the articles on those four states, to eliminate any initial confusion as to why the article on the Commonwealth of Massachusetts, for example, links to an article on U.S. states. --Coolcaesar (talk) 08:07, 25 May 2009 (UTC)
I would think the reader would figure it out after reading the first line of the Massachusetts article: "The Commonwealth of Massachusetts is a state..." Archons (talk) 13:53, 25 May 2009 (UTC)

Legal Cases

Not everyone understands legal shorthand at a glance. (Remember foreign readers, too.)
In something like "In Baker v. Carr, the ...", it would be helpful to say, "In the court case Baker v. Carr in 1962, the ..." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.146.43.18872.146.43.188 (talk) 03:58, 14 September 2008 (UTC)

If the first bit taken out by the ellipsis is "court said" or "court held", then it is obvious from context. That cases are called "X v. Y" is common knowledge anyway. People from "X and Y" countries can figure it out and vice versa. The key here is that if we say a court decided something, people will figure out that the two names and a conjunction refer to a court case. -Rrius (talk) 21:23, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

List of U.S. states - extra languages

On the list of states table, 2 of the states appear in an additional language - Hawaii (Hawaiian) and Louisiana (French). This is not standard and I think should be removed. The state-specific articles can and should have this additional info. What do you think? Thanks Kvsh5 (talk) 20:55, 20 February 2009 (UTC)

But those are the official names of those states, according to the states... on 'list of countries' we include both English and local official names. --Golbez (talk) 00:11, 21 February 2009 (UTC)
Three U.S. states have two official names, one in the English language and another in the official language prior to statehood:
The English-only folks keep deleting the non-English state names, but they are still official. --Buaidh (talk) 01:02, 21 February 2009 (UTC)
Not only English-only people. I don't give a rat's posterior about English-only, but I would oppose listing "Estado de Nuevo Mexico" without support. The state's constitution says, "The name of this state is New Mexico, and its boundaries are as follows...", without ever getting around to noting a Spanish alternative. Short of some contrary evidence, listing the Spanish version is WP:OR. -Rrius (talk) 06:11, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

State Governments

The section on state governments gives the impression (if not overtly) that the structure of state governments were based on the federal governments. This would be a serious error. Much of the structure of the federal governement was based on the way the sates were organized. The historical record will note that some debated as to which state had the best form. There was of course the Great Compromise but even there what came about was derived from state models. Another example would be the federal constitution. Much of it already existed in state constitutions. States, as even Jack Rakove noted historian on early American History, who is no fan of state's rights, has written existed as political entities prior to the union. See his Original Meanings. I'll leave this comment for discussion for a while but if no one is going to comment on this Ill make a very smooth addition to this section that will not detract from but calrify this. --76.31.242.174 (talk) 00:14, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

Defacement

I spotted a defacement at this link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_territory —Preceding unsigned comment added by 137.204.72.93 (talk) 13:31, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

is US sovereign ?

From the reading of the article it is not clear whether the state of US is sovereign fully across all its territory. THis is because each of the individual states atleast theoratically retain some sovereing powers as per the article. When we talk of Nationa state in international law we refer to a single entity enjoying absolute sovereignity over all of its territories. Any restriction on such sovereignity makes the state less sovereign albeit the state remains a state. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 123.238.79.97 (talk) 18:14, 23 July 2009 (UTC)

  • See Tenth Amendment to the United States Constitution. 147.70.242.54 (talk) 01:38, 27 August 2009 (UTC)
  • Your understanding of sovereignty in international law is overly simplistic and would deny the sovereignty of the United States, Canada, Mexico, Germany, Switzerland, Australia, and others. Since the U.S. Constitution places international affairs solely within the hands of the national government, state sovereignty is mostly irrelevant for international law purposes. -Rrius (talk) 01:46, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

"State of Oregon" redirect

There is currently a discussion over whether "State of Oregon" should redirect to Government of Oregon or Oregon at Wikipedia:Redirects_for_discussion#State_of_Oregon. Rreagan007 (talk) 02:03, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

Official/Common redundancy

I think it's rather silly and redundant to use up space in the table to have columns for both official and common names. It does nothing else but include "State of" or "Commonwealth of" in front of the name and then duplicating the name in the next column. I would significanly prefer removing the Official State Name column and including clarification in the introduction and footnotes to mark the very few exceptions. If this very wide column were removed there would be room for area, population density, or something else more noteworthy and less repetitive. Reywas92Talk 22:46, 25 November 2009 (UTC)

I agree. It is a largely pointless column. -Rrius (talk) 23:01, 25 November 2009 (UTC)
I agree, but think that if we're going to drop one of them, it should be the common one. The full, official names, are in 5 cases different from the common name, and I'd rather we list the "State of Rhode Island and Providence Plantations" rather than "Rhode Island." --Golbez (talk) 23:11, 25 November 2009 (UTC)
The commonwealth examples are already dealt with in the prose. The long form of Rhode Island and Hawaiian version of Hawaiii could be similarly dealt with or dealt with as footnotes. Those states do not warrant adding "State of" to the beginning of all the rest. -Rrius (talk) 23:21, 25 November 2009 (UTC)
I can live with omitting "State of" et.al. and having "Commonwealth of" dealt with in footnotes, but Rhode Island should definitely not be dealt with in footnotes; that is the name of the state. If the name of the state makes it longer, then so be it. --Golbez (talk) 01:00, 26 November 2009 (UTC)
I didn't just suggest footnotes. It might also make sense somewhere in the text of the article. Frankly, the justification for having Rhode Island's full name in the table seems quite weak. I'm also not suggesting adding footnotes in the table for commonwealths; they are already dealt with in the prose, and that is sufficient. -Rrius (talk) 01:12, 26 November 2009 (UTC)
Isn't the justification the fact that that's its name? --Golbez (talk) 05:11, 26 November 2009 (UTC)
No, because "Rhode Island" is also its name. Perhaps it is worth noting in the text, but that really does seem to be something more appropriate to Rhode Island (which it should be noted uses the short form for its title). In any event, there is no good reason to put the full name in the table. -Rrius (talk) 22:49, 29 November 2009 (UTC)
Yes, it uses the short, common form. So does United States. So does Great Britain. Heck, so does Mexico. And I have no problem with that. That doesn't mean that in a list article, we should use the short, common form. Especially since those examples aren't exactly equivalent; they remove geographic or governmental modifiers ("of America" "of Great Britain and Northern Ireland" "United ... States") that aren't necessary to an understanding of what subject you're talking about. But "and Providence Plantations" does not fit that. By that logic, we could change the entry in the list of countries to "Antigua", or to "Bosnia". Maybe I'm wrong, but I see no reason to split out "and Providence Plantations" to a footnote. It's the name of the state. That seems like a good reason to me. It has one name; that most people refer to it by a shorter name does not change the fact that its name is Rhode Island and Providence Plantations. --Golbez (talk) 22:53, 29 November 2009 (UTC)
(edit conflict) The countries you list are routinely entered in lists by those short names. To your other point, "Rhode Island" and "Rhode Island and Providence Plantations" are both appropriate names for the place. I am not saying anything to the contrary; you are. For a table, where space limitations and readability both militate in favour of shorter versions, it makes sense to use "Rhode Island". -Rrius (talk) 23:00, 29 November 2009 (UTC)

(unindent) After I wrote my reply, but before I posted it, you added more to your contribution. The fact is that in common usage "Rhode Island" perfectly appropriate and, in deed, more common. "Bosnia and Herzegovina" versus "Bosnia" are actually worse parallels than the ones you first noted because Bosnia and Herzegovina are different geographical, historical, and cultural entities, where "Providence Plantations" cannot be said to be any such thing. -Rrius (talk) 23:05, 29 November 2009 (UTC)

True, but it's a similar situation; I would guess (I could be wrong) most people refer to those countries as Antigua, Trinidad, and Bosnia. I'm perfectly fine with the article being at Rhode Island; that is, far and away, the most common name for the state. But I just think a primary list of states should include the full name. (primary being, this is the article on this subject. we aren't talking about a list in a summary article) A similar issue in another country is Aceh; the full name is Nanggroe Aceh Darussalam. And the list of provinces of Indonesia does indeed mention that full name, even though at least 99% of our readers would never know that name. --Golbez (talk) 23:10, 29 November 2009 (UTC)
"Primary list of states" means nothing. It is one of many lists of the states across Wikipedia, and there is no reason why this list should write out "and Providence Plantations". I'm not sure what your point is about Aceh. If you do not accept that "Rhode Island" is a perfectly acceptable name for Rhode Island, as you appear not to do in some of your comments, you are just wrong. If you just think that the list should use the longer one, I disagree because officiousness should bow to practicality. -Rrius (talk) 23:16, 29 November 2009 (UTC)
My point about Aceh... 1) It's a province with a very long name that 99% of people don't know, 2) The article is located at the shorter name, and 3) the list includes the long name. That's my point. It's a parallel situation. I'm not saying one list should necessary dictate policy for another, but I am saying there's precedent. Anyway, we seem to have jumped waaaay ahead of things here. Let's drop the column in question first (the official name) and see how it looks. After all, that was the primary goal here, one which I agree with - removing the redundancy. I don't want to be remembered as the guy who was a douche about "and Providence Plantations." :P --Golbez (talk) 23:21, 29 November 2009 (UTC)
Reywas92 already ditched the official name column, and I assumed you knew that, so I though you were arguing for
  • Pennsylvania
  • Rhode Island and Providence Plantations
  • South Carolina
I agree that, whenever stating the official name, it should be "State of RI of PP". I think everything makes more sense now. -Rrius (talk) 23:26, 29 November 2009 (UTC)
I, er, didn't. That's what I get for carrying on this discussion while on vacation. And I am kind of arguing for that. --Golbez (talk) 00:07, 30 November 2009 (UTC)

Good Article Nominee

I think this article should be a good article nominee. I've skimmed over it quickly, and it deserves to be a good article nominee, from what I saw.Us441 (talk) 22:29, 13 December 2009 (UTC)

I have speedy failed this nomination. Please review WP:WIAGA for what is expected. There are obviously vast sections of the article without any references, and there are many cleanup tags and citation needed tags. I encourage you to add references and later renominate, but it is clearly not a good article. Reywas92Talk 23:59, 13 December 2009 (UTC)
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