Talk:United States Semiquincentennial

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Requested move 21 August 2019[edit]

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

No consensus to move. There is no consensus for any move, and therefore it is not necessary to evaluate the specific alternative move targets proposed. Given the length of time that this discussion has already sat in the backlog, relisting does not appear likely to bring about any further resolution. bd2412 T 17:07, 8 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

United States Semiquincentennial → United States Sestercentennial – This is the term for a 250th anniversary according to the Anniversary article. Georgia guy (talk) 16:30, 21 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  • Oppose Looks like most sources have already chosen to go along with the term the US government is using with the United States Semiquincentennial Commission Act. All the events being organized are using semiquincentennial. Reywas92Talk 22:14, 21 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support Sestercentennial is the Latin term for an anniversary of 250 years. [1] Changing would be consistent with what Wikipedia already uses.Timmy2691 (talk) 20:24, 22 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Quite the mouthful either way, and the 2008 n-grams aren't much of a help. How about just United States 250th anniversary until things get sorted out. Randy Kryn (talk) 20:51, 22 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Both choices are as common as the word sesquicentennial, which can probably be used to knock some students out of the next spelling bee. Randy Kryn (talk) 21:55, 22 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose The article is on a specific event which is named "United States Semiquincentennial" [2] [3]. While Sestercentennial may or may not be the correct Latin word for 250th anniversary, it's not the name of the event and would be unlikely to be searched by a person looking for information on the event named "United States Semiquincentennial". For instance, our article on Tumblr is not named "Tumbler" on the basis of the latter being the correct spelling. Chetsford (talk) 21:01, 22 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose The nonprofit group, USA250, in charge of the events is using semiquincentennial. [4] Public Law 114-196 mentioned in the article established the United States Semiquincentennial Commission Act of 2016. It's safe to say this is the common name. – The Grid (talk) 18:02, 23 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Then why is the group's name USA250 and not USASemiquincentennial? I renew my idea of United States 250th anniversary with what the group named itself in mind and what will undoubtedly be the event's common name. Randy Kryn (talk) 18:23, 23 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Because the name of the group is irrelevant? The event is documented as the semiquincentennial. There's verifiable sources provided for the usage. – The Grid (talk) 19:00, 23 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • This is one of those "official names" and "common name" examples. I don't have current evidence but am willing to bet a bushel and a peck that the common name for this event is now and will forever be United States 250th anniversary. And in this case I'm in favor of moving outside of the official name. Randy Kryn (talk) 19:16, 23 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Until there's sources that provide usage of United States 250th anniversary, the common name more aligns to Semiquincentennial. There's still 7 years to see how this plays out. For reference, a Google check is already present for the usage of semiquincentennial. – The Grid (talk) 20:21, 23 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • The organization USA250 is separate from the United States Semiquincentennial Commission. USA250 is a non-profit organization established to organize observances in the City and County of Philadelphia which is also the designated center of national observances. The United States Semiquincentennial Commission is a statutory body established by Congress to ensure the organization of observances in all states and territories of the United States. As planning advances, there will be many organizations similar to USA250 established in other jurisdictions outside Philadelphia and, presumably, operating under a variety of local names. Chetsford (talk) 00:17, 28 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • I think that's too soon to really tell. Per WP:COMMONNAME, Although official, scientific, birth, original, or trademarked names are often used for article titles, the term or name most typically used in reliable sources is generally preferred. I'm looking at United States Bicentennial for a bit of a comparison and noticed the initial committees for the celebration were also named as such. (United States 200th anniversary is also a recently created redirect) You do get results back when searching for United States 250th anniversary" -Wikipedia on Google but <200 results. The other is a bit over 2k results. – The Grid (talk) 15:40, 30 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose As others have said, the ultimate WP:COMMONNAME is still up in the air, given the relatively meagre RS coverage this has attracted at this early stage. But as a provisional common name, the current title seems like the best choice. Neutral on Randy's suggestion - it's arguably more widely recognizable, but as The Grid points out, it seems to be used in RS significantly less than the current title. Colin M (talk) 01:37, 2 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Comment[edit]

BD2412, since the nomination wording of the above RM did not include United States 250th anniversary, and it only came up within the discussion and was not part of the original considerations, could a new RM on that stand-alone topic be made at some point? Thanks. Randy Kryn (talk) 17:51, 8 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

  • Yes, I don't think that would be objectionable, although I would let it rest for a few weeks first. bd2412 T 18:06, 8 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Thanks. Well, it's rested for 243 years (18 in Wikipedia time), could rest a little longer. In the meantime people will learn how to spell semiquincentennial (or not, according to my spellchecker). Randy Kryn (talk) 18:13, 8 September 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Dubious[edit]

Under American domestic law, the United States of America was de jure established on July 2, 1776, by a resolution of the Second Continental Congress in the city of Philadelphia, Pennsylvania.[1]

This claim seems unsupported by the source. The source does not state, as a matter of "American domestic law" and certainly not de jure anything, that "the United States of America was de jure established on July 2, 1776". If anything, as a legal matter, the ratification of the Constitution might be closer, but that's neither here nor there. Is there actually a source that says that the July 2 date was legally significant? If not, that claim should be removed. This "Did You Know" page doesn't make for much of a legal source. Best, Kevin (aka L235 · t · c) 22:54, 20 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

This likely refers to the Lee Resolution, which should be mentioned and linked somewhere in there. And maybe more familiar language than "de jure". Good catch. Randy Kryn (talk) 22:57, 20 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, that's probably fine to reference if we want to. I'd also say that it's a bit weird to say that the United States was "established" in 1776 – perhaps better to call it the year of "independence". Correct me if I'm contradicted by a reliable source, but it's my understanding that "United States" wasn't a proper noun and no one asserted that the 13 states collectively formed a single political entity/sovereignty in 1776. Best, Kevin (aka L235 · t · c) 23:06, 20 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Maybe remove the "Under domestic law" descriptor, which I don't understand either. Have added the Lee Resolution and linked de jure which, changing my mind about my comment above and striking it, may be the perfect word for the remainder of that sentence and to lessen your concern. In essence, the Lee Resolution formally put the thing together without naming it. "United Colonies" was the actual name mentioned, which became "states" upon the July 2 passage of the first paragraph of the resolution (the other two paragraphs were approved much later), so "de jure" fits well as a descriptor. Randy Kryn (talk) 03:16, 21 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]
That whole paragraph was pretty bad. I made corrections per the cited sources and did some copyediting to tighten the whole thing up. Station1 (talk) 05:45, 21 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

References

  1. ^ "Did You Know... Independence Day Should Actually Be July 2?". archives.gov. National Archives and Records Administration. Retrieved May 20, 2018.

Detail level of lede & background section[edit]

My edit to these sections was quickly reverted by User:Randy Kryn despite providing extensive rational. I felt it was appropriate to WP:BOLDLY make the edits because I had seen no discussion of whether or not the extraneous details should be included and the article had not received any edits for over two months.

This article has unnecessarily detailed information in the lede and background section that variously go a. Per WP:SS, the lede should only contain the most important points, the sections of the article should have a moderate amount of information about the important points, and highly detailed info should be linked to the main article that discusses it. For some reason past editor(s) of this article think it is appropriate to mention the long-form, official name of the Declaration of Independence and to discuss the July 2/July 4 "debate" in the background section. Both of these topics are of unnecessarily detail for an article that is only about the anniversary of said document and event. The official name of the Declaration is rarely if ever used, and the title of its article is the common name. The date issue is trivial information with respect to this article is about the 250th anniversary celebration, which will take place in 2026 regardless of the date in July independence was actually adopted or declared. And, again, the detailed discussion is available at the linked article for independence day. Ha2772a (talk) 01:05, 7 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

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