Talk:Utah/Archive 2

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Archive 1 Archive 2

Contradicting Statements

The opening paragraph states that about 88% of Utah's population lives along the Wasatch front, but the 4th paragraph of the Geography section says 75% of the state's population live in the area. Does anyone know which is right? Could we get a source? HotWheels(53) Talk 17:18, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

The first stat states that 88% of the state lives within an urban center with SLC at its center. This "Urban Center" goes from Nephi to Logan. The 2nd stat is only talking about the Wasatch Front (Utah, Salt Lake, Davis, and Weber counties).

User:Aspen04 18:15, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

Missing citations & footnotes

I see this article has been tagged since July for not having enough footnotes and/or citations. Did the discussion part of this page get wiped out? Does anyone have a list, even partial, of what parts need citations? If the deficit isn't extensive, and the population distribution figures is the only identified problem, we don't need a tag on the whole article. Preston McConkie 19:30, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

Just search the rendered page for the word "citation." I've already used that to find one and clear it up (Great Salt Lake desert's aridity). I'm working on the next: record high temperature. — Jaxad0127 19:39, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

That one's been fixed. Looking at recent population growth in Juab and Millard counties. — Jaxad0127 19:44, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

Maybe I'll just list them, with location:
  • Juab and Millard, Santee and Washington counties record growth (Demographics opening).
  • Percentage of British/Danish ancestry (Race and Ancestry).
  • Tongans mostly here after LDS conversion (ditto).
  • Hispanic increases along thew Wasatch Front (same).
  • African American community near Hill AFB (near Ogden).
  • Percentages of LDS population in urban vs rural areas (Religion)
  • Other Christian faiths 1/4th of population (ditto).
  • Most Wiki article paragraphs under Politics (6 total).
  • Mexican president Vicente Fox's visit due to growing presence of Mexican Americans (Miscellaneous).
  • Popular subculture Straight Edge (ditto).

— Jaxad0127 20:00, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

There's also an OR under politics. — Jaxad0127 20:03, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

I suggest more notes for Utah's population and demography, and here's what I considered for the article:
  • Utah County has the largest Icelandic American population.
  • Sanpete County is about a quarter (26%) Danish American.
  • Filipino Americans are the state's largest Asian group.
  • Need to include the state's Japanese-Americans' struggle during WWII, plus the Topaz war internment camp in the Sevier Desert.
  • A sizable community of East Indians in the state, including an annual "Festival of India" in Spanish Fork, south of Provo.
  • An active Gay/Lesbian/Bisexual community thrives in Salt Lake City, The Advocate magazine ranks SLC as one of the 50 nation's hot spots for the subculture.
  • A projected Mormon minority in Utah by the year 2060, while the percentage of Mormons dropped to about 50% in Salt Lake County.
  • The multiethnic Sugar House district in Salt Lake City that contradicts the perceived image of Utah as "homogeneous" white or Mormon.
  • The relatively good relationship of Mormons and American Muslims in Utah, even in such times like post-9/11 hysteria and The War on Terror in the US.
  • Wikipedia had an article on Utah Italians describes the state's small but established Italian-American community.

+ 71.102.53.48 (talk) 14:07, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

Temperature removal

I removed the table with the temperatures because of [1]. It was also very unclean and it was longer than the page. I use a 1440 * 900 screen. --Sodaplayer talk contrib ^_^ 04:03, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Pronunciation

I've sometimes heard Utah pronounced /juˈtɔ:/. Is there any basis for this? -- Smjg 21:47, 11 September 2007 (UTC)

I'm not good at interpreting these pronunciation keys, but apart from a slight vowel shift, you're asking about stress on the second syllable? I've heard a range of vowel sounds on the second syllable (I think both a: and ɔ: would be accepted), but the first syllable is almost always given emphasis—among locals, anyway. Cool Hand Luke 22:35, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
I was thinking about both differences, but especially the peculiar vowel sound. I wouldn't call it a slight vowel shift - in British accents, the two phonemes are very different. -- Smjg 22:52, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
Yeah. In Utah, the first syllable is always stressed. If you see anything in writing supporting the second one, it could be added to the article as an alternate pronunciation. — Jaxad0127 02:22, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

Mountain Biking

The Tourism section should contain something about Moab etc and Mountainbiking - Jacob.roecker 18:56, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

There could be a lot added to this section on the trails of Utah and mountainbiking. I am agreeing with you on this section amended. Utah is a biking state and probably the top 5 states for famous biking trails.--75.128.18.84 (talk) 04:46, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

Old Fact Tags

 DoneThere are a lot of unsourced statements going back almost a year. I intend to remove them, but I wanted to give some notice on this talk page first to give a last notice to add references before the statements are removed. Alanraywiki (talk) 16:29, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

Too many pics

There are too many, they kind of get in the way of the text flow. Perhaps someone can make a picture gallery? Thanks...Smarkflea (talk) 18:26, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Other Christians

Are the Orthodox citizens listed under "Other Christians"? 71.194.63.161 (talk) 01:27, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

Too Much Mormon Focus

While the history of LDS is central to the history of the state of Utah, this article lacks any real focus on the original natives of the area now known as Utah. As is the case way too often, conflicts with natives is the only acknowledgement and the cultural contributions of native Americans is ignored.

Spikemcgee (talk) 14:23, 4 September 2008 (UTC)spikemcgee

too much republican focus

It is true that the state as a whole is republican but nowhere is there mention of the the progressivism in the city of Salt lake who voted 63% for the democrat ticket in 2000 and 2004 (Salt lake tribune, 2006). with gay partner benifits and a 5% green party vote the entire article leaves out a very progressive and powerful poltical arm of Utah residents. very misleading article...

I agree that the history section of this article suffers from an undue emphasis on mormonism (as does the rest of the article). I also think that in fairness, referring to mormon migrants as "Pioneers" is a serious problem. This term is specific to the LDS and does not reflect a neutral point of view. They were certainly not seen as "Pioneers" by the government of Mexico or by those who were living in the Utah territory at the time. The US government certainly did not regard them as pioneers, but as a separatist religious movement. The idea of "mormon pioneers" is central to the LDS point of view, but does not belong in an account of Utah history. ˜˜˜˜ —Preceding unsigned comment added by Embarcadero (talk • contribs) 02:39, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

24.10.213.52 (talk) 21:28, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

Standardized State Wikification

I've noticed right off the bat that this wiki is unlike other wikis for states it does not include general geographical information about the state such as bordering states and various historical aspects and things in the introduction. In addition I think the introduction needs to be shortened (along with the entire article). If there is enough information to fill two scrolls of the geography section in the body of the article, then it should be separated into its own article. I'm tagging the article for its length and also for weasel words. (EarnestyEternity (talk) 22:09, 7 November 2008 (UTC))

Utah Kingdom?

Wasnt Utah ever a kingdom with brigham as the leader at one point in history? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.202.92.68 (talk) 10:03, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

No. OrangeMarlin Talk• Contributions 03:37, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

We need a better picture of the Utah flag

When you click on the picture of the Utah flag and view the larger image, it doesn't look very good.

1. You can't read the year that Utah was settled, 1847.
2. The white things by the bee-hive look like cotton balls or something, they are supposed to be the state flower, the Sego Lilly.

Can I have permission to find a better picture of the Utah flag and put it in the place of the old picture of the Utah flag?

Permission denied. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.231.143.153 (talk) 22:51, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

Kaydell2 (talk) 05:33, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

You are totally able to do that as long as you properly tag your image. I recommend showing it to us here so we can see which is the dominant image before putting it up on the article. I do agree with you that the current image looks pretty bad. Also try to look for a svg as they can be scaled indefinitely. --Sodaplayer talk contrib ^_^ 06:47, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

History of Utah

Are you telling me that Utah's history started with the settlement by Mormons? Give me a break.OrangeMarlin Talk• Contributions 03:38, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

This part of the article is very, very weak and really needs a thorough overhaul. This is the history of mormon settlement in Utah, not the history of Utah. My general feeling is that this part of the article needs to be scrapped and re-written with a neutral point of view and a clear focus. As this section currently stands, it is misleading and contains many factual errors. Worse, it reads like it was written by a mormon historian advocating for a specific point of view (and not terribly well).

If the idea is to provide a summary political and social history (as do most articles about US states), this section should include: - What is known about native populations at the time of Spanish exploration, and the impact that demographic displacements resulting from US expansion had on them. The history of Utah entry has a reasonable summary here.

- The impact of Spanish administration (which I believe to be minimal) and the brief but more significant Mexican administration of the territory. The brief period of Mexican administration was important in at least two regards. First, Mexico had a much more deliberate approach to settlement of its northwestern territory. While I'm not certain whether any land grants were made in Utah, under Mexican commercial exchanges (e.g. around fur) had a much greater impact on the people in the Utah territory than during the period of Spanish administration (I've heard it referred to as Utah's "Beaver Bonanza"). Second, Mexican policies regarding settlement required, among other things, that those claiming land be Catholic and integrate with Mexican society (you used to get more land if you married a Mexican national), and the Mexican economy. For these reasons, the mormon settlement of the Salt Lake Valley must be seen as a political and social conflict, and not simply as the arrival of "pioneers" fleeing persecution. That's the perspective of the mormon church, but it's not historically correct

- The politics around the creation of Utah's current boundaries and the state's admission into the Union need more emphasis here. Utah came into existence as a state in the context of a the US civil war. Mormons' stated desire to set up a theocracy independent of Washington must be seen in this context, not simply in terms of opposition to polygamy. This section posits that conflict between mormons and the federal government was caused by opposition to polygamy. This is simply untrue. Mormons had declared their intent to set up a separate government - polygamy was just a sign that they did not adhere to social standards in place elsewhere in the country.

˜˜˜˜ —Preceding unsigned comment added by Embarcadero (talk • contribs) 04:15, 14 December 2008 (UTC)

Misleading/Incomplete Statements

I researched that the PEW Religious Landscape Article was a comprehensive survey of individuals in the U.S. of adult age (18 and over). The sentence used to read "...62 percent it its inhabitans..." when the sentence was comparing the LDS to non-LDS ratio in Utah. I inserted 'adult' before 'inhabitants' to clarify that it was a survey conducted on adults, not the overall population.

I also found that the LDS church reports its end-of-year 2006 data as 1.8 million, or 72 percent of the total population as being LDS. This may be due to non-identifying members of record being included in the head-count. This could also be due to the Church counting all members (even the children under 18) when the survey was conducted exclusively on adults. I do not know what to do with this information. Should we include in the paragraph somewhere that the LDS Church reports 72 percent and than explain why the count may or may not be accurate? Should we leave it as is? I think that both stats are vital, seeing as one may include mis-counted members (such as children) but could also be inflating the numbers to include people that don't identify themselves with the LDS Church. I'm thinking of including both stats in the article to leave interpretation up to the reader. What do you guys think?

Here is the URL to the LDS Church's stats: http://www.newsroom.lds.org/ldsnewsroom/eng/news-releases-stories/utah-membership

Feel free to discuss this data and suggestions as to how to include it (or keep it out) of the article.

Hi, there's no proof the discrepancy is because of children not being included in the PEW article, the PEW article is a public survey, the scrolls themselves are not public and cannot be validated. The PEW article may include non-lds mormons, yet it is still lower.

I believe the interpretation should be left up to the reader.

I've added both points, and informed the reader that there is no certainty that these are the causes of the discrepancy, as the reader can understand on their own that one of the stats could easily be falsified. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 199.104.120.170 (talk) 03:55, 9 July 2008 (UTC)

Also, and more importantly, the second paragraph of this wiki contains a misleading statement that (now updated at least) 58% of utahns are LDS, when the survey clearly only asks if they are "mormon" and not necessarily a member of the LDS church. This should be changed as it is a false statement —Preceding unsigned comment added by 199.104.120.170 (talk) 04:09, 9 July 2008 (UTC) User:Aspen04 13:54, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

At the end of the second paragraph, the article places the fact that Utah is "the most depressed state" shortly after mentioning that 61% of Utahns are members of the LDS church. This leads the reader to associate the high depression rate with the strong presence of the LDS Church. I went into the link provided and am now going to edit the statment to read:

"A 2007 study of mental health examining state and national data for statistical associations between access-to-care factors and actual health outcomes, namely a state's overall mental health status and suicide rate, ranks Utah lowest on its list. This would make Utah the most depressed state in the United States."

This will provide the reader with a concise explanation as to why and what causes the low depression rate.

User:Aspen04 18:15, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

Why is it mentioned that Utah is one of the 30% of states that did not ratify the Equal Rights Amendment, whereas none of the other 30% of states in the Wikipedia mention this? That's inconsistent, and proves either it's not significant enough to mention which means it should be removed entirely, or it's significant enough that all states that did not ratify the amendment should include this information. Davea0511 (talk) 14:51, 22 September 2008 (UTC)


Miscellaneous Statements

"According to the National Restaurant Association, Utah has the lowest rate of restaurants per capita, with 4,691 restaurants at a rate of 1.90 restaurants per person.[75]"

Does this mean the popluation of Utah is 2,469? I don't think so, a more likely number is 0.0019 restaurants per person. I could not find this stat by following the link to the citation. If this can't be made more clear or corrected it should be removed.

"According to Walmart, Utah has the fewest number of Walmart stores per capita at .081 per 100,000 people.[76][not in citation given]"

This is just not correct. According to the numbers given there would only be 2 walmart stores in Utah. A quick store locator search from walmart.com yields 20 stores in just the Salt Lake City region. Please correct or remove. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.107.112.167 (talk) 19:39, 20 December 2008 (UTC)

The religious percentages listed add up to 114% and thus are unlikely to be accurate. Can we get a better source? 68.98.83.153 (talk) 05:16, 30 May 2009 (UTC)

"The self-identified religious affiliations of adults living in Utah are: 

   * Latter Day Saints/Mormon 68%
   * Unaffiliated 16%
   * Catholic 10%
   * Evangelicals 7%
   * Mainline Protestants 6%
   * Jehovah's Witness 2%
   * Eastern Orthodox 1%
   * Other Christian 1%
   * Black Protestant Churches 1%
   * No religion 1%
   * Judaism 0.5%

Islam, Buddhism and Hinduism together number less than 0.5%"

Alcohol

The sentence claiming "As of October 1, 2008, Utah is the only state in America to ban the sale of fruity alcoholic drinks at grocery stores and convenience stores in an effort to keep them from minors." is not correct. Pennsylvania does not allow the sale of any alcoholic beverages in grocery stores or convenience stores, and that would necessarily include a ban of fruity alcoholic drinks.

Most Republican state

Someone just added an edit in the politics section, changing "Utah is one of the most Republican states in the nation" to "Utah is the most Republican states [sic] in the nation". The contributor (22:11, 14 December 2008, 68.88.255.168) gave two newspaper articles as references. The second one, from the Deseret News in 2006, talks about how Utah is one of a handful of states where Bush still had high approval ratings, and the chairman of the state Republican Party is quoted as saying that Utah is the most Republican state. The other article, from the S.L. Tribune, is from 2002. I can't access the whole article on the sltrib website, but appears to be about how the high number of LDS in the state helped Republicans win elections that year. Neither of these sources constitute sufficient basis for calling Utah the most Republican state, so I am reverting the edit. Worlingham (talk) 01:13, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

I agree. Adding such objective information without credible sources to back it up directly is certainly worth reverting. He/she can take it up here if he/she disagrees.

Similarly, the article states:"Historically, Republican presidential nominees score one of their best margins of victory here. Utah was the Republicans' best state in the 1976,[55] 1980,[56] 1984,[57] 1988,[58] 1996,[59] 2000,[60] and 2004[61] elections. In 1992, Utah was the only state in the nation where Democratic candidate Bill Clinton finished behind both Republican candidate George H. W. Bush and Independent candidate Ross Perot."

I take it that 'best state' means "state with the highest percentage of the vote". Having an independent beat the Democrats also sounds pretty good for the Republicans.--MartinUK (talk) 11:02, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

Demonym

Listed under Demonym is Utahn and Ute. I have never heard a resident of the state referred to as a Ute. The mascot of the University of Utah is a Ute and the Ute tribe is prominent in areas, but I wouldn't consider Ute an accurate demonym unless someone can show me otherwise. WXAggie (talk) 03:37, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

Yes, agreed. Utes can be University of Utah folks or members of the American Indian tribe, but it's not a term that is used generically for "people from Utah." I shall yoink "Ute" from the infobox. AtticusX (talk) 21:14, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

enclaves

Why doesn't this article mention the mormon enclaves that makes utah so famous... 76.20.38.185 (talk) 01:11, 24 July 2009 (UTC) Do you have a source that describes them? If so, add it yourself. Gaia Octavia Agrippa Talk | Sign 01:13, 24 July 2009 (UTC)

Hunstman

Has Hunstman resigned as Governor yet? as he's been confirmed as an Ambassador. GoodDay (talk) 16:27, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

I've reverted the Infobox info on the Governor & Lieutenant Governor. There's no sources that Huntsman has 'resigned' as Governor & has been 'sworn in' as Ambassador. GoodDay (talk) 16:50, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

Federal lands

I made a map for Wikitravel of Utah's public lands and Indian Reservations [2], and was wondering if anyone thought it might be useful somewhere either in this article or a related one. If I may be so bold, I think it's a good illustration, but I'm not at all sure where it should go. --Peter Talk 22:02, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

down by one

im not saying you are way off but according to the encyclopedia utah is 84,899 square miles not 84,898. off by one but thats okay —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.244.114.67 (talk) 02:17, 5 May 2010 (UTC)

History of Utah starts with the Mormons?

Why don't we include what is found on the "history of utah" main article at the begining of this one. There were people before the mormons (!)

Etienne —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.202.157.151 (talk) 15:32, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

Don't remove the state park information

this information was originally removed because of copyright infringement ... however, you now have documentation via email directly from Utah State Parks, that permission has been granted to use this information - even though it's not actually copyrighted. Bradadkins274 (talk) 23:10, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

Demographic data limited

We need to explain more information on racial, ethnic and religious groups in further detail in the Demographics subsection. Utah isn't all white, Mormon or American; one can find some diversity when it comes to US census data and other resources examined the state's growing and changing population. The article represents Utah in a very limited scope, but it is correct and accurate Utah is about 90% white/Caucasian. + 71.102.26.168 (talk) 03:50, 23 May 2011 (UTC)

Then support it with reliable sources. Otherwise, you must think that Wikipedia is an advertisement for the chamber of commerce. Well, not to shock you, it isn't. OrangeMarlin Talk• Contributions 04:09, 23 May 2011 (UTC)
Please show all users WP:LOVE. Jhunt47 (talk) 04:48, 23 May 2011 (UTC)
WTF? I show all users precisely the amount of respect that they deserve. OrangeMarlin Talk• Contributions 17:52, 23 May 2011 (UTC)
All editors deserve respect, especially editors who are unfamiliar with editing Wikipedia. Also, please refrain from swearing in the edit summary. Bgwhite (talk) 21:52, 23 May 2011 (UTC)
Please point to the Wikipedia rule that prohibits any language? You mean WP:FUCK? OrangeMarlin Talk• Contributions 21:55, 23 May 2011 (UTC)
There is also no rule to call somebody and idiot, stupid or worst of all, a republican. All I'm saying is to treat people with respect, especially to what appears to be newbies. There is Wikipedia:Civility which states right at the top, "Stated simply, editors should always treat each other with consideration and respect." Also, "assume good faith". You have not done this with your comments at the top to 71.102.26.168, Jhunt47 or in the edit summaries. Bgwhite (talk) 22:12, 23 May 2011 (UTC)

utah income tax is flat or progressive?

this article state utah has a progressive income tax with 6 brackets. the link below discusses the difference between utah's FLAT 5% income tax and the system previous to 2007. what gives? do they have flat or progressive income tax? http://www.deseretnews.com/article/700006038/Utah-Legislature-Most-Utahns-paying-less-under-new-5-flat-tax-study-says.html — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.98.214.149 (talk) 14:42, 30 May 2011 (UTC)

It looks like the tax info was old. I've updated it based on the article you linked. —C.Fred (talk) 15:53, 30 May 2011 (UTC)

Demonym

I live in utah and i have never heard or seen the use of "utahan" The reference given also does not give info on the demonym. I'm going to get rid of that reference (its irrelevent) and delete "utahan" from the info box (if there are no objections) BlakeAllred (talk) 02:32, 12 October 2011 (UTC)

The reference says Utahan is an acceptable noun or adjective form—whereas Utahn is only listed is a noun. That's my objection to deleting the term. Any sources that list only Utahn as the term and/or list it as an adjective form? —C.Fred (talk) 02:43, 12 October 2011 (UTC)
ok, i see where that says that now in the reference, i dont know how i missed that, but i've still never heard the term "utahan" BlakeAllred (talk) 03:04, 12 October 2011 (UTC)

Number of National Forests in Utah

In the first paragraph in Tourism section it states that Utah has 6 National Forests, yet in the "Protected Areas of Utah" it lists 8. I can see how the Caribou-Targhee and Sawtooth National Forest are mostly in other neighboring states. My question / comment is that both areas should be consistant, using either 6 or 8. Additional comments?? Rocketmaniac RT 16:04, 9 November 2011 (UTC)

I would support there being 8 listed in the Tourism section unless clarification is made that would exclude the other 2. Jhunt47 (talk) 17:18, 31 December 2011 (UTC)

Greatest Snow on Earth

I'm not comfortable with the editing of the text at this time but wanted to point out an error in the Climate section. It states that Utah's Ski industry started using the "Greatest Snow on Earth" mark in the 1980's but in the legal filings for the Ringling Bro's lawsuit it states that Utah started using the phrase in 1962. Findlaw

From the filing:

"Defendant Utah Division of Travel Development (“Utah”) is an agency of the State of Utah.   As early as 1962, Utah began using its GREATEST SNOW mark in connection with Utah tourism services.   Utah has used its mark in magazine advertisements every year from 1962 to the present except 1963, 1977, and 1989.   Utah has authorized the Utah Ski Association to use the GREATEST SNOW mark in connection with the Association's promotion of Utah tourism.   Utah's primary use of its mark in Utah is its display on motor vehicle license plates.   For each of the past fifteen years, Utah's budget for winter advertising, including advertising of the GREATEST SNOW mark, has ranged from $300,000 to $450,000."

50.8.127.71 (talk) 18:54, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

Fox visit

Is the Vicente Fox visit important enough to merit its own bullet point within the Utah article? Kant66 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 13:19, 5 March 2012 (UTC).

County area rework

I noted a significant discrepancy in the areas of Utah counties; this page differs in every instance from the data listed by the US government on its gazetteer page (http://www.census.gov/geo/www/gazetteer/files/Gaz_counties_49.txt) and the listing in the National Association of Counties (for Utah). The NAC data agree precisely with the census data, as long as you realize that in every case the total is rounded DOWN to the nearest whole number. I am going to re-work the data on this wikipage, and then re-work each county's wikipage, using the census data area. It hurts me to say this (since I am so used to rounding up when = or greater than 0.5), but I will round the census values down to the integer, in order to be in strict accord with the NAC values. Any comments or rebuttals??? --Spray787 (talk) 19:53, 20 June 2012 (UTC)

The Stand

The scene in The Stand where Nick meets Tom was filmed in Ogden, UT, not Midvale. Ogden's iconic Union Station is clearly visible in the background when the camera pans up as they ride away on bicycles. I have changed the entry to make the correction. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.52.76.53 (talk) 02:35, 7 October 2012 (UTC)

Error?

In the climate section, there are error messages. Should I delete them, or should someone fix them? Thanks, 17adavis7 (talk) 01:35, 7 December 2012 (UTC)

Do nothing with them for now. There seems to be a bug in the template that does unit conversions. —C.Fred (talk) 01:38, 7 December 2012 (UTC)

Okay, Thanks! 17adavis7 (talk) 01:41, 7 December 2012 (UTC)

The underlying bug was fixed, and I've purged the article, so it should be working correctly now. —C.Fred (talk) 01:46, 7 December 2012 (UTC)

Utah

Utah is home to obama. we are glad to have him as our president! many foods are grown in utah... however the most common is squash. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.83.1.215 (talk) 00:10, 8 May 2013 (UTC)

no its not. Opinions not needed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.2.138.211 (talk • contribs) 03:06, 3 December 2013‎

bigamy/polygamy

There should be a section addressing this topic since it continues to be an issue in this state. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.119.151.233 (talk) 05:20, 6 October 2013 (UTC)

If it continues to be an issue, then please provide links to the reliable sources that are reporting on it. —C.Fred (talk) 17:14, 6 October 2013 (UTC)
@ 98.119.151.233: See Polygamy in North America#Latter Day Saint Fundamentalism, Current state of polygamy in the Latter Day Saint movement, Mormon fundamentalism, and other related articles for where this is already covered at WP. Also see wp:UNDUE, as adding that information to this specific article would not be a balanced approach. -- 208.81.184.4 (talk) 16:29, 8 October 2013 (UTC)

Referendum

Why dont referendum do for polygamy?--92.46.170.206 (talk) 14:59, 5 July 2014 (UTC)

Dubious

The article claims that Utah is the only state where the majority belongs to one single church. It's sourced, but contradicted by other sources putting Rhode Island above 50% Catholic, while yet other sources has it as slightly below 50% when counting non-religious. It would be beneficial to find an additional source. Either this claim or claims about RI in other articles need to be rewritten, we cannot have it both ways.Jeppiz (talk) 00:42, 15 February 2015 (UTC)

Can you provide links to the wikipedia articles and external reliable sources that you believe contradict the statement marked as dubious? The 63% number on Catholic Church in the United States appears to come from a 1990 survey found at Adherents.com - I'm betting that the source for that is the ARDA 1990 report. However, the 2010 report puts the percentage at ~44%. The numbers from the ARDA 2010 report for Utah put the LDS Church percentage at 69%. Based on those most recent numbers, I don't see the claim as dubious (at least with respect to RI), but maybe I'm overlooking some sources? --FyzixFighter (talk) 01:11, 15 February 2015 (UTC)
Thanks FyzixFighter, that appears to be accurate. I've removed the dubious tag.Jeppiz (talk) 15:26, 15 February 2015 (UTC)

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1830s migration

"In the 1830s, thousands of migrants traveling from the Eastern United States to the American West began to make stops in the region of the Great Salt Lake, then known as Lake Youta.[citation needed]"

As far as I understand, until the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo of 1848, the "American West" was just the Oregon country. Salt Lake City does not appear to be a part of the Oregon trail, possibly because it was still in Mexico. I'm not sure if a citation exists for this one... maybe it should be removed? --Keith (Hypergeek14)Talk 03:41, 3 January 2016 (UTC)

pornography in utah

i just deleted the pornography text in the economy section because it has nothing to do with the utah economy. if anything, it's sociological. if someone wants to add a new section about culture or whatever, and add it, that'd be fine - but it's not part of utah's economy.

anyone want to add their two cents? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Prefetch (talk • contribs) 20:47, 17 February 2016 (UTC)

Yes. What people in Utah spend their money on is part of the economy, and being the largest consumer of any product is inherently notable. Restoring sourced content. Scr★pIronIV 21:07, 17 February 2016 (UTC)
that study has many problems with it (eg. wasn't adjusted for population age) and it was pretty well discredited by the more recent 2013 pornhub study where utah came in 40th place in pornography consumption, as well as the google search term study. additionally, the standard deviation between "largest consumer" and "smallest consumer" in that study is tiny. so, help me understand why you think that a discredited study should be part of the economic section here? no other state wikipedia page has a section on pornography consumption - why do you think utah should have one? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Prefetch (talk • contribs) 03:50, 18 February 2016 (UTC)
Simple - see above. It is notable, and reported as such. Now, if you want to add other data, that's fine - but removing appropriately sourced notable content is disruptive. Wikipedia does not perform the sort of original research as you have described to determine the viability of the study itself. Scr★pIronIV 15:44, 18 February 2016 (UTC)
forget the original research. my contention is that this single, non-corroborated, contradicted source that likely has near zero effect on the actual utah economy should not be in a list characterizing utah's economy. i disagree with your declaration that it's "inherently notable". please explain why this disputed trivia should qualify to be part of utah's economy in wikipedia. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Prefetch (talk • contribs) 16:37, 18 February 2016 (UTC)
Restored to Status quo per WP:BRD - you are edit warring to remove sourced content. Please read the appropriate guidelines. Scr★pIronIV 17:20, 18 February 2016 (UTC)
edit war is more than 3 edits in 24 hours. i haven't done that. are you willing to discuss this and answer my questions above, or not?
Clearly we disagree. You have provided no source that states this is a "disputed" study, or that it has been discredited. Your pointed to no specific evidence that it has been contradicted - just vague references to their existence. If there are newer studies, cite them, and add them. Start an RfC to gain a new consensus for removal. In the meantime, the status quo is maintained. Scr★pIronIV 17:52, 18 February 2016 (UTC)
my primary point, that i stated at the very start of this thread, is that this is not relevant to the economy of utah, and as such, shouldn't even have a place in the economy section of this article. adding additional sources that contradict the source doesn't solve the issue. your only response so far has been that it's "inherently notable" and so it should be included, and it appears as though you aren't willing to discuss your assertion any further than that. i'm inviting you to do so. i'm happy to have a third opinion come in on this topic. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Prefetch (talk • contribs) 18:00, 18 February 2016 (UTC)
I read through the arguments here, as well as read the Utah article again and articles for other states. After all that, it's clear to me that this portion does not make sense to be included on this page at all, let alone in the Economy section. It was originally added on 9 Jan 2010 by an anonymous user under the Entertainment section. The inclusion of this disputed assertion appears to be subjective and have been done by someone with a personal agenda. It is not noteworthy, nor does it appear to be a credible fact. - Mozmac —Preceding undated comment added 22:33, 19 February 2016 (UTC)
okay, so we've got a WP:3O here that believes the pornography text does not belong in the economy portion of this article. as per wikipedia guidelines, i'm considering this dispute resolved and i'm going to go ahead and remove the text. if you disagree with 3O, you can escalate it with an admin. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Prefetch (talk • contribs) 19:32, 20 February 2016 (UTC)
Scr★pIron please stop reverting this edit and please use the talk page to discuss this. simply reverting the edit is not productive and is not in line with the spirit of wikipedia. Prefetch (talk) 15:18, 23 February 2016 (UTC)
Indeed, start an RfC or an ACTUAL WP:3O. In the meantime, the status quo is maintained. Scr★pIronIV 15:23, 23 February 2016 (UTC)
i would have hoped we could have discussed it more, and since you've ignored the informal third opinion and refuse to discuss it further, i've gone ahead and requested a formal WP:3O. Prefetch (talk) 15:34, 23 February 2016 (UTC)
I agree with Mozmac. This shouldn't be included here, and certainly not in the economy section. I doubt pornography consumption has any appreciable effect on Utah's GDP or economy. If it did, I'd like to see a reference saying that first. Until then, this random trivia tidbit shouldn't be here. It shouldn't be included in the Utah page at all. Perhaps it might warrant a mention in some American pornography page. FuriouslySerene (talk) 15:50, 23 February 2016 (UTC)
I just came across this by accident. This is the main article on Utah, for heaven's sake. Take it out. Zerotalk 18:41, 23 February 2016 (UTC)
3rd Opinion Request Greetings, all. A third opinion was requested on this dispute; however, since there are four editors substantially involved, I'm afraid I have to decline the formal request. If more formal dispute resolution is required, I would suggest using an WP:RFC or posting at WP:DRN. I would make two points in passing, however; first that this should be turned into a binary dispute over inclusion/non-inclusion, but should discuss how something is presented (or not); second, that all parties would do well to read WP:DUE, which I would paraphrase as saying that "all points of view in reliable secondary sources should be presented duly weighted" (emphasis mine). Regards, Vanamonde93 (talk) 18:51, 23 February 2016 (UTC)
thank you Vanamonde93. we now have 4 editors that are in agreement, which i think is reasonable to call a consensus. if Scr★pIron continues to dispute this we can escalate to a WP:RFC but it hardly seems necessary when we have a clear consensus already. i'm taking the section out as agreed upon by Zero, Mozmac, FuriouslySerene and myself. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Prefetch (talk • contribs) 19:05, 23 February 2016 (UTC)

Agree with removal - unless it's a major sector of the state's economy it doesn't belong on a general article about the state. (Even if it's true... and that's a big 'if' considering the methods of this "study"). AlexiusHoratius 19:31, 23 February 2016 (UTC)

I've gone ahead and removed the content. There appears to be consensus here it shouldn't be included. FuriouslySerene (talk) 20:06, 23 February 2016 (UTC)

  • Do not include as WP:UNDUE: porn fruition that's slightly higher than other states (the article itself states, with source, that the study's authors are "quick to admit" there isn't really a significant difference among various US states) does not really warrant a mention, nevermind a long paragraph, as part of a state's Economy section. LjL (talk) 21:05, 23 February 2016 (UTC)

External links modified

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Vandalism

See 'Nazis in Utah' section.

Looks like the first line has been modified or added, as the rest of the paragraph and following paragraphs have nothing to do with this nonsense. tharsaile (talk) 15:19, 2 September 2016 (UTC)

Also, the caption of children reading books has apparently been modified to mention Nazis. tharsaile (talk) 15:26, 2 September 2016 (UTC)

@Tharsaile: Reverted. —C.Fred (talk) 15:33, 2 September 2016 (UTC)

Thank you, sir. tharsaile (talk) 15:20, 27 September 2016 (UTC)

Wolf Mountain is now Park City Canyons

please research the canyons resort (formerly called wolf mountain) purchased by the veil company which owns park city resort utah, veil resort colorado, etc. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.162.224.105 (talk) 01:54, 2 March 2017 (UTC)

Wildlife and vegetation

I've added these two sections, but would like some help populating them. People go to Utah primarily for outdoor activities, so I think it would be good to have sections discussing these topics (and possibly even separate articles, if they get big enough). ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 23:07, 18 May 2017 (UTC)

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Pending changes protection needs to be lifted

When will the pending changes protection be lifted? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:1002:B12E:4883:153D:33D2:1134:22D8 (talk) 19:38, 17 September 2017 (UTC)

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Mesa Rith vs. United States 10th circut

I I need some help finding documents on this case Billyutah (talk) 00:22, 15 October 2018 (UTC)

False etymology presented as fact

The article states that "A common folk etymology is that the name "Utah" is derived from the name of the Ute tribe, purported to mean "people of the mountains" in the Ute language.[16] This is, in fact, a false etymology", Still, a few paragraphs down, the same false derivation is presented as fact. 217.70.193.156 (talk) 08:11, 1 March 2019 (UTC)Ukimiku

I did not remove the claim of it being a false etymology, but I weakened the "This is, in fact" part of the statement—especially since the source is tagged as original research. —C.Fred (talk) 16:46, 1 March 2019 (UTC)


A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion:

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 14:37, 16 May 2019 (UTC)

Religion

Intro and religion paragraph says 62% mormon in 2012, but accompanying graph says 55% mormon in 2014.

  • Why display old statistics in intro and paragraph text and not the new ones?
  • How come they lost 11% of share of believers in two years time? Pls explain in article since it is highly irregular.

--2A03:1B20:3:F011:0:0:0:15D (talk) 13:32, 28 August 2019 (UTC)

>"Much of Walter M. Miller Jr.'s post-apocalyptic novel A Canticle for Leibowitz is set near or directly within Utah. The "hero" of the first part of the novel, the novice Brother Francis Gerard, is from Utah." Why is hero in quotes? Just use the term protagonist. 24.7.225.69 (talk) 15:52, 6 October 2019 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 7 December 2020

Under the mammals section of Utah wildlife, "Wood bison" should be changed to "plains bison." The bison herds in the state of Utah are plains bison, not wood bison. Other wikipedia pages, such as the page on the Antelope Island bison herd, correctly state that the bison in Utah are plains bison, but this page is wrong. 2600:1700:F4C0:2400:207F:60A5:E2B0:6F13 (talk) 17:56, 7 December 2020 (UTC)

 Done Thanks. (CC) Tbhotch™ 21:10, 7 December 2020 (UTC)

only state with a majority population belonging to a single church

I believe this is incorrect, it may have been true once, but it is now one of only two states where the majority belong to a single church, as Rhode Island now has a Catholic majority.

07:44, 9 March 2019 (UTC)~ Noel Ellis — Preceding unsigned comment added by Noel Ellis (talk • contribs)

@Noel Ellis: A similar question was raised back in 2015. According to Rhode Island#Religion the Catholic percentage in Rhode Island is 43%. As this is not >50%, it's not a majority though it is a plurality. I believe this is based on 2010 data, so maybe there is a new source that does support the statement of a Catholic majority in Rhode Island. What source are you basing your statement on? --FyzixFighter (talk) 13:39, 9 March 2019 (UTC)

I have found a source for Rhodes Island Catholics: http://www.catholic-hierarchy.org/diocese/dprov.html which gives a figure of 59.9% for 2016, while obviously a Catholic and not independent source, it is also repeated in Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_Catholic_Diocese_of_Providence#:~:text=The%20Roman%20Catholic%20Diocese%20of%20Providence%20(Latin:%20Dioecesis,and%20Nantucket%20in%20the%20state%20of%20Massachusetts%20.#:~:text=The%20Roman%20Catholic%20Diocese%20of%20Providence%20(Latin:%20Dioecesis,and%20Nantucket%20in%20the%20state%20of%20Massachusetts%20. with a figure of 67% Catholic 04:44, 9 February 2021 (UTC) --Noel Ellis 04:44, 9 February 2021 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Noel Ellis (talk • contribs)

Semi-protected edit request on 15 March 2021

in your fauna category there should be bears, lynx and foxes and red squirrels. in your flora there should be oak trees, pine trees, cacti, and elderberry pine 148.170.193.213 (talk) 21:02, 15 March 2021 (UTC)

 Not done: The animals all appear to be mentioned already in the Mammals section. There are no plants listed out in the Vegetation section. —C.Fred (talk) 21:04, 15 March 2021 (UTC)
@148.170.193.213: I've expanded the flora and fauna sections a bit. There's a still a little more that could be added, but they are significantly larger than before. ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 01:17, 16 March 2021 (UTC)

Adding Deseret Name

Hello. LDS members make up a majority of the population of Utah. Therefore, I think that it would be appropriate to add the name of Utah in the Deseret writing system, too. The Deseret alphabet is very much still in use in the Church of the LDS. The Deseret writing for "The State of Utah" is "𐐝𐐻𐐩𐐻 𐐲𐑂 𐐏𐐭𐐻𐐫". Thanks NorfolkIsland123 (talk) 14:59, 26 May 2020 (UTC)

Can you get a reliable source to back up your claim? I am a member of the Church here and this is the first that I have heard the alphabet still being used.Rollidan (talk) 16:19, 26 May 2020 (UTC)
@NorfolkIsland123: Except in some minor academic circles, or as a hobby, the Deseret alphabet is not used at all for anything, by the Church or by anyone else. It's mostly a curiosity now. ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 01:18, 16 March 2021 (UTC)

population map issues - false water surfaces

@JimIrwin:

The area west of the great salt lake, displays another even greater water surface which does not exist. For some reason parts of the (salte) desert have been colored there like a water surface.--Kmhkmh (talk) 09:55, 7 May 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 4 October 2021

Citations for statement about strongest tornado in Geography and geology/Climate: University of Utah website at https://home.chpc.utah.edu/~u0035056/tornado/climo/climo.html lists five significant tornadoes from the journal 'Storm Data and Unusual Weather Phenomena', which is published by NOAA. Of those five, the referenced 1993-08-11 F3 is the strongest by the Fujita scale. Above reference links to http://www.tornadoproject.com/alltorns/uttorn.htm, which lists all recorded tornados in Utah from 1950 on. The 1993-08-11 F3 is the only F3 on the list. ET1282 (talk) 05:31, 4 October 2021 (UTC)

References provided above aren't particularly reliable: it's unclear who publish/maintains the one from the university, and I'm not sure that the Tornado Project is particularly reliable either. That being said, I found other reliable sources to add. Thanks! ◢  Ganbaruby!  (talk) 05:37, 7 October 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 5 November 2021

Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints is the same as “Mormon” members are no longer being referred as “Mormon” 2600:100E:B105:8775:71A6:7BD6:F809:7B16 (talk) 16:36, 5 November 2021 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit semi-protected}} template. The common name is still Mormon. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 16:42, 5 November 2021 (UTC)

The beginning of "Culture: Sports' section makes no sense

The section starts with "Utah is the second-least populous U.S. state to have a major professional sports league franchise, after the Vegas Golden Knights joined the National Hockey League in 2017." It then immediately mentions that the Utah Jazz - in Utah since 1979 - are in the NBA, which is a major professional sports league. What is never pointed out, is that Nevada replaced Utah as the least popular state with a pro sports team when the Vegas Golden Knights joining the NHL...because the Vegas Golden Knights are in Nevada. That's why Utah is the second most populous state with a pro sports franchise.

The current wording makes it sound like the Vegas Golden Nights because Utah's first pro sports franchise, which in turn made Utah the second most populous state with a pro sports franchise. Since this page can't be edited, it would be nice to see someone fix this problem...I would do all of the stuff necessary to make edits on a page, but have had nothing but horrible experiences with the Wikipedia community any time I've edited a page. Y'all aren't a very pleasant or tolerant crowd... 2600:2B00:743A:7C00:C4AD:4597:8FD7:775 (talk) 10:15, 27 April 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 4 June 2022

Change Utah's State Stone "Topaz" to "Honeycomb Calcite". This was changed on March 16, 2022. House Bill 188. Carson R Fisher (talk) 05:38, 4 June 2022 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. - FlightTime (open channel) 05:52, 4 June 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 3 August 2022

Utah is not just landlocked… but doubly landlocked. 187.175.48.172 (talk) 18:56, 3 August 2022 (UTC)

 Not done: Utah isn't a nation, and this isn't very noteworthy. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 20:03, 3 August 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on March 21 2023

Change Utah's flag to new flag passed by governor once vote passes (which it likely will, considering how ugly the current one is) SlvrBoi (talk) 03:31, 22 March 2023 (UTC)

@SlvrBoi: the new statute does not go into effect until next year. Elli (talk | contribs) 03:51, 22 March 2023 (UTC)
Wait,so basically the flag isnt official until next year and then it becomes official? MaxtheManepic3345 (talk) 20:45, 4 April 2023 (UTC)
@MaxtheManepic3345: Correct. ––FormalDude (talk) 03:15, 5 April 2023 (UTC)

I just looked at the utah gov page and it says it (the new flag) passed https://flag.utah.gov/ could someone please change it

@Sailcalculator: Yes, as you point out the law changing the state flag passed. But it does not take effect until March 9, 2024 - see section 1.a.iii of the executive order at the link you provided above. When the law takes effect, this and other related articles will be updated. --FyzixFighter (talk) 00:54, 24 May 2023 (UTC)
I apologize Sailcalculator (talk) 20:46, 26 May 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 6 August 2023

Dexter Nelson II is the 2023 Utah Heroclix State Champion. 38.34.99.251 (talk) 00:46, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Also seems incredibly undue for this article Cannolis (talk) 01:03, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 18 August 2023

According to American Immigration Council, The top countries of origin for Utah’s immigrants were Mexico (35 percent of immigrants), India (4 percent), Venezuela (4 percent), Peru (4 percent), and Canada (3 percent) in 2018.

Source: https://www.americanimmigrationcouncil.org/sites/default/files/research/immigrants_in_utah.pdf 94.127.212.209 (talk) 07:43, 18 August 2023 (UTC)

 Note: IP was blocked on 18 August 2023 for 3 months. — Paper9oll (🔔 • 📝) 06:44, 19 August 2023 (UTC)
 Not done: Why are you using a proxy? M.Bitton (talk) 17:45, 20 August 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 25 September 2023

Add Native Americans in Utah to history section. 103.164.138.55 (talk) 02:42, 25 September 2023 (UTC)

 Done I've added a link (not sure how you wanted it integrated into prose so just used {{see also}}). Elli (talk | contribs) 02:56, 25 September 2023 (UTC)

New Flag?

I have heard that Utah is getting a new flag. There are a few news stations about Utah getting a new flag, but I have never heard of any votes yet for the new flag, So should we do something about the article for Utah or get ready in case the votes came? MasterWolf0928-Æthelwulf (talk) 17:32, 11 November 2022 (UTC)

A final design was selected, in January it will go through the state House of Representatives for approval, I have already uploaded a version on Wikimedia commons titled flag of utah.png nothing should be done until the house approves it Alexander vee (talk) 19:47, 11 November 2022 (UTC)

Alright, just wanted to know. MasterWolf0928-Æthelwulf (talk) 19:50, 11 November 2022 (UTC)
Wasn't the flag accepted as of march? https://www.fox13now.com/news/local-news/new-utah-state-flag-becomes-official-as-cox-signs-executive-order RustyShacklef0rd1953 (talk) 10:43, 7 April 2023 (UTC)
@RustyShacklef0rd1953: See the last line in the news article you linked to: "The flag change won't take effect until March 9, 2024." --FyzixFighter (talk) 13:29, 7 April 2023 (UTC)
It was accepted so it could be mentioned, imho. Then again it is already mentioned in Flag of Utah so it is kind of redundant. It is not yet in effect so the displayed flag should not be changed, yet, i agree. RustyShacklef0rd1953 (talk) 18:19, 8 April 2023 (UTC)
The flag change has all-ready gone into effect, all of the flags in Utah that i have seen have been replaced with the new one. 😎😎PaulGamerBoy360😎😎 (talk) 04:25, 9 November 2023 (UTC)
Well it has physically gone into effect. not necessarily officially. 😎😎PaulGamerBoy360😎😎 (talk) 04:42, 9 November 2023 (UTC)

Great, that wraps this up. Alexander vee (talk) 20:35, 11 November 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 15 November 2023

Most of Utah’s immigrants come from Utah. This should be added to demographics.

https://www.americanimmigrationcouncil.org/sites/default/files/research/new_americans_in_utah.pdf 2600:6C50:7EF0:4A70:7129:7578:B0A4:64CD (talk) 05:41, 15 November 2023 (UTC)

 Not done for now: That doesn't make sense – you can't immigrate to Utah from Utah. Perhaps you made a typo? I am not able to determine from the provided link what the intended addition was. Tollens (talk) 07:57, 15 November 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 20 December 2023

Most of Utah's immigrants are from Mexico.


https://www.uen.org/utah_history_encyclopedia/i/IMMIGRATION.shtml 91.192.81.61 (talk) 14:10, 20 December 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Seawolf35 T--C 14:48, 20 December 2023 (UTC)
LOL I was just about to post that response, you beat me to it. :) Shadow311 (talk) 14:49, 20 December 2023 (UTC)
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