Talk:Willie Nelson/Archive 3

Page contents not supported in other languages.
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Archive 1 Archive 2 Archive 3

Edit request on 1 May 2013

I think the April 29 birthday at top of article and in bio box is incorrect and should be changed to April 30. This change would conform with information on official Willie Nelson website http://willienelson.com/home/ and from Rolling Stone http://www.rollingstone.com/music/artists/willie-nelson/biography Thanks for you help with this. CopyCustodian (talk) 02:18, 1 May 2013 (UTC)

Not done: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit semi-protected}} template. Since this was just changed a few hours ago it's pretty clear that there's some disagreement here and this is not ripe for an edit request. Also, it looks to me like you're right on the verge of being auto-confirmed yourself, which means you'll shortly be able to edit the page yourself (if you're not already). --ElHef (Meep?) 05:00, 1 May 2013 (UTC)

April 29th or April 30th?

Since a good amount of discussion went on with the real birthdate of Nelson, I feel that we have to address the situation to reach a mutual consensus. Recently an user raised the issue that Nelson's birthdate (propelled most likely by the recent attention that the article received because of his 80th birthday) was the 30th and not the 29th. The article used the date of the 30th until yesterday. Since the issue had been raised throughout the last years a couple of times, and it will come up again at some point, I decided to use April 29th. As another user pointed out on an edit request above, a lot of reliable sources point his birthdate to April 30th, as also does his website. On the other hand, reliable sources also point out that his birthday is the 29th (The Facts of Life: and Other Dirty Jokes and Roll Me Up and Smoke Me When I Die, written by Nelson).

The answer to the question is also detailed in a number of reliable sources, the one used on the article is the book by Joe Nick Patoski, Willie Nelson: An Epic Life. An excerpt of page 13: "He came two years later a few minutes before midnight, during the last hour of April 29, 1933. Doc Simms, who delivered both Nelson children at his home, recorded the boy's birth on the first hour of April 30."

Now, since the subject of the article also says that he was born on April 29, and the source indicates that he was born on the 29th, I considered it was enough to change it and avoid further controversy. His birth was recorded by the doctor on the 30th, and it is the official date that the state of Texas recognizes as his real birthdate. It doesn't change though the fact that he was born on the last minutes of April 29, 1933, making the 29th his actual birthday and the 30th an official state record.

Thoughts?--GDuwenTell me! 14:27, 2 May 2013 (UTC)

Agree with 29th - Just the facts, ma'am. We've got multiple sources explaining the discrepancy, so all things being equal I agree with your reasoning and prefer to list the factually correct information, regardless of what the government record has to say. That said, it's definitely necessary to explain the discrepancy within the article (which you did). (tldr: What GDuwen said.) --ElHef (Meep?) 22:13, 2 May 2013 (UTC)

Edit request on 18 July 2013

PBS: American Masters

http://www.pbs.org/wnet/americanmasters/episodes/willie-nelson/still-is-still-moving/667/

  • This is not an AD*

American Masters (talk) 16:04, 18 July 2013 (UTC)

Not done: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit semi-protected}} template. It's not an ad, no, but it is a relatively short piece based on an 11-year-old interview, and I suspect it easily meets criterion 1 of the guideline on links to avoid. If you disagree, please explain why and let's determine if there's consensus to add the link. Rivertorch (talk) 18:05, 18 July 2013 (UTC)

Edit to change "participed of" to "'he participated"

Please see subheading "Activism".

Under the 3rd paragraph, it says "In 2001, following the September 11 attacks, he participed of the benefit telethon America: A Tribute to Heroes"

Please change to ""In 2001, following the September 11 attacks, he participated in the benefit telethon America: A Tribute to Heroes"

Thank you! Kironcmukherjee (talk) 23:37, 9 November 2013 (UTC)

Done with thanks, NiciVampireHeart 23:50, 9 November 2013 (UTC)

Date of Birth incorrect

His date of birth is 30th April 1933.

References [1] [2] [3]

References

  1. ^ http://theboot.com/willie-nelson-birthday/
  2. ^ http://www.biography.com/people/willie-nelson-9421488#awesm=~oCUEYiqdo6uwdQ
  3. ^ http://arts.nationalpost.com/2014/04/29/willie-nelson-celebrates-81st-birthday-with-fifth-degree-black-belt-certification/

94.195.197.220 (talk) 11:07, 30 April 2014 (UTC)Alexa Wignall

It's been discussed above, check out this link.--GDuwenTell me! 23:32, 30 April 2014 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 8 November 2014

the personal life, about a self sustaining community is 100% not true, i live here on maui

at best you could say he produces more power than he needs, which goes back to maui electric community

they might grow some of their own food, but theyre seen at the grocery stores Jhmaui (talk) 04:07, 8 November 2014 (UTC)


this was featured on the front page of reddit today

Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Cannolis (talk) 12:53, 8 November 2014 (UTC)

Minor spelling edit

My proposed change is a minor spelling edit. In the sentence "Throughout his 1975 tour, Nelson raised founds for PBS-affiliated stations across the south promoting Austin City Limits.", the word founds should read funds.

Dhpierre (talk) 21:58, 6 December 2014 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 10 June 2015

He is included among Rolling Stone's 100 Greatest Singers.[1]

References

  1. ^ "100 Greatest Singers of All Time". Rolling Stone. Retrieved June 10, 2015.

WikiMusicAuthority (talk) 19:52, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

Not done for now: I'm not seeing his name on the list... am I missing him? Or perhaps you could find another reliable source that says he's on the list? Kharkiv07 (T) 19:58, 11 June 2015 (UTC)

Willie and PriceWaterhouse

I removed an unsourced statement that it was "discovered" that the PriceWaterhouse accounting firm had not "paid" Nelson's taxes for years. I don't see any reliable source that says that this was the problem. The problem was that PriceWaterhouse allegedly induced Nelson to invest in tax shelters that were not legal -- thus causing Nelson to understate and underpay his tax liabilities.

It is certainly possible that Nelson may have ALSO hired the accounting firm to handle the actual payment of his taxes on his behalf -- but normally that's not something that most people hire an outside accounting firm to handle. If we find some reliable source that says that PriceWaterhouse had actually been hired to handle that for Nelson, the verbiage could be added back to the article. Famspear (talk) 21:05, 11 June 2015 (UTC)

PS: Considering the amount of money that Nelson was making, it's entirely possible that he might have hired an outside accounting firm to handle making his tax payments for him. We just don't want to assume that this was the case here, without some reliable source. Famspear (talk) 21:07, 11 June 2015 (UTC)
That's right, PriceWaterhouse advised him to put his money on a tax shelter which wound up going to hell and caused him to owe the IRS a bunch of money. To that you can add Neil Reshen not paying his taxes since the mid-1970s and that makes one hell of a debt cocktail. I'll make sure to get all the facts right and put it down in the article. It's important stuff and I didn't really payed any mind to it when I first wrote about it.--GDuwenTell me! 18:01, 12 June 2015 (UTC)
Expanded, I guess the explanation is now sufficient. I also mentioned above that Willie fired Reshen in the late 70s because of the tax thing and hired Mark Rothbaum instead. Rothbaum has been instrumental in arranging big deals for Willie in later years.--GDuwenTell me! 19:38, 16 June 2015 (UTC)

Hoax going around that he's dead

Be alert.--Tomwsulcer (talk) 23:40, 23 August 2015 (UTC)

cites

I noticed a bunch of cites like this:

*{{vcite news|author=Amter, Charlie|url=...|ref={{sfnRef|Amter, Charlie|2011}}}}

It doesn't need to be that complicated! This will get you there.

*{{vcite news|last=Amter |first=Charlie|url=...|ref=harv}}

I also replaced all the google books links with corresponding templates that are nice and clean and without all off the googlecruft. Way to go on putting links in for page numbers, editors! Lfstevens (talk) 01:53, 23 October 2015 (UTC)

Errors

There's some missing text under Personal section ... look for iolence — Preceding unsigned comment added by GramEdit (talk • contribs) 16:48, 25 October 2015 (UTC)


Actually, Willie Nelson is born April 30, not April 29. — Preceding unsigned comment added by WillieNelsonNelson (talk • contribs) 23:54, 25 October 2015 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 28 April 2016

75.130.122.237 (talk) 18:09, 28 April 2016 (UTC)

No request submitted

Mlpearc (open channel) 18:12, 28 April 2016 (UTC)

External links modified

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified 3 external links on Willie Nelson. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 18 January 2022).

  • If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
  • If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 16:13, 6 December 2017 (UTC)

External links modified

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified 2 external links on Willie Nelson. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 18 January 2022).

  • If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
  • If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 17:56, 19 May 2017 (UTC)

External links modified

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified one external link on Willie Nelson. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 18 January 2022).

  • If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
  • If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 09:38, 12 May 2017 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 7 March 2016

75.130.122.118 (talk) 02:21, 7 March 2016 (UTC)

Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format. Mlpearc (open channel) 02:32, 7 March 2016 (UTC)

This should be all you need to show Willie Nelson does gospel music

You must not know anything about Willie Nelson's career or his music. He wrote the song Family Bible, one of the most beloved gospel songs of all time. He has recorded gospel albums and sang gospel songs. They are all over Youtube and Amazon. Some of this stuff you should be able to pick up simply by being alive. Use your head and do YOUR research. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Lion1407 (talk • contribs) 21:09, 22 March 2016 (UTC)

@Lion1407: despite "what I know or not" a reader looking to find out about Nelson, doesn't know anything either, that's why we are here to build a place where you can look up facts, genre changes to any artist and as "anything" added to this Encyclopida needs sources to back up all claims. One song or even 2,3 songs does not mean you're "in that genre" it's not impossible for a punk band to release a heavy metal song or album. I'm not saying you're wrong, you just need to back up your claims, for the readers. Mlpearc (open channel) 23:40, 22 March 2016 (UTC)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Troublemaker_%28album%29 http://www.amazon.com/Playlist-Very-Gospel-Willie-Nelson/dp/B004EW5ZXC http://www.amazon.com/Gospel-Favorites-Willie-Nelson/dp/B000002QL6 http://www.amazon.com/Gospel-Willie-Nelson/dp/B000001V2F http://www.amazon.com/Gospel-Best-Merle-Haggard/dp/B000002QEK

Thats five albums. He also ends every one of his farmaid concerts by inviting the gospel group the Blackwoods to end the show with a medley "will the circle be unbroken" and "ill fly away."

He has also done countless lives gospel performances.

Need anything else? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Lion1407 (talk • contribs) 14:36, 23 March 2016 (UTC)

I´ll get into this to clarify that Nelson is a multi-genre kind of guy. While he did release a reggae album in 2005, we know he is not a reggae artist. Now, talking about Gospel: that's practically the foundation of his whole style, along with country music, blues and jazz. What characterizes his music is the blend of all of this genres! Those are his roots and what defined him as an artist!

There's a place for all of those genres during his usual set or bunch of album releases, and all of them represent him. I guess you can try to label him under one, but a serious listener of his kind of music knows that there's a thin blurry line to say what's blues, what's country and where the gospel begins in an artist like Nelson. Like Hank Williams and going to Merle Haggard he's a complete product of his time and environment. And that means YES, he is gospel as much as he is country, blues and jazz!--GDuwenTell me! 18:59, 23 March 2016 (UTC)

External links modified

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified one external link on Willie Nelson. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at {{Sourcecheck}}).

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 18 January 2022).

  • If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
  • If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—cyberbot IITalk to my owner:Online 05:50, 1 April 2016 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 29 April 2016

Willie Nelson's Birthday is actually April 30, 1933. Rbradford45 (talk) 16:06, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

Not done: Sources say April 29. — Andy W. (talk · contrib) 17:53, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

External links modified

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified 5 external links on Willie Nelson. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at {{Sourcecheck}}).

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 18 January 2022).

  • If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
  • If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—cyberbot IITalk to my owner:Online 14:29, 26 May 2016 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 26 May 2016

Please correct two instances of "Rashen" to "Reshen". The other six references to Mr Reshen are correct. Allan Kinnaird (talk) 12:39, 26 May 2016 (UTC)

 Done. —MRD2014 (formerly Qpalzmmzlapq) T C 14:32, 26 May 2016 (UTC)

semi-protected edit request on May 27 2016

Please edit the final sentence of section 2.2, "Outlaw County and Success (1972-1989)". The sentence contains a simple grammatical error, and should be changed from: "Nelson frequently visited the White House, where according to the biography by Joe Nick Patoski, Willie Nelson: An Epic Life, where he smoked marijuana on the White House roof." To: "Nelson frequently visited the White House, where according to the biography by Joe Nick Patoski, Willie Nelson: An Epic Life, he smoked marijuana on the White House roof."

Thank you! Noncivilised-eye (talk) 05:36, 28 May 2016 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 23 August 2016

spelling change senteced is spelt incorrectly in this article please change senteced to sentenced Ebauer6969 (talk) 13:45, 23 August 2016 (UTC)

 Done Thanks for pointing that out - Arjayay (talk) 13:49, 23 August 2016 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 29 March 2017 for Willie Nelson

Change "another daughters" to "another daughter" Sullaincharge (talk) 05:47, 29 March 2017 (UTC)

Done. Thanks for pointing it out. RivertorchFIREWATER 06:16, 29 March 2017 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 7 April 2017

Willie was never asked to be a member of the Opry as he stated he could not do the required 10 shows that is required to be a member. Ron F. Blackwood 03:10, 7 April 2017 (UTC) Also, Willie has always treated my family the Blackwoods as his family and we have been on FArmAid many times and we close the show with him singing Gosple with him. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ronnieblackwood (talk • contribs) 03:15, 7 April 2017 (UTC)

Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Jamietw (talk) 07:10, 7 April 2017 (UTC)

Cannabis activism

Preparing for WikiProject Cannabis 420 collaboration (you are invited), here are some online sources for Nelson's cannabis activism. These could be used to expand or create a new subsection.

-- Bri (talk) 16:13, 11 April 2017 (UTC)

Native ancestry

I noticed there's some recent contention of Willie Nelson's ancestry. Native American ancestry in particular is a complicated matter, partially because tribal enrollment varies widely and is not the same thing as ancestry, and partially because tribal councils don't usually release records of enrolled or past members.

In this case, I have added a citation confirming that he was awarded Indian of the Year at the 1987 American Indian Exposition in light of his mother's Cherokee ancestry. Given that this is an intertribal event, this is the closest confirmation I can find without doing proper genealogical research.

On a side note, it's interesting this was removed as citation-less, when his "English and Irish ancestry" is equally uncited, and himself and his sister have very strong native facial characteristics. Standard practice on Wikipedia is to remove false and uncitable information, but attempt to cite potentially citable claims. Wasechun tashunka (talk) 17:47, 2 April 2017 (UTC)

Facial features are never a source, and nothing in that local paper confirms his mother having heritage. Tribal Councils don't handle enrollment. The exposition you cite is the equivalent of a county fair, and has nothing to do with sourcing claims. The local paper is not a Native source and is not WP:RS for Cherokee claims. Again, you can add him to the "people who claim heritage" page, and you can remove the other heritage claims if you like, but you can't claim he has Cherokee heritage based on those sorts of sources. So far all it is is a blood myth. FWIW, Nelson has played many benefits for Native causes; at none of these events has he been recognized as a Native person. I'm not sure what that event in OK was, but he's never been indicated as a descendant at any events in recent years. So if there once was a claim, it looks to me that it was debunked. - CorbieV ☊ ☼ 22:25, 2 April 2017 (UTC)
Actually Willie Nelson's mother, Myrle Marie Greenhaw was alive during the compilation of the Dawes Roll. Neither she nor her parents are listed on it. The Dawes Roll is public record. Also Willie Nelson's biography states, in his own words - In 1953 Nelson began a traumatic marriage in Waco, Texas. ‘Martha was a full-blooded Cherokee Indian, ’ says Nelson, ‘and every night was like Custer’s last stand.’http://www.oldies.com/artist-biography/Willie-Nelson.html Now, if he was Cherokee, even with heritage, why would he equate himself with Custer of all people? Seriously? The Cherokee are the most documented of all indigenous people in the United States. He has no verifiable documentation regarding ancestry. I quickly went back five generations and found nothing. Family blood myth means nothing and perpetuating stereotypes regarding bone structure is ridiculous. Personally I think his bone structure is very similar to Abraham Lincoln but there's no relation there either. Indigenous girl (talk) 01:15, 3 April 2017 (UTC)
Just to clear things up, I wasn't claiming that Nelson's facial features are proof of his heritage! I was simply trying to make reference to the established convention that uncited statements are not to be removed if they could possibly be proven or disproven by the inclusion of citations (and are not libelous).
The reason I included the source was because it was from a reputable newspaper stating that he received the "Indian of the Year Award" in partial recognition of his "Cherokee heritage", and that this honour was bestowed on him by the organizers of the AIE, which was (for a time, at least) the only native-run expo of its type in the country (not a local county fair, rather, one of the first inter-tribal gatherings, paving the way for events such as the Gathering of Nations); therefore, I took this as recognition from the tribes themselves of his heritage. However, Indigenous girl correctly stated that none of his ancestry are one the Dawes Roll, therefore he would not be eligible for enrollment as a Cherokee under blood quanta rules. This clearly disproves the statement, so it is correct to remove it.
This still leaves a bizarre bias in the citation requirements for his ancestry (which is a contentious issue in itself, since he is, to an international audience, predominantly American), so I am going to put everything on a level playing field and state that this is his 'claimed' ancestry. I think we can agree that there's nothing untrue about that statement! Wasechun tashunka (talk) 18:54, 3 April 2017 (UTC)
I have also removed the reference to English ancestry, as it is uncited, and none of his personal claims ever refer to the presence of English ancestry. I believe his claim of Northern Irish descent may have been misinterpreted. Wasechun tashunka (talk) 19:08, 3 April 2017 (UTC)

Where exactly does Nelson himself claim Cherokee heritage? We need a recent quote as we have plenty of sources now where he could have claimed it and instead identified with Custer, or performed at recent benefits and said nothing, etc. - CorbieV ☊ ☼ 17:18, 4 April 2017 (UTC)

Even to add him to List of people of self-identified Cherokee ancestry there needs to be a source where he himself makes this claim. The sources you added, Washechun, do not include page numbers or quotes, so we can't evaluate them. Indigenous girl, is there any ethnicity besides "white" in his genealogy (any immigration records)? - CorbieV ☊ ☼ 17:28, 4 April 2017 (UTC)

I have added page numbers and quotations to the Tao reference, and replaced the Shrake reference (which was written in the third person) with a quoted reference from a recent interview. Personally, I have never come across him stating anything to the contrary, and would love if you could point me to a solid example so we can expand the article (his reference to Custer is not unusual among people of a certain generation, particularly those raised in Texas, and doesn't seem to indicate any bias in context). As for him not mentioning it at benefits, it really doesn't prove anything. He doesn't talk much onstage, let alone about his ancestry...
Regarding the absence of page numbers/quotes in the references, thank you for pointing it out! However, the standard way to approach incomplete citing is to raise the issue in the talk page, rather than removing chunks of the article (even on WP:BLP):
If there is a source that you believe to be misrepresented, or not reliable, or invalid for any other reason, the matter should be raised on the article's talk page. If you cannot access the source in question, then assuming good faith implies that you should assume that the source has been used appropriately, in the absence of any specific evidence to the contrary.
Wasechun tashunka (talk) 18:49, 4 April 2017 (UTC)

You're not doing him any favors with this. He's not Native; and I had assumed he no longer makes these claims, if he ever did. I had assumed he'd rather people forget he lied (or was mistaken) about this. WP:AGF doesn't mean we put disinformation about a BLP into articles to be polite. His genealogy has been done. Dude's white. Sorry. - CorbieV ☊ ☼ 23:24, 4 April 2017 (UTC)
Note: I have edited my comment above a bit. I'm not sure how to say this but, when I say, "what he's said at benefits"... I'm not talking about stage banter. I'm talking about what he has said to Native people I know, in person, where there are consequences for these sorts of claims, vs what you and these authors are saying he has said when there are no Natives around. I was willing to give him the benefit of the doubt that he wasn't out there making false claims, because I know what the situation is. Obviously, we can't use OR. And also obviously, as with a number of things that rely on Native records, WP is going to give priority to an inaccurate non-Native book over Native records. I haven't had time to check the books you added yet, but if he said it and authors and Wikipedians stand behind those sources as WP:RS that Willie Nelson is telling people he's Cherokee... OK, I'm afraid this is going to change some things for him. - CorbieV ☊ ☼ 00:35, 5 April 2017 (UTC)

It occurs to me that there's something else at issue here: due weight. Whether or not Mr. Nelson has made public statements about his ancestry, and whether or not any such statements are accurate, the particulars of his ancestry have jack to do with his notability. (I'm using "notability" in the general sense, not the Wikipedia sense.) He is not known for his ethnic heritage, whatever that may be, and I'm not aware that he has ever made a big deal out of it; there certainly is no evidence of sustained coverage of it in reliable secondary sources. That strikes me as problematic. Think about it: he has been interviewed and profiled in all manner of media for decades, he has written or co-written multiple memoirs and been the subject of more than one biography. I don't mean any disparagement of either Texas Monthly or the book co-written with Pipkin, but if Mr. Nelson's ancestry (or claims thereof) constituted a significant part of his public identity, I think we wouldn't have to dig so deeply to verify it.
My preference would be to remove any mention of ancestry as unwarranted detail and irrelevant trivia. In the meantime, I'm deeply unhappy with the current wording, which seems to stop just short of accusing the subject of making false claims. RivertorchFIREWATER 04:05, 5 April 2017 (UTC)
I agree. It's undue weight. I think the kindest thing would be to remove it. He has made false claims, but he hasn't made them very often or prominently; the claims are obscure enough that several of us here were totally unaware he had made the claims at all, and it's possible he doesn't even know that his mother had no Cherokee ancestry. So, the way it is worded now could be construed as an intent to deceive when, in reality, he may simply be unaware of the truth. And this is a BLP. I will just delete the section. If someone wants to add him to the claims page linked above (the wording on that page is neutral, and it's possible some of the people on that page may have distant heritage, just unlikely), feel free to move the sourced content there. - CorbieV ☊ ☼ 17:06, 5 April 2017 (UTC)
I am happy for the sentence to be removed, as this has gone on a bit too long. I do not believe that it is undue weight, as it is a single sentence in the Early Life section (does it bear any less relevance to his origins than the statements that Richard Feynman was a late talker, or that a teenage Sylvester Stallone had a summer job in a beauty salon?), and the subject himself has stated that his believed heritage has strongly shaped his musical career and his personality.
For the benefit of anyone who may read this at a later time, however, I feel the need to address a few statements that have been made and which are inaccruate:
  • Willie Nelson has stated his heritage in most autobiographies (as early as in 1988: I am including my Indian blood - which I got from my mother - as being musical. If you ever spent the night dancing and chanting in a huge circle with 15,000 Indians, like I did when they made me Indian of the year in the Spring of 1987 in Anadarko, Oklahoma, you would understand how powerfully musical Indians are... Sometimes, if it was necessary for their survival, the Indians in the Greenhaw family would claim to be Mexicans. Whether they were Indians or Mexicans it made no difference to me - I would be just as proud either way... (Nelson, Shrake 1988, p. 49), and as late as in 2015: Mother was Myrtle, three-quarters Cherokee Indian, who'd travelled down from dirt-poor Arkansas... (Nelson 2015, p. 13), as well as multiple interviews, and it is often stated as fact in secondary sources (including by his aunt, Sybil Greenhaw Young, in (Nelson, Shrake 1988, p. 94): Willie's Indian blood comes from my mother Bertha Greenhaw, who was three-quarters Cherokee. I guess you would say three-quarters because Bertha's mother... was full-blooded Cherokee. My granddad was half-Cherokee and half-Irish. So if Willie says he's an Indian, that's a fact.). This is something he has often stated over a long period of time, it was not an isolated occurrence, nor something he did in his youth, and you don't have to dig to find it.
  • If he was hiding his heritage, he would not publish it in autobiographies, or state it in public interviews. The insinuation that he refuses to make these statements in front of natives is firstly libelous, and secondly implies that either he has no native fans, or that they are illiterate (both of which are vastly incorrect, I can assure you).
I don't wish to instigate further arguing, but I really don't appreciate when I try to provide citations to improve an article and people argue over ideologies while ignoring the sources with accompanying quotations. Wikipedia is not a place to determine the truthfulness of statements, it is designed to present information from external sources. If the information found on it appears false to an editor, they should evaluate the sources available, rather than applying their opinion. Wasechun tashunka (talk) 19:15, 5 April 2017 (UTC)
Bertha Greenhaw and William Greenhaw, the individuals Sybil Greenhaw Young mention, do not show up on any Cherokee rolls and both are listed as white on US census records as do their parents, grandparents, great grandparents, great great grand parents and then we begin to get into settlers but everyone is white. It is not a fact it is a family blood myth. He can claim all he wants but it's erroneous and also quite silly that his ethnicity is considered pertinent to his career. I would simply keep him in the list of people like Cher who claim ancestry with absolutely no documented proof. Indigenous girl (talk) 01:55, 6 April 2017 (UTC)
FWIW, Wasechun, I agree with you that our role as WP editors is limited. Once we have edited an article to reflect a Reliable Source, we have done (the basics of) our job, even in the case of Living Persons. It is okay to have discussions like this on Talk pages, but BOTH sides of such controversies should be reflected in the article by the use of Neutral Points of View where possible, and by presenting both sides fairly where that is not possible. David Spector (talk) 19:41, 21 May 2017 (UTC)

Unattributed statement

The page currently states "In 1992, Nelson released The IRS Tapes: Who'll Buy My Memories?; the profits of the double album—destined to the IRS—and the auction of Nelson's assets cleared his debt." This needs a citation. I recall that Thompson's biography states that the IRS debt was paid off only after a settlement with Nelson's former tax advisors. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.168.162.7 (talk) 03:04, 20 September 2017 (UTC)


Fan trivia?

For many years, Nelson's image was marked by his red hair, often divided into two long braids partially concealed under a bandanna. In the April 2007 issue of Stuff Magazine Nelson was interviewed about his long locks.[209] "I started braiding my hair when it started getting too long, and that was, I don't know, probably in the 70's." On May 26, 2010, the Associated Press reported that Nelson had cut his hair,[210] and Nashville music journalist Jimmy Carter published a photograph of the pigtail-free Nelson on his website. Nelson wanted a more maintainable hairstyle, as well helping him stay cool more easily at his Maui home.[211] In October 2014, the braids of Nelson were sold for US$37,000 at an auction of the Waylon Jennings estate. In 1983, Nelson cut his braids and gave them to Jennings as a gift during a party celebrating Jennings' sobriety.[212]

Looks like fan trivia to me. Thoughts? -- — Keithbob • Talk • 16:45, 5 November 2017 (UTC)
It's probably a little too detailed, but the article should say something about the red hair and braids because they were definitely a big part of his public image. I'm uncomfortable with the blog primary source, so that part should probably just go. The chronology is a little confusing, too. RivertorchFIREWATER 18:05, 5 November 2017 (UTC)

Discography

I don't understand why parts of Nelson's discography are now being repeated in this main article. It is customary, when a recording artist has released a sufficiently large number of records, to split the discography off into one or more separate articles. Putting all of the discography back into the main article is redundant. Putting parts of the discography back into the main article, as has been done here, is redundant and confusing. There's not a single edit summary to explain what's going on, and I'm not a mind reader. My inclination is simply to revert, but I guess it would be nice to find out what's going on first. Pinging Benjichilders. RivertorchFIREWATER 23:31, 11 April 2018 (UTC)

Added: The above was removed without explanation by the user I pinged, which was contrary to both guideline and custom. Given the apparent unwillingness to discuss the issue, I have reverted to the version of March 25, prior to the changes. I believe the only collateral damage consisted of some https urls reverting to http, and I'm sure the bot will be back to fix them again. If my revert sticks and anyone would like me to mark this as resolved and hat it, I'd be more than happy to do that; just ask. I would appreciate its not being blanked again, however. RivertorchFIREWATER 03:46, 12 April 2018 (UTC)

Added the studio albums back to the main article. Many artists main wiki pages list their solo studio albums. It was excessive on my part to add collaboration albums to Nelson’s main article. I am currently working on cleaning up the discography article, researching back issues of Billbaord magazine to confirm/correct release dates, and adding a full listing of his music videos to the discography page. I apologize for not leaving any notes. Benjichilders (talk) 14:39, 12 April 2018 (UTC)

OK, thanks for explaining. I'm fine with some discography content being in the main article as long as there's a rhyme and reason for it. RivertorchFIREWATER 02:54, 13 April 2018 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 29 April 2019

Please add to associated "George Strait" as they have recently recorded a song together. He is very well worthwhile mentioning. I appreciate the effort. Thank you in advance.

[1] 85.145.125.242 (talk) 13:54, 29 April 2019 (UTC)

 Not done: per Template:Infobox musical artist § associated acts, one-time collaborations for a single song should not be included in this field. If there has been ongoing collaboration per those guidelines that merits a mention, please feel free to reopen this request with additional information. Thanks, ‑‑ElHef (Meep?) 14:18, 29 April 2019 (UTC)

References

  1. ^ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mbLA1ybHxkQ

Semi-protected edit request on 10 May 2020

Additional info on Willie.


White River Valley History Lesson (75) by Freda Cruse Hardison May 4, 2020 Princess Cornblossom Doublehead and Massacre at Yahoo Falls

Not unlike the legends surrounding Pocahontas, there are multiple versions of the life of Princess Pawalin Cornblossom Doublehead who met and married Big Jake Troxell. And while, some are more romanticized than others, there’s no doubt, especially with DNA linking people together with common ancestry, that both Big Jake and Princess Cornblossom not only existed, but had several children. One such descendant is Willie Hugh Nelson, born in 1933 in Texas; he and his sister Bobbie are the first two of their family born outside the state of Arkansas in over 100 years, 5th great grandson of Princess Cornblossom Doublehead and Big Jake Troxell. (9) Willie Nelson son of (8) Ira Doyle Nelson and Myrle Greenhaw, both born and raised near Pindall, Searcy County, Arkansas (7) William Alfred Nelson (6) Franklin Claud Nelson (5) Amanda Midgett (4) Elizabeth “Lucy” Bell (3) Margaret Troxell daughter of Jacob “Big Jake” Troxell and (2) Princess Cornblossom Doublehead (1) Chief Doublehead Big Jake was the son of David Troxell and Anna Chartier, a Cheraw Indian, daughter of Peter Chartier and Snow White Opessa. His lineage can also be traced but is less recognizable just as with the Apalachee the Cheraw are mostly considered extinct, through assimilation and annihilation. Nathaniel Midyett, 3x great grandfather of Willie Nelson, died in 1847 at Metro Bayou (Jacksonville), Arkansas, married to Elizabeth “Lucy” Bell who died there in 1889, she was the daughter of Margaret Troxell, daughter of Princess Cornblosson and Big Jake Troxell. While some suggest they came to Arkansas following the War of 1812, other indications are they removed to Arkansas during the 1817-1828 reservation and simply did not remove further west. Native Americans not going to Indian Territory had to hide their ancestry, and their stories. With the 1965 Civil Rights Act, stories only told within families began to come to light. Margaret “Patsy” Troxell and James Thomas Bell were living on the Little South Fork River, in Wayne County, South Central Kentucky on the Tennessee border, where they died 1860 and 1852 respectively. The timing of the movement of a number of their children into Missouri and Arkansas indicates they were politically allied with the Treaty Party. Chief Doublehead had signed the Treaty of Tellico, October 25, 1805 which resulted in an order of execution by the tribal council for illegally signing away Cherokee land. His children and grandchildren suffered both from the whites and Indians alike. The most reliable information surrounding Big Jake and Princess Cornblossom comes from Colonial military records of General George Washington. Born in 1758, the son of a Jewish immigrant David Troxel and French Delaware Cheraw Indian, Anna Chartier, Big Jake was serving in the Continental Army at Valley Forge under George Washington when he was assigned to seek as much support for the American’s as he could muster among the Indians, particularly those who were allied with the British. He was sent to the old French Post Vincennes in present day Indiana where he met Tuckahoe Doublehead, the oldest son of Chief Doublehead and Great Priber. Big Jake accompanied Tuckahoe to the Doublehead village near present day Burnside, Kentucky. He was welcomed by Chief Doublehead and took a liking to Princess Cornblossom who was no fainting flower, tall, strong and a warrior in her own right, Big Jake joined Chief Doublehead and his warriors including Tuckahoe and Princess Cornblossom in attacks on the British Tories who were killing and robbing the Cherokee along the Great Tellico Trail. They were set up in camp on the Little South Fork, Wayne Co, KY when they attacked. Big Jake was then able to use the conflicts and difficulties the Cherokee were having with British as a means of convincing Chief Doublehead to join with the Americans. Princess Cornblossom like her father had come to believe in assimilation and education as a means of survival. In 1780, Dick Justice, who owned a mill and ferry with Chief Thomas Glass, performed the marriage of Princess Cornblossom and Jake Troxell. Both Glass and Justice were allied with Chief Dragging Canoe and the Chickamauga’s. Nearing the close of the American Revolution, Chief Doublehead had amassed a rather large estate which history now reveals came through entitlements from treaties he signed with the Americans. After the assassination of Chief Doublehead, led by Alexander Sanders in 1807 by order of the tribal council, his family feared reprisals. Realizing the risk to her family and her people, Princess Cornblossom called for her people to move to the Sequatchie Valley, near Chattanooga, Tennessee where they would be safe and enroll in Rev. Gideon Blackburns’ Presbyterian School for Indians. Her tribe was to meet at the rock house beneath Yahoo Falls to begin their migration south. Many people gathered, mostly women and children when a local group of vigilantes heard about the gathering and with the full intent of killing all who gathered, men, woman and children they attacked shortly after midnight, August 10. Big Jake and the warriors guarding the path to the falls were quickly overpowered and scalped. The Indian fighters rapidly advanced to the falls area. Lining themselves along the edge of the bluff surrounding the large opening below, they began firing from all sides on the women and children now trapped directly underneath them. Over 100 children, pregnant women, and mothers huddled underneath the falls. The men worked their way down toward the floor of the rock house on the two side paths while the men up top kept them trapped. Among those dead and dying was Princess Cornblossom who died as a result of multiple gunshot wounds three days later on August 13, 1810. She was buried at the base of a large flat stone in what is today Sterns, Kentucky, the birthplace of her father, Chief Doublehead. The erosion from timber blight and logging through the 1950’s a mass grave was exposed behind the falls in the 1900’s that lead to bones being scattered along the slope so much so it was impossible to walk without stepping on them. The Massacre at Yahoo Falls was a major factor in the chapter of the Chickamauga’s move west to Arkansas. Among the survivors were Aaron Little Red Bird Brock and Young Fox, the sons of sister’s Susanna Priber (m Aaron Red Bird Brock) and Grand Priber (m Captain Black Fox), sisters to Great Priber, mother of Princess Cornblossom. The extended families, siblings and cousins of these first cousins moved to Arkansas: Brock, Farris, Fox, Bell, Callahan, Reese. Chief Young Fox who survived Yahoo Falls moved to Meadowcreek, Arkansas. In the 1900’s the area had a family with the last name of Fox who lived there and recently historians have attributed the name of Fox, Arkansas to them. However, the migration and settlement of the Chickamauga’s to Stone and Searcy County, including Young Fox, begs a different origin to the areas name. Little Jake Troxel was only 10 years old when his mother and father were killed. He spent most of the next 10 years in the home of James Farris and Elizabeth Page, and in 1820, he married their 18 year old daughter Catherine Farris. Catherine’s 1st cousin, William Champion Farris and wife, Martha Hamm would move to Alco, Stone County, Arkansas. Some historians dispute the Massacre at Yahoo Falls even occurred, primarily because until a Troxel descendant wrote of it in the 1900’s no one discussed it. Keeping one’s Native American history like this secret, held within the family was tantamount to survival. Indians and mixed breed Metis who assimilated learned quickly who they could trust and who they couldn’t and although it wasn’t written about until the mid 1900’s, doesn’t mean it didn’t happen. Black and Indian history is wrought with atrocities and likely most have not been recorded or written about especially by the whites who were the keepers of written American history. While DNA can not prove lineage it does prove people share DNA through common ancestors such as:

Chief Doublehead’s first child daughter Sukey Doublehead was born in 1759 and his last child, son Tom Foster Doublehead in 1806

Doris Wilson Fountain, 3rd great grand daughter of Peggy Doublehead born 1800 and William Wilson, 4th gg Chief Doublehead and Kateeyah Wilson

Willie Nelson, 5th great grandson of Princes Cornblossom Doublehead b 1760 and Jake Troxell, 6th gg Chief Doublehead and Grand Priber

Marshia Pitts Vance, 5th great grand daughter of Seeleechie Doublehead b1763 and George Colbert, 6th gg Chief Doublehead and Great Priber

Jami Farris, 5th great grand daughter of Gulustiyu Doublehead b 1766 and Samuel Riley, 6th gg Chief Doublehead and Grand Priber via Jami’s gg grandmother Nancy Turner; husband James Monroe Farris was a 1st cousin to Catherine Farris, wife of Little Jake Troxel who witnessed the death of his mother, Princess Cornblossom Doublehead and father, Jacob “Big Jake” Troxel.

Greg Manry, 6th great grandson of Nigodigeyu Doublehead 1764 and Samuel Riley, 7th gg Chief Doublehead and Grand Priber JDC 118 (talk) 16:23, 10 May 2020 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. This edit request does not contain citations and is excessively long. — Tartan357  (Talk) 16:31, 10 May 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request: correction to the release date of the most recent album

At the end of 2.3. IRS and later career (1990–present), it is written that "The album First Rose Of Spring itself will be available on April 24, 2020 on CD, vinyl and digitally." However, due to the COVID-19, the release date has been pushed back to July 3 2020. Source: https://theboot.com/new-music-rundown-country-americana-bluegrass-folk-albums-coming-in-2020/ See also: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_Rose_of_Spring — Preceding unsigned comment added by MichaelRach12 (talk • contribs) 12:14, 22 May 2020 (UTC)

Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Willie_Nelson/Archive_3&oldid=1113142924"