Talk:Xbox 360/Archive 16

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Gears of War 2 Special Edition

Why isn't the Gears of War 2 Special Edition console listed? If I remember correctly they were only avaliable through a couple of contest held around the time of Gears of War 2 was released. A picture of it can be found here: http://img.hexus.net/v2/gaming/screenshots/gow2logo_large.jpg —Preceding unsigned comment added by Starwolf1001 (talk • contribs) 00:58, 20 April 2010 (UTC)

Good point. If you can find the info on it (the contest dates, quantity etc) go ahead and add it.Alphathon^TM (talk) 09:11, 20 April 2010 (UTC)

Edit request from SeaNanners, 9 May 2010

{{editsemiprotected}} Can I please edit this indipendant page of Wikipedia.

SeaNanners (talk) 11:38, 9 May 2010 (UTC) That is all, Thank You.

You could normally edit this page, but Casliber (talk · contribs) protected this page due to vandalism. Bout you can edit most of the other articles on Wikipedia. Perhaps you can ask that user to un-protect this page. --Mikemoral♪♫ 16:03, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

I would advise against asking for it to be unprotected. It was protected with very good reason as every day there were dozens of edits that could be classed as vandalism, ranging from simple insertions of things like "Xbox 360 sucks, get a PS3" or "...is the best console, suck it PS3 fanboys" (you get the idea) to complete page blanking and the like. If you think something needs to be changed feel free to post a request for what you want to be changed and someone will do it for you (as long as it's constructive). Alternativelly, simply wait until you are autoconfimed, which is usually once you have made 10 edits and your account is more than 4 days old (see here). The edits don't have to be major (can be things like correcting spelling etc) and most pages aren't protected. Just be constructive and it won't be long before you can edit the page freely (although if when you can you start vandalising you are likelly to be banned fairly quickly).

P.S. the {{editsemiprotected}} is not a request for permission to edit the article, but a request for a proposed edit to be performed. Alphathon^TM (talk) 16:42, 9 May 2010 (UTC)

Why is there no "reception"

Just curious, As i was looking at the playstation 3 article and they included a reception section. I think it would be beneficial to the article, but thats just me. —Preceding unsigned comment added by T34m1nat0r (talk • contribs) 10:32, 1 June 2010 (UTC)

As far as I know there's no particular reason for it - just no-one's added it. If you want to search out quotes and such go right ahead (as long as you don't inject any personal bias which is difficult not to do in a reception section). Alphathon^TM (talk) 12:25, 1 June 2010 (UTC

Xbox 360 "slim"

{{editsemiprotected}}

UK and Europe coming July 16th 2010 please add this information to the table, thank you.

EVIDENCE - http://www.engadget.com/2010/06/14/slim-xbox-360-gets-official-at-299-shipping-today-looks-angul/ --82.14.58.103 (talk) 19:45, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

The official name of the slim Xbox 360 is the new Xbox 360. Article should be changed to reflect this. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.190.113.145 (talk) 21:29, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

Not done: See last request on this page. -- /DeltaQuad|Notify Me\ 22:39, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

 Done Alphathon^TM (talk) 00:59, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

MORE PRICING & RELEASE DATES

{{editsemiprotected}}

In Australia, [the Xbox 360 "slim"] will [be] released on 1st July [2010] for $449 AUD and for $499 NZD on 8th July [2010] in New Zealand.

EVIDENCE - http://uk.xbox360.ign.com/articles/109/1097102p1.html --82.14.58.103 (talk) 20:23, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

Not done: See last request on this page. -- /DeltaQuad|Notify Me\ 22:39, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

While this is not a request, I see what you are trying to say.  Done Alphathon^TM (talk) 23:52, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

DISCONTINUATION

{{editsemiprotected}}

According to a Microsoft representative, the Xbox 360 Original will still be sold while there's stock, but they're not making any more of them. Once they're gone, they're gone.

EVIDENCE - http://www.engadget.com/2010/06/14/slim-xbox-360-gets-official-at-299-shipping-today-looks-angul/ --82.14.58.103 (talk) 21:34, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

Not done: See last request on this page. -- /DeltaQuad|Notify Me\ 22:39, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

Added info to the "Retail Configurations" section, so  Done (I assume) Alphathon^TM (talk) 01:00, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

250 GB HDD for the Xbox 360 "slim"

In the introduction to the Xbox 360 page it states the Xbox 360 250 GB HDD is INTERGRATED but it isn't! It's removable just different to the standard removal Xbox 360 HDD. --82.14.58.103 (talk) 19:55, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

EVIDENCE - http://www.engadget.com/2010/06/14/slim-xbox-360-gets-official-at-299-shipping-today-looks-angul/ --82.14.58.103 (talk) 19:55, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

Edit request from Asholt, 14 June 2010

{{editsemiprotected}} please change Xbox 360 "slim" Skin Appearance from Matte Black to Gloss Black

Asholt (talk) 19:46, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

Just about to request that my self! Great minds think alike! --82.14.58.103 (talk) 19:49, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

EVIDENCE - http://uk.xbox360.ign.com/articles/109/1097102p1.html --82.14.58.103 (talk) 19:49, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

Not done: See last request on this page. -- /DeltaQuad|Notify Me\ 22:39, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

 Done. Somebody has taken care of this already. Alphathon^TM (talk) 01:01, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

Furthur Appearance Canges

{{editsemiprotected}} Re: Xbox 360 "slim"

A huge list of changes (Internally & Externally) as seen on the list photographed by engadget

EVIDENCE & LINK (to the photograph) - http://www.engadget.com/2010/06/14/slim-xbox-360-gets-official-at-299-shipping-today-looks-angul/

TEXT IN THE POTOGRAPH BELOW:

Xbox 360 250GB

Xbox 360 is fully loaded with new features and still comes with everything you know and love. Here's a feature list to make sure you don't miss any of the newest Xbox 360 250GB parts.

Form Factor: Sleek, lean and gloss black finish with chrome accents. Place vertically or horizontally in any living room entertainment center.

Touch Sensitive Buttons: Turn the Xbox 360 video game system on/off and eject a disc with the swipe of a finger.

Whisper Quiet: Whether you're playing a DVD disc or from the hard drive, or navigating the dashboard, with the all-new and much quieter Xbox 360, the only noise you'll hear is your own laughing, cheering and playing.

Wi-Fi: Built-in 802.11n Wi-Fi for fast, easy connection to your friends and entertainment on Xbox LIVE.

Hard Drive: 250GB internal, swappable hard drive for even more storage. To access, remove the bottom panel by pushing the small tab toward the front of the console.

Kinect-Ready: Custom Kinect port on the back of the console that directly hooks up to the Kinect sensor for controller-free fun.

USB Slots: Five USB ports; three in the back of the console and two in the front for easy plug and play.

AV Connections:

AV Cable included for standard definition TV connnection. HDMI port for high definition TV connection. Optical Audio out port integrated on back of console for AV system connection.

Power Supply: Smaller and more efficient. Xbox 360 250GB and Xbox 360 Original power supplies are not interchangeable.

Wireless Controller: The award-winning Xbox 360 Wireless Controller matches the console in all black with color-matched thumsticks and directional pad with a touch of gloss and chrome to complete the look.

Backwards Compatible. Your favorite accessories and games will work with Xbox 360 250GB. (Xbox 360 External Hard Drives and Memory Units are not compatible.)

Accessories. Customize your Xbox 360 250GB with matching black accessories, including favorites such as Controllers, Wireless Headset, Chatpad, Quick Charge and Play & Charge Kits and more. Get a look at a few of these today.

Key Internal Components Changes:

Fan: Moved from two small fans to one larger fan for improved acoustics. Chipset: 45 nanometer and integrated CPU and GPU. Wi-Fi: Integrated wireless capability.

--82.14.58.103 (talk) 21:36, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

Not done for now: There are a lot of requests here, please make them into one list format, specifying changing what to what (including sections, or paragraph numbers). Thank you. -- /DeltaQuad|Notify Me\ 22:39, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

 Done I've added the important bits to the "slim" section. RC Master (talk) 00:37, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

Comes with Headset

It comes with a headset. Here`s two sources. Video showing off XBox 360 250 GB `Slim`. Headset is listed as a feature. --Subscriber0101 (talk) 22:21, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

So it does.  Done Alphathon^TM (talk) 23:37, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

And Mexico?????

When, The new xbox 360 will get to mexico?????? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 189.136.186.93 (talk) 21:35, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

Kinect image

I noticed the Kinect image listed on this page seems to be out of date, or at least from a perspective that doesn't present the actual shape of the device. I'm thinking it may be appropriate to use the one listed on the Kinect article instead of the one listed. If anyone's looking for one without a copyright, this may work as well: http://www.flickr.com/photos/litheon/4716833180/ —Preceding unsigned comment added by Litheon (talk • contribs) 09:14, 20 June 2010 (UTC)

Xbox 360 S in Canada?

Just wondering, is it available in Canada yet? All it said was US. If that's the case, then I guess I'll have to go there just to get one. Can anyone confirm this? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 206.75.2.99 (talk) 01:33, 20 June 2010 (UTC)

All the dates etc come from Gaming sites. US gaming sites usually only pay attention to US dates and prices. Other data (UK, Europe, Australia etc) usually come from AUS sites or UK sites (they often post all of them since they know just as well as we do the problems with the US ones. Unfortunately, Canada (and other countries like Mexico) which should really be covered by the US sites often aren't. If you can find one in a store then add it to the article, but I have a feeling Canada might be getting it later (Amazon.ca doesn't have a listing for it which seems to suggest they don't have a date for it; Amazon.co.uk has it for pre-order and it's out over here on the 16th of July). Alphathon^TM (talk) 13:46, 20 June 2010 (UTC)

Woah, Big sabotage!

Ok we've got a huge sabotage here in which someone have changed all the Xbox into "shitbox" (also Microsoft into "Microshite") Just saying to let moderators know... Hevehoc (talk) 16:44, 26 June 2010 (UTC)

Jacob Video!

I think we should make a page for the video "Jacob, Get Off the Xbox 360." It is one of the most watched YouTube videos, and after all, we have pages for all the other very popular online videos, such as Charlie bit my finger and David after dentist. Why not? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Autobotprowl (talk • contribs) 03:49, 6 July 2010 (UTC)

Main Image as new model?

Does anyone else think that the new model should be the main image for this article? Since the three displayed are all discontinued, I think it's a good idea to use the model in production as the image. Anyone else agree? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.227.110.7 (talk) 04:32, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

If by "the model in production" you mean the one next to the "Xbox 360 S" section, then no, not in it's current state. It certainly seems like a worthwhile thing to have there though, so I'll see about removing the background and splicing in an old model for comparison (it's really not that hard when you know what you're doing - the pic already in the infobox is actually 5 individual photos Photoshopped together; one of each console and one of each controller). Do you (an by you I mean the collective you) think I should use the Arcade or the Elite? (I'm thinking probably Arcade with HDD attached.) Alphathon^TM (talk) 10:43, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

Yes, I mean the Xbox 360 S. And what do you mean by "not in it's current state"? Also, do you mean that the image you're going to photoshop to compare the 360 s and an older model would be next to the "S" section, not in the infobox? and yeah i'd put the arcade with an HDD. sorry that i don't know how to reply the right way.. i'm not really a wikipedia editor per se... i just read it. lol —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.227.110.7 (talk) 22:31, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

I mean that the picture as it is won't go in the infobox before editing. As for the comparison, it will be something similar to the infobox pic, but using the S and the Arcade rather than all 3 old models, and from the other side (like the S pic is). All I need to do it photograph the old-style console at about the same angle and take it from there. The only tricky think might be the scale (there's not really any point of reference except maybe the length of the disk drive). Alphathon^TM (talk) 22:36, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

Oh, yeah yeah yeah, i know that it would have to be edited before going in the infobox. And yeah i see what you mean about the scale. good luck i guess, lol. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.227.110.7 (talk) 03:18, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

Xbox 360 S Picture vs Three Discontinued Xbox 360 models

Well it's not completely discontinued it's just that the new Xbox 360 S makes the Xbox 360 main picture more fresher :). You could put both systems on one picture but generally to have a neutral point-of-view show the updated version always like they do with the iPhone wikipedia article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.119.111.193 (talk) 09:16, 31 July 2010 (UTC)

Please see the discussion at the bottom of the page. Alphathon^TM (talk) 14:54, 31 July 2010 (UTC)

Xbox 360 S vs. Xbox 360 250 GB

Since multiple editors have disagreed with me on the use of "Xbox 360 S", I'd like to open up a discussion and explain my position. It is my view that "Xbox 360 S" does not refer to a model in the way "Xbox 360 Pro" does, but rather refers to the new console design, which will likely be used for numerous models. Following from the comparison with PlayStation 3's naming conventions, just because new Xbox 360 models will be only designated by storage capacity does not mean that storage capacity will the only differentiator between them, or even the most significant. They may be as different from each other as the Arcade is from the Elite. Based on this, things like the included hard drive, integrated Wi-Fi, 45 nm process, and number of USB ports should refer specifically to the new 250 GB model, rather than "Xbox 360 S".

Also, as I mentioned to one editor, Microsoft deliberately avoids using "Xbox 360 S" except in a product support context. Even now, most sources covering the new 250 GB model do not use the term. In more ways than one, prominently referring to "Xbox 360 S" in the same sense as "Xbox 360 Core" creates an immediate asymmetry between original models and new models, but with Wikipedia's common name principle, and with due weight.

As for potential confusion between the Xbox 360 250 GB and the special edition bundles featuring 250 GB hard disk drives, the bundles were special editions that were billed as such, and not standard issue. As I indicated in my edits, the manufacturer itself often referred to those special edition consoles as Super Elite. Either way, the consoles were somehow distinguished from regular Xbox 360 Elites, promoted as higher-end enthusiast options, and priced as such. The redesigned Xbox 360 250 GB is the only regular 250 GB model of Xbox 360, and the only Xbox 360 to include "250 GB" in the actual model designation. Microsoft does not promote two active console versions in the same model or budget category. Names like Core/Arcade, Pro, Elite, and Super Elite were used to differentiate budget tiers. All Microsoft is doing now is using storage capacity instead of individual names. Unless we are to start categorizing the consoles by motherboard version, to insist on an S "model" in the comparison table, presumably intended to encompass both the standard-tier model and the upcoming budget-tier model, works against the established organizational principle. Dancter (talk) 14:09, 18 July 2010 (UTC)

"It is my view that "Xbox 360 S" does not refer to a model in the way "Xbox 360 Pro" does, but rather refers to the new console design, which will likely be used for numerous models."

Agreed

"Based on this, things like the included hard drive, integrated Wi-Fi, 45 nm process, and number of USB ports should refer specifically to the new 250 GB model, rather than "Xbox 360 S""

Yes and no. as yet we do not know which of these will be a differentiator other than storage size. It is incredibly unlikely that the number of USB ports will be a differentiator and it is even less likely that the process used will be - it just wouldn't make sense. The process used is tied to the motherboard, so saying it has a 45 nm process is more equivalent to saying older models have a Jasper or Falcon etc. motherboard than saying it's an Elite or an Arcade.

"Unless we are to start categorizing the consoles by motherboard version, to insist on an S "model" in the comparison table, presumably intended to encompass both the standard-tier model and the upcoming budget-tier model, works against the established organizational principle."

That makes no sense - using the term "Xbox 360 S" does not indicate it's motherboard revision (well, it does at the moment, but that is only because it is new and hasn't had any revisions yet) it indicates the form factor, connectivity etc.

Here's how I see it: As it stands at the moment the new console is referred in the article as the "Xbox 360 S", rather than the "Xbox 360 250 GB". You object to this since it does not refer to the specific console but to the redesign. What I would say is this: The "S" is equivalent to the slim or the generations within the PS3 article. I think we need both. Have a section for the Xbox 30 S and once a new model has been released add sub-sections to the S section about each version. As far as we know the only difference between the models will be the size of the storage. We do not know if Wi-fi will be omitted, we do not know if the number of USB ports will change (unlikely; would make manufacturing more expensive) and it is almost certain that the process will not change unless it is related to a new hardware revision that does not make it to the other consoles for a while (like with the HDMI equipped mobos that were originally Elite only).

Basically once a new SKU is announced, change the "S" section to represent all models by using subsection like so:

===Xbox 360 S===

Info on redesign (announcement etc) and features which differentiate it from older models (smaller design, optical out, presumably 5 USB ports, redesigned hard drive, lack of MU ports etc)

====250 GB====

Info on this model

====4 GB====

Info on this model (I say 4 GB because there have been rumours that the new "low teir" model will be 4 GB as a 4 GB model appeared on Amazon Germany for a short time. It is unknown if this is real or if it is whether the storage is internal flash a la the newer Arcades, removable like the hard drives or an external pen drive like the original arcades had for the Memory units.)

Under this scheme older models could be grouped as such as well (I don't really think there is much of a need for discontinued models, so it could be called "Original Design (now discontinued)" or something to that effect rather than have a discontinued model section) like so:

===Original Design (now discontinued)===

====Premium/Pro====

====Core====

====Elite====

====Arcade====

====Super Elite====

As for the table, we could represent the originals and the "Ses" using a similar scheme as the generations system on the PS3 article.

Alphathon^TM (talk) 15:08, 18 July 2010 (UTC)

Yes and no. as yet we do not know which of these will be a differentiator other than storage size.

Wi-Fi is widely speculated to be omitted from the upcoming budget-tier model, and differentiating models by USB ports is not without precedent (e.g. PlayStation 3). If it is inaccurate to link the 45 nm process to a specific model, why would it be any more accurate to associate it with the overall "S" design, especially when the process changed several times under the original design? My point was that those features are not certain to apply to all "S" models, so they should be mentioned specifically in reference to the models which are confirmed to have them. Right now that's just the 250 GB model.

That makes no sense - using the term "Xbox 360 S" does not indicate it's motherboard revision (well, it does at the moment, but that is only because it is new and hasn't had any revisions yet) it indicates the form factor, connectivity etc.

What I meant was that "model" was being applied inconsistently in the comparison table, and that a categorization which would encompass both the 250 GB model and the forthcoming budget model only makes sense to me if the rest of the table is reorganized around motherboard revisions. Dancter (talk) 01:50, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

Basically once a new SKU is announced, change the "S" section to represent all models by using subsection like so:

I don't understand why there needs to be an announcement first, considering that Microsoft has otherwise confirmed the release of a new SKU in the Fall. Your proposed organization does not seem significantly different from the one I had before it was changed.

As for the table, we could represent the originals and the "Ses" using a similar scheme as the generations system on the PS3 article.

Although I referred to motherboard revisions, I was also amenable to SKU revisions. I'm not sure how Xbox 360 revisions can be grouped into generations, analogously to the PlayStation 3, but that's beside the point. The main suggestion was to order the table more chronologically. Dancter (talk) 01:50, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

"Wi-Fi is widely speculated to be omitted from the upcoming budget-tier model"

So what? Once we know that it is specific to the 250 GB model it can and should be reflected in the article but until then it is nothing but speculation. Also, the fact that they have said that they will only market it by storage size leads me to believe that it will be the only difference (although it wasn't the only difference on the 1st Gen PS3s).

"...and differentiating models by USB ports is not without precedent (e.g. PlayStation 3)."

No, it isn't, but the change from 4 to 2 USB port occurred in the PS3 during a redesign (which also removed PS2 backwards compatibility, flash-card readers and SACD support) so while not impossible is incredibly unlikely. I'll put it this way: if they manufacture one motherboard with 5 USB ports on it, it would cost them less due to mass production than if they had two with a different number of USB ports on it. If they have both versions they would not only need to manufacture two versions of the motherboard, but two versions of the case as well. It just doesn't seem like it would be justified to dump a few pennies worth of USB ports just to weaken the cheaper model. On the PS3 it was different since the old, 4 USB port, model was phased out when the new, 2 USB port model, was brought in. The Wi-fi add-on is a little different since it is simply an adapter which is plugged into the motherboard, so it at least makes sense.

"If it is inaccurate to link the 45 nm process to a specific model, why would it be any more accurate to associate it with the overall "S" design, especially when the process changed several times under the original design?"

It wouldn't. Under the current system it is described as "...redesigned internal architecture with the Valhalla motherboard, which allows for around 30% more space than previous motherboards and the XCGPU, an integrated CPU/GPU/eDRAM chip using a 45 nm fabrication process". That is more to do with the new motherboard, which is a total redesign for the new model than it is the "S". It could certainly be reworded to not imply that the Valhalla is necessarily the only "S" mobo, but other than that I don;t see the problem. (Maybe something like "...redesigned internal architecture which allows for around 30% more space than previous motherboards. The first "S" consoles use the Valhalla motherboard and the XCGPU, an integrated CPU/GPU/eDRAM chip using a 45 nm fabrication process")

"My point was that those features are not certain to apply to all "S" models, so they should be mentioned specifically in reference to the models which are confirmed to have them. Right now that's just the 250 GB model."

Fair enough, but as it stands the 250 GB model is all "S" model(s). Anything that implies features are only applicable to the 250 GB model would likely fall under original research unless it is presented purely as speculation (and with a reliable source pointing to that speculation).

"What I meant was that "model" was being applied inconsistently in the comparison table, and that a categorization which would encompass both the 250 GB model and the forthcoming budget model only makes sense to me if the rest of the table is reorganized around motherboard revisions."

How does that make sense? Why would you organise the table around mobo revisions when there have been so many different combination of SKU and mobo? Apart from anything else what would be the purpose of organising it by mobo? I agree it was applied inconsistently (by me) but you have to realise when that edit was made. This was only days after the E3 announcement so obviously I didn't have all the info. That said I think you are missing the point. The "categorization which would encompass both the 250 GB model and the forthcoming budget model" is "new form factor". Just to make it easier to understand what I mean, something like this:

Form Factor	SKU	Storage	HDMI	Appearance	Accessories/Bundled Items		Suggested Retail Price	First Available	In Prod.
Xbox 360 S	250 GB	250 GB HDD	Yes	Gloss black Gloss black disc drive	Wireless controller Wired Headset Composite video cable		$299.99 $299.99 £199.99 €249.99 $449.00 $499.00	NA: June 18, 2010 AU July 1, 2010 NZ July 8, 2010 EU: July 16, 2010	Yes
Xbox 360	Elite	250 GB HDD	Yes	Matte black Chrome disc drive	Ethernet cable Wired Headset Composite video cable	2 wireless controllers	$399.99 $399.99 £249.99 €329.99 $599.00	October 23, 2009	No
		120 GB HDD				1 wireless controller	$299.99 $299.99 £199.99 €299.99 ¥29,800 $549.00	April 29, 2007	No
	Arcade	512 MB onboard	Yes	Matte white Matte white disc drive	Wireless controller Composite video cable Xbox Live Arcade compilation disc (not included with all units)		$199.99 $149.99 £159.99 €179.99 ¥19,800 $299.00	June 2009	No
		256 MB onboard						December 2008	No
		256 MB memory unit						October 23, 2007
	Pro	60 GB HDD	Yes	Matte white Chrome disc drive	Wireless controller Ethernet cable Wired Headset Hybrid video cable		$249.99 $299.99 £169.99 €239.99 ¥29,800 $399.00	September 1, 2008	No
		20 GB HDD	After 2007					November 22, 2005	No
	Core	None	No	Matte white Matte white disc drive	Wired controller Composite video cable		$279.99 £199.99 ¥27,800	November 22, 2005	No

The actual headings obviously need some thinking, but I think you get the gist. It could be done in a similar way to how I organised the generations on the PS3 page (colour coding) or with a column in the table. What really matters is that there is some differentiating factor between the old and new versions.

"I don't understand why there needs to be an announcement first, considering that Microsoft has otherwise confirmed the release of a new SKU in the Fall. Your proposed organization does not seem significantly different from the one I had before it was changed."

Maybe it doesn't need an announcement first, but there is a difference between what you had and what I suggested. You had two sections: "current models" and "discontinued models". This is not the same as my "Xbox 360 S" and "Original Design" sections. Also, you put far too much of the info into the 250 GB section (rather than the one dealing with the "S"). Here is what you had:

Current Models

The current Xbox 360 is a redesign from the original Xbox 360, announced during Microsoft's press briefing prior to E3 2010. Technically distinguished as "Xbox 360 S," the console redesign is marketed simply as the "new Xbox 360." Xbox 360 models released following the redesign do not have individual names, and are designated solely by storage capacity.

It was speculated that a complete redesign of the Xbox 360 hardware was being produced after pictures of a possible new motherboard design surfaced on March 17, 2010. Ads later surfaced on June 13, 2010 showing a slimmer Xbox 360 design, which was expected to include a 250 GB hard drive and integrated Wi-Fi functionality.

Xbox 360 250 GB

The Xbox 360 250 GB (not to be confused with the special edition 250 GB "Super" Elite), officially announced on June 14, 2010, is the first Xbox 360 S model, replacing the Xbox 360 Elite at the US$300 price tier. It is smaller and quieter than the previous versions and is based around an integrated CPU/GPU chip using a 45nm fabrication process and redesigned internal architecture. It includes a 250 GB HDD, 5 USB ports (2 more than previous models) and a custom AUX port for use with peripherals such as the Kinect sensor. Unlike its predecessors, it also features integrated 802.11 b/g/n Wi-Fi and a TOSLINK S/PDIF optical audio connector, allowing for digital audio and wireless networking without the need for an external adapter. The Xbox 360 Memory Unit slots found on previous consoles have been removed in favor of the USB flash drive solution added in a system software update on March 26, 2010. The power and DVD drive eject 'buttons' are touch sensitive rather than physical buttons and the 250 GB internal hard drive is swappable though not compatible with other models of Xbox 360 and is not simply a standard drive. Other notable changes include the use of one larger fan compared to the previous Xbox 360 models (which used two smaller ones) and the design of the vents, which are not unlike those used on the original Xbox.

The new model was shipped to US retailers the same day and will go on sale later in the week. In Australia it will be released on July 1, 2010, in New Zealand on July 8, 2010 and in Europe on July 16, 2010. The new model will cost US$299.99, GB£199, AU$449.00, NZ$499.00 or €249.00. When the new Xbox 360 begins shipping, remaining stock of the Elite package will drop in price to US$249.99 or AU$349 and the Arcade will drop to US$149.99.

Discontinued Models

...

...and here is what I am proposing:

Xbox 360 S

The Xbox 360 S (marketed simply as the Xbox 360) is a redesign of the Xbox 360 hardware which was officially announced on June 14, 2010. The initial new model includes a 250 GB hard drive and replaced the Xbox 360 Elite at the US$300 price tier. A second package, set to release at the Xbox 360 Arcade's US$200 price point, is currently in development and due for release in the autumn of 2010 in the US. Unlike previous generations of the console which had names to distinguish different SKUs, the new models are to be marketed solely by the amount of included storage, in a similar fashion to current models of its main competitor the PlayStation 3.

The Xbox 360 S features redesigned internal architecture with the Valhalla motherboard, which allows for around 30% more space than previous motherboards and the XCGPU, an integrated CPU/GPU/eDRAM chip using a 45 nm fabrication process. This allows it to be both smaller and quieter than the previous versions of the Xbox 360. It includes 5 USB 2.0 ports (2 more than previous models) and an additional custom USB port for use with peripherals such as the Kinect sensor. Unlike its predecessors, it also features integrated 2.4 GHz 802.11 b/g/n Wi-Fi and a TOSLINK S/PDIF optical audio connector, allowing for digital audio and wireless networking without the need for external adapters. The Memory Unit slots found on previous consoles have been removed in favor of the USB flash drive solution added in a previous system software update (released on April 6, 2010). The power and DVD drive eject 'buttons' are touch sensitive rather than the physical buttons found on previous models. The external hard disk drive connector has also been swapped for an internal bay. This requires the use of a proprietary hard drive which is neither standard or compatible with older models. Other notable hardware changes include the use of one larger fan compared to the previous Xbox 360 models (which used two smaller ones) and the design of the vents, which are similar to those used on the original Xbox. The finish of the casing (as well as parts of the controller shipped with the console) has also been changed from matte to a glossy finish.

When the new Xbox 360 began shipping, remaining stock of the Elite package dropped in price to US$249.99 or AU$349 and the Arcade dropped to US$149.99.

Xbox 360 S 250 GB

The Xbox 360 S 250 GB (marketed as the Xbox 360 250 GB) was the first Xbox 360 S model to be announced and includes a 250 GB hard drive. The 250 GB model was shipped to US retailers the same day it was announced and went on sale later that week. It was available in Australia on July 1, 2010, in New Zealand on July 8, 2010 and in Europe on July 16, 2010. The new model retails at US$299.99, GB£199, AU$449.00, NZ$499.00 or €249.00.

Original Form Factor

...

Anyway, I've rambled long enough and I probably haven't been all too coherent (it's 4:38am here...I really need to go to bed ) Alphathon^TM(talk) 03:39, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

Something else I've just thought of: both 120GB and 250GB Elites are classed as Elites. Their model is down as Elite but they are differentiated in the table only by HDD size. Why is the "Xbox 360 S" any different? Until we have further info suggesting missing/different features in the budget model, why shouldn't both be treated as the same model, but different bundles or editions (or something to that effect). Besides, it seems a little redundant to have "Model: 250 GB", "HDD size: 250 GB". Honestly, I think that was my original reasoning for reverting your changes back in June. Alphathon^TM (talk) 03:54, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

So what? Once we know that it is specific to the 250 GB model it can and should be reflected in the article but until then it is nothing but speculation. Also, the fact that they have said that they will only market it by storage size leads me to believe that it will be the only difference (although it wasn't the only difference on the 1st Gen PS3s).

Now that we do know, much of what I have to say is essentially moot.

No, it isn't, but the change from 4 to 2 USB port occurred in the PS3 during a redesign (which also removed PS2 backwards compatibility, flash-card readers and SACD support) so while not impossible is incredibly unlikely.

My mistake. I was thinking about the first-generation PS3s, but was confusing USB ports with the flash card slots when I wrote those things.

Fair enough, but as it stands the 250 GB model is all "S" model(s).

My argument was based on the fact that my version of the text would remain mostly true regardless of what happens with future models, and the another version may have required revision depending on new developments.

Anything that implies features are only applicable to the 250 GB model would likely fall under original research unless it is presented purely as speculation (and with a reliable source pointing to that speculation).

I'm not new to Wikipedia. I understand what original research is, and fail to see how anything in this discussion necessitated that you point that out to me. I started this thread commenting that the article implied things that weren't borne out by the sources. You were claiming the same about my edits. I am also not the only one here who put forth arguments based on particular assumptions. Just because yours ended up right does not change that. The fact is that article content written according Wikipedia's principles can only be as clear as the sources it uses. If either of us was able to provide a definitive source a few days ago, this discussion would have been much shorter. I included no extraneous text or phrasing to imply something beyond what was verifiable and relevant. The possibility that something could be read to mean something outside what it states is a reality of language. I cannot prevent incautious or speculative readers from deriving false conclusions from a passage because they are seeking facts that aren't available.

How does that make sense? Why would you organise the table around mobo revisions when there have been so many different combination of SKU and mobo? Apart from anything else what would be the purpose of organising it by mobo? I agree it was applied inconsistently (by me) but you have to realise when that edit was made. This was only days after the E3 announcement so obviously I didn't have all the info. That said I think you are missing the point. The "categorization which would encompass both the 250 GB model and the forthcoming budget model" is "new form factor".

I was just trying to make sense of your edit. I don't know what info you would've needed that I hadn't already added previously, which my reverted (minor) edit was merely following up. What you claim to mean here would not involve undoing my edit.

Maybe it doesn't need an announcement first, but there is a difference between what you had and what I suggested. You had two sections: "current models" and "discontinued models". This is not the same as my "Xbox 360 S" and "Original Design" sections. Also, you put far too much of the info into the 250 GB section (rather than the one dealing with the "S").

The "current models" and "discontinued models" sections were there before I made my edits, and to be frank, they smack of recentism. I was merely trying to fit new developments into what I presumed to be the consensus article structure. Again, what you proposed would not require undoing my heading change. Just rename the other headings and you should essentially have the sections you suggested. Dancter (talk) 18:44, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

Something else I've just thought of: both 120GB and 250GB Elites are classed as Elites. Their model is down as Elite but they are differentiated in the table only by HDD size. Why is the "Xbox 360 S" any different? Until we have further info suggesting missing/different features in the budget model, why shouldn't both be treated as the same model, but different bundles or editions (or something to that effect). Besides, it seems a little redundant to have "Model: 250 GB", "HDD size: 250 GB". Honestly, I think that was my original reasoning for reverting your changes back in June. Alphathon^TM (talk) 03:54, 19 July 2010 (UTC)

Again, neither my edits to the article nor my comments here were necessarily a defense of any pre-existing article structure. Like many edits on Wikipedia, my edits were incremental revisions. Just because I did not change something does not mean I necessarily approve of it. Why is the Arcade listed after the Elite, but before the Pro? As long as it is consistent, I don't much care about how the table is structured. Since it effectively reestablished the enthusiast tier that was vacated when the Pro was discontinued, grouping the more expensive special edition 250 GB bundling in with the 120 GB Elite does not seem consistent to me, especially when the accessory set was different (2 wireless controllers, according to the table). Even considering that they both share "Elite" naming, it is qualitatively different than with the Pro, in which the 80 GB edition was a full and permanent replacement for the discontinued 20 GB edition, selling at the same general price point. If not budget tiers, what exactly is the fundamental difference between "models" and "bundles" or "editions," anyway? The fact that Microsoft is now shifting to identifying consoles primarily by a distinguishing spec like storage size only underscores how messy the old naming system became. Now the company doesn't have to get so "creative" with naming or configuration when shuffling your lineup. If the special edition 250 GB bundles are even worth listing beyond a footnote (the table does not account for other special editions such as the RE5 bundle), I would suggest listing them separately under the "Super Elite" name Microsoft sometimes used. Dancter (talk) 18:44, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

Hmm, looks like Microsoft has provided . So, I have added the 4GB model to the article and table using the current format. It is the same as the 250GB version other than 4GB internal flash vs. 250GB HDD (check the refs). As that is the case, the only possible solution seems to be (to me) is to have the "S" as a super-section with the others (250GB & 4GB) as sub-sections with release dates and prices (and description of the storage). Alphathon^TM(talk) 18:26, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

For the same reason I do not favor grouping the 250 GB and 120 GB Elites together, I do not agree with grouping the 4 GB and 250 GB S consoles under an S "model". Dancter (talk) 18:44, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

OK, what do you suggest then. It is fairly pointless to say "I disagree with this formatting" unless you propose an alternative. This is not a subject with a default value, so a decision must be made.

Here is what we have:

• Xbox 360 (Pro/Premium) 20GB
• Xbox 360 (Pro/Premium) 60GB
• Xbox 360 Core
• Xbox 360 Elite 120GB
• Xbox 360 (Super) Elite 250GB
• Xbox 360 Arcade
• Xbox 360 (S) 250GB
• Xbox 360 (S) 4GB

Brackets (parentheses) indicate unofficial names; i.e. those not used by marketing.

Let's stick with the table for the time being (since discussing both at the same time would probably get confusing very quickly. How would you divide them up so that it made sense and you didn't introduce redundancy (i.e. calling it a 250GB Elite while having the storage size column)? Incidentally, how would you categorise the Elites? Do you have a problem with the Pro? It is two different SKUs separated by HDD size after all. What about the various sized arcades? I think the issue here is mainly the labelling - the fact that the word used is model.

At the moment, this is how it is divided:

Model	Storage sizes
Xbox 360 (Pro/Premium)	20GB
	60GB
Xbox 360 Core	—
Xbox 360 Elite	120GB
	250GB
Xbox 360 Arcade	256MB ext
	256MB int
	512MB int
Xbox 360 (S)	4GB int
	250GB

These are the divisions imposed by MS by their naming scheme. It is complicated slightly by the fact that neither the Pro/Premium or the S are official names - both are officially called "Xbox 360". For now, let's use the unofficial names for descriptive reasons only (i.e. to tell them apart).

Classifying both Elites as Elites is simply fact - it is Microsoft's term and that is what matters - Super Elite is a useful term so as to not have to say 250GB Elite (less syllables) but other than that is nothing more than a nick-name.

Perhaps you have a completely different system in mind (please not the one based on motherboards ), I don't know, but other than minor wording I don't see that there is any better way to organise the table without being redundant.

P.S. This is a bit of a stream of consciousness, and I keep getting distracted, so may not read particularly well. I apologise in advance for that.

Alphathon^TM (talk) 20:57, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

Actually, what about this?

Model	Storage sizes
Xbox 360 (Pro/Premium)	20GB
	60GB
Xbox 360 Core	—
Xbox 360 Elite	120GB
	250GB
Xbox 360 Arcade	256MB ext
	256MB int
	512MB int
N/A	4GB int
	250GB

Could work, although technically the model is still Xbox 360 S (as on the back of the units), since MS don't actually give it a name, might be a good solution...could be confusing though.

...or this?

Model	Storage sizes
Xbox 360 (Pro/Premium)	20GB
	60GB
Xbox 360 Core	—
Xbox 360 Elite	120GB
	250GB
Xbox 360 Arcade	256MB ext
	256MB int
	512MB int
4GB int
250GB

Don't really like this one as-is, but it might look better in the actual table, since the rows will be taller.

Just putting ideas out there. Basically just scribbling ideas down to get my head straight. Alphathon^TM (talk) 21:13, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

Xbox 360 in the Army

I think it should be dually noted that soldiers in Iraq and Afghanistan play xbox via Xbox live. They play games like halo 3, modern warfare 2, and others. Bungie studios worked with Microsoft in 2007 to place facilities in the two countries where soldiers could go in their off time. the Xbox 360 and its games are used by soldiers to train for battle. using these devices to desensitize soldiers is morally and ethically wrong. Let it also be known that the 360 controller is used to control Robots such as the Talon and the RedOwl which are Anti-sniper and infantry robots (they kill people). If you join west point military academy, you receive an xbox 360 which you can take with you over seas when you go. And YES, it is very possible that when your child plays one of those games online that he or she is playing with soldiers. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Death by kronos (talk • contribs) 01:30, 2 August 2010 (UTC)

While that may very well all be true you seem to be missing a few things:

• Everything you have said has an anti-military bias. Bias of any kind is forbidden on Wikipedia.
• The fact that the 360 is used by military personnel is fairly irrelevant to a discussion about the console itself.
• So what if the controller is used to control military robots? It may have some relevance in the Xbox 360 Controller article, but not here.

Just a few more personal notes. If your "child" is playing Halo 3 or Modern Warfare 2 then you are a bad parent (generally speaking - this assumes that a "child" is not above the age the game is rated for - in the UK MW2 is an 18 and in the US it is M/17+. Halo 3 is UK 15 and US M/17+). That has no bearing on an encyclopaedia - encyclopaedias deal with facts, not moral positions (even articles about moral positions are fact based). Please take you anti-military/anti-video-games propaganda elsewhere. Alphathon^TM (talk) 01:44, 2 August 2010 (UTC)

Alphathon: Your tone seems to be a little unfriendly, please be respectful and tone it down--Brainiack16 (talk) 22:19, 2 August 2010 (UTC)

Yeah, sorry about that. Was having a bit of a bad day yesterday and it was like 2:45am when I posted. I felt I was saying as it was but it would seem I chucked AGF out the window :/. Oh well, I stand my the actual issues I brought up, but I apologise for being so aggressive and negative. Alphathon^TM (talk) 22:38, 2 August 2010 (UTC)

Edit request from Amudqr45a, 18 August 2010

Editsemiprotected Infobox CVG system

Amudqr45a (talk) 23:34, 18 August 2010 (UTC)

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In case anyone is wondering what the user actually wants changed, the user wants the manufacturer in the infobox changed from Foxconn to Flextronics. Seems like a good edit, but I'm not that intimately familiar with the details to make it. Ryan Norton 23:41, 18 August 2010 (UTC)

If you wish to change something tell us what you want to change, do not simply post the modified infobox. Quote: "the request must be of the form "please change X to Y". As Ryan Norton said, it looks like you want to change "Foxconn" to "Flextronics". Is that the only change? Also, the ref on the Flextronics page suggests it should be "Flextronics, Celestica" anyway. Alphathon^TM (talk) 23:49, 18 August 2010 (UTC)

 Done. Also added Wistron Corporation and Celestica since they are also in the ref. Alphathon^TM (talk) 00:10, 19 August 2010 (UTC)

Edit Request

This is a simple edit request. In the section about Xbox 360 games there is a sentence that reads:

"Six games were initially available in Japan, while eagerly anticipated titles such as Dead or Alive 4 and Enchanted Arms were released in the preceding weeks."

Checking the citation after the statement, I discovered that the games were released in the weeks following the console's release, not the preceding weeks. I suggest you change the sentence to:

"Six games were initially available in Japan, while eagerly anticipated titles such as Dead or Alive 4 and Enchanted Arms were available in the weeks following the console's release." —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dpisacane (talk • contribs) 03:29, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

 Done, more or less (used "launch" instead of "release"). Alphathon^TM (talk) 10:52, 23 August 2010 (UTC)

Minor Edit Request

First paragraph under "Current Models" ends "that years E3." It should read "that year's E3." (Add an apostrophe.) Zabacad (talk) 18:10, 27 August 2010 (UTC)

 Done. Thanks for pointing it out :) Alphathon™ (talk) 19:02, 27 August 2010 (UTC)