Talk:Yoruba people/Archive 2

Archive 1

Archive 2

Archive 3

Yoruba and Gur group.

Talisman-white It is really sad to see how you are trying to turn your editing privileges into ethnic/religious and tribal name calling. Wikipedia is about spreading credible and verifiable information. If you have any issue with any edit on Yoruba people article simply come over to the talk page and discuss it. I hereby invite you to discuss the issue of how Yoruba are related with Hausa people and how they are not related to Gur group.Ppdallo (talk) 08:42, 8 September 2021 (UTC) From Talisman-white,

Claims made:

1) I am trying to turn my editing privileges into ethnic/religious and tribal name calling. Disagreed

2) Wikipedia is about spreading credible and verifiable information. Agreed -Oluwatalisman (talk)

Talisman-white These are your words: "Are you keeping alphabetical order or the order of number of adherents? You are clearly keeping some kind of propaganda order. I have been editing on this page for over a year and this is how it has always been until you and your malo buddy showed up claiming you were fixing vandalism by changing information around." The word "Malo" is a derogatory Yoruba word for Hausa person.Ppdallo (talk) 13:35, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

I didn't respond to this earlier because I just got disgusted and moved on. It is either you don't know anything about Yoruba words or this was a setup relying on the fact that the admins may not know whether or not it was a Yoruba word and whether it was derogatory. The fact is it is not a Yoruba word, or derogatory. It is a word mainly used by northerners in their own self-description [1]. The first few pictures show northerners using it in self-praise. Please try not to lie. -Oluwatalisman (talk) 02:36, 23 September 2021 (UTC)

Oluwatalisman The original word is "Malam" which the Yoruba pronounce as Mola due to the problem they have pronouncing multiple letters "a" withing a single Hausa word. Malo derives from Mola and is used by young Yorubas to deregatory refer to a Hausa person. Furthermore, I dont know how you come to the conclusion that those pictures are of Hausa boys and posted by Hausa boys.
Ppdallo (talk) 09:07, 23 September 2021 (UTC)

Ppdallo I did not come to the conclusion that those are Hausas. Where in my statement did you see the claim that those are Hausas? And malo cannot be an abbreviation from malam because Yoruba words retain tonality in abbreviation. The short-form of Oluwa retains the same tonality as it presents in Olu. Also, the short form for the name Taiyewo retains the same tonality as it is presented in Taye. If the tonality changed in the state of abbreviation, the language you're speaking isn't Yoruba. Also, it's funny that suddenly you understand that a word can begin in one language and end up different, in a completely different language. I will let this response section preface the rest of the conversation found in the Etymology 2 section below. Thank you -Oluwatalisman (talk) 23:54, 25 September 2021 (UTC)

Requests made:

3) Come over to the talk page and discuss it.

4) Discuss the issue of how Yoruba are related with Hausa people and how they are not related to Gur group. -Oluwatalisman (talk)

Existing discussions

The Bariba and Oyo have extensive history. The Yoruba in Benin and Togo are intertwined with the smaller Gur groups. There are Yoruba in Northern Ghana for centuries. Please don't remove content without contrasting evidence --See [2] -Oluwatalisman, extracted from view history (talk)

Talisman-white This map is unverifiable. I have just removed it based on previous discussions I had with Oramfe

Yoruba are related to Hausa by culture and the fusion of Oyo people and Hausa people in the city of Ilorin. -Ppdallo, extracted from view history (talk)

Do not come to this page with this. Hausa are literally a chadic group with R1B haplogroup markers. They are camel based and sahelian. Yorubas share genetic traits with the Ewe and Ga. Ilorin was taken by conquest not by willing association. Please refrain from posting nonsense --See [3] -Oluwatalisman, extracted from view history (talk)

Related ethnic groups is not just by haplogroup markers. It is as well by culture and history. What connects a Mossi to Yoruba? If Hausa is related to Ebira and Nupe it is by history and culture. Stop using abusive language here. It is all about the facts and not ethnic ego. -Ppdallo, extracted from view history (talk)

What connects Mossi to Yoruba is literally everything you are falesly trying to claim significantly connects Yoruba to Hausa [4], [5], [6] Yoruba speaking people are part of a continuum of Coastal and Savannah West Africans that share zero Chadic identity and do not wish to -Oluwatalisman, extracted from view history (talk)

Talisman-white Do you believe that these unverifiable images are enough to link Yoruba with with Mossi or any Gur group? I cant believe this is coming from you.Ppdallo (talk) 13:35, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

There is no substantial historical connection between Yoruba and Hausas. This leaves culture and the only thing listed has been the talking drum, something not centrally representative of Hausa culture but an attempt to dig out whimsical links. Presenting fact is not about forcing associations, but showing meaningful, self-evident and verifiable claims. Talking drums fail at the meaningful part -Oluwatalisman, extracted from view history (talk)

Yoruba has wholly adopted Hausa clothing from everyday clothing style right up to their traditional institutions. There is no any other forest people in southern Nigeria that look so much "Hausa" in their dress style as the Yoruba. The "talking drum" is called Kalangu in Hausa and they are the only people using it in the entire Sahel region, except the forest Yoruba -Ppdallo, extracted from view history (talk)

See Mossi Gur people with talking drums [7]. and there are more, it is a big part of West African Niger-Congo traditions. We are not chadic -Oluwatalisman, extracted from view history (talk)

Talisman-white This is an unverifiable imagePpdallo (talk) 13:35, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

I bet this is an unverifiable page as well [8] and the clothing part follows suit. I don't know where you get this idea that Yorubas have 100% adopted Hausa clothes. How many Yoruba people do you see in turbans??? -Oluwatalisman (talk) 02:36, 23 September 2021 (UTC)

Yoruba has NOT adopted Hausa style on clothing for reasons that they are Hausa. The same style of clothing can be seen 10 times moreso among any of the Gur people directly interfacing with the Yoruba, and these same Gur groups themselves have talking drums and eat yams as staple meals along with the Yorubas. Refrain from using this page for propaganda --See [9]. -Oluwatalisman, extracted from view history (talk)

Talisman-white This is an unverifiable imagePpdallo (talk) 13:35, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

Lets move to Yoruba talk page. Yoruba adopted Hausa clothing 100%. Yoruba have never interfaced with any Gur group in their entire history. All individual tribes comprising Gur groups are very small in population and they each neighbor Hausa people and their culture is heavily influenced by the larger Hausa. Name one Gur tribe using the Kalangu or the so called "talking drum" and what they call it in their language. So you are now claiming yam as Yoruba staple food??? Wonders never end. LOL -Ppdallo, extracted from view history (talk)

Notice the reference to Africa lists the Yoruba dish Iyan, there is a reason why it is the only one that made the page and is rumored to be the reason for the high twin rate of the Yoruba ethnic group. When another ethnic group is used as an example for Africas Yam consumption, you can come back to me on this. It is also a known fact in Ghana that Dgagombas eat pounded Yam, along with the Ewe and this is one thing that distinguishes them from the groups west of the Volta river. [10] -Oluwatalisman (talk)

Talisman-white Wikipedia cannot be a reference unto itselfPpdallo (talk) 13:35, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

The gur groups using the talking drum is here [11]. And notice text on the Yoruba and Gur Dagomba usually go together. That is because they are neighboring ethnicities and their particular drum usages grew side-by-side. Furthermore, they are not a small tribe and they are not next to the Hausa. They are literally next to the Yoruba speaking people in Togo as you can see the Nago and the Itcha Yoruba of Togo in blue and the Dagomaba in Yellow [12]. And when I give you a Wikipedia article, go through the citations. Nobody is going to pluck the citations one by one for you. Follow the numbers on the page, gosh. -Oluwatalisman (talk) 02:36, 23 September 2021 (UTC)

Yoruba are not related to Gur peoples -Ppdallo, extracted from view history (talk)

Talking drum is not Yoruba musical instrument -Ppdallo, extracted from view history (talk)

Looks like more Niger-Congo groups have it than Chadic groups [13] It would seem it expanded from the many Niger-Congo groups to the one Chadic group and not otherwise and by the way, there are your regional names so you can stop saying that Yorubas using talking drums is evidence of some links to Hausas; we have never needed association with Hausas for either our drum culture or our clothing; there are many nearer groups for that and historical trades routes to go with that. Your group is chadic and afro-asiatic, with with a highly conservative culture and even henna which is from the far east and nowhere close to other closer Yoruba ethno-linguistic influences -Oluwatalisman (talk)

Talisman-white Wikipedia cannot be a reference unto itself. Besides, google any of those so called native names for the talking drum and see if the hourglass drum will show up. However, do the same with the Hausa name of Kalangu and see for yourself. Do Yoruba have a history of leather tanning? How could they make the talking drum?Ppdallo (talk) 13:35, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

At this point you're just being insulting. Hourglass shaped drums are not unique to Hausa people. Literally, click the link and go through the page references. And the African variant is nowhere attributed to Hausas. Since you brought up google, here: [14]; nowhere does it say Hausa, but it does say it was invented by the Ghana Empire, which was Niger–Congo. In regard to Yoruba history, Encyclopedia Britannica tells you all you need to know [15]] about leatherworking. And in regard to the trade routes, [16]. -Oluwatalisman (talk) 03:12, 23 September 2021 (UTC)

Removed Hausa from Related section -Oluwatalisman, extracted from view history (talk)

There is countless evidence of cultural continuity between the Yoruba and the various Gur people, especially those who live adjacent within Benin and Togo. Yoruba King: [17] Mossi King (Moro Noba): [18] -Oluwatalisman, extracted from view history (talk)

Talisman-white Unverifiable imagePpdallo (talk) 13:35, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

Reverted from vandalism. I don't know why Hausa boys are coming here to reduce our population numbers. -Oluwatalisman, extracted from view history (talk)

Fixed population numbers according to latest reported evaluations of US CIA factbook from 2018 estimates -Oluwatalisman, extracted from view history (talk)

Yoruba are not related to Gur groups but are related to Hausa culturally and historically. Also population figure is false. -Ppdallo, extracted from view history (talk)

Yoruba is related to Hausa by culture and history. The name "Yoruba" is also a Hausa word. Also Somba in Northern Benin and Togo being Niger-Congo is the same thing as Fulani Language being Niger-Congo. Or Hausa and Hebrew being Afro-Asiatic -Ppdallo, extracted from view history (talk)

I agree that every one in the Niger Congo Language groups are collectively more related to one another than to members of an external language group such as Afro-Asiatic and Chadic as the Hausa are [19] And this is an anecdote: [20] -Oluwatalisman, extracted from view history (talk)

Talisman-white That map is unverifiable. I have removed itPpdallo (talk) 13:35, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

More existing discussions:

1. You know that claimed relation is tantamount to garbage. I have already discussed with you months ago that there is nothing significantly connecting the Yorubas and the Hausas as you remain to admit. Let me reiterate -Oluwatalisman, extracted from user talk page (talk)

A. The Hausa people are a CHADIC group with strong R1b Haplogroup markers, which further connects them with other chadic groups. Yoruba haplogroup e1b1a=92. Mossi haplogroup e1b1a=90. Hausa haplogroup e1b1a=12. Conclusion: Yorubas and Gur are not significantly genetically related to Hausas; which is obvious unless such claims were politically motivated. --See [21] and arrange by the e1b1a column -Oluwatalisman, extracted from user talk page (talk)

B. The Hausa people historically have very Sahelio-Islamic clothing mannerisms. These are clearly capturred by the use of Turbans, Camels, Garbs, which are in sharp contrast with anything traditionally Yoruba. A clear depiction is the image of the caravan and the wailer. It is clear where the camel riders are from and where the wrapped woman is not from. Neither the Nupe, the Gbagyi, the Ebira, nor the Edo have ever ridden camels culturally or engaged in turbaned and other Islamic form of clothing or displays. How you skipped all those groups and claim association with Yoruba is quite an impressive leap of faith. If I was not from a West African community, I might not even realize the underlying political motivations. --Hausa [22]; [23] -Oluwatalisman, extracted from user talk page (talk)

Talisman-white This images are meaningless to this discussionPpdallo (talk) 13:35, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

Ppdallo I'll give you one of two options: you can measure the degree to which they are meaningless, or you can accept them for the fact that you cannot refute them. -Oluwatalisman, extracted from user talk page (talk)

C. Language group: Afro-Asiatic vs Niger-Congo|Volta-Niger. Another self-evident point. Hausas share Afro-Asiatic language classification with other Chadic groups. Neither the Yoruba nor the Gur do. --See [24] -Oluwatalisman, extracted from user talk page (talk)

Talisman-white This doe not make sense as I have earlier told you Yoruba is related to Hausa by culture and history of the city of IlorinPpdallo (talk) 13:35, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

The history of Ilorin is the history of invasion. The fulanis invaded the Yorubas in Ilorin and nobody in their right minds is related by invasion --and that still has nothing to do with the Hausas except that the Fulanis probably had some Hausas in their company. That is like saying that Punjabis are related to Greeks because they were among the Persian ranks when the Persians attacked Greece. -Oluwatalisman (talk) 03:40, 23 September 2021 (UTC)

D. Do this Math: 219,463,862 * 0.155. If the answer is 34016898.61, then why do you keep on reverting the population figures on this page? Is it political or is it just dishonesty? -Oluwatalisman, extracted from user talk page (talk)

Talisman-white ??????Ppdallo (talk) 13:35, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

E. Yorubas do not begin and end in Nigeria. The Gur groups in Benin and Togo are seamless with the Yoruba communities in the North of those countries and it did not take religious conquest. What the Nupes, Ebira, and Edos are to those in Nigeria is what they are to the ones in Togo and Benin and that expands on to the Ewe/Ga and the Dagomba by weak extension, but extension nonetheless. The way we interact is what true relation looks like, not political motivated drivel. --See -Oluwatalisman, extracted from user talk page (talk)

Talisman-white There is no Yoruba in Northern Benin, Togo or Ghana. Even the Mokole language distinct from Yoruba.Ppdallo (talk) 13:35, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

This is the Encyclopedia Britannica literally saying that there is Yoruba in "Benin and northern Togo." [25] Is that also unverifiable to you? I'm asking -Oluwatalisman (talk) 02:36, 23 September 2021 (UTC)

F. The biggest point you have is that the name Yoruba originated from the Hausa group. It is also worth noting that the term native American came from Europeans, and the continent of Asia was named by people west of the black sea. In all these listed cases, at least, they were named during travel. It bears mentioning that the the term was not even exchanged during contact but by a mutual visitor who asked the Hausas what the Yorubas were called to which they answered Yariba(or a variant). How that amounts to relatedness is less evident of worthy historical deliverable information but more evident of political motivations. -Oluwatalisman, extracted from user talk page (talk)

Talisman-white The Yoruba was given to Oyo people by Hausa people(Please see etymology section). So if the name was given only to Oyo people and later applied to some other people in the later part of 1800s how then could it be part of "earlier" Yoruba history? There is no monolithic tribe called Yoruba. Only OyosPpdallo (talk) 13:35, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

Ppdallo Are you dense? Is this your point that the name initially applying to only Oyos makes Hausa related to all speakers of the native language that is now considered Yoruba along the coast and in the savannah areas of West Africa? Evidently, it turns out Hausas knew even less about the current group if they could only identitfy its most active subset, so if not for Oyo's fame, they would know nothing about the ethnic group at all. And even you have to admit that saying there is no monolithic tribe called Yoruba in today's day and age pits you against the United Nations. If this is the kind of authority you are relying on to make changes on the page of an ethnic group that is not adjacent to yours by more than 3 degrees of other ethnic groups, you have either shown your hand or your incompetence. You should take notes, not liberties.

G. When you are not related genetically, by geographical adjacency, by language classification, by primary clothing habits and dress customs, by majority religion, by obvious behavioral idiosyncrasies reflected through worldview, how in the heck are you related? Sounds political, I might have missed it if I had not studied West African culture -Oluwatalisman, extracted from user talk page (talk)

Talisman-white Yorubas first major religion is Islam. Get hold of any Ordinary level west African history text book and educate yourself about that. Also Yoruba dress is from Hausa. I chalenge you to cite any credible source for the so called Yoruba dress.Ppdallo (talk) 13:35, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

Ppdallo: This is another showing of your hand that you are trying to Islamicize Yorubas through Wikipedia edits and forced relation with the expansionist philosophies that emanate from sects of known of your group. Otherwise, you would have left the page the way you met it when you stumbled onto it. If I told you that the first major religion of the Yoruba speaking people is the widely recognized Yoruba traditional religion would you dispute it? And to what measure would you go to tell me that a religion shared by multitudes of people which has found its way to over 3 continents and has existed for longer than anybody can remember for those multitudes is not sufficiently major? And how, without more disingenuous appeals to your own preferences wherein you would like to make the Yorubas more Islamic than even having the word Christian show up before the word Muslim on a Wikipedia page. But oh, I forgot, you asked to discuss a change you are trying to force, so that makes it less disingenuous. If significant religous history for the Yoruba start for you at Islam, then you and and the Hausas you are trying to tell me could not identify but a subset of a much larger group, as you cannot identify but a much more recent religion, need to do the learning. -Oluwatalisman, extracted from user talk page (talk)

H. Yorubas are neither Chadic, nor Sahelio-Islamic, nor Western-Eurasian in Haplogroup, nor Afro-asiatic, nor even on good terms with or adjacent to the Hausas. -Oluwatalisman, extracted from user talk page (talk)

I. Gurs are geographically Volta-Niger, of the same haplogroup, Niger-Congo, adjacent, are connected through historical events, and show the true transition of cultural wear which you are deceptively trying to credit to the Hausa. They occupy the space between the Coastal Yoruba and the Sahelio-Islamic groups which has made them conducive for trades in culture. Yoruba King: [26] Mossi King (Moro Noba): [27] -Oluwatalisman, extracted from user talk page (talk)

Talisman-white You are not serious with these images, are you???

J. Don't mix politics and informational integrity. This is not Nigeria, this is the internet. -Oluwatalisman, extracted from user talk page (talk)

Talisman-white??????Ppdallo (talk) 13:35, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

Continuation of first set of existing discussions:

Yorubas are not related to Hausa -Oluwatalisman, extracted from view history (talk)

Restored text from Vandalism. Yoruba are related to Hausa by culture and History. -Ppdallo, extracted from view history (talk)

When you are not related genetically, by geographical adjacency, by language classification, by primary clothing habits and dress customs, by majority religion, by obvious behavioral idiosyncrasies reflected through worldview, how in the heck are you related? Don't mix politics and informational integrity. This is not Nigeria, this is the internet. -Oluwatalisman, extracted from view history (talk)

Talisman-white Repetitve. Already answerd earlier.Ppdallo (talk) 13:55, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

This is not a game. -Oluwatalisman, extracted from view history (talk)

Yoruba are intertwined with Gur in Nigeria, Benin, and Togo and you know it -Oluwatalisman, extracted from view history (talk)

Talisman-white Repetitive.Ppdallo (talk) 13:58, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

Removed Hausa -Oluwatalisman, extracted from view history (talk)

Talisman-white Just giving you enough time to read my replies to you. I will revert it.Ppdallo (talk) 13:35, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

Yoruba are not related to Gur groups. Yoruba is related to Hausa. Please lts discuss this at Yoruba Talk page. -Ppdallo, extracted from view history (talk)

Bariba is not a Gur tribe -Ppdallo, extracted from view history (talk)

This will have to continue. Work calls me -Oluwatalisman (talk)

Talisman-white I decided to reply you paragraph by paragraph. I think it is better that wayPpdallo (talk) 13:35, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

Collection of your responses are as follows:
The word "Malo" is a derogatory Yoruba word for Hausa person.Ppdallo (talk) 13:35, 9 September 2021 (UTC)
Talisman-white This map is unverifiable. I have just removed it based on previous discussions I had with Oramfe
Talisman-white Do you believe that these unverifiable images are enough to link Yoruba with with Mossi or any Gur group? I cant believe this is coming from you.Ppdallo (talk)
Talisman-white This is an unverifiable imagePpdallo (talk) 13:35, 9 September 2021 (UTC)
Talisman-white This is an unverifiable imagePpdallo (talk) 13:35, 9 September 2021 (UTC)
Talisman-white Wikipedia cannot be a reference unto itselfPpdallo (talk) 13:35, 9 September 2021 (UTC)
Talisman-white Wikipedia cannot be a reference unto itself. Besides, google any of those so called native names for the talking drum and see if the hourglass drum will show up. However, do the same with the Hausa name of Kalangu and see for yourself. Do Yoruba have a history of leather tanning? How could they make the talking drum?Ppdallo (talk)
Talisman-white Unverifiable imagePpdallo (talk) 13:35, 9 September 2021 (UTC)
Talisman-white That map is unverifiable. I have removed itPpdallo (talk) 13:35, 9 September 2021 (UTC)
Talisman-white This images are meaningless to this discussionPpdallo (talk) 13:35, 9 September 2021 (UTC)
Talisman-white This doe not make sense as I have earlier told you Yoruba is related to Hausa by culture and history of the city of IlorinPpdallo (talk) 13:35, 9 September 2021 (UTC) Talisman-white ??????Ppdallo (talk) 13:35, 9 September 2021 (UTC)
Talisman-white There is no Yoruba in Northern Benin, Togo or Ghana. Even the Mokole language distinct from Yoruba.Ppdallo (talk) 13:35, 9 September 2021 (UTC)
Talisman-white The Yoruba was given to Oyo people by Hausa people(Please see etymology section). So if the name was given only to Oyo people and later applied to some other people in the later part of 1800s how then could it be part of "earlier" Yoruba history? There is no monolithic tribe called Yoruba. Only OyosPpdallo (talk) 13:35, 9 September 2021 (UTC)
Talisman-white Yorubas first major religion is Islam. Get hold of any Ordinary level west African history text book and educate yourself about that. Also Yoruba dress is from Hausa. I chalenge you to cite any credible source for the so called Yoruba dress.Ppdallo (talk) 13:35, 9 September 2021 (UTC)
Talisman-white You are not serious with these images, are you???
Talisman-white ??????Ppdallo (talk) 13:35, 9 September 2021 (UTC)
Talisman-white Repetitve. Already answerd earlier.Ppdallo (talk) 13:55, 9 September 2021 (UTC)
Talisman-white Repetitive.Ppdallo (talk) 13:58, 9 September 2021 (UTC)
Talisman-white Just giving you enough time to read my replies to you. I will revert it.Ppdallo (talk) 13:35, 9 September 2021 (UTC)
Talisman-white I decided to reply you paragraph by paragraph. I think it is better that wayPpdallo (talk) 13:35, 9 September 2021 (UTC)
-Oluwatalisman (talk)

Ppdallo You pretended to invite me to a discussion only to follow up with a barrage of actually saying nothing dispersed around text to make it look like some meaningful contribution. "This is unverifiable, I removed it" and "??????" won't cut it. If this is the grand backing for the authority you are trying to assume on this page, then you are as fake as the pseudocordial persona you are trying to peddle. -Oluwatalisman (talk)

Ppdallo The bottom line is you cannot prove that Yorubas are related to Hausas and cannot refute the Niger-Congo/Afro-Asiatic language group NON-RELATION, the Coastal&Savannah/Sahelian NON-RELATION, the e1b1a/R1b genetic haplogroup NON-RELATION, the religious affiliation of majority NON-RELATION, the lack of geographical adjacency NON-RELATION, or prove that your ethnic group restricted all other ethnic groups from imposing any influence on the Yorubas except your own, that you are not an ethnic and religious expansionist revisionist, or that you can reason beyond declaring things you have not disproven to be unverifiable -Oluwatalisman (talk)

These following two quotes of yours

• ...There is no monolithic tribe called Yoruba.
  
• ...Yorubas first major religion is Islam.
  

suggest that your intentions are as rotten as the edits you are making on the Yoruba People page -- If I don't see you change the title of this page to "Yoruba peoples", then I will have to call you out on inconsistency and hypocrisy and force you to acknowledge that you know you are lying. A page you don't believe is in itself verifiable, due to its title, is the same page you are pretending to be an authority on -- how disingenous? I will permit you start a page called "Yoruba peoples"(I will unlink the redirect) where you can share all your clearly verifiable information to your heart's desire, paint "Yoruba peoples" as Islamic to you hearts pleasure, and partition the meta-cluster of "peoples" to infinitesimally small degrees of fineness till you have satisfied your thirst for ideal verifiability of information anywhere. Don't forget to reduce the population
-Oluwatalisman (talk)

Talisman-white Trying to whip up religious and ethnic sentiments, right? Sadly for you this is the internet and not the streets. The entire Yoruba peoples article has been flagged as follows: "This article includes a list of general references, but it remains largely unverified because it lacks sufficient corresponding inline citations. Please help to improve this article by introducing more precise citations. (June 2021) " and that was as at june 2021 and it was not me who flagged it that way.

My paragraph by paragraph response to you is a validation of the unreliability of the content in "Yoruba people" article. I am trying to help improve it and here you are extracting my response out of context and labeling me names.That means you have nothing more to say and therefore my edit will prevail. Well, no matter what you say I have heeded the call and i will help improve this article. It is my responsibility as as a Wikipedia editor. I will review the entire article and i hope you will be around to challenge my every edit. Cheers and bye. See ya next time.Ppdallo (talk) 09:26, 10 September 2021 (UTC)

user got blocked for edit warring with another user on this page -Oluwatalisman (talk) 01:39, 23 September 2021 (UTC)

Ok Talisman-white , am back! Like i said earlier, calling me names will not serve you any purpose. You called me "dense" and i quote "Are you dense? Is this your point that the name initially applying to only Oyos makes Hausa related to all speakers of the native language that is now considered Yoruba along the coast and in the savannah areas of West Africa?". Now here you are relating Yoruba to all members of Gur peoples just because a southern pheriphral subdivision (Bago, Kusuntu) of the subgroup (Gurunsi Languages) which is a subgroup of the Gur people, had contact with a Yoruboid group (who are dissimilar in languages). Please read the full text of Kleinewillinghöfer (2002) reference material very well, it did not say (Bago, Kusuntu) are related to Yoruboid but rather it said they were in contact just like some other group that neighbor them.

Incidently, Hausa language is listed as a secondary language of the of the Gurunsi peoples along with others and their history intertwined with that of the Hausa and the Djerma. Now here you are denying that Yoruba are rlated to Hausa people but rather to Gur peoples. Are you thick? Lol Ppdallo (talk) 18:26, 12 September 2021 (UTC)

Talisman-white And finally on the issue of Yoruba "relation" with Gur group I would like you to take the following note:

1. (Bago, Kusuntu)are peripheral to Gur group for that matter and were only in contact with Yoruboid group. They are not a Yoruboid Group

2. Yoruba is not tantamount to "Yoruboid group" but only a memebr, with distinct language from other members of the group

3. You cannot use such a contact relationship with a peripheral subdivision of a subgroup to gain access to other Gur groups just like the Hausa is not tantamount to "Chadic" nor can Hausa claim relationship with Jews just because they are Afroasiatic.Ppdallo (talk) 11:43, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

For the benefit of respondents to the above three RfCs

(Summoned by bot) Normally I would very much applaud opening RfCs with very brief, neutral inquiries about the appropriate response to a well-defined editorial question. But in this instance, I really think some extra context is needed here. And the reason for that is utterly confused mess that are the voluminous (but accomplished of virtually nothing) threads on this cluster of disputes above. Please, please, everyone start signing your posts (using ~~~~ at the very end of your comments) and consistently using the standard conventions of WP:THREAD/WP:INDENT expected by talk page guidelines. I actually come to this discussion with some advantages, already being a bit familiar with the history of this culture and having a formal background in linguistics, and even I can't easily track who is making what arguments from those conjoined half-unsigned walls of text above. For respondent editors less familiar with these topics, it may be even more impenetrable. I'm going to go ahead and WP:AGF that the very similar formatting flaws coming out of multiple accounts making similar arguments above is just a reflection of multiple, extremely new editors (rather than socking), but it's important to the effort to advance this discussion that the arguments advocated be somewhat delineated.

So if we could get some very brief summaries of the different positions, made by their proponents, here--rather than prevailing upon every editor responding to dig through that morasse above and the edit history to figure it all out--that would be helpful. This is not really required of you by the formalities of the RfC process, but most RfCs will come with a more easily followed record and I do believe that the extra clarity will make a massive difference in the level of engagement from those notified of the discussion and a clearer and more stable outcome at the end. But if you do take this advice, I'd advise you keep the responses in this thread, so the neutral and relatively well-formatted prompts of the individual RfCs above don't get entangled with advocated arguments. And please, please, if there is any resulting discussion, use indents for responses! And use signatures on every post.

As a final note, to touch upon some procedural matters pertaining to the disputes above: Talisman-white, your comments to Ppdallo ("The reversion of the work of a fellow contributor was your initiation. The discussion should have been and should be initiated by you. Do not revert a 3rd time.") suggest you need to read WP:BRD: if Ppdallo was reverting you or another editor in the case of a relatively recent addition, then the normal process expected by policy here is that the person advocating for the inclusion of that content bears the burden (WP:ONUS) of securing consensus for the change (That said, to reflect the deep importance of avoiding violations of WP:EW, whatever the standing version with regard to the disputed content that is standing now should be preserved until the RfCs resolve.) On the other hand, Ppdallo, there's some problems with your own approach which are, if anything more of concern: "Are you thick?" is an unambiguous violation of our WP:NPA standard and of our pillar policy WP:CIV generally. I'm no admin, but I feel I can nevertheless assure you that if you want to continue to edit with full privileges on this project, you will need to avoid comments like that from herein.

For both sides, I appreciate that these kinds of editorial questions on issues of socio-identity stir strong feelings, but whether a generalist editor or an WP:SPA just here to contribute narrowly, everyone has a responsibility to familiarize themselves with and comport with this project's policies. I'm heartened by the fact that the RfCs are well formatted, and y'all clearly read that policy page. But I would still like to see (and I think other editors will benefit from seeing) a relatively brief, well organized, and fully civil discussion about why you each think the sources do or do not support the inclusion of the discrete pieces of content referenced in the RfC prompts above. Again, it's not required of you, but I think it would make a real difference in the number of people who decide to !vote and the quality and specificity of the feedback you get from other community members. Thank you for your time. SnowRise ^{let's rap} 02:12, 21 September 2021 (UTC)

Snow Rise Thank you for your time. Please note that Talisman-white first used "Are you dense?" on me and i felt that i should for once reply him, considering the fact that he had earlier in the discussion used all sorts of provocative and even derogatory language on me.

Having said that, I would like to suggest the followings as one way to easily resolve this dispute:

1. Considering the fact that his edit was relatively the most recent and the one that precipitated the edit war, the contents should revert to the state before he started the edit war.

2. He then presents his version with all its references here on the talk page for respondents/commentators, who would then compare the old version to his new version and see which version is best supported by its sources and how reliable are those sources. Thank you.

3. If you take the time to crosscheck his sources in relations to all the contents he introduced, you will find that It is in clear violation of WP:NOR in form of made-up content, analysis, synthesis and wrong conclusions that are not supported by the sources.

Ppdallo (talk) 10:08, 21 September 2021 (UTC)

Snow Rise Thank you. This is the context:

Latest version by the other party: [28]

Version by my self(minus the last citation which was a carry-over from a previous edit): [29] The second paragraph was already existing. I modified the third sentence in the second paragraph and did not introduce the last citation.

Version existing beforehand: [30]

First discussion on this topic: [31]

Current discussion: [32]

-Oluwatalisman (talk) 14:52, 22 September 2021 (UTC)

Re:RfC on Etymology 2 section of talk page

Summary on "Etymology 2" discussions
The following was the standing content as at 9:23, 12 September 2021, that Talisman-white heavily edited without seeking consensus and in clear violation of (WP:ONUS) policy:

As an ethnic description, the word "Yoruba" (or more correctly "Yaraba") was originally in reference to the Oyo Empire and is the usual Hausa name for Oyo people as noted by Hugh Clapperton and Richard Lander. It was therefore popularized by Hausa usage and ethnography written in Ajami during the 19th century by Sultan Muhammad Bello. The extension of the term by Europeans to all speakers of dialects related to the language of the Oyo (in modern terminology North-West Yoruba) dates to the second half of the 19th century. In the diaspora, other nomenclatures for the entire ethnolinguistic group such as Akú, Nago, and Lacumi can be found (Nago in Benin Republic, Brazil, and Jamaica; Aku in Sierra Leone Krio language and Lacumi in Cuba.)

As at 9:03, 13 September 2021, I reverted his edit with the edit summary thus:"This section is well sourced and simpler to read and understand. If you insist on making drastic edit, lets discuss those edits at the Yoruba talk page." What ensued between us can easily be gleaned from the ensuing edit summaries that we exchanged[[33]].

Reasons reasons why i reverted his edit, apart from trying to enforce (WP:ONUS) policy.

1. The text he reverted is better sourced and closer in content to the cited references than his heavily editorialized version, in violation of (WP:NPOV).
2. in violation of the No original research (WP:NOR) policy of Wikipedia, he synthesized published materials to imply new conclusions and also introduced duplicate and conflicting content that contradicts the cited references as explained further below.
3. He introduced the concept "Competing terms", and misused others such as " borrowed by Europeans", " missionaries who...helped incorporate it into the language of the Oyo people as their own self-definition" in clear breach of Verifiability.
4.He introduced the word "evolution" to the word "Yoruba" in contradiction to the referenced material.
5. The name Yoruba/Yaraba was originally in reference to Oyo people and not "Oyo Empire".[[34]]
6. Oyo was a Kingdom and not an empire.[[35]]

Please note that I duly signed all my part of the discussions with him and i tried my best to restrain myself in the face of his usage of strong words and even outright aspersions he cast on my person.
Ppdallo (talk) 11:54, 22 September 2021 (UTC)

Re:Re:RfC on Etymology 2 section of talk page
Hello Commenters :).
Please remember that:
Wikipedia editors are allowed to make bold edits regardless of seeking consensus. Please go through other Etymology sections in this talk page to realize that the other party does not have consensus, just time. WP:BRD.
The timestamped reference of 9:03, 13 September 2021 above was not a revert, but more correctly a bold edit by the other user: See [36] and [37].
The previously existing version(from a month prior) is more accurately: [38] and contains a-whole-nother paragraph which was removed.
Wikipedia is crowd-sourced content and editors are allowed to use phrases like "Competing terms", citation can be requested and plagiarism is forbidden -- also exact words are not the main issue here.
Reversion under the claim that any new block of text is unverifiable without any corresponding effort to find out if it really is so is not in the spirit of Wikipedia. There is a citation needed tag on Wikipedia, which I have used here [39]. You may view the citations provided by the second user in response to that request here [40] and consider them in the context of the question raised under this Request for Comment.
-Oluwatalisman (talk) 13:39, 22 September 2021 (UTC)

References

Re:RfC on Degree of Presence of The Yoruba and 'Yoruba derived' groups in Nigeria, Benin & Togo at Sub-national levels/Yorubas of Northern Benin sections of talk page

Brief Summary.

This map [41] is the issue under discussion. I would like to state that the discussion over this map was between Oramfe and myself. It did not involve Talisman_White but he forced himself in on it. the following is my reasons why the map should be replaced:
1. The map clearly violates the No original research (WP:NOR) policy of Wikipedia, having been created by Oramfe himself and illustrates unpublished ideas in form of contiguous coverage of non Yoruba territories.
2. The map is unverifiable and overshoots both Yoruba and Benin Republic territories as can be seen here compared to a well sourced map[[42]]
3. the map has the potential to encourage territorial expansionism and future wars by reasons of item 1 above as well as the fact that user:Oramfe and his friend user: Talisman_white, the pricipal proponents of the map, have made hate speeches against people different from their Yoruba tribe as quoted in the below sections.
4. The references cited do not support the map's contiguous coverage area.
5. There is a better sourced and reliable map[[43]] on Yoruboid article that illustrates the same information of Yoruba presence in Benin and Nigeria as classified by Glottolog from Ethnologue. I believe it would serve a better and reliable alternative.
Finally, I would like to point out that Oramfe and myself had already reached a consensus on this matter and i quote him ("-If at all I do change that map to use Ethnologue's resource, then the topic of any such new change will have to be altogether different since there is no way I can tell population sizes from the map, just immediate territory.
-The midway agreement here will be to hybridize both maps and limit the extent of the Mokole in Northern Benin to just their immediate lands alone as shown on ethnologue while adopting the population figures from peoplegroups.org") before Talisman_White came along.Ppdallo (talk) 12:02, 23 September 2021 (UTC)

Re:Re:RfC on Degree of Presence of The Yoruba and 'Yoruba derived' groups in Nigeria, Benin & Togo at Sub-national levels/Yorubas of Northern Benin sections of talk page

Snow Rise There is no disagreement about this map in the Language section of the article ([44]) as we already concluded that issue here in the talk section. The map had stood for 2 months before he initiated an edit war, and if you look into his history you would realize that he is a repeat offender on Nigerian/West African ethnicity articles here on Wikipedia.. The map was already proven to be factual with supporting references. All issues he seems to have taken with the map have been debunked. The details of the map in question depicts the presence of indigenous Yoruba speaking groups at a level of national territorial divisions as well as the weight/degree of their presence against the population of each province/territory shown. The substitute map that user Ppdallo is proposing as a replacement is something entirely different from the map in question. However I did make it known to him that I could create an even more nuanced map at my own discretion - not as an agreement or compromise with him (there was no issue to begin with) but as part of a continuation of my work contributing to the body of knowledge that is Wikipedia. Oramfe (talk) 06:10, 24 September 2021 (UTC)

OramfeIt is no surprise you are making such statements. Anyways, you are birds of a feather with Oluwatalisman in your insults laden and hate-filled statements about ethnic groups different from your own, such as this one you made in my last discussions with u in the above section ("Hausas used to be slaves, domestic servants and menial job doers in old Oyo which was very cosmopolitan. Internal political rivalry destroyed Oyo-ile and the Fulanis came as the opportunistic vultures they usually present themselves to be. Hausas were inconsequential.lol.... All they did was cower in runaway refuge towns like Suleja.\ while the utterly defeated were used as willing tools elsewhere.") I just want to call your attention to WP:NOR policy, which is clearly violated by your made-up map and therefore can not fly here. It just has to go down.

As an aside, i am not " a repeat offender on Nigerian/West African ethnicity articles here on Wikipedia" as you claim. You only find me hopping in and out of Hausa and Yoruba people related articles and that's because i see a lot of misinformation there.(When i started out, Hausa people article was completely mangled by haters but thank god i have managed to make some amends. I am doing the same thing with the Yoruba people article to save it from ethnic bigots who steal other people culture and then look around with scorn on those people whose culture they have stolen. You wont find me on Ibo/Igbo people page simply because they do not steal other people's culture.
Ppdallo (talk) 10:22, 27 September 2021 (UTC)

Ppdallo Stop trying to be sly on here, we all have access to the history of replies and counter replies- so you can't paint a false narrative of being the "innocent editor" on wikipedia who is being maligned for no reason. You started with the insults right from the article edit history, then brought the snide remarks over to the talk section over here.

My reply to you was not an insult but a statement of fact. You made a 'tongue in cheek' remark about the destruction of oyo-ile and I laid out the facts to you that throughout the internal politics of Oyo (and ilorin) which culminated in the death of Afonja, the Hausas were basically a fifth wheel on the cart who couldn't even save themselves and basically became tools and foot soldiers. Besides, the Hausas indeed used to be slaves and domestic servants in Oyo and Yorubaland. Your own revered Fulani Sultan Bello talked about it extensively.

You hop on Yoruba people articles because you are trying to impose your Hausa narrative on Yorubas, nothing more. And of course you can't be in the igbo people article because there is absolutely no space for your shenanigans over there. You call myself and Oluwatalisman birds of a feather and accuse him of jumping on cases, but we all could see how a completely different wiki user/editor from the Hausa people page came over to engage in an edit war on your behalf after your IP address was blocked. I don't even think you read your own submissions carefully before hitting the publish button. You are a repeat offender because you repeatedly violate wikipedia policies on editing and interaction with other editors, and you are not making any meaningful contributions to the Yoruba people article... the only thing you do here is Article vandalism that sould be checked. Lastly the map I made does not violate the Wikipedia WP:NOR policy because all the information contained there can be found on government websites and numerous reliable published sources. if you have any inquiry about any of the highlighted regions on the map, the onus is on you to put in the necessary effort and research before coming to wikipedia to start an edit war. Oramfe (talk) 17:06, 27 September 2021 (UTC)

Oramfe Seconded -Oluwatalisman (talk) 17:24, 27 September 2021 (UTC)

Oramfe I quoted snippets of you and your buddy's hate statements. can you give a snippet of my " 'tongue in cheek'" remarks or even history of my "replies and counter replies"? You said Hausa slaves in Oyo, right? How did Oyo Kingdom cross into Hausaland to fight and capture Hausa people and at what period in history?Ppdallo (talk) 10:27, 28 September 2021 (UTC)

Ppdallo   [45] -Oluwatalisman (talk) 17:50, 28 September 2021 (UTC)

Oluwatalisman Your funny. I do not want to engage either of you with this "slavery" tales because i knew it would hurt your feelings real bad. But suffice it to say, for Hausa people to give you a name and an identity(Yaraba/Yoruba), cloth and musical instruments, build the city of Ilorin (second most populous city in Yorubaland after Ibadan, which, by the way was founded in the late 1800s) and install an emir (the only emir in all of southern Nigeria) to rule over that city till date, then it will not be surprising if you try to feel good by inventing such pathetic "Hausa slaves in Oyo" tales. But if it makes you feel good, so be it.Ppdallo (talk) 10:13, 29 September 2021 (UTC)

Ppallo   [46] -Oluwatalisman (talk) 10:33, 29 September 2021 (UTC)

OluwatalismanYou can see the cynicism in Captain Clapperton's account by the new name of "Sultan of Yariba" apparently in order to mask his disbelief from the "reports" (he received of an event two years to his landing) about "Hausa slaves" since he was not a witness to what happened. I wish you could answer the question i posed to Oramfe, on how Oyo people managed to cross into Hausaland and at what period in history to capture "Hausa slaves".Ppdallo (talk) 12:25, 29 September 2021 (UTC)

Re:Re:Re:RfC on Degree of Presence of The Yoruba and 'Yoruba derived' groups in Nigeria, Benin & Togo at Sub-national levels/Yorubas of Northern Benin sections of talk page
Hello commenters :).
Please remember that:
Wikipedia policy suggests that if not involved in a dispute, the encouraged approach is to initiate one's own good faith edit.WP:BOLD, WP:BRD
-Oluwatalisman (talk) 00:55, 25 September 2021 (UTC)

Re:RfC onYoruba and Gur group

It is noteworthy that from the discussions i had with Talisman_White in the above section, he had not been able to provide a single verifiable source for his claims that Yoruba are related to Gur groups. Rather he dwelled more on Hausa and Yoruba not being related, which is not the topic here.
Furthermore, I would like to call attention of commenters to the many insultive and sometimes outright hateful rhetorics ("What connects Mossi to Yoruba is literally everything you are falesly trying to claim significantly connects Yoruba to Hausa [47], [48], [49] Yoruba speaking people are part of a continuum of Coastal and Savannah West Africans that share zero Chadic identity and do not wish to") he spewed in the course of the discussion so that people will know the kind of person everyone is dealing with.
As a final note:
1. The sources in the Related Ethnic Group section of infobox do not support his claim of Yoruba related to Gur people such as Dagomba, Gurma etc. It also violates the No original research (WP:NOR) policy of Wikipedia
2.That the normal process expected by policy here is that the person advocating for the inclusion of new content bears the burden (WP:ONUS) of securing consensus for the change. He did not do that. This is a clear violation of Wikipedia policy. Ppdallo (talk) 17:19, 23 September 2021 (UTC)

Re:Re:RfC onYoruba and Gur group
Ethnic group: A community or population made up of people who share a common cultural background or descent. --Oxford Lexico dictionary.[50]
Ethnicity: The quality or fact of belonging to a population group or subgroup made up of people who share a common cultural background or descent. --Oxford Lexico dictionary[51]
Language: A system of communication used by a particular country or community. --Oxford Lexico dictionary[52]
Family: A group of related things--All the languages ultimately derived from a particular early language, regarded as a group. --Oxford Lexico dictionary[53]
Language Family: A group of languages deriving from a single ancestor or parent. --Oxford Lexico dictionary[54]
Niger-Congo languages: Niger-Congo languages, a family of languages of Africa, which in terms of the number of languages spoken, their geographic extent, and the number of speakers is by far the largest language family in Africa... --Encyclopaedia Britannica[55]
Atlantic-Congo languages: Subfamily of Niger-Congo languages. -Glottolog See listing: [56]
Volta-Congo languages: Subfamily of Atlantic-Congo languages. -Glottolog See listing: [57]
While in the broadest sense, the Niger-Congo set of languages depicts an agreed upon base form of relatedness between its constituent ethnic groups, everything else in the discussion section of this talk page in support of the points I made on this topic are in addition to this basic demonstratable fact, and not in replacement of it!
Incidentally, in the broadest sense (considering Niger-Congo), Hausa still fails the criterion.
Also notice, that other similar articles opt for broad inclusion using language family as a limiting factor: Persians, Tamils, Punjabis, Javanese people.
Also incidentally, as at 04:06 March 12, 2021 [58] Hausa was introduced into the section of Related ethnic groups by the user displayed to the right [59]. The searchable "Existing discussions:" text block on this page is documentation of events following from then till now and it would seem that the onus (WP:ONUS) of that new content -- again, [60] -- should fall on the person who seems to have failed to provide it.
In regard to the Gur group entry of the Related ethnic groups section of this article, the entry has existed as such since August 14, 2020[61] to July 14, 2021 [62] when it was removed and once more the discussion above underneath the searchable text block "Existing discussions:" contains documentation of events following from then till now.
In conclusion with regard to Hausa/Gur peoples timestamped diffs, the version preceding the documented discussions is this [63] and the Related ethnic group section was without dispute till the very next edit from thence.
-Oluwatalisman (talk) 00:55, 25 September 2021 (UTC)

Oluwatalisman You don't have to be introducing more confusion into this section. They called for brief summary of our discussions and you are already making the section even more lengthy and difficult to understand. Aside from the onus (WP:ONUS) of you new content, please further familiarize yourself with the No original research (WP:NOR) policy of Wikipedia in relation to those contents as well. They are more of made-up contents, analysis, synthesis and wrong conclusions that are not supported by your sources. Just let commenters do their work.
Ppdallo (talk) 10:48, 27 September 2021 (UTC)

Etymology 2

Talisman-white These are the reasons why i reverted you edit.
1. The text you reverted is simpler to understand, fully sourced and closer in content to all the cited references in that section.
2. You introduced duplicate and conflicting content that contradicts the cited reference.[[64]]
3. The name is borrowed and not "encountered".
4.The name is an Hausa exonym and not a "denonym".
5. The name was in reference to Oyo people and not "Oyo Empire".
6.Lastly, the website is neither yours nor mine. We are all here to make wikipedia a veritable source of factual information and nothing more or less..
NB. I still have a pending dispute with you in the above section (Yoruba and Gur group) and so far you have ignored my last post. Ppdallo (talk) 12:19, 13 September 2021 (UTC)

• Ppdallo These are my responses to the reasons why you reverted my edit.
  

1. Please use "citation needed" where appropriate.

2. I do not see that that was done anywhere.

3. Encounter precedes borrowing. The text said that these were missionaries. There was definitely encounter

4. Semantic expansion makes the term now a denonym. "Hausa name" on the page will be updated to "Hausa exonym" to reflect it was once so.

5.This is part of the accounts of the expeditions of Hugh Clapperton and Richard Lander in the early 19th century. so, the word was applied to the inhabitants of Oyo while Dahomey still paid it taxes and it was used in this very same book at that very same time

6. I said that first. This is my exact point. "Ppdallo The reversion of the work of a fellow contributor was your initiation. The discussion should have been and should be initiated by you. Do not revert a 3rd time. I have included the earlier citation you provided to satisfy the request for it. This is not your website."

7. It was assumed that I had nothing more to say and that your edits would prevail, by your own words. That was your retraction of your invitation to discussion, on my part. Try not to accuse me of not discussing after making statements like that please :)

For no 5, Hugh Clapperton is literally using the word Yourriba to refer to the king of Yourriba before oyo had fallen:

1. It was the encountered Hausa exonym (Yaraba) for Oyo dialect speakers of the larger ethnolinguistic group.

2. The term was borrowed by Hugh Clapperton in the reference of the Oyo kingdom while it collected regional tax from its surroundings. "King of Yourriba" is a reference to the empire

-Oluwatalisman (talk)

Talisman-white Your latest edit makes the content even more vague and out of sync with the cited references. The content you reverted is succinct and well sourced. Remember, we have a very long way to go as we proceed in our journey to sanitize the Yoruba people article.Ppdallo (talk) 08:47, 14 September 2021 (UTC)

• Ppdallo My latest edit was your own correction that the word for the Hausa was an exonym. The content I reverted was not succinct and well sourced. You have been, otherwise, invited to use the "citation needed" tag as necessary. We do not have either a long or a very long way to go in proceeding to sanitize the Yoruba people article, by statement alone. Your first argument was that a section had existed a certain way for years and your current one is that the content needs to change. The maintenance template is as much a user contribution (active or inactive user) as any, and we do not regularly see the user. That template as well is a matter of dispute. You need not worry, the rest of the editors are confident that we will keep the page proper and sound. -Oluwatalisman (talk)
• As a point of starting, the "the word "Yoruba" (or more correctly "Yaraba") was originally in reference to the Oyo Empire and is the usual Hausa name for Oyo people as noted by Hugh Clapperton and Richard Lander.[44] It was popularized by Hausa usage[45]" is not the kind of proper and sound we the other editors are looking for. According to the citation itself, the word Yoruba is not "more correctly" Yaraba. It is Yoruba, and derivation through semantic expansion, and as such it is more correctly Yoruba. It is derivative, not equated. This is the first point. The second point is that the word "Yoruba" is not the "usual Hausa name for the Oyo people," that word is Yaraba, which as an exonym was never subject to the vehicle of semantic expansion as it as always existed outside of the place where Yoruba was created out of Yaraba, through many other variants too, including Yourriba (a reference to the empire of Oyo -- written before 1836). So, Hugh Clapperton and Ricahard Lander did not note that the word "Yoruba" was the "usual" Hausa name for the Oyo people in the early 19th century and also, "Yoruba" was not popularized by Hausa language, as the Hausa kingdoms never use the word "Yoruba" as an exonym. This artice is about the word "Yoruba". Can you please consider creating an article about the word "Yaraba" and explaining its etymology? It would be fitting to separate the two words as the readers might otherwise believe that the Hausa people used the word "Yoruba" while they used the word "Yaraba," as the word "Yoruba" (derived not "less correct") was incorporated as a matter of self-definition -Oluwatalisman (talk)
  
  

Talisman-white Then we take the matter to dispute resolution, if you insist.Ppdallo (talk) 14:40, 14 September 2021 (UTC)

• Ppdallo Please do not push insistence on me. I hope you make your own decisions :) -Oluwatalisman (talk)
  
  

Talisman-white Please note the following in relation to the cited references backing up the content you reverted in the Etymology section:
1. Oyo was a Kingdom and not an empire as noted on page 20 of Hugh Clapperton.
2. Oyo kingdom was called Yarriba (Yaraba) by Arabs and Hausa people as noted on page 38 of Hugh Clapperton as well as a Hausa term for Oyo people as noted on page 20 of Maureen Warner-Lewis (1997)
3. The capital of Oyo Kingdom (Oyo town) was also called Katunga in Hausa language as noted on pge 92 of Hugh Clapperton.
NB:
-That the word "yourriba" is a mere anglicizition of the word "Yarriba(Yaraba)" by Clapperton just as he did with "Houssa" for Hausa and "Eyeo" for Oyo, since he was writing for his English audience who would actually pronounce "Yourriba" as "Your-r-i-bah" just the same as Hausa would pronounce "Yaraba"

-It can be safely assumed that Arabs got to know about yarriba (yaraba) through Muhammadu Bello's writings considering the fact that there is no evidence that Arabs had contacts with Oyo kingdom or any part of forest west Africa for that matter, while on the other hand Muhammadu Bello's writings were all over the literate world and Arabs in particular, who by then were already in contact with Hausa people centuries earlier
In light of the above explanations maybe we could try one more time to reach a consensus?Ppdallo (talk) 10:37, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

Ppdallo A critique of your entry:
Fair-

Statement: The word "Yoruba" (derived from Hugh Clapperton's "Yourriba" from the original Hausa xenonym "Yarriba" or "Yaraba") was originally in reference to Oyo[46]

Fact: This was included within the previous edit you reverted

Disingenuous-

Statements:

The word "Yoruba" derived from Hugh Clapperton's "Yourriba" from his anglicization of the original Hausa xenonym "Yarriba" or "Yaraba"

Correction: Anglicization implies that a word was made English and "Yourriba" was no more English than "Yaraba." It was instead part of an evolution of an original Hausa exonym "Yarba-Yaraba" that gave way to the word "Yoruba" during missionary intervention[65]

"Yoruba" was originally in reference to Oyo kingdom

Correction: "Yoruba" was originally in reference to the larger ethnoliguistic groups centralized by Oyo, "Yoruba" always applied outside Oyo and is therefore not equivalent to Yarba, or Oyo[66]

"Yoruba" is the usual Hausa and Arabs name for Oyo people

Correction: "Yarba-Yaraba" is the usual Hausa and Arabs exonym for Oyo people, not "Yoruba" (It is never used locally)[67]

Hugh Clapperton and Richard Lander noted that "Yoruba" is the usual Hausa and Arabs name for Oyo people

Correction: Hugh Clapperton noted that the Arabs and Houssa used "Yarriba"; he never made a statement regarding "Yoruba" as that word was popularized by later missionaries after his death.[68]

"Yoruba" was popularized by Hausa usage

Correction: "Yoruba" was popularized between Europeans missionaries and the efforts of the Oyo related people to define their selves[69]

"Yoruba" was popularized by ethnography written in Ajami during the 19th century by Sultan Muhammad Bello.

Correction: "Yoruba" was popularized between Europeans missionaries and the efforts of the Oyo related people to define their selves[70]

Also, [71] [72][73]: This Yoruba article Etymology section is not an autobiography on Muhammad Bello; the citations need to be applicable to the statements made in the sentence preceding.

For you to note-
Statement
Etymology is "the study of the history of words. By extension, the etymology of a word means its origin and development throughout history."

Extrapolation:

It does not mean the strict equivalence of a word with its associated origin for no just reason. The word "Yoruba" is the result of development sequence throughout history. "Yarba-Yaraba"-->"Yaribba"-->"Yourriba"-->"Yoruba". Respectively, (In reference to Hausa and Arabs understanding of Oyo)-->(In reference to Richard Lander's classification of Oyo)-->(In reference to Hugh Clapperton's addressing of the Oyo empire AND kingdom)-->(In reference to the term self and missionary applied during missionary work to a far much larger ethnolinguistic group/cluster). Words contain meanings, and the meanings captured between "Yarba" and "Yoruba" differ by the range of we're talking millions of new people. So no, the words are not spelled the same, nor do they even mean or refer to the same thing and in conclusion are NOT the same word. As such, "Mohammed Bello" did not popularize the name "Yoruba," neither did he necessarily popularize "Yaraba" but simply wrote about it. We do not see evidence of his notes leading to popularization as Yaraba is still largely unused even among the Hausa and Arabs today as it declined in it's exonym state, besides meaning something completely different -- and we are not even concerned with that word here. When confronted with the version updated to in your last series of reverts, I don't see how someone can correctly learn about the progression of words and about the progression of the ranges of application of the words associated with the denonym found in the title of this article -- "Yoruba", in reference to "Yoruba people". Instead, what they are getting is that the resultant word is in complete equivalence with its original and credited to the Hausa and Mohammed Bello, which is false. This is in addition to you adding an Ajami Arabic translation to the page title for a non-Arabic speaking people and, in the past, insisting that Islam be the first religion displayed in the infosection ethnic group section. What you should have instead done is point out that "Yoruba" is a New Word, framed by New parties, with New Range of Application. Thanks for listening and understanding here :)

Addition

I have already told you that Wikipedia is not the place to try to Arabize the Yoruba people or to add them to some Hausa/Arab Expansion pack. It is an encyclopedia for crying out loud, and all your post and revert are about this. What is with the new entry of posting an Ajami translation of the title to the page? Yorubas speak French even more! Yoruba will do, English will do, even French. That translation neither servers an understanding of the topic of the page nor the language of this Wikipedia version and you reverted my change to do it; this is English Wikipedia for crying out loud. Virtually nobody here reads or writes in Ajami. Please consider adding it to the Arabic translation of the Yoruba people. We cannot add every language to the text, other Wikipedias exist for that and stop trying to colonize Yorubas through Wiki. It looks weird
Oluwatalsiman (talk) 12:37, 16 September 2021 (UTC)

Oluwatalsiman Like i told you before labeling me names will not help your cause. My only account on Wikipedia is Ppdallo and am here to help Wikipedia become a factual source of information. I do not know how you could jump to such conclusions and still be an impartial editor; Your true color is all over the place.

Your edit is incoherent, self contradictory and off source by a wide margin. I do not need to repeat myself here. Like i told you before, we got a long way to go, so please escalate(I will wait so we don't end up making duplicate entries) and get done with it so we can move on to even more preposterous sections of the Yoruba article.
NB;
Your statement (" Anglicization implies that a word was made English and "Yourriba" was no more English than "Yaraba." It was instead part of an evolution of an original Hausa exonym "Yarba-Yaraba" that gave way to the word "Yoruba" during missionary intervention") deserves my response. What i meant here was that the spelling was anglicized and not the meaning. Further more I made a mistake in my previous discussion as follows;
-(That the word "yourriba" is a mere anglicizition of the word "Yarriba(Yaraba)" by Clapperton just as he did with "Houssa" for Hausa and "Eyeo" for Oyo, since he was writing for his English audience who would actually pronounce "Yourriba" as "Your-r-i-bah" just the same as Hausa would pronounce "Yaraba") but meant to say as below, with correction in bold.
-That the word "yourriba" is a mere anglicizition of the word "Yarriba(Yaraba)" by Clapperton just as he did with "Houssa" for Hausa and "Eyeo" for Oyo, since he was writing for his English audience who would actually pronounce "Yourriba" as "Your-r-i-bah" just the same as Yoruba people would pronounce "Yaraba" (The Yoruba people i know have a tendency to pronounce Hausa word that contain the letter "a" in more than one places as an "o" and examples are:1. "Magaji" = "Mogoji" 2. "Masallaci" = "Mosholoshi" etc.)
So the Yoruba people Richard lander/Clapperton were talking to pronounced yarriba/Yaraba to him as "Yoruba" and thus his anglisization of the spelling to "Yourriba" for his English audience. The word did not evolve at all; It got corrupted by local Yorubas.Ppdallo (talk) 14:09, 16 September 2021 (UTC)

Ppdallo, I will add this. Going by "Linguistic anglicisation (or anglificiation, anglifying, or Englishing) is the practice of modifying foreign words, names, and phrases to make them easier to spell, pronounce, or understand in English." Hugh Clapperton's Yourriba is an anglicisation. This certainly seems to be the case here, so anglicisation seems right, you may apply that to "Yourriba." And again, your Yoruba friends are not citations. I myself am Yoruba and would not be caught dead saying either "Moe-gaji" or "Moe-show-low-shi" as the vowel sound in Yoruba is "o" as in "Moe" or "Low." That is not the same example you gave. The example you gave would make the word "Yoh-ruba" or "Yaw-ruba" and do not for a second insinuate that Yorubas do not know the difference between "oe" in Joe and "oh" in Joy. And you may add me to the Yoruba people you know, in which case, the Yoruba people you know would not be in support of your argument.
Here is the bottom line.

• The word "Yoruba" is not a loanword as you are claiming because it has been subject to translation.[74][75]
• The word "Yoruba" is a congnate with "Youribba" and "Yarba" as they share etymological origins but they have "evolved different meanings" [76]

• The addition I made clearly shows common etymological origin of "Yoruba" as the cognate that it is.[77]
• The alternative is your version which claims that it is a loanword given out of the generosity of the Hausa's hearts(even though we don't have any written history, just mutual visitors). Here is your previous statement made in all caps on this same page:" THEREFORE WITHOUT THAT HAUSA WORD THERE WOULD NEVER BE A YORUBA TRIBE AS WE KNOW IT TODAY. THEREFORE THANK HAUSA PEOPLE FOR THAT." [78]
  -Oluwatalisman (talk)
  
  

Talisman-white even the reference you cited here says the word is a loan word. Please check it up here, in the last paragraph of page 19.Ppdallo (talk) 13:52, 21 September 2021 (UTC)[79]

Ppdallo Yes, I cited it there because I want you to be absolutely clear about what you are reading. It is ONLY mentioned by the author that variants of Yarriba is a loanword in reference to Oyo ONLY. This article is not about Oyo. It is about a word with a new meaning. Today Oyo goes by "Oyo" ONLY and so that loanword failed to stick to Oyo. The author then states, "The application by Europeans... to Oyo-related dialects and their speakers [which denotes a different meaning] is therefore an instance of semantic extension." Do you know what semantic extension means? Click on the link to it and pay close attention to the words progression, development, evolution, cognates, etymology, onomasiology, semasiology, and semantics, and the portion of the text that states "...meaning is radically different from the original usage." This makes the title of this article a cognate and not a word "given by the Hausas out of the generosity of their hearts." For example, if the words dish, disk and desk are English and the word tisch, which is German for ("table"), are both cognates of the the Latin word discus ("disk"), then the word "Yoruba" is just Yoruba and the English and Germans don't have to declare that they would never have tables to use if the Romans didn't have a word for round objects. The formula is new meaning + same root = differnt words. Period. -Oluwatalisman (talk) 11:36, 22 September 2021 (UTC)

Yoruba: Definition of Yoruba is A Niger-Congo language of southwestern Nigeria and parts of Benin and Togo also a member of any of the Yoruba-speaking people of this region. First Known Use of Yoruba is 1841, in the meaning defined above. History and Etymology for Yoruba Yoruba (Yoruba language) Yorùbá. --Merriam Webster dictionary.[80] -Oluwatalisman (talk) 12:54, 6 October 2021 (UTC)

References

Edit-warring

Per request at WP:RFPP, I have protected the page for two weeks. Editors, please reach consensus here on talk. If you cannot, it's time for some kind of additional dispute resolution. I see there have been some WP:RfCs. Forgive me for not having the time right now to read through all of them. If you need another one, go ahead and do so. - CorbieVreccan ^☊ ☼ 22:24, 15 October 2021 (UTC)

Recent Protection Template and Reversion on Yoruba people Article

Thanks for your intervention of the Yoruba people article and the subsequent protection. Please note that the newest section reversion under Name [81] made by you is not a part of the ongoing article conflict and I actually created and removed it from the section under conflict to avoid conflation and entanglement of issues, which seems to be exactly what has happened with your deletion of it. Thanks. Oramfe (talk) 22:32, 15 October 2021 (UTC)

OK, as I'm hearing different feedback from different editors on the article, please take this discussion to article talk so everyone can weigh in on article content and reach consensus. Thanks. - CorbieVreccan ^☊ ☼ 22:37, 15 October 2021 (UTC)

cc; User:Ppdallo, User:Talisman-white - Discuss Oramfe (talk) 22:47, 15 October 2021 (UTC)

Yeah CorbieVreccan, I am not in a dispute about the Name section. Thanks -Oluwatalisman (talk) 23:05, 15 October 2021 (UTC)

It can be a bit hard to parse when there's a lot of activity and one of us drops in from a protection request to pause things so editors can sort it all. If there's consensus about which version this should be on, let me or another admin know and we can help with that while the other issues are being sorted. Or are you both asking that I just self-revert the edit that put it back before that last edit? Best, - CorbieVreccan ^☊ ☼ 23:10, 15 October 2021 (UTC)

Yes, We agree on exactly that. The entire section the third party has raised issues with (and the back and forth that has llasted several days btw) is entirely under Etymology, as User:Talisman-white has confirmed

Once again, thank you. Oramfe (talk) 23:17, 15 October 2021 (UTC)

I've just restored it to the version it was at when I applied the protection. Seems simplest. - CorbieVreccan ^☊ ☼ 23:18, 15 October 2021 (UTC)

CorbieVreccan Yes, I have confirmed exactly that. Thank you for your help! -Oluwatalisman (talk) 23:32, 15 October 2021 (UTC)

ETYMOLOGY SECTION

The name "Yoruba" is derived from the Hausa word "Ya raba" or "Yaraba" and officially pronounced to Clapperton by Sultan Muhammad Bello and also in his ethnography written in the 1800's and not NO Ahmed Baba of Songhai. What does Ahmed Baba know about the Yoruba people and a Hausa word "Ya raba"??????! ANYBODY WANNA DISCUSS THIS?Ppdallo (talk) 14:48, 15 November 2018 (UTC)

Also, please stop trying to change history. The Word Yoruba is originally Hausa and has no linguistic relationship with the Yoruba language. It is Hausa and has meaning in Hausa language whereas the Yoruba have no meaning for that word. The word Larabawa is originally Arabic and has meaning in Arabic whereas it doesn't have in Hausa language except for what it means in Arabic. The word Kanawa is Hausa and has meaning in the Hausa language. THEREFORE WITHOUT THAT HAUSA WORD THERE WOULD NEVER BE A YORUBA TRIBE AS WE KNOW IT TODAY. THEREFORE THANK HAUSA PEOPLE FOR THAT. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ppdallo (talk • contribs) 15:31, 19 November 2019 (UTC)

Can you clarify what your grievance is? Before your first edit to the article, it already said the word came from Hausa. It said that before your edits and it says that after your edits. Your last two sentences make no sense. A people exists regardless of what other peoples call it. Largoplazo (talk) 17:39, 19 November 2019 (UTC)

I have no grievance what so ever. Before my first edit to this section there was an unverifiable allusion to Ahmad Baba of Songhai as the coiner of the word Yoruba thereby completely erasing the vital contributions of both Muhammadu Bello and Clapperton. I opened a discussion on this talk page as you can see for yourself above exactly one year now with no one coming forward to discuss with me. I then proceeded with my verifiable edit and almost immediately afterwards got blocked temporarily for that fully referenced edit/contributions by Muhammadu Bello and Coppertone. Now precicely one year later someone (Oramfe) comes up and wants to remove Muhammadu Bello's contribution (which is fully backed up with verifiable reference)and even cast doubt (as in it was said)on Hausa origin of the name. I think Oramfe is the the Vandal here and not me.

On your second comment, yes a people exist regardless of its name but not as a group with a wider ethnic identity as the Yorubas do today.Ppdallo (talk) 18:08, 20 November 2019 (UTC)

@Ppdallo: Another statement from you that I can't make head nor tail of. I have no idea what distinction you have in mind between a group having a "wider ethnic identity" and a group not having one. Largoplazo (talk) 11:31, 17 October 2021 (UTC)

RfC on Etymology 2 section of talk page

How close to cited references is the content of Etymology section in Yoruba people article?Ppdallo (talk) 11:40, 20 September 2021 (UTC)
Please exclude this citation [82] from the RFC . It is a typo and was erroneously carried over from a previous edit. It may be removed. -Oluwatalisman (talk) 16:57, 20 September 2021 (UTC)
Etymology section: [83]

• Reading the summary material below, the opener of this RfC has raised too many separate claims about different aspects of this text for it to be easily addressable in an RfC. I think the material should thus be reverted to the status quo ante the dispute, and changes reintroduced, with consensus discussion, one at a time. Reading further, I think this applies to the other two RfCs immediately below, as well.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  23:52, 15 October 2021 (UTC); rev'd 23:57, 15 October 2021 (UTC)

RfC on Degree of Presence of The Yoruba and 'Yoruba derived' groups in Nigeria, Benin & Togo at Sub-national levels section of talk page

Is the map on Language section in Yoruba people article supported by cited references?Ppdallo (talk) 13:50, 20 September 2021 (UTC)
Map: [84]

RfC on the Yoruba and Gur group section

Do the cited references in the Gur peoples subsection of Related ethnic groups section of Yoruba people info box support the content?Ppdallo (talk) 15:42, 20 September 2021 (UTC) Section: See Infobox ethnic group on [85] -Oluwatalisman (talk) 16:57, 20 September 2021 (UTC)