User talk:Jimbo Wales/Archive 68

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"you can use the information in Wikipedia any way you want."

Hello Jimbo Wales,

could you please take these words out of the appeal? As well in the other languages, because this is simply wrong. You cannot use it in any way you want but in order with the granted licenses. Regards Catfisheye 15:37, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

You can use the information in any way you want. Information is not the same as text.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 16:34, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

I agree with the OP it is very misleading the same, however. Text is information and, technically, information in WP is the bytes of article content(s). --Cyclopia ^talk 16:40, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

Anyone can use the information in articles however they please. Text and images/graphics must be attributed. I understand how some readers may be misled by this, it's indeed a clever marketing pitch, but it's true, the information is not encumbered by licence. Gwen Gale (talk) 16:42, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

(edit conflict)It seems you and Jimbo have a different meaning for "information" than that of mine and the OP. Let me see if I understand: You take as "information" as, informally, being the gist of an article, so to say, the concepts contained there. However technically and more correctly, information is just a sequence of symbols -like the bytes in a database, the characters in a text, or the pixels in an image. Without specifying, to say that I can use the information in WP in any way I want is wrong -I cannot use the textual information of an article in any way I want. --Cyclopia ^talk 16:48, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

The underyling information in published text is not copyrightable (or copyleftable) at any step. That's why one can build an encyclopedia like this one from copyrighted sources. Citing the source of the information (attribution) may be demanded by some readers, publishers, academic orgs and so on, but that's another topic. Gwen Gale (talk) 16:54, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

Put it this way, you can use the information in Encyclopedia Britannica however you want, too, but you can't simply copy (or closely paraphrase) the text which carries it. In this way, saying you can use the information in Wikipedia any way you want is indeed misleading, because it's true for any copyrighted encyclopedia, too. Gwen Gale (talk) 17:02, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

English is obviously not my mother language. In German the appeal says "all content" and "without restrictions" (Sie können alle Inhalte hier uneingeschränkt nutzen, wie Sie es möchten.) Nevertheless Wikipedia is not only about text and I guess even a video contains information. --Catfisheye (talk) 17:07, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

Translations are fuzzy, that translation from the German may not be strictly what the German means. Meanwhile, information in any published video can also be freely used, but copies of a copylefted video must be attributed and copies of a copyrighted video will likely need permission from the copyright holder. Gwen Gale (talk) 17:11, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

German is my mother language and my translation my have blurry nuances but is quite near. Ask anybody else. As information has different meanings defined by context, I have to say that here a clearing context is missing. And maybe it is not wrong but actually misleading to say you can use the information "any way you want". --Catfisheye (talk) 17:17, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

It may be misleading to say so, but, writing English here and not speaking for what the German appeal says, you can use the information found on en.WP any way you want (as you can with any copyrighted encyclopedia). If you copy text from en.WP word by word, you must follow the terms of use. Gwen Gale (talk) 17:21, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

Something which should IMHO inserted in the appeal. Of course "following the terms of use (to keep it free)" does not sound as sexy as "any way you want". However it is his name under and his portrait above the translations, so I thought to clear this could be in his interest. --Catfisheye (talk) 17:30, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

That wouldn't have anything to do with the use of information, since the information always stays free in every way. The snippets of language you've given below don't say the same things as the English line in the appeal. Gwen Gale (talk) 18:12, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

As Cyclopia said, there is also a technical definition of information or that that information is organized data. And of course it is possible to plagiarize wp articles but that is not allowed. I do not think that the line in English says the same thing as in these quoted passages but is actually unnecessary misleading and as a donator I might feel betrayed. I do not think that this can be in the interest of this project. --Catfisheye (talk) 18:22, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

In Italian: Il contenuto di Wikipedia può essere utilizzato liberamente da chiunque per qualunque scopo. The content of Wikipedia can be used freely by everyone in every way. Maybe liberamente has also the meaning "freely but in order with the terms of use", but it seems quite unlikely to me. --Catfisheye (talk) 17:39, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

Same thing in Spanish: Cualquiera puede usar libremente el contenido de Wikipedia para cualquier propósito. and French: Le contenu de Wikipédia est libre d'être utilisé par tout le monde, pour tout usage. and Portuguese: Todo o conteúdo da Wikipédia é livre para uso por qualquer pessoa e para qualquer finalidade. Dutch: De inhoud van Wikipedia is vrijelijk te gebruiken door iedereen en voor ieder doeleinde. I guess there is no letter in Latin, so here my knowledge of languages does stop. --Catfisheye (talk) 17:46, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

The core problem seems to be, that many translations replaced "information" with "content". --Pjacobi (talk) 18:15, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

Yes because information can be understood in this way. And hey, these translations were made at least I hope so by people who know this project. So how misleading will it be for those who are unfamiliar with wikimedia projects. (yes, this appeal is also used on commons.)--Catfisheye (talk) 18:25, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

In English, information does not mean content, the English line is true, though somewhat misleading. Looks like some of the translations may be sloppy, though. Gwen Gale (talk) 18:30, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

Ok, then information cannot be interpreted as the technical content in bits and bytes or organized data, ok. (Then there are some articles here in en:wp needing a workaround regarding this aspect.) But why should a "somewhat misleading" line be kept? --Catfisheye (talk) 18:35, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

Gwen, have you read the lede of the information article? Sorry, but Wikipedia textual/visual content is information contained in Wikipedia. Anyway you could even be right but the main point is not its formal correctness (and, believe me, it isn't formally correct) but that it is misleading and we probably don't want people to think that they can do whatever they like with WP content. --Cyclopia ^talk 18:37, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

First, you can't cite Wikipedia articles for anything. Second, the word information can have sundry meanings in English, depending on context. Third, in English, under US copyright law, information does not mean text or images or computer programs and so on. The pith is, published information is not copyrightable, the text which carries that information is copyrightable, the underlying information in copyrighted text can be used freely and without attribution. The only worry I have about the line in English is that it also holds quite true for any copyrighted, purchased encyclopedia. Gwen Gale (talk) 18:46, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

Hey Gwen Gale, If you feel attacked by me then sorry. I did not want to. I apologize.
I did not quote any article. But I looked them up. I am going to be a historian of technology and did and do read a lot of scientific books and articles, even in English, about media/information/knowledge etc. and I do know that there is no universal definition for information. But I do accept your argument that here the jurisdictional definition is that what counts. Problem: That is not perceptible from the appeal. :( --Catfisheye (talk) 19:06, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

Ok I can cite WP articles for anything; we're not discussing notability or WP:RS, sheesh? then let's see what Merriam-Webster says: [1]: and yes, it shows you're entirely right: the word information can have lots of meanings, depending on context. Problem is, the context here doesn't help me at all. I am a scientist and when I think of "information", I think of meaning 2B before anything else. You talk about copyright law. Ok, but why can you cherry-pick that definition and I can't cherry-pick mine? And why should the reader think about the copyright law definition? The point is that everyone can understand a different thing from that sentence -and lead to problems for users that are misled in thinking they can do all kinds of stuff they can't, and for us therefore. It would be enough to substitute "information" with "notions", for example, to solve the issue. --Cyclopia ^talk 21:05, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

Information has specialized and verifiable meaning as to US copyright law. It is not the same thing as text. If Jimmy or someone else wants to carry forth with verification of this, ok, that's up to them, but I'm saying it can and will be done if need be and the marketing line is spot on true, my only hitch with the line is that in saying, you can use the information in Wikipedia any way you want, it's got the same sway as it would with the copyrighted Algebra textbook you likely lugged about in high school. Gwen Gale (talk) 21:14, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

And because this is your talkpage and your words and the translation of your words: Jimbo Wales what are you going to do? --Catfisheye (talk) 18:40, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

Surely it is bothering to write a text for a fundraising where you should mention all those points from the wiki life like do not make personal attacks, be polite, do not spam, formate properly, do not use huge templates ... On the other side: we still have problems with the wikipedia texts that are published widely and wild in the internet. We even habe problems with our editors who do not act according to our own licence guidelines. Thus I would have expected a very short sentence in the text like "you can use the information in Wikipedia any way you want when you follow our licence guidlines" (or "you can mostly..."). Some 30 letters. Information is not only the "knowledge", but really: if I cite the information, so it is text/content. -jkb- (talk) 18:53, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

All I'm saying is, in English, the statement is utterly true and stands on its own. Using information found in Wikipedia is not subject to its terms of use. Gwen Gale (talk) 19:00, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

It is neither true nor false: it is ambiguous because it depends on which definition of information you cherry pick. And that is the problem. --Cyclopia ^talk 21:08, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

In English, under US copyright law, it's not ambiguous at all. Gwen Gale (talk) 21:16, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

If I may butt in, I may be able to help clarify something about the definitions here. As written in English, the sentence implies knowledge, which is a synonym for information. If we replaced the word information with knowledge it would not change the meaning. However, what Cyclopia is describing seems to be more related to syntax, (as it applies to linguistics), and syntax would not be a suitable synonym in that sentence. It's not cherry-picking. In a language as complex as English, context is everything. Hope that helps. Zaereth (talk) 21:38, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

plus in the quoted languages that phrase is not ambiguous but wrong, because they use "content". I do understand that here is worried more about the appeal in English because it is the original one. But I don't think, that it would be useful if I leave the same message in those six languages, even because I assume that Jimbo Wales does not know them all and even my knowledge in some cases would not be sufficient. I'd really like to hear clear words from this user, knowing that after 24 h of no reply this goes the way down to the archives, where it will never been seen again. Regards--Catfisheye (talk) 22:34, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

Yes, I understand your concern. I don't speak any of these other languages, and so cannot offer assistance in translating. I can only offer assistance with English problems. Translation is a difficult task, because the translator not only needs to be able to fully understand the English context, but must also understand the other language enough to know how to convey the intended meaning. Simple word-for-word (Google type) translations usually do not work well. Sorry I can't help with that. Zaereth (talk) 23:00, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

Thank you for your help. :) It is very welcome. Normally I do not write or talk in English, just read, but I was quite sure that information in English is not limited to the sense of the American copyright laws.

I presume that Jimbo Wales or someone he trusts has approved these translations. And as I mentioned above I guess it is in his interest, that statements made in his name should be correct. And at least I do perceive it as a problem if anyone does with Wikipedia "contenuto/contenu/etc." what he wants not respecting the licenses. --Catfisheye (talk) 23:22, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

Hello Jimbo Wales. Thank you for ignoring my questions, --Catfisheye (talk) 13:30, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

I answered your question. I don't know what else you want from me. Can you be more specific? I don't intend to change the letter, and I think it is fine the way it is. Of course it is possible to nitpick over the precise meaning, but I am unaware of any problem with it being the way it is, so I don't see any reason to do anything about it. It is a short statement and for every sentence in it, I could make it more accurate and precise by adding a lot more words, but that would be completely and utterly pointless.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 13:38, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

Well, maybe you haven't read the discussion, so I sum up: I mentioned 6 translations where instead of information content is used. Sorry, that I try to clear problems that you are "unaware of". You can call it nitpicking but this does not solve anything. "accurate and precise" that is the way I want wikipedia to be written and used, therefore I adopted users in the German version, that is my motivation for doing the arbcom job over there. So I do think if you want somebodys money for this project, you have to be also "accurate and precise". You think this point of view is pointless? So thank you again. --Catfisheye (talk) 13:47, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

Dude... your beef is with the guy who translated the German version; go to meta, tell'em to change it. Problem solved. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 13:51, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

Please stop calling me dude. I am none.As I mentioned already above, it is not only the problem of the German translation and by the way I already was at meta. Nevertheless the appeal says it is by Jimmy Wales. So why he should not occupy for being translated correctly? --Catfisheye (talk) 14:15, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

I believe this is a sound criticism. The English version is ambiguous (to most readers), and the translations are, apparently, misleading. If they haven't been already, they should be pulled, or the word "information" should be replaced with "knowledge," per Zaereth above. Anthony (talk) 14:58, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

I fully agree that "knowledge" is a much better synonym. The problem is not only the translations -they're far worse because they're wrong (my mother language is Italian, and the Italian translation unambiguously wrong)- but the ambiguity of the original version. Gwen Gale can continue to refer to US copyright law, but that's irrelevant, because I don't live in the US, I don't know the nuts and bolts of US copyright law, and if I were a naive European reader reading that I can do whatever I want with WP information, I'd automatically assume that it is a public domain encyclopedia, not a CC-BY-SA-3.0/GFDL encyclopedia. To Jimbo: We're trying honestly to help. Putting the head under the sand and refusing feedback, no matter how informal it is, is not the way to go IMHO. --Cyclopia ^talk 15:20, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

I'm not aware of any jurisdiction where you can copyright information. Even with the Database Directive, it isn't accurate to say information is copyrighted. It seems to me the problem here is a different understanding of the word 'information', particularly of those who have a variety of European languages as their native languages, I guess partly as a result of the lack of a complete synonym in those languages and the different way of thinking different languages and different cultural upbringings can result in. It's nothing to do with differences in the implementation of copyrights. Nil Einne (talk) 22:34, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

Sorry, but in this article information is not mentioned. I checked for instance the Irish laws and have not found a statement to the copyright of information either. Data is different from information.
And even native speakers of English have expressed their doubt here, that information is not ambiguous.
And yes in those languages do exist words that are much nearer to information then to content.
What I do not understand is why I should go to the different wikipedias to have this error changed, if there is a foundation which is connected with its chapters and which receives half of all donations to these chapters? --Catfisheye (talk) 00:09, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

See this FAQ entry at Brandeis. Moreover, my understanding is, information can't be copyrighted in any jurisdiction covered by the Berne Convention for the Protection of Literary and Artistic Works and likely, most others. A database is a carrier of information, they're not the same things. You can use the information in Wikipedia any way you want. Quite true. You can also use the information in Encyclopdia Britannica any way you want, such as by putting something you find there into your own words, copyrighting that expression of the information yourself and selling it. So this is a somewhat catchy but empty marketing line, as most of them are, they're meant to draw heed and sway thinking in emotional ways. Swapping in knowledge for information would keep the same meaning, likely sound snappier and be a bit more understandable to some, maybe, but would still be true of any published work, copyrighted or not. As for the line as put forth in other languages, even the fittest translations mostly cannot be spot on in meaning and more often than not, they're done sloppily anyway. Catchy, empty marketing lines tend not to lend themselves to translation at all, which is why knowledgeable marketers often hire native-born speakers to write up marketing stuff from scratch for each market (companies like Nestlé and Coca-Cola have done this for decades). Even then, what they come up with will still be catchy but empty marketing stuff. But the thinking is, one doesn't care if it's empty, one cares if it sells. Gwen Gale (talk) 04:39, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

AFAIK the foundation has largely relied on community translations as they always do. I don't know what, if any, approval process there is but I doubt it's very formal if there is one. I definitely think JW's involvement has been minimal, he has agreed to allow his image to be used as part of the appeals process and trusts the people in charge to do a decent job. I'm not sure whether each individual wiki has their own version although I do know in the past there has been controversy when other wikis have felt they've been ignored by the foundation, for example when the advertising has referred to wikipedia on the commons, wikinews, etc. Regardless if anyone did direct you to each individual wikipedia, this was IMHO poor advice even if well meaning. Your best bet is as Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 has recommend, go meta specifically the part where the donation banners were designed, where both people in the foundation and those who were involved in the translations will listen to your concerns. I would start from Meta:Fundraising 2010/Translation and find the best place to post your concerns. One thing is for sure, the user page for Jimbo Wales on en.wikipedia is the wrong place. BTW, if you really want to get the slogan changed in English, you're going to need to come up with a suitable replacement. "you can use the knowledge in Wikipedia any way you want" sound awkward or even wrong to by my ears. Nil Einne (talk) 09:10, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

It's misleading and needs to be changed; not because of the law, but because this is Wikipedia. Replacing "information" and "content" with "knowledge" is better: clearer, true. Anthony (talk) 12:59, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

I too think knowledge would be a more helpful fit, for a short and snappy sentence in that fund-raising context. Gwen Gale (talk) 13:30, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

I prefer knowledge as well, because there is no more accurate or precise. Either you are accurate or precise or you are not. @ Neil Einne I already was at meta but did not receive help. After I've contacted one of the German chapter they at least changed the words there. Obviously it has to be done like this. oO --Catfisheye (talk) 19:39, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

Circumstances warranting a new case file

Hi Jimbo:

Presently I am in the dock facing a site ban. This action can be found here. The spark igniting this case stemmed from a minor dispute, suddenly escalated by an administrator to become a Request for amendment of a prior case. IMO, no attention has been paid to due diligence in examining this issue.

I'd like some advice as to whether it is legitimate to piggyback what is not an amendment at all, but a brand-new sanction (a site ban), upon an old case. That old case presently calls for a topic ban on physics related matters. An earlier sanction from this case that put me on probation to observe WP etiquette has expired.

I think this very serious sanction that is not based upon the previous case should be required to be filed as a full case, and not piggybacked upon this old unrelated matter. That would allow some discovery of facts in this matter to take place, which has not been done so far.

What is your opinion? What can I do to obtain a full hearing on this matter? Brews ohare (talk) 19:32, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

What was the original dispute in the current case, i.e. what started this latest brouhaha? Was it your edits to Euclidean geometry and Pythagorean theorem?--Jimbo Wales (talk) 08:46, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

Because Brews is now blocked for a year because of this issue, he'll continue this discussion via email. Count Iblis (talk) 16:39, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

Poking into this just briefly, to me it looks like all sides are being dysfunctional here. It was doubtless unwise for Brews ohare to butt into Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Physics, where he had formerly argued the thing with the speed of light definition that got him banned.^[2] Even so, the stuff he was saying there looks to be in good faith,^[3] and Headbomb later said he gave him a "free pass" on it.^[4] Then EdJohnston said that "anything in the natural sciences. In my mind, that includes mathematics.", a very debatable point. He also said "We have agreed to your stipulation that you may be blocked up to one week each time we decide that the new ban is violated."^[5]

Now the way I see it, good arbitrators and administrators should mean what they say and say what they mean. If they want to ban someone from editing about "natural sciences", they should either explain in detail what that means to them ahead of time, or be willing to be contradicted when someone cites a contrary source, as Brews did. If they say someone can be blocked for a week, it shouldn't mean he'll be blocked for a year. If you're giving someone a free pass, you should forget about it and not hold it against him later - if you intend to hold it against him, that's not a free pass but a warning and should be clearly given as such at the time. I know that Brews o'hare can be very vocal in his self-defense, but even if that annoys someone that is not an argument. This shouldn't be about the editor but about maintaining the credibility of the arbitration process.

I would also question whether it is useful to find an edit engaged in a land war about one single solitary fact, and turn that into a broad, vague topic ban that only gets broader each time it comes into question. ArbCom had the opportunity to take a good science editor and redirect his energies into something productive, but instead they more or less forced him to become a permanent thorn in their own side. If this is how topic bans are going to be enforced, maybe you should just give up on them and block editors for some months instead. Of course, that's now what they've done, but they could have gotten here by a much shorter path, and tried a shorter ban.

Another worse than useless idea is Count Iblis saying "I have therefore decided that I will no longer recognize the validity of the blocks/topic bans on people like Rbj, William Connolley, Brews Ohare, Likebox, Polargeo, etc. etc. etc. etc. I encourage all of them to ignore any bans/blocks as that only poses a problem for the corrupted processes that lead to these people being bocked, which can only be a good thing."^[6] This kind of provocateurism is highly counterproductive in real-life protest marches and it's not helping here either. Wnt (talk) 04:06, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

I've never looked into the entire saga with Brews ohare, but it seems to me that your being a little unfair here. The wording restricting the ban to natural sciences was clearly poorly choosen but if you run in to problems for involvement in Pythagorean theorem, it seems unlikely it's not going to occur to you that your topic ban may include mathematics and you at the very least should seek clarification on that point (perhaps even at the time the topic ban is proposed). Brews ohare is an intelligent person so it almost seems offensive to suggest it really didn't occur to him. For better or worse, wikipedia doesn't operate like a court of law and I think anyone with as much experience with wikipedias disputes processes as Brews ohare must be aware of that. Rules lawyering doesn't work on wikipedia and no one takes kindly to people who try to use loopholes to get around remedies.

As to why a one year ban was chosen here, my impression is that Brews ohare trying to argue in his defense based on this loophole was the straw that broke the camels back in a very long running saga were multiple attempts had been made to accomodate him. In other words it wasn't just violating the topic ban per se, but that arbcom decided based on the evidence of history, including the most recent evidence, there was little chance of Brews ohare successfully working in the colloborative environment of wikipedia.

In terms of your point about "ArbCom had the opportunity to take a good science editor and redirect his energies into something productive" while as I said earlier, I haven't looked in to the wider case enough to offer highly informed comment, from what I have seen (including I admit outside wikipedia, not something of course that arbcom would consider) whatever faults arbcom may have made here ultimately it Brews ohare was the one who needed to take responsibility for himself and learnt to work in the wikipedia editing environment. Arbcom may try to some extent to help an editor do so, but they don't have the time, nor should it be expected that they can hand hold and personally tutor someone step by step in to becoming a good editor. Brews ohare was given plenty of opportunities to redirect his efforts and to learn to edit wikipedia collobratively and without excessive conflict, I'm sure there were plenty of people who would have been willing to help him if he asked but ultimately he failed to do sufficiently so and continued to run into the same problems.

Or as Carcharoth (the only arbitrator who wanted a less extreme remedy) said "he is capable of good work, but then undoes all that by refusing to move on from the other areas where he runs into conflicts, and to seek to lay the blame with others, and not himself. The golden rule when topic banned is to seek clarification before others object, and to acquiesce if there is any doubt (neither of which happened here)."

Nil Einne (talk) 07:27, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

"This kind of provocateurism is highly counterproductive in real-life protest marches and it's not helping here either." This has nothing to do with the case under discussion here in particular, it is just a conclusion I reached based on many incidents, most of them have nothing to do with Brews. The system has to be changed and that won't happen via thoughtful discussions only, because of entrenched positions. The reality already is that the way the system works is by reacting to incidents, and that reaction is not always a change for the better. Just consider this amendment on the CC case. That amendment was a reaction to an incident, which already is a negative indicator. Then, I attempt to pragmatically discuss a relevant issue here (had this been addressed when it was raised much earlier, the whole problem that eventually led to the amendment wouldn't have been necessary in the first place). But that discussion goes nowhere, it is even construed by an ArbCom member to be a content discussion of an CC article that has no place there :) .

Now, for the time being, we have to deal with the system as it exists. My input in the recent dispute regarding Brews has been given here and here and on the ArbCom pages where Brews was discussed. Count Iblis (talk) 18:04, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

I would hesitate to accept that WP:IAR really means that topic banned editors should discuss the topic of their ban as long as they do it off the article page. I think that Iblis, per your name, you're playing with fire when you ask other editors to start unpredictable conflicts that may miss critical principles anyway, rather than making your own arguments.

WP:IAR and WP:AGF both support that a topic banned editor who makes good edits somewhere on the fringe of the topic ban should be treated gently. Whether or not one believes that a person topic banned in natural sciences should just assume that he has to go back to the committee and ask whether mathematics is covered, that's a power issue and not an improve-the-encyclopedia issue. Wnt (talk) 23:14, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

Paid editing?

Wikipedia:AN#Wikipedia Experts. A simple opinion would be nice, but just an FYI if you didn't see it. /ƒETCH COMMS / 16:02, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

Issue: Myanmar vs Burma

What does actually Wikipedia like to be? A political movement or an encyclopedia sticking to the facts? I don't understand why wikipedia refuses to use the name Myanmar. About common name: If the common name for USA were "United S**t from the A**" (sorry for these drastic words and comparison), should then wikipedia use that name? --112.205.7.91 (talk) 18:50, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

Yes, if "United S**t from the A**" was the most common way to refer to the country, we'd probably use that. Deli nk (talk) 18:55, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

I'm not sure why we use Burma versus Myanmar. I very much support our usual policy, which is sensible, but I'm not convinced that in this case we have kept up with the times. A search just now in google news suggests that Myanmar is now slightly more common than Burma. But I do not have a strong opinion.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 18:56, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

The naming issue is discussed very thoroughly in the article itself. I don't have much of an opinion about which name is better, but I do have a strong opinion that the IP editor is not going to be able to change this by brute force. Looie496 (talk) 19:06, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

See Talk:Burma/Myanmar and archives thereof - the upshot of which is that there is apparently no consensus to move it to Myanmar. – ukexpat (talk) 19:09, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

Ah, the Burma issue. To be honest, I would personally use what is the most common term, which at this time, is Myanmar. I believe there's an underlying bias to using the Burma name (which may imply the junta is illegitimate), and, like some things on the encyclopedia, it's completely accidental: as a Western encyclopedia, we have an underlying pro-democracy and pro-human rights bias as these are things which no-one seriously disputes are bad things. The problem is that the world isn't so black and white (see: Israel-Palestine), but all the same, we relish these challenges. I think that, in the aftermath of the election and Suu Kyi's release, the issue should be revisited. Sceptre ^(talk) 01:07, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

Though this is a bit red herring: This naming policy problem is not limited to the Myanmar/Burma/Birma topic. See Kolkata. You seem to have difficulties with your own policies. --112.205.7.91 (talk) 01:20, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

See, there is consensus to use the "modernised" Indian city names. The overriding policy here, imo, is WP:CONSENSUS, for which there is none to use "Myanmar". Strange Passerby (talk • contribs) 01:25, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

WP:Conesus seems only to apply, when it favors Western views. Anyway, I would be keen on to see the day, when it is consensus to use the name Hitlerland instead of Germany. --112.205.7.91 (talk) 01:32, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

I get the impression that unless you are being satirical, which is not apparent, you are at least 68 years out of date on that point. Rodhull andemu 01:43, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

For the record, to non-Burmese people living in Burma (Karen, Yao, etc.), the name Myanmar is highly racially charged; it's akin to the IPs example of referring to the US. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 02:43, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

Anyone check out Special:Contributions/112.205.7.91? Looks like we have a POV-pusher here who also engages in [http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php? title=United_Nations_Headquarters&diff=prev&oldid=397778829 vandalism]. Strange Passerby (talk • contribs) 01:29, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

The IP has been blocked. —Ancient Apparition • Champagne? • 12:52pm • 01:52, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

Personal Appeal

Hi Jimmy. I've seen your banners at the top of articles several times now, so I don't think seeing them again is going to affect whether I donate again or not. Is there anyway for me to customise the view so that I don't have to see them again? Thanks, 93.97.59.17 (talk) 23:25, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

You should see an "x" in the top right corner of the banner - Kingpin¹³ (talk) 23:32, 17 November 2010 (UTC)

Or register an account and check 'Suppress display of the fundraiser banner' under My preferences > Gadgets. --Step hen 02:48, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

I can only speak for myself, but I think the appeal would have more resonance if it wasn't so closely associated with Jimbo. I'd be happy to donate to the project, but those ads give me the feeling that I'd be donating to Jimbo, which is a distinctly unappealing thought. Everyking (talk) 06:00, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

The evidence from Banner testing suggests otherwise. In any event, as I'm sure you know Everyking, I don't get a salary or accept any expenses from the Wikimedia Foundation, paying my own way to board meetings, even.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 08:35, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

Eh, well as I understand it, the personal appeal one was the only graphical banner used, so it's obviously likely to generate more donations. I'd like to see some of these used. - Kingpin¹³ (talk) 13:40, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

The methodology of the testing isn't quite that simple. We tested a batch of text only banners first (as they ran last year) against the appeal (also text only) and community submitted (text only banners). From that group, we progressed to testing beyond the message and into design, but we had already determined that nothing was going to come close to beating the personal appeal. Since then, we've learned a lot from the testing, and think we might have it beat, so stick around and watch for it... but don't dismiss the testing without understanding it, maybe? :) Philippe Beaudette, Wikimedia Foundation (talk) 13:49, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

Well as I said that was only my understanding of it, and I couldn't really find any clear explanation of the method used for testing. Thanks for clarifying :). So have any graphical banners other than the personal appeal been tested yet? - Kingpin¹³ (talk) 13:54, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

If the sight of your face persuades more people to donate than otherwise would, then I suppose I can't argue with that. Everyking (talk) 18:43, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

Philippe's response was not that Jimmy's face in particular caused people to donate, but rather that a face, versus a text-only banner appealed to people. I can see that sort-of visual appeal working, but I have to agree that testing with only Jimmy's face, versus the faces of a dozen or a hundred randomly selected Wikipedians would have been a much better test. It shouldn't be that complex to create a rotating Wikipedian-face banner. Wjhonson (talk) 21:26, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

Well, I think that the point is that Jimmy's the recognizable face of Wikipedia. Regardless of whatever else role he may have, he most certainly is an icon people readily associate with Wikipedia — a figurehead in the proper sense. — Coren ^(talk) 04:04, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

In terms Everyking's point above ("but those ads give me the feeling that I'd be donating to Jimbo, which is a distinctly unappealing thought") I suspect most people with limited or no editing experience are unlikely to have strong feelings about JW either way. Nil Einne (talk) 07:59, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

I for one find it very hard to believe that you don't pocket at least a small fraction of the donations Jimbo! Go on you can admit it here Jim, your secret is safe with us anyway. :P Certainly the goons at ED seem to think so with their parody banner! 93.97.59.17 (talk) 04:41, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

I think the banner works because of the combination of Jimbo's face and the personal appeal message. I guess people prefer to donate to someone they can identify rather than a faceless organization (no matter how good its intentions are). Laurent (talk) 05:08, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

I personally find the appeal pretty close to offensive. Here is an organisation that is so successful that it could raise millions of dollars by advertising, and probably make donations to all sorts of deserving causes. Instead it constantly begs for money, in competition with those other deserving causes. All in the name of independence and lack of bias. Yet the site is happy to tie itself to Google search. And making itself reliant on a limited number of "Benefactors" instead of being much more independent, relying only on non-selective advertising feeds from many. many advertisers.But more importantly, it is tied to people who strongly object to advertising. so strongly that they would stop contributing if it took advertising. That is a huge built in bias against the commercial world. A couple of years back there was some attempt to put Wikipedia on a real road to independence and authority. Including the set up of several working groups. Including a working group to investigate ways and means of funding Wikipedia to ensure it's long lived independence. One strong proposition was to introduce user Opt in/Opt out advertising for a period of time to build up a real Foundation to ensure long term funding. But basically the working group was sham. It's set up was a sham. It turned out Jimbo had already made his own decision. No advertising, not even if a user wanted informative advertising, just never ending appeals, and an uncertain future for Wikipedia. No discussion. The working group just vanished, unheeded.--Richardb43 (talk) 11:25, 21 November 2010 (UTC)

Constantly? No, it's once a year I think.

Uncertain future? Where's the evidence for that?

--Demiurge1000 (talk) 11:33, 21 November 2010 (UTC)

You have friends from Anonymous

File:4chan loves jimbo.png

Full size - click here

Its very big, trying to get stuff sorted about copyright stuff.

so enjoy before its deleted :)

Sophie ^(Talk) 18:37, 18 November 2010 (UTC)

I LOL'd ^_^ - Alison ^❤ 02:51, 19 November 2010 (UTC)
Is it me, or does Jimbo look like a Senate candidate so bad he got defeated by a write-in candidate these days? Sceptre ^(talk) 01:09, 20 November 2010 (UTC)
It's not just you. Is there a word for facial hair that is beyond a 5 O'clock shadow but not a beard yet? Also, it sure would be nice if that banner didn't reappear every so often. Magog the Ogre (talk) 19:01, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

Hey Jimbo!

Hey I wanted to thank you for having a open door policy with the editors here. While the answer isn't always what a person wants it is at the very least refreshing to see that you are a active member of and not above the wiki community. This is a awesome site and concept even with all the drama. Hell In A Bucket (talk) 16:08, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

Personal appeal banners

Hi, just a quick note to say that Jimbo's personal appeal banners seem to be causing a bit of a problem today, for me, at least. The banners keep reappearing even if one clicks to clear them. I gather from this discussion that I'm not the only one affected by this, and I have updated my Adblock filter accordingly. (I edit via Firefox for Mac, if that's of any significance) best, Shawn in Montreal (talk) 20:58, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

I see that I'm also unable to remove articles on my watchlist by clicking on the star. I have to remove them manually from the raw list. All of which makes me think I'm experiencing some kind of common server lag problem, making Jim's talk page the wrong place to raise this, surely. Shawn in Montreal (talk) 21:06, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

You'll want to bring this up at WP:VPT instead; Mr. Wales is not one of the programmers. Magog the Ogre (talk) 21:17, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

Talk pages by size

Please see the new page Wikipedia:Database reports/Talk pages by size (to be updated weekly). This talk page ranks sixth, with 19085 kilobytes. Perhaps this will motivate greater efficiency in the use of kilobytes.
—Wavelength (talk) 21:43, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Wikipedia:The Jimbo Prayer

Might be interesting for you.--Müdigkeit (talk) 06:22, 21 November 2010 (UTC)

Note:This page is 4 years old.--Müdigkeit (talk) 06:25, 21 November 2010 (UTC)

Found other strange ones in Wiki namespace: Wikipedia:Rickbag..., Wikipedia:Ric1234, etc. Περσεύς|Talk to me 14:08, 21 November 2010 (UTC)

Subject notability guidelines that override verifiability

Jimbo,

It's bugged me for quite a while that we have subject specific notability guidelines like WP:PROF and WP:ATH that are being used to override WP:V in deletion debates. These guidelines allow articles sourced entirely from self published works in violation of WP:SELFPUB and our basic principles of verifiability. I brought this up at the last BLP RFC and it attracted significant agreement, but as the RFC closer rightly noted, this practice is so ingrained in the community, that it's almost impossible to declare consensus on the matter.

Over and over, I see the number of times that a professor's work has been cited (h-index) being used as a criteria for keeping or deleting an article, regardless of the existence of independent biographical coverage. We then base the article entirely on their self-published biography, or even worse, whatever the person wrote about themselves in Wikipedia, since many of these are autobiographies. This recent AfD is a prime example of WP:PROF overriding the requirement for secondary sources.

The fundamental problem here is that the subject specific notability guidelines are taken to override the general notability guideline, which requires actual third party coverage, a prerequisite for satisfying WP:V. Do you have any ideas about how to address this? Do you think there's any way that you or the foundation can provide further leadership on this matter? Gigs (talk) 04:22, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

Hmm, while I do tend to agree with you, I would like to think about this some more. One thing about professors is that the relevant biographical facts tend to be easily verifiable, so that for example, where a professor works is generally posted on an authoritative page (the website of the Univeristy), and their publications are in peer-reviewed academic journals and thus also easily verifiable. I do see some risk of WP:SELFPUB with respect to some aspects of their biographies (e.g. taking their degree information from their CV), but even here, I see little risk, as faking a CV that is posted on a univeristy website would surely get them fired if false. It's not the same as, for example, a blogging persona who posts about themselves on wordpress with information that could very well be made up from scratch, with no repercussions.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 05:03, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

My impression is the subject specific guidelines never override the GNG per se, and each of the guidelines should make this clear. I have definitely in an AFD in the past mentioned this in relation to one specific subject specific guideline. The subject guidelines simply provide a rule of thumb to deciding whether someone is likely to meet the GNG (since actually hunting down sources is not always easy). Therefore it seems to me the problem is not that the subject specific guidelines override the GNG but that we are having trouble deciding when it has become clear that the subject fails the GNG even though the rule of thumb suggests they should and perhaps that the rule of thumb is overly broad. In terms of the specific wording, Wikipedia:Notability (sports) does make it clear it doesn't overide GNG although WP:PROF doesn't appear to. Nil Einne (talk) 09:29, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

There's currently deferential language in the introduction of WP:N, "A topic can also be considered notable if it meets the criteria outlined in any of the subject-specific guidelines listed in the box on the right." Which, in practice has meant "if it meets the SNG the GNG doesn't matter". Gigs (talk) 14:16, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

RfC regarding child athlete notability

As if on cue, an RfC has opened that, in my opinion, is a symptom of WP:ATHLETE having a bar that is far too low and that doesn't require secondary source coverage. The RfC asks if we should have special notability standards for child athletes. Gigs (talk) 02:19, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

This is a thoroughly incorrect portrayal of the situation and the RFC; the RFC is on all BLPs of minors, not just on those of athletes under 18. Strange Passerby (talk • contribs) 02:41, 21 November 2010 (UTC)

At this point, I'm not sure anyone knows what the RfC is supposed to be about. The people at the DRV seemed to ask for an RfC on special notability rules for child athletes, but it looks like the opener tried to reframe it more generally, and posted it on WT:BLP instead of on the talk for the notability guidelines, where it probably should have been. My take above was what I understood the topic to be. Gigs (talk) 18:02, 21 November 2010 (UTC)

A perennial proposal, I suppose

As an indirect result of editing Bryan Fischer I today looked at Brian Fisher. (The resemblance between the two is limited to their names.) I was surprised to read there that When not working in the field, Dr. Fisher lives with the banana slugs in a treehouse in Marin County. Carefully marked up, but slightly unidiomatic, highly implausible, and of course completely unsourced.

The not-marked-up predecessor of this turned out to have been added by a hit-and-run halfwit--what? "NPA"? so block me!--with a throwaway username on 15 May 2009. Some other user solemnly marked it up later.

I'm unrelated to Brian Fisher. I'd never heard of him till today. I'll bet he's heard of Wikipedia though.

This isn't at the Seigenthaler level, of course, but it's embarrassing.

Wikipedia seems to work hard to avoid anything that might deter newcomers from editing. But I think there are way too many newcomers and the people deterred by some hurdles would have a disproportionate number of halfwits. I'm for a slower-growing but better Wikipedia. Tama1988 (talk) 04:00, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia that anyone can edit. Access Denied – talk to me 04:02, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

Yes, I know. And "anyone" encompasses "any halfwit". Corollary: "Wikipedia, the free 'encyclopedia' that makes it so easy to add stupid comments that they are numerous and can last over a year." Or again: "Wikipedia, likely to be the top hit at Google for your name, and likely to publish untruths about you." Access Denied--If only it were! But it isn't. If you've got an internet connection and a mental age of nine, you too can spread lies in a place that will make those lies look authoritative. Never have the silly (or malicious) had so much power. Tama1988 (talk) 07:11, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

You're addressing a problem that's well-known and doesn't seem to have an easy solution; you might want to read all the archives about it at Wikipedia talk:Biographies of living persons. Personally, I tend to agree with you, but there are quite a few other opinions out there. Choyoołʼįįhí:Seb az86556 ^{> haneʼ} 14:02, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

I haven't reviewed the history of this in detail yet, but based on your description, Tama1988, this follows a pattern that concerns me greatly - and the analogy to Siegenthaler is apt. The problem here is two fold - first, the relatively minor problem of the initial throwaway bad-behaved account, easily detected and blocked. Second, the much more troubling followup of someone solemnly (your word, and a great one to use here!) marking up utter nonsense instead of reverting it.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 08:13, 21 November 2010 (UTC)

I checked this out and hoped the person doing the mark up was a new user or even an IP. Nope, it was an administrator who will celebrate 8 years of editing next month. Disgraceful. AniMate 09:02, 21 November 2010 (UTC)

Actually, after doing some digging, the banana slugs in a treehouse claim appears to be based on this seminar where Dr. Fisher does indeed claim to live in a treehouse with banana slugs in Marin County. AniMate 09:09, 21 November 2010 (UTC)

The wording on the seminar page is identical to what was in the article here, so I'd be inclined to suggest that they got that from Wikipedia, given that the seminar was recent. However, while I can't find anything I can really trust to confirm whether or not he does live in a treehouse, (the Marian County sounds right, the rest less so), there is a Brian Fisher who makes treehouses professionally - so even if it wasn't accurate, there's a chance that this is simple confusion over two people with the same name rather than deliberate vandalism. Vandalism is still in the running, though, and this is why WP:V is so important. - Bilby (talk) 12:42, 21 November 2010 (UTC)

Thank you all for your thoughtful responses. In my own talk page, AniMate pointed to credible sources for this claim. (It's odd that they're phrased in exactly the same way, with "the banana slugs"--my emphasis--even though it's the first time the slugs are mentioned.) So I've readded the material, but this time slightly rephrased, and with sources.

I now think I was wrong. Certainly I should have Googled before moaning about the matter here.

My confidence newly shattered, I shall now refrain from deleting from William Foley His favorite colour is purple as seen by the numerous shirts he wears in that colour, and enjoys the Reuben sandwich. / Quotes:"We are all male americans" (my latest bizarre discovery). After all, Foley's photo on his own web page shows him in a purple sweater, there's nothing either implausible or embarrassing about an enjoyment of Reuben sandwiches, and for all I know Foley could have used "We are all male Americans" as an example in some linguistics exercise. Proper sourcing would be welcome, though. Tama1988 (talk) 10:25, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

Usurping people without edits

I think there should be something that automatically puts a message and on a user's talk page that doesn't have and edit AND (not OR or AND/OR) hasn't edited in 2 years, then usurps them. That would make it alot easier for people that want their username changed to not have to go through the usurpation process, because the username they want is already usurped. A Word Of Advice From A Beast: Don't Be Silly, Wrap Your Willy! 00:55, 22 November 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Beastly21 (talk • contribs)

By GFDL, edits must be attributable; so even after a long delay, if an account has edits, these, and their history, should be preserved. Rodhull andemu 01:46, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

Request

Dear Jimmy, I am a Wikipedia contributor in the Portuguese language and am requesting your intervention in the project. There exists among us a tremendous amount of intrigue, harassment, personal threats, inadequate block, clash of egos and power abuses. I can not stand such injustice, so many users with destructive behavior, so much political intrigue and partiality in administrators. The new users are intimidated and abandon the project, edit wars proliferate and the bad users trying to silence their opponents with lock requests without foundation. Users with bad behavior are protected by administrators and users who try to expose corruption are blocked. The rule is trying to impose views and threaten to block those who disagree with arbitrariness. I am tired. This project is broken, please dismisses administrators and cancel their arbitrary actions, otherwise the credibility of Wikipedia is extinguished. Thank you.

PS: sorry for my bad english. Leandro LV (talk) 20:07, 21 November 2010 (UTC)

Jimbo rarely gets involved in other wikis. Problems with other wikis properly belong at Meta, here. Rodhull andemu 01:54, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

Copied:[[7]]--Müdigkeit (talk) 02:22, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

Well, Jimbo is a member of the Board. He could discuss this with the other members if it´s as worse as told above.--Müdigkeit (talk) 02:40, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

Okay, thanks. Leandro LV (talk) 05:58, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

Guys, my request was removed by a brazilian steward. This is more a way of hiding the truth from the stewards. Please forward this request for intervention as possible, I do not have experience or good English, so my ability to act is limited. Thanks again. Leandro LV (talk) 02:22, 23 November 2010 (UTC) No, it was moved here.--Müdigkeit (talk) 03:11, 23 November 2010 (UTC)

Thanks, I've writed my reply there. Leandro LV (talk) 04:22, 23 November 2010 (UTC)

Paid editing of biographies, BLP subjects, legal threats, sockpuppets, years-long edit war …

This one has all of your your favourites in one horrendous bundle. Except perhaps a member of the British aristocracy.

Franz Lidz (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
Robert Garside (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)
Bloomsbury Publishing
Paid editing
Conflicts of interest
Legal threats all over the place including here, here, here, and here
A cast of a thousand … well, possibly at least forty on one side and umpteen IP addresses and several accounts on the other … sockpuppets

Spare a thought for poor Moonriddengirl: User talk:Moonriddengirl#Robert Garside. Xe has paid editors on the one side, and a BLP subject who has been edit warring for almost three years on the other. The paid editors apparently all work for a U.S. publishing company subsidiary and are paid to edit the biographies of their clients. One can deduce that the forty single-purpose accounts to be found here are fellow employees, or perhaps just the one person. They clash because the BLP subject doesn't like the information that is in the Franz Lidz article, apparently added by the paid editors, that is about xem. The BLP subject has, separately, been complaining and edit warring over the article about xem since April 2007. The situation has already descended to legal threats being bandied about, and responded to via edit summaries here, here, and here.

Asking for the British aristocracy to be involved as well would seem greedy at this point.

Uncle G (talk) 17:43, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

Just for the record, this has already been through OTRS and escalated to legal: Ticket:2009092210036291. I don't know how it was resolved there, since I have no access to that queue. Other tickets: Ticket:2007040110007284, Ticket:2007090310005684, Ticket:2007090310006209, Ticket:2008060310022347, Ticket:2009072910028611, Ticket:2009092510040725, Ticket:2010101810006691. There may be others also bounced to legal or which didn't turn up in my search.

For the sake of your talk page stalkers, I'll explain further: there's little doubt that User:Dromeaz is also indef-blocked user User:TheLongestRoadToIndiaGate, but he has generally done a much better job of working within procedures this time and blocking him doesn't seem constructive if he will do that. It does concern me that he seems at this point intent on rolling back changes with which he disagrees on the basis that he is comfortable with the article as it was on a given date. He has compromised a great deal, I believe, in what he would like the article to say, but does seem intent to eliminate any reference to the article Mr. Lidz wrote for Sports Illustrated from Franz Lidz: [8]. Some of his concerns are certainly legitimate. The article Robert Garside has had balance issues, text in Franz Lidz has sometimes been unduly slanted against Mr. Garside, and edit summaries have frankly passed the point of "personal attack." He goes overboard, though, when he views words such as "controversial" as libellous and suggests that an editor of three years standing who came to the article yesterday is part of a conspiracy. Today, he wrote at my talk page, "In 2007 Mr. Garside got his world record which is WHY this person became an editor in 2007. They drove this article into an edit war because they are an opponent of Mr. Garside. They have, on and off, been edit warring with Mr. Garside for years under different names." I've been trying to explain things to him, and perhaps he no longer thinks that User:UnicornTapestry is part of this presumed conspiracy, although he does obviously still find his changes "as a personal attack against a living person" which he "must defend that at any cost."

Anyway, I'll continue trying to explain and working as best as I can to try to keep things neutral and in policy. Since I've edited the article, I am no longer uninvolved. Half wish I'd stayed that way. :) --Moonriddengirl ^(talk) 18:17, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

"Klaatu barada nikto" A personal appeal.

Sorry for "The day The Earth Stood Still" reference but I wanted to grab your attention.

I remember seeing this appeal last year and had a great idea for you. It's a little twist on an established concept and is definitely not advertising but more a community service concept. Hating to just give it away to some ladder climbing robot reader, I didn't follow up. I'd be happy to give this idea to you and Wiki.

If you run with it, I would ask only that you to consider me to play an integral part of promoting this revenue generating idea.

I will present you with my idea, if I see a non robot response.

75.177.110.227 (talk) 04:20, 23 November 2010 (UTC)

Somebody bring me a flower, I'm a robot. Seriously, fire away.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 15:14, 23 November 2010 (UTC)

Code of conduct for 2011

2011 will be here soon.

Do you think it would be a good idea to have a voluntary code of conduct for editors for the new year? Right now, there is a lot of bad behavior in Wikipedia. Sometimes people are just being rude, other times some edits seem like troublemaking.

If there is any interest, I'd be happy to draft it with others. However, I'm not going to waste my time creating a document if there is opposition. பின்லாந்துF (talk) 20:03, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

I think there already is one of those. See Wikipedia:Five pillars, especially the fourth one and the various pages that link from the explanation. Taken together, those are basically the code of conduct. The trick is to get people to abide by the "code", especially when (and I'll keep this as general as possible) some of the people who are supposed to be enforcing the "code" sometimes act in a rude and troublemaking manner themselves. Neutron (talk) 20:42, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

This from the user whose 20th edit ever was to come to the defense of an obvious sock of a banned user (this sock, specifically). The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 21:23, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

I wish to note that User:The Blade of the Northern Lights appears to be referring to the editor who started this thread, and not to me. I do not know anything about the dispute you are talking about, nor any of the participants. I was just commenting on the general idea that there is too much bad behavior, rudeness and troublemaking on Wikipedia at present, which I agree with regardless of who makes the point or what they may or may not have done while I wasn't looking, and I was also pointing out that there is already a code of good behavior in place. Neutron (talk) 22:44, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

You're correct in who I was referring to; without commenting on its merits, I was simply pointing out the irony of someone raising this issue after defending an extremely disruptive, quacking sock. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 00:55, 23 November 2010 (UTC)

Those interested in the subject may wish to visit Wikipedia:Expectations and norms of the Wikipedia community, a work in progress.--SPhilbrick T 17:54, 23 November 2010 (UTC)

This may be of interest: Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost/2010-09-27/News and notes#Citizendium adopts charter, Larry Sanger's leading role ends.

—Wavelength (talk) 20:47, 23 November 2010 (UTC)

I have a question...

Are you going to start charging people to use Wikipedia? I really don't have the money to donate and it seems like Wikipedia is going through very dire times. I hope you don't charge to use it (otherwise, I'll have to use Encarta or pull out my old World Book). Please don't. If you have to do anything, put up ads.

Please! Please don't charge! Waaaaa!!!! I want to cry over this. Don't charge us poor peons. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.178.153.244 (talk) 16:40, 23 November 2010 (UTC)

No, Wikipedia will remain free. Fund raising is an important and serious thing, but the situation is not dire. Don't worry. And if you can't afford to contribute money, that's perfectly fine! Contribute in some other way, like improving an article in some small way.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 22:13, 23 November 2010 (UTC)

Editors contribute by giving their time. Some will also be prepared to pay for editing. No ads please. Charge money but no ads please.Yogesh Khandke (talk) 07:50, 24 November 2010 (UTC)

Ugly mug!

I wouldn't mind giving money to Wikipedia, or, say, paying a couple of quid a year to use it. But your ugly mug doesn't turn me on or make me wanna donate you know...

No offence, like. I'm sure women go for the grizzly look. But I don't need it! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.181.253.128 (talk) 19:31, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

I suppose I'm making an assumption here, but: Do you only donate to causes where the solicitation is made by an attractive woman? For example, at winter-holiday time, do you only throw change in the can when Santa is female? (I haven't seen one yet, but you never know...) Neutron (talk) 20:32, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

Santa Baby might be a model for next year's appeal. Rodhull andemu 23:26, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

You have aged. "Ugly mug" might be a little far and a little salt and pepper never hurt a guy's image too bad (I'd say see Sean Connery but that is decades away for you). However, it is a little weird that every banner has your face. I assume you are not looking for a personality cult or anything, but this new campaign lacked some vision. The "personal appeal" was overshadowed by your image everywhere. So someone might have screwed up since you don't look like Alyssa Milano. That is partially the problem of the demographics of those who hit the site the most. I'm not donating regardless due to the trainwreck regarding sexual images. It will all work out and we have Google if it doesn't.Cptnono (talk) 09:37, 23 November 2010 (UTC)

Hooray! Disregard parts of above. I just saw a banner with someone else in it.Cptnono (talk) 22:31, 23 November 2010 (UTC)

This campaign is only making me consider installing adblock.

It's irritating, pervasive and gives the worst possible message.

If wikipedia is desperate for help it should say so, and your stare is only widely percieved (I checked) as a disturbing "will you come to bed with me?" look.

There are already spoffs and criticism all over the internet including a google chrome extension that puts your big brother face over each and every page you browse.

Ok you made a point, you made something sensational, spectacular, you made people talk, you got some of that Steve Jobs innuendo.

Now stop. I can't stand another monthful of that stare.

Zingus J. Rinkle (talk) 00:48, 25 November 2010 (UTC)

"A swiss-german wikipedia doesn't exist"

Hi Jimbo

You made the quote above during this interview. Fortunately you're wrong, the alemannic Wikipedia (my home wiki) covers all swiss-german idioms. Unfortunately for us you didn't knew. But surely next time! ;-) --Umschattiger (talk) 15:52, 24 November 2010 (UTC)

Oh dear, and I pride myself on keeping track of such things. I apologize for the error!--Jimbo Wales (talk) 16:36, 24 November 2010 (UTC)

Kartika

Who is this "Kartika" person, and why is her "personal appeal" being featured? Kartika, while registered on both sites, has never made an edit (at least under that name) to either the English or Indonesian Wikipedias. [9] [10] Could you please clarify this for the readership? Is she actually a "Wikipedia author" at all? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.227.56.16 (talk) 18:48, 24 November 2010 (UTC)

I'm not the right person to ask - I haven't seen the banner.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 18:50, 24 November 2010 (UTC)

This is what I am talking about. 68.227.56.16 (talk) 18:58, 24 November 2010 (UTC)

She was at Wikimania; I don't know what her home wiki is.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 19:06, 24 November 2010 (UTC)

There is a bit of information about her at this blog post by GerardM. From her full name mentioned in that post, I discovered that she edits as 22Kartika in both the English and Indonesian Wikipedias. Graham87 03:00, 25 November 2010 (UTC)

Your appeal

This refers to the appeal here[11].

Do you have an India office. Those who don't have plastic money like me can send cheques there, to support wikipedia, a small but regular contribution.
1. Wikipedia could relocate its operations to India, saving a lot of money and taking pressure off its bottom line. I am not in software etc. by the way and not looking for a job, etc., just a logical cost saving exercise suggestion.Yogesh Khandke (talk) 10:48, 21 November 2010 (UTC)

There are initiatives underway regarding presence in India, but I didn't pay attention so someone more knowledgeable will comment on that. However, I will say this about plastic money. Sadly, so many people have plastic money now, that for most fundraising drives, the cost of arranging for members of staff in a particular country to receive, cash, account, account for, legally clear, audit, etc etc., individual cheque/check (spelling varies according to location, so you were not wrong) donations, is more than the amount of money likely to be received. You also have to consider the possibility that the organisation then has to make separate arrangements for whatever restrictions exist on transferring such monies out of the country back to the parent organisation, then they have to somehow make arrangements for explaining all of these various expenses-incurred-in-fundraising in their accounting in the home country of how fundraising expenses were incurred, and they need extra people (or a portion of some people's time, possibly involving legal or accounting expertise) in order to do this. It just all gets too much.

I know little about Wikipedia's costs, but given its popularity and the robust existing software base, it is obvious that server hosting is a much larger proportion of the cost than software development, so outsourcing the entire outfit to India seems unlikely to happen anytime soon. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 02:52, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

Most of the software development is done for free I think, pretty hard to undercut those rates. :) Arranging mobile-phone based payments might be more feasible than setting up local offices to handle paper transactions, and possibly available to many more people too. Franamax (talk) 03:16, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

There is no need of physically handling cheques. Payment can be made into the bank account of Wikipedia from other branches of that bank, from any location. For example if Wikipedia has an account with State Bank of India, Dadar, Mumbai branch, and account number is 1234567890123456 (sixteen digit no.), payment can be deposited into that account through any of the thousands of branches in India. Of-course there will be other legal formalities. But I know of atleast one US based charity Rotary International which receives millions of dollars from India Yogesh Khandke (talk) 12:53, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

Is the Wikipedia Foundation balance sheet in public domain. What are the salary costs?Yogesh Khandke (talk) 12:54, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

Yes. See here Gigs (talk) 23:21, 22 November 2010 (UTC)

Am I the only one who finds it rather perverse to ask for donations from a country where the GDP, per person, is $1,032, to support an organization which recently decided to move to one of the most expensive locations in the US, and which wants to spend $10 million on salaries and travel? 96.15.21.223 (talk) 01:00, 23 November 2010 (UTC)

Well, there are actually people in India with a lot of money; I suspect that's who the WMF is targeting. If so many people from India edit here, why shouldn't they? The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 04:50, 23 November 2010 (UTC)

Well as per anon above I do have a point in that relocation would save costs greatly. I also agree with The Blade of the Northern Lights. For example I am prepared to pay per edit, say Rs. 1 per edit. A small sum. But there are many users and if they contribute Rs. 1 per minute on an average, some contributing more others not at all, that would be a lot of money. How many edits originate from India per year, assuming there are a 44 million edits a year or a 5000 an hour, that would amount to a million dollars a year. Though India is a poor country, it does contribute, for example it has a very high contribution to the Rotary Foundation. It is the third highest contributor to the Rotary Foundation one of the worlds largest NGO.[12]Yogesh Khandke (talk) 07:47, 24 November 2010 (UTC)

I had hoped Mr. Wales would have put in a word.Yogesh Khandke (talk) 07:54, 24 November 2010 (UTC)

Perhaps Mr. Wales selects replies on edit summaries and I have a poor record regarding that. Mr. Wales please look at the above.Yogesh Khandke (talk) 08:00, 24 November 2010 (UTC)

Sorry to have taken so long to respond to this one. We are planning to open our first office in India within the next 6 months; the precise location has not been chosen yet. Barry Newstead at the Wikimedia Foundation is heading up that effort.

Regarding donations from India, I have received a few emails from people during this fund drive asking about how we might make that easier than it is right now. I've passed those concerns along to Zack for his consideration for improvements for next year.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 09:33, 24 November 2010 (UTC)

The Rotary Foundation methodology on transfering funds from India could be studied. Perhaps Mr. Wales could comment on out-sourcing as a means of achieving greater effeciency? Yogesh Khandke (talk) 19:05, 25 November 2010 (UTC)

I am all for it and think that it represents an interesting possibility. I should note that it is nontrivial and there are many different factors to consider. Further I note that I am not really the primary decisionmaker on such things, although I am an active board member.--Jimbo Wales (talk) 19:10, 25 November 2010 (UTC)

I'm glad you like the idea. Over and out.Yogesh Khandke (talk) 19:19, 25 November 2010 (UTC)