User talk:Steven Crossin/Archive 15

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RyRy/Rollback

Hi Steve! There's a thread about RyRy and rollback that you might want to chime in on since you're working with him and had something to say before TravellingCarithe Busy Bee 18:35, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

Hello, Steven Crossin. You have new messages at Saranghae honey's talk page.
You can remove this notice at any time by removing the {{Talkback}} or {{Tb}} template.

All the GAN stuff you need!

dihydrogen monoxide (H2O) 09:02, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Lady Aleena's future

Steve Crossin...Several people have expressed an interest in my next probable nomination for adminship. Messaging people when it happens would look a lot like canvassing, so I would prefer not doing that. If you are interested in it, you could add this to your watchlist. If it is created, you will know, maybe even before I do depending on how often you check your watchlist. If you wish to gush prior to it being officially up, have fun, but only when it happens please. I am in no particular rush. Have a very nice day! :) - LA @ 09:48, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

checkY Added to my watchlist. Just finished my first GA. Woo! :D Steve Crossin (talk) (review) 09:57, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Martha Logan

Hi Steve - yes, if that quote was in the article rather than in a footnote, then a case could be made that it passes NFCC#8. But it must be in the text; after all, we are trying to make things easy for the reader! Black Kite 14:12, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

  • Either I'm going mad or that quote isn't in the text of the article! Could you add it in? Black Kite 14:46, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
The article looks really good! I would press on, do more of these, like Charles Logan and David Palmer which definitely have enough info to get to GA. Judgesurreal777 (talk) 18:27, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Revamping of "24" Episode Lists

I'm not quite sure what you mean by that. Do you want the episode lists collapsed by default, or just the ability to collapse them? Either way, I have not seen that done on any other episode lists. SeanMooney (talk) 01:24, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Tibet during the Ming Dynasty

Hi, Steve. I still have to trouble you once again since I only know you on English wiki. Sorry! You mush be quite aware of what's going on in the page Tibet during the Ming Dynasty or any article concerning the issue of Tibet. To be honest, I'm really dead. I just want to present another viewpoint about the history of Tibet, since chez us, we all consider Tibet was always an independent country before the arrival of Chinese Communists. However, these days' edit depressed me deeply. Every argument that I added shall be heavily questioned and can be randomly deleted, even many sources provided. You may know, I'm the single person who present of pro-Chinese-sovereignty scholars' viewpoint. (Although it doesn't represent my position.) Contrarily, there're a big gang of users who oppose this viewpoint, User:PericlesofAthens to be an excellent example. In fact I appreciate much this guy since he is also the only person who provides the arguments of another viewpoint till now. But this guy, as well as other persons, is so self-righteous and unscrupulous that he can modify/delete any argument of mine if he likes. I'm not a native English-speaker, which means I cannot make an eloquent speech with him, or them. I found I can no longer edit the article since my sources are constantly deleted and it's very very exhausting to monitor each sentence in a huge page like this.

Moreover, I came to feel that the English wiki seems to be controlled by an indescribable power. The map of last negotiation of Ming Dynasty, File:MingEmpire.png was even strangely deleted, (it's an entirely self-made work at the base of Sinomap Press and Harvard Press) and replaced by a totally inaccurate map which completely ignores one side of scholars' viewpoint. At the same time, there's a happening that a map (British Empire Anachronous 8.png, self-made and without any source) that tells Tibet was part of British Empire shows itself unshamelessly in the head of its article, and it's ridiculous that Tibet is absent in the historical true map just above. Meanwhile, no one object in this case.

Maybe you are very busy, or not able to intervene into the conflict. So I want to ask you if it exists a possibility that only the administers can modify the article, while other users provide the arguments to administers. I think the article can stay stable only in this way and the vandalism can be finally stopped. Thanks.--LaGrandefr (talk) 15:14, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Yes, I'm very busy. And, administrators can't lock articles, unless it's a content dispute, then it's not long term. File a request for mediation at the Mediation Cabal, that's your best course of action. Steve Crossin (talk) (review) 15:21, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Mediation Cabal/Cases/2008-05-17 Tibet during the Ming Dynasty is created. I hope it has a good effect. Regards.--LaGrandefr (talk) 15:55, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
Is it a joke? I did what you told me and requested for mediation in order to look for a solution of the page. And you gave a ☒N in saying NO. Why not tell me here? You didn't propose a solution, either. So we let the conflict in deadlock like this?--LaGrandefr (talk) 16:17, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
Hi, I received your reply on my talk page. I don't know what Wikipedia allows and I'm sure you know much better than me. So could you please find a solution to resolve the vandalism on the article?--LaGrandefr (talk) 16:25, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

It's really a content dispute rather than vandalism. I'm sure mediation will resolve the content dispute. Best of luck. Steve Crossin (talk) (review) 16:41, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Could you tell me where the dispute is? It doesn't exist. The only problem is that some users constantly delete the scholarly sourced arguments added by me. I also wish good luck for myself, but how?--LaGrandefr (talk) 16:55, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

So, you're saying that they keep reverting the edits? Show me diffs of their reverts, I might look into it. Steve Crossin (talk) (review) 16:56, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Since the article is constantly modified and User:PericlesofAthens is used to editing the article little by little, it's difficult to find in which hour or in which day they deleted the arguments added by me. But I still try finding some. It's more evident that the 2 tables, Ming's administrative division in Tibet and the Tibetan lamas appointed by Ming were ceaselessly deleted by someone. Even sourced, some user can still ask the source in deleting the source cited. And if you look here, you'll see Ming court put to use the policy «managing Tibet according to conventions and customs, granting more titles and setting up more organs» (因俗以治，多封眾建) over Tibet. [1] modified (deleted already many times). The paragraph Meanwhile, Chen states that HOU Xian (候顯) was sent by Ming court in 1413 to Tibet, ordering the Phagmodru to give back the Sakya Monastery to Sakya, which shows Ming court has the power to resolve the arguments among the religious sects in Tibet.[2] and bestowed a seal to lead all the Buddhists of During his stay in Nanjing, Deshin Shekpa was bestowed with the title Great Treasure Prince of Dharma (大寶法王) by Yongle.[3] were also deleted, etc. And this is just a large revision of one time. There're much more if we make the small revision. I had to monitor each sourced argument added by me these days to know if they were deleted or not. It's very exhausting!--LaGrandefr (talk) 17:34, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Your Wikipedia Skills

You've got to be a Top 10 all-time Wikipedian. Every error I make, you're right there to correct it. You may be a robot of some sort. Tool2Die4 (talk) 16:01, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Well, I have every 24 article (redirects, merged articles, and current articles) watchlisted, therefore, when an edit is made to a 24 related article, I know. I also have a watchlist script, so when my watchlist changes, I get a small notification. So, yes, I pick up after "errors". And for the record, I'm not a robot, however, I do have one, SteveCrossinBot. I'll mainly use it for the 24 Project. Which reminds me.... Steve Crossin (talk) (review) 16:06, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

24Bot

We edit conflicted and I've performed the rename. Please let me know if you'd like it renamed back. The Rambling Man (talk) 17:12, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

It's done. The Rambling Man (talk) 17:20, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
) Thanks a lot :) Steve Crossin (talk) (review) 17:23, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Travel Guide

Not mine. Where was it resolved? 21655 ταλκ/01ҁ 17:19, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Resolved here. Steve Crossin (talk) (review) 17:31, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

24 Wikia

I think you have me confused with someone else. I've made just a few edits on 24wikia over the years - have not even registered an account there (yet). I do not have any issues of the Official 24 Magazine either. SeanMooney (talk) 22:24, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Bot Adding Banner to Image Talk?

Umm its a little peculiar that your bot is adding the 24 Wikiproject banner to image talk. It is inappropriate for WikiProject banners to be added to Image talk :/...so I'm going to go ahead and delete those. You may want to take a look at your bot's coding before running it again.¤~Persian Poet Gal (talk) 19:29, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

No that's ok. I took a look at some other WikiProjects and I didn't realize how its becoming more typical to add them to image talk now. Sorry if I seemed brash and deleted them so quickly...there was a situation recently with a bot that went out of control and created thousands of unnecessary under a 100k subpages. No worries though, feel free to get the bot to add them back if you like.¤~Persian Poet Gal (talk) 03:30, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

DYK:Ronald Joy

I have promoted yet another DYK. Also, if a user adds a comment like "fuck" or anything similar to an article when not necessary, what warning should be used?--RyRy5 (talk ♠ Review) 23:58, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

I'd say a {{uw-vand}} of whaqtever level (first offence, level 1, and so on). would suffice. Congrats on the DYK, I've just recently got a GA, Martha Logan. Sorry about the delay, I was asleep. Steve Crossin (talk) (review) 05:26, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

It's okay. I'm guessing that Ausralia has a different time than here in America. Anyway, I think I will sitck with DYK creating/nominating/expanding for a while as I am quite experienced with that. Congrats, and thank you. ;) -- RyRy5 (talk ♠ Review) 00:16, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

Note I misspelled my GA, I fixed it above. I've been working on my bot, its SteveCrossinBot (interesting name :P) It can do a fair few Wikiproject tasks, have a look at what it's approved to do. Steve Crossin (talk) (review) 00:18, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

I looked at it yesterday. If I remember, it delivers newsletters or something similar such as notices. I'll look at it again.--RyRy5 (talk ♠ Review) 00:20, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

  • It's had another task approved recently, and one other task I'm waiting for a trial. Steve Crossin (talk) (review) 00:22, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

Well, I guess that's good to here. I'll be a little busy for a while, but will still be online. Cheers.--RyRy5 (talk ♠ Review) 00:28, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

I just noticed that you have been approved for Acount Creator.--RyRy5 (talk ♠ Review) 00:47, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, I didn't know the feature had been added yet, heard about it on IRC, and got it added. /me goes to work Steve Crossin (talk) (review) 00:49, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

User:Steve Crossin/Adoption/Templates

 Done. I see no assignment so this is just like the Copyright assignment I guess. I learned a few extra things but I pretty much know templates due to my userpage made up of pretty much templates. Also, are you going to mark on my adoption page "done" for the Templates and Copyright assignment?--RyRy5 (talk ♠ Review) 05:04, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

Reply

Sure, as you know, I like helping others. I just wanted to help a user but I don't intend to actually adopt the user. I just wanted to give him/her a few tips until an adopter shows up. Is that okay? Also, when you have the chance, please reply to the sectiion above.--RyRy5 (talk ♠ Review) 05:53, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

Its OK, just don't get ahead of yourself. If you are unsure on something, ask me, or point them to me. Regrading the above section, yes, technically, there is no assignment to do, however, if you could create a few example templates, that would help demonstrate what you learned.

Additionally, if you have a wikiproject that needs notices/newsletters delivered, I can do it. My bot is flagged, so has no edit delays, as in, it can run unattended. Steve Crossin (talk) (review) 05:58, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

Okay, but can I create any template such as userboxes? Also, I currently have nothing to deliver, but if I find the need to, I'll ask.--RyRy5 (talk ♠ Review) 14:51, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

Not just a userbox, create a few, try to do something complexish, then I'll tick it off. Steve Crossin (talk) (review) 03:11, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

Alright, maybe later, I'll have to be offline again. Cheers. -- RyRy5 (talk ♠ Review) 03:14, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

Re: Novels newsletter delivery

Yeah sure we'll use You in the future, as You are willing to deliver the newsletter. And it went well today... I'll give You a notice in the beginning of the month (1-10 day). Naturally please remember to check if new members are on the list before delivery. Thanks again. feydey (talk) 10:24, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

Sure, in that case, i will move the pages i made into my bot`s userspace, as i change my sandboxes quite often. If you could keep a list of people who join each month, it would help a lot. Regards, Steve Crossin (talk) (review) 10:34, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
I'll probably make a page to take note of the new arrivals. We'll see about this next month. Best, feydey (talk) 10:59, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

Re:Star

Thank you. I've never seen that kind of barnstar. Also, can you actually point out my changes in my contributions? -- RyRy5 (talk ♠ Review) 17:56, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

Okay, I guess.--RyRy5 (talk ♠ Review) 18:10, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

I believe you, just take a nice long nap. That just gave me an idea, I'll be back.--RyRy5 (talk ♠ Review) 18:20, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

This is my idea for a new motto.--RyRy5 (talk ♠ Review) 18:53, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

I thought that asking someone to review you is different than asking someone to !vote on something. I'm sorry, I didn't know. I'll stop. But what if you ask an adopter or admin coach? Is that canvassing?--RyRy5 (talk ♠ Review) 03:00, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

The user removed the content of the section, but after my revert, I think the IP rephrased the one I reverted. After the IP rephrased it, it was still vandalism as another user revertit it, so another user agreed with me.--RyRy5 (talk ♠ Review) 04:02, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

It's my favorite peice of music I could find. :) -- RyRy5 (talk ♠ Review) 07:30, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

Erm, not something I've done before, to be honest. Steve Crossin (talk) (review) 07:52, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

Well, just to be sure, I'll just add the link for now. I'll be offline soon. Cheers. BTW, I removed the template just in case also off your talk page--RyRy5 (talk ♠ Review) 07:56, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

Ok, I'll be going to bed soon (tired), so if I don't reply, it's because I'm snoozing. Steve Crossin (talk) (review) 07:59, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

WP:Lectures

are 11 May 2008 at 15:00 UTC, or something like that. Click the link in the header to be taken to the (link that holds) the mystery realms of IRC and Skype. Xavexgoem (talk) 14:59, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

Re: Bot?

The task is delivering spam to the "Invite list" at WP:Meetup/Dallas. If the BOTREQ (I think that's what he called it) group turns Diligent Terrier down, you'll be second on my ask-list. Basketball110 My story/Tell me yours 19:00, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

Well, I guess you could go ahead and begin by:
  • Inserting a post on all of the users' talk pages (listed at section "Meetup 1" here) with this. Remove them from the list when they are spammed.

Basketball110 My story/Tell me yours 19:10, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

Keep the striked out (Hi, Hello aren't Texan enough, and that is shown), and yes, substitute. Basketball110 My story/Tell me yours 19:14, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
Joy
Joy

Because he would like to thank you for deliving "spam" about a meetup, Basketball110 My story/Tell me yours has given you a kitten! Kittens promote Wikilove and hopefully this one has made your day better. Share the WikiLove and civility with everyone and keep up the excellent editing! Send kittens to others by adding {{subst:Joy message}} to their talk page with a friendly message.

No, nothing else... not now anyway. Thanks again! Basketball110 My story/Tell me yours 19:31, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the heads up

Thanks for telling me about this. --SharkfaceT/C 21:28, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

Regarding the MfD

Would you be willing to withdraw the MfD nomination for Award Center if we could come to an agreement on the sections to be axed (the ones you particularly disagree with)? WBOSITG's approach, while bold and unusually effective, isn't my preferred method of cleanup: I'd rather discuss and come to a general consensus before the axing is done. Anyway, as for the sections you mentioned.... I'm willing to ax the Recent Changes Patrol. When you mentioned the this whole section, I agree with you to a point: I believe that welcoming 1000 new users is beneficial, as it is an important outreach effort that introduces new Wikipedians to the complicated bureaucracy we have nowadays. My first in-depth Wikipedia efforts were due to somebody welcoming me (albeit, with a warning). This is already closed to new participants and will be deleted once I have heard back from those who signed up originally. This section is, for all intensive purposes, dead. As for the AFD challenge, while I don't agree to it personally, I'd rather not cut it because I did not sponsor it. I am simply the host of the Award Center; I do not wish to be its dictator (even a benevolent one). If you disagree with it, I suggest you talk to its sponsor (MFC). I look forward to your reply. --SharkfaceT/C 21:49, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

  • Update- At my behest, MFC closed the AFD challenge. --SharkfaceT/C 22:19, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

Okay, let's look. The sections I mentioned in the MFD, I have genuine issues with. All the sections I mentioned in the MFD have reasons I added them to the MFD, the sections such as improving articles, I'm fine with. I'll list the concerns.

  • Welcome 1000 users: Very poor idea. In theory, could be good, but in practice, not good at all. Think of the amount of time it takes to welcome one user. Multiply that by 1000. A while to complete, no? Then, think how long it takes to look at a new users contributions, check the diffs, then give them the proper welcome, eg, if their first edit was vandalism, eg "penis", we don't want to be saying, Thank you for your contributions, when they vandalised an article, do we? While not explicitly encouraged in the "challenge", I have no doubt that this has occurred.
  • Edit Count.: I think this one is rather obvious. Encourages quantity of edits, while the quality is something that is of more significance. I'll elaborate if necessary, but I think the reasons are quite clear.
  • Help Related. More about the "amount" of things. Adopt 5 users- absolutely terrible idea, that's my main issue in this MFD, but all others I have serious issues with. As seen in the MFD of RyRy's adoption program, there was a severe issue with people who were inexperienced, providing new users with poor info. I feel the Adopt section has serious flaws and issues, and has to go. 200 questions, same issue, there's no real need for this award at all. Altruism (ethics) is a very good thing.
  • Regarding your concerns... you make a highly compelling argument for the closing of Welcoming 1000 Users. I must say, I am impressed; I thought that my natural-born stubbornness (an innate trait, I'm afraid) would keep me from being swayed. Alas, I was wrong. That being said, I am willing to compromise. I would graciously close all of the sections you mentioned in exchange for a withdrawal of the MfD. Closure of the sections would entail me ensuring that there would be no new signups, and the sponsors and those participants would each be given notice (which would have me notifying over 50 Wikipedians). Only after everything is sorted out (awards for those close to completing, consolation prizes, thanks, etc.) will the sections be removed from the page. While I could just remove the sections now, diving into various pages of edit history to track down users (notifying of close, examining the work they have done, etc.) is a major pain that can result in silly mistakes. If those sections are to be closed, I wish to do it correctly; if analogy were to be used, I hope my methods are closer to the cleanup Western Europe after WWII under the Marshall Plan than the current day occupation of Iraq. I hope you find these conditions to be most accommodating. Many thanks --SharkfaceT/C 22:37, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

Someone suggested on the MFD maybe moving it to the Wikipedia space? What do you think? And if so, think of a title. Should probably be within WP:AWARD, in a subpage of some sort. Steve Crossin (talk) (review) 22:49, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

I possibly agree with the move. How about Wikipedia:Awards/Program? -- RyRy5 (talk ♠ Review) 22:51, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
This was already attempted and it failed miserably. The entire page was almost deleted. See here. --SharkfaceT/C 22:53, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
  • It certtainly didn't seem as it failed miserably; rather, I think that re-moving it to project space and trimming a lot would remove some of the Sharkface-ish elemants. From that point on, we could establish a concensus upon which should and shouldn't be there. I'm an Editorofthewiki[citation needed] 23:07, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

(edit conflict) On my own talk page

  • True, and this?, well, it's not about one user being in "control" of the page, really. The Wikipedia community generally have a good clue about things, and I think the removal of certain things that has been suggested on the MFD, are something the community would have removed too. But some of these ideas are perfectly fine, but others, well...Steve Crossin (talk) (review) 23:17, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
  • It most likely result in the entire page being deleted. As for the "Sharkface-ish" elements... I'm not sure what you're saying. Are you accusing me for having all those so-called undesirable sections (Recent Changes patrol nonwithstanding). The vast majority of my edits to the page have been for article improvement. --SharkfaceT/C 23:11, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
    • (double ec, Steve said it better) And if we establish a concensus to delete it later on, fine, if no, not. I'm simply referring to the fact that you have the ultimate say in some of the callenges. I'm not even accusing you of the undesirable sections, rather more or less allowing them to stay. If we move it to projectspace it no longer becomes "your" page and, while you can add most of the content, if the concensus is to reject something an editor would do so. I'm an Editorofthewiki[citation needed] 23:21, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
      • I will say this: I would not be pleased if it were moved to the projectspace and then deleted. --SharkfaceT/C 23:25, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
        • Nor would I. Though I surely doubt that wold happen again if we establish some type of order to the page. I'm an Editorofthewiki[citation needed] 23:26, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
  • Most true, entire deletion would be an issue of sorts, but having it in userspace, as aformentioned, means the Wikipedia community has more of a say in the Award Center, and which challenges should be "weeded out", ie, the ones that focus on the quantity of edits, not the quality of them. Steve Crossin (talk) (review) 23:32, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
    • I suggest both of you read over the AWC talk page. Given the chance (ie project space move), many would gladly delete the entire page simply because they do not believe in having a reward system for work done to the Wiki. While I respect this opinion, I'd rather not have the page be deleted or significantly modified to the point that it's unrecognizable from its current (and, yes, slightly flawed) form. A major sticking point for me is the Article development section. There are many, many Wikipedians who are opposed to even this and, if the page were projectspace, would MfD it in a heartbeat. --SharkfaceT/C 23:37, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

Mediation

Please note that the Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Prem_Rawat is about to close, so we can get started with the mediation. Look forward to your assistance. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 01:36, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

  • Righto. I'll see if I can get filled in by ArbCom of any implications of their decision, and see where to go from there. Steve Crossin (talk) (review) 01:44, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
No need, just been told. Steve Crossin (talk) (review) 01:46, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

Award Center MfD closed

Hi Steve,

I have closed the discussion, with not certification of keep or delete. The Transhumanist was correct in his citation of policy, all personal affiliations aside. I understand that this is still a contentious issue for you, and I encourage you to continue to talk it out in the appropriate places.

Happy editing to you! Keegantalk 05:59, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

Yes, I'm aware of that, changes need to be made. Perhaps a MFD wasn't the best venue. Very well, I will initiate a Request for Comment. I believe consensus will be the same, the sections that are an issue will be removed, and possibly moved to mainspace. I feel that closing this was premature, but, meh. I'll start the RFC now then. No hard feelings towards you. Steve Crossin (talk) (review) 06:02, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for your cordial response. As I said in the closure and at my response on WP:AN, this was strictly procedural bureaucracy and was not a judgment on the merits of support or opposition. RfC is a great idea. Keegantalk 06:07, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

User:RyRy5 and User:RyRy5/TopLinks

Please take a look at my user page. I suggest leaving the toplinks how it was becuase, well, you'll find out.--RyRy5 (talk ♠ Review) 01:01, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

AWC reference challenge

I've notified Sharkface of our changes. I told him I'd sign it after he did. I think you should do the same. (Unified front, and all that). The Transhumanist 04:21, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

AWC talk

I've answered your concerns at User talk:Sharkface217/Award Center.The Transhumanist 04:27, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

  1. ^ "Did Tibet Become an Independent Country after the Revolution of 1911?" Liu Muyan, Liu Limei, 1994 [1]
  2. ^ Chen P50
  3. ^ Chen Qingying, Tibetan History (China Intercontinental Press, 2003), 52.
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