Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/1876 Scotland v Wales football match/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Ian Rose via FACBot (talk) 13 February 2021 [1].

1876 Scotland v Wales football match[edit]

Nominator(s): Kosack (talk) 20:24, 1 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

First FAC nom on the first day of a new year! This article is about a football match played between Wales and Scotland in 1876. The match was the first fixture ever played by Wales and the first time Scotland had played against a team other than England. The result proved to be rather one-sided in favour of the more experienced Scots, but the match set the groundwork for, among other things, the start of the British Home Championship. This was taken to GA a few years ago, but I've spent sometime expanding and fine tuning and think it's in pretty good shape for a run at FAC now. As ever, I look forward to any comments. Kosack (talk) 20:24, 1 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Support from TRM[edit]

Well, I'm going to take a stab at this one, call me old-fashioned but I like the look of it and this soccer thing piques my interest glands. More soon. The Rambling Man (Stay alert! Control the virus! Save lives!!!!) 20:52, 1 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

  • Not keen in the repeat of 1876 in the opening sentence. I know these are notoriously difficult to start but if it's possible, we probably should avoid the repetition.
    I did wonder about this but couldn't think of a better way. What's your thoughts on removing the year from the date, as 1876 is already mentioned earlier in the sentence? I did consider that but wondered if it would be clear enough? Kosack (talk) 14:26, 2 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    It's a tough one. I would perhaps consider bringing the "first Welsh international" factoid to the opening sentence to make a logical sentence? The Rambling Man (Stay alert! Control the virus! Save lives!!!!) 11:41, 12 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    @The Rambling Man: I've reworded a bit. Kosack (talk) 15:13, 12 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "international fixture ... international fixture " can this be avoided as well?
    Reworded. Kosack (talk) 14:26, 2 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "their opponents inexperience" shouldn't that be "their opponent's inexperience"?
    Done. Kosack (talk) 14:26, 2 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Link "headed" in the lead to Header (association football).
    Done. Kosack (talk) 14:26, 2 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • James Lang has his article at Jimmy Lang, not James Lang (footballer).
    Done. Kosack (talk) 14:26, 2 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Perhaps infobox should say "around 17,000" for attendance per the article.
    Done. Kosack (talk) 14:26, 2 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Maybe worth noting The Oval is a cricket ground too.
    Done. Kosack (talk) 14:26, 2 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Was it rugby or more specifically rugby union?
    Judging by the wording of the source, I think union. Added. Kosack (talk) 14:26, 2 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Wrexham is an A.F.C.
    Done. Kosack (talk) 14:26, 2 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "advertisement" you previously used advert, but I prefer the longer version so I'd go back and adjust advert to advertisement.
    Done. Kosack (talk) 14:26, 2 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "that a Welsh team be formed from Welsh men" is the first "Welsh" necessary?
    Removed. Kosack (talk) 14:26, 2 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "told "The Field" that " should be italics and no quotes.
    Done. Kosack (talk) 14:26, 2 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "for the tie and " I've been told the use of "tie" in its various footballing contexts can be confusing, particularly for our US readers....
    Reworded. Kosack (talk) 14:26, 2 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "captain of Swansea" which Swansea?
    Added. Kosack (talk) 14:26, 2 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Spacing around the ellipses appears too long for me, just one non-breaking space normally before, or after if no text before the ellipsis.
    Done. Kosack (talk) 14:26, 2 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Wrexham is overlinked.
    Done. Kosack (talk) 14:26, 2 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • As is Wrexham A.F.C. But the quick use of Wrexham (the town) and Wrexham (the AFC) might be mildly confusing, so suggest some cunning reword.
    Reworded. Kosack (talk) 14:26, 2 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Very little discussion of Scotland in the "The challenge" section.
    By this point, Scotland were entering their seventh international fixture, so they were pretty well established at this point. Other than accepting an invitation to play, they didn't have much major preparation to do really. Kosack (talk) 14:26, 2 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • " from English club, Oswestry were" not Oswestry Town? and I would have a comma after the club name.
    The sources only state Oswestry, and the Town article doesn't give an indication of when the extra name was added. Period players of this time use Oswestry, such as William Davies (footballer, born 1855) which reasons that the club went on to add Town at a later date. Kosack (talk) 14:26, 2 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "of Oxford University was" bit easter egg this one, I wasn't expecting it to link to the football team, more the university itself.
    Done. Kosack (talk) 14:26, 2 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Link Formation (association football).
    Done. Kosack (talk) 14:26, 2 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "programme.[36][21]" preferably numerical order.
    I saw this about three times and still forgot to go back and change it! Done now. Kosack (talk) 14:26, 2 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Link kick off.
    Done. Kosack (talk) 14:26, 2 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "3:40pm" should use a non-breaking space before pm (or p.m.)
    Done. Kosack (talk) 14:26, 2 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • William Evans is overlinked.
    Done. Kosack (talk) 14:26, 2 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "goal bound shot" goal-bound.
    Done. Kosack (talk) 14:26, 2 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "side when,[34] around" feels like a really odd place for a citation...
    Moved. Kosack (talk) 14:26, 2 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Link cross.
    Done. Kosack (talk) 14:26, 2 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Link dribbling.
    Done. Kosack (talk) 14:26, 2 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "involved England and" England overlinked.
    Done. Kosack (talk) 14:26, 2 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • I would put "tournaments" into the pipe so it's not just linking the year easter eggy.
    Done. Kosack (talk) 14:26, 2 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Ref 12: G.A. -> G. A.
    Done. Kosack (talk) 14:26, 2 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

That's it for a first pass. The Rambling Man (Stay alert! Control the virus! Save lives!!!!) 11:47, 2 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@The Rambling Man: Thanks for the review. I've addressed most of the points above and added comments to a couple, in particularly the first sentence issue. Let me know what you think. Kosack (talk) 14:26, 2 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Cool, good luck, looks like you're doing fine. The Rambling Man (Stay alert! Control the virus! Save lives!!!!) 08:34, 2 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Image review[edit]

Images are appropriately licensed, but I would suggest slightly scaling up the size of the match report. Nikkimaria (talk) 23:09, 1 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I've enlarged the image somewhat, let me know if it's enough. Kosack (talk) 14:30, 2 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Comments Support from WA8MTWAYC[edit]

This is a very good and interesting article. Some comments from my side.

  • Lead: the last sentence of the first para and the first sentence of the second paragraph. I don't really like the fact that the successive sentences start with "The match was".
  • "players, or players" a bit repetitive
  • Ref 4 displays "page not found"
  • Maybe link "ad hoc"
  • "other than England.[18][2]" best to reorder the refs
  • Wrexham (the town) is not linked at the first time in the body of the text.
  • "Although Kenrick ... Bell's Life." If I get this right, people in South Wales tend to be more Welsh-speaking (and less English-speaking) than persons from North Wales?
    More to do with the fact that those publications were not widely circulated in Wales. I've expanded slightly to hopefully make that clearer. Kosack (talk) 07:29, 24 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "C. C. Chambers, captain of Swansea RFC, wrote" isn't it better to drop the specific Captain (association football) wikilink, as Chambers was a rugby player?
  • The towns of Oswestry and Shrewsbury could do with a wikilink.
  • John Hawley Edwards: he wasn't Welsh-born or -bred, and played for Shrewsbury- and London-based clubs during his career. Did he live in Wales for at least three years? From his article it's clear that he was connected to the establishment of the Football Association of Wales. This is not something that needs amending at all but I'm interested and maybe you could give me some more information.
    That is a strange one as I can't find much record of him actually being resident in Wales. During this early period, the rules seemed loose to say the least, so it's likely he was given a free pass for being in with the FAW. Kosack (talk) 07:29, 24 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • North Wales Chronicle can be linked in the article. WA8MTWAYC (talk) 23:15, 22 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    @WA8MTWAYC: Thanks very much for taking a look, I've addressed all of the points babe and left comments on two more for clarification. Let me know what you think, cheers. Kosack (talk) 07:29, 24 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for the comments. Great work, I support this nom. WA8MTWAYC (talk) 09:21, 24 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Support from Gog the Mild[edit]

Recusing to review.

  • "The first was a rebound". 'off a goalpost' may be helpful for the uninitiated.
  • "recognised as the joint oldest international football teams in history". "in history" is redundant.
    I see what you mean because it's already referred to as the first international fixture, but I feel like emphasising that point is important to the reader. Kosack (talk) 08:54, 28 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "By the time their fixture against Wales was organised in 1876, Scotland and England had played each other" As "their" refers to Scotland, can I suggest 'By the time their fixture against Wales was organised in 1876, Scotland had played England ..."
  • "had also been founded in 1873". Why use "also".
  • Why do you describe The Field as a newspaper, not a magazine? And would it be possible to give a brief in line description of what type of publication it was?
  • "that the international match should be association football and the field of players to be drawn from all of Wales". Suggestion: 'that the international match should be association football and the players be drawn from all of Wales'.
  • "Clay-Thomas' proposed rugby match between residents in London also went ahead on 15 March." Delete "also".
  • "The FAW sent out invitations to officials in England, Scotland and Ireland." Inviting them to what?
  • "The Football Association of Wales (FAW) was formed at the Wynnstay Arms in Wrexham" Is it known when?
  • "As such the Welsh side travelled to Scotland". I'm not sure about "As such"; how about 'Accordingly'.
  • "Although Kenrick corresponded with several Welsh clubs and the nation's universities to raise a team, he was criticised for allegedly overlooking players from the South having chosen to publish most of his notices in English sports journals such as The Field and Bell's Life which were not widely circulated in Wales." This is a long sentence with a lot packed in. Consider splitting it.
  • "RFC". From the MoS "When an abbreviation will be used in an article, first introduce it using the full expression".
  • "wrote a letter to the Western Mail in which". Optional: 'wrote a letter to the Western Mail newspaper in which'.
  • "he did welcome players of sufficient ability to try out for the team". Given the context I assume this is a reference to South Wales players?
    Basically yes. It was his way of saying come and try if you think you're good enough I think. Kosack (talk) 08:54, 28 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "between players from the town's own football club and Druids" Shouldn't it be 'the Druids'?
    As it's the name of the club, I don't believe so. In the same way for example we wouldn't write the Queen's Park Rangers or similar. Kosack (talk) 08:54, 28 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • You jump from the first to the csecond trial matches. What about the second?
    Not much happened in the second really. I listed the first and last examples for timeframe and the third match had the issue of players pulling out. There wasn't anything particularly notable in the second. Kosack (talk) 08:54, 28 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Personally I think that it would flow better if you inserted something like 'A second trial match took place uneventfully.' and 'A fourth trial match took place on XX YYY.' and deleted "Four trial games were held in total", but I don't insist.
I've expanded slightly to add a mention of the second and fourth fixtures. Kosack (talk) 15:43, 29 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "but was disrupted when six of the eleven players who were scheduled to play failed to turn up." From which team?
  • "taking their place". "place" → 'places'.
  • "further dates were postponed". 1. Suggest "dates" → 'matches'. 2. "postponed": do you mean cancelled? What would be the point of "postponing" further trials until after the match being trialled for?
  • "one from English club, Oswestry". Either delete the comma or insert 'an' before "English".
  • Section titles: From the MoS "Do not use A, An, or The as the first word (Economy of the Second Empire, not The economy of the Second Empire), unless it is an inseparable part of a name (The Hague)".
  • In "The Challenge" section there seems to be more emphasis on the preparation, selection and the players in the Welsh team than in the Scottish.
    As I mentioned to TRM above, the Welsh team was starting from scratch here so had to found an association, hold trial matches and select a team from players who barely played organised football. By this point Scotland already had this in place and more, so apart from accepting the invitation and picking the squad (most of which remained from their previous match), they didn't have to do a lot really. Kosack (talk) 08:54, 28 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Fair point. If you can source it, it may be worth adding a sentence to the article summarising what you have just told me above.
I've actually come across a source that states there were two "trial" matches in Scotland for uncapped players which I've added in. Other than that, the founding of the SFA and establishment of club football in Scotland is mentioned in the background section, so would probably be repeating itself somewhat. Kosack (talk) 15:43, 29 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

More to follow. Gog the Mild (talk) 21:16, 27 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Gog the Mild: Thanks for taking a look. I've actioned most of the points above and left a few explanatory comments on others, cheers. Kosack (talk) 08:54, 28 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "As Wales were an unknown team, the match drew a large crowd". That seems an odd reason for a large crowd. Is it solidly supported by the source?
    I believe so, the newspaper in question has a whole paragraph on the interest that surrounded the Welsh selection. There is also a direct reference to the new team boosting the crowd, "the novelty of witnessing a Welsh team for the first time in Scottish soil, combined with beautiful weather, caused spectators to turn out in great numbers". Kosack (talk) 15:13, 28 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Spectators were charged half-a-crown". Perhaps some idea of what this means in today's money in parentheses?
Nice addition. Can a suggest a footnote along the lines of 'A working man of the time typically earned around £X in a week.'?
Looking at the comparison, the cost doesn't seem particularly extortionate for the average worker at the time, so I'm unsure of how relevant it would be. Kosack (talk) 15:47, 29 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Page 106 of this suggests that a skilled worker might earn 30/- a week.
  • Link verge to Road verge.
  • No images of the match programme around that could be used?
    There is an image out there, but I'm unsure if its usage and it's of poor quality and is quite difficult to make out the actual writing as a result. Kosack (talk) 15:13, 28 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Summary". Possibly 'Match summary'?
  • "Wales were forced to defend solidly". Do you mean 'continuously'?
    Not really, I've reworded to resolutely to hopefully be clearer. Kosack (talk) 19:48, 28 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "their forwards passing game". Add the apostrophe.
  • "before David Thomson gathered the rebound". If you mean that it had rebounded off a goalpost it would be helpful to say so.
    Not in this case. The rebound in question here was a follow up attempt by another Scot. Kosack (talk) 19:48, 28 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Then it may be better to say that rather than use "rebound".
Reworded. Kosack (talk) 15:47, 29 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "On the 40th minute, Lang's centre was caught". What does this mean? I thought that a "centre" was a position.
    I can see how this could be confusing, reworded. Kosack (talk) 19:48, 28 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "before shooting over". Perhaps add just what the shot went over?
  • "the openness of the Welsh side when, around eight minutes". Suggest "when" → 'and'.
  • "the ball was crossed into Lang". "into" seems an odd word. Link Cross (association football).
  • "in resulting match reports". Delete "resulting".
  • "becoming the first international match". "becoming" → 'which was'.
  • "Scotland themselves had only played". Delete "themselves". (Who else would they be?)
  • " which involved England and Ireland" → ' which also involved England and Ireland'.

Great work. Very enjoyable. Gog the Mild (talk) 12:39, 28 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I am clearly going to be supporting this, but I have added a few suggestions above for your consideration. Gog the Mild (talk) 10:45, 29 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@Gog the Mild: Thanks again. I've enacted three of the four comments but I'm a little unsure of the average worker one. Let me know what you think, cheers. Kosack (talk) 15:47, 29 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Supporting. Good work. I have left a note above giving a source which indicates that half a crown was about a half day's income for a skilled tradesman, but will leave it to you as to whether you use it. Gog the Mild (talk) 16:06, 29 January 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Source review – Pass[edit]

Will do soon. Aza24 (talk) 08:31, 2 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Formatting
  • The massive newspaper in the postmatch section crams the references together on my screen; using {{clear}} at the bottom of the notes section would do the trick, though it leaves a white space. Personally I prefer the white space to the crammed refs, but I don't really know...
  • Paul Mitchell should be formatted last name first, like your other refs
  • You include a publishing location for all of the books except Gibbons
Reliabillity
  • Not sure how ref 40 is reliable; seems to be a self-published source
    historicalkits.co.uk is the web presence of Dave Moor who is an expert on football kits and their history. He has several published works on the subject, such as this and this. It has been used in a number of football FACs in the past and is generally considered a very reliable source. Kosack (talk) 19:20, 2 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    Thanks for the clarification here, I agree with your rationale and will keep this in mind for any future source reviews I conduct. Best - Aza24 (talk) 20:29, 2 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • I have no doubts on the reliabillity of other sources; references are trusted news sources or statistical web information. Aza24 (talk) 20:29, 2 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Verifiability
  • Have spot checked this nominator before; have no doubts on the verifiability here. Aza24 (talk) 08:45, 2 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    @Aza24: Thanks for the review, I've amended all of the points above and left a comment on the reliability of the Moor reference. Kosack (talk) 19:20, 2 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    Looking great. Pass for source review Aza24 (talk) 20:29, 2 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Heartfox[edit]

  • The football kit templates allow for alt text; do add. Heartfox (talk) 00:53, 8 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • I think abbreviation templates should be used on the first instances of "GK", "FB", "HB", and "FW" to explain these terms for someone who knows nothing about football, such as myself. Heartfox (talk) 00:53, 8 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    @Heartfox: Thanks for the review, I've added both of those in. Kosack (talk) 15:07, 8 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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