Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/1940 Mandatory Palestine v Lebanon football match/archive2

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Laser brain via FACBot (talk) 7 October 2020 [1].

1940 Mandatory Palestine v Lebanon football match[edit]

Nominator(s): Nehme1499 (talk) 17:35, 16 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Following a substantial peer review, and having already brought the article to GA, I'm looking to nominate this page to FA. The article is about an association football friendly match in 1940 between the Lebanon national team, and the Mandatory Palestine national team (the precursor to today's Israel national team). With this year marking the 80th anniversary of the match, I thought it was a good idea to push for a FA nomination. I'm open to any comments and improvements, so just let me know if anything needs to be changed! Nehme1499 (talk) 17:35, 16 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Comments Support from Kosack[edit]

  • The lead is a little short, perhaps a third paragraph on the events after the game. Given the rather unique situation of both sides, it may be worth mentioning the changes that occurred after the game and when they played next.
    • Would you also include the analysis of the game itself (rather one sided, X player was good, Y and Z players were bad, etc.), or just everything "post-1940" (They arranged another friendly, Lebanon played these games after 1940, Mandatory Palestine became Israel and played these other games)? Nehme1499 (talk) 13:29, 19 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
      • I'd just add the fact that Lebanon didn't play again until 1958 and also Palestine's change to Israel and their first match. Might be worth mentioning the only player from the game who won another cap after this also. Kosack (talk) 06:59, 6 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Mention football somewhere in the first sentence of the background section. "tours by football clubs" perhaps?
  • Clubs is a little repetitive with two uses in the first and second sentence.
  • "chairman Jamil Sawaya visited family in Jerusalem and Jaffa.[2] An agreement was signed for the Lebanese team to visit Tel Aviv for a friendly match against Mandatory Palestine", I'm not really getting the connection here and feel like something's missing. How did he go from visiting family to arranging a friendly between two nations?
    • I think the idea is that, since Sawaya, the Lebanon FA chairman, was visiting Palestine, he thought to arrange a friendly between his country and Palestine since he was already there. The source used doesn't add anything more context than what is already present in the article. Nehme1499 (talk) 13:29, 19 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
      • If the source specifically states the friendly was arranged during his visit, I'd probably started the second sentence with "During his visit, he helped arrange..." or something similar, just to link the sentences more. Kosack (talk) 07:02, 6 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
        • Just noticed that the ref included (No. 2) actually mentions a friendship and meetings with the president of the Israel Football Association (or the corresponding Palestine version at the time I'm assuming?). This would provide much more context as to how the match came about. Kosack (talk) 07:20, 6 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
          • Ah, Google Translate ate up most of that part. I had to translate sentence by sentence to see that (instead of the whole paragraph at once). I've included the details. Nehme1499 (talk) 16:02, 7 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Why did the team have to arrive individually?
    • Again, the sources don't add any context. I'm guessing for financial reasons? Nehme1499 (talk) 13:29, 19 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "was called as the compiler of the team", not sure this works. Called doesn't really work I feel and "compiler" is an odd term to use as well.
    • The idea is that Baar was the person calling up the players, while Weiss was the guy actually coaching during the match. I don't know how to replace the word "compiler" (it's the word @SuperJew used in the peer review). Nehme1499 (talk) 13:29, 19 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
      • Um yeah, I wasn't 100% sure of the translation - that was a little literal (for the word מרכיב). I'd say you can paraphrase it and say Baar put the team together or that Baar selected the squad. --SuperJew (talk) 17:18, 19 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "No official coach was called up", I'm not sure you really "call up" a coach. Appointed, perhaps?
  • Tel Aviv and Maccabiah Stadium both over linked in the match section.
  • What unofficial games had Lebanon previously played? Any worth noting here?
    • Lebanon has played quite a few friendlies against some European clubs (from Romania and Austria), as well as against a Damascus XI and against the France Military team. How would you include this information? Nehme1499 (talk) 13:29, 19 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
      • A brief mention would be worth including, just mentioning the major matches and perhaps note that they were not ratified by FIFA. Kosack (talk) 07:09, 6 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • John Blackwell is red linked, is he likely to be notable enough for an article? There's also some inconsistency with the linking, he's linked in the lead but not the infobox, he's linked in the match details but not the main text.
    • Theoretically he would be notable (as he has refereed in an official FIFA-sanctioned football game), however as of now all I could write about him is "John Blackwell was a English football referee. He refereed in the 1940 friendly game between Mandatory Palestine and Lebanon". Nehme1499 (talk) 13:29, 19 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • The first goal is stated as being in the first minute, but the RSSSF has the second minute. Does the offline ref support the first minute?
  • Avraham Schneiderovich is used in the text, but Avraham Schneiderovitz is listed in the match details?
  • I'm not sure we need the club sides of Meitner and Schneiderovich, especially as they are the only ones mentioned in this way.
  • "they failed to score against goalkeeper Benjamin Mizrahi", is this just a generalisation or did Mizrahi make saves?
  • Link captain to Captain (sports).
  • Baar is over linked in the second half.
  • I would avoid using red links like Zalman "Dzampa" Friedmann and Zvi "Doctor" Erlich. If these were to be created, they wouldn't be done in that manner with the first name and nickname included, so the red links would remain anyway.
  • Quite a few repeat links in the Post-match section, Mizrahi, Kaspi, Baar, Cordahi, Jaroudi etc.
  • The RSSSF external link is already used frequently as a red so there's no need to include it there either.

This is what I picked out on an initial run through. Something to get you started. Kosack (talk) 12:16, 19 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Kosack: Thanks for your comments. I've amended some of the issues you pointed out (and commented on the rest). Nehme1499 (talk) 13:29, 19 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

A few more minor points

  • "located on the banks of the Yarkon River estuary", might be worth adding "in Tel Aviv" at the end here.
  • "with their own football boots", I wouldn't think there was anything unusual about a player arriving with his own football boots, especially in the 1940s, unless I'm missing some context behind this?
  • "coach at the time, was spending time", the double use of time is a little repetitive here.
  • The Post-match section has a lot of repetition of first names. Generally, first names are not needed after the first mention. Kosack (talk) 09:19, 6 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@Kosack: Should have taken care of everything. Nehme1499 (talk) 16:07, 7 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Last points

  • "Mandatory Palestine scored in the first minute of the game", the rest of the article has the goal being scored in the second minute.
  • "Shalom Shalomzon was the only player of the game to make an appearance for Israel", I realise that Lebanon didn't play another game for 13 years, so it's kind of obvious that none of their players would have won another cup, but I would change the sentence to something like "make another international appearance, playing for Israel..." Just to emphasise the point of him being the only one in the entire game to do so.
  • Link United States to their national side.

A few more minor points from the additions made. I think this is probably about it for me then. Kosack (talk) 07:55, 10 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Kosack and Nehme1499: Went ahead and fixed those points up (mostly because I'm bored in quarantine). --SuperJew (talk) 08:11, 10 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I'd hope for a user more versed in the nitty gritty of copyediting to go over this as well but, in terms of content and structure, I'm happy to support this. Kosack (talk) 11:35, 10 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@SuperJew and Kosack: Thanks for taking care of those points! Note that Camille Cordahi may have played in the 1950s for Lebanon (I'm still investigating); he played until the mid 1960s aged 40+, so it's not improbable that he may have played in 1953 (aged 34-ish). I've slightly amended the sentence. Nehme1499 (talk) 13:52, 10 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Comments Support from Govvy[edit]

It's a good article at GA and feel it is a good point to get too, however I feel there are far to many red-links for FA. That's a major red-flag in my opinion towards FA. Govvy (talk) 21:51, 26 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Govvy: If I were to create the 14 pages of Palestinian players who took part in the game, would you say that the article would be in a good position for FA? Nehme1499 (talk) 22:02, 26 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Maybe there needs to be delinking. Govvy (talk) 22:11, 26 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@Govvy: All those players (bar one on the bench) satisfy WP:NFOOTY, so they are eligible for an article (also the referee, who officiated a FIFA match, satisfies NFOOTY). Nehme1499 (talk) 22:23, 26 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Although it is a lot of work I suggest it would be wise to sort that out in order to support the promotion of this to FA in my opinion as an FA article shouldn't have vast amount of red-links. Govvy (talk) 22:27, 26 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@Govvy: Out of interest, which of the four Featured article criteria do you feel the article fails due to those red links? Harrias talk 09:06, 27 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@Harrias: Well, I've only ever helped get History of Tottenham Hotspur F.C. but to your question, 1-b, a red-link to me means we don't have that information. And an FA article should be comprehensive which in my view should have all the information. I would assume that also in-view will refer to not just the article in question, but also have content covered by the linked in articles. So yes, red-links can be viewed under 1-b. And as you can see, there are rather a lot of them at present. Govvy (talk) 09:18, 27 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Harrias, also, do you think it's appropriate to have a red-link in the lead for an article to be displayed on the front page of wikipedia? Govvy (talk) 09:22, 27 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, per MOS:REDLINK: "red links have been found to be a driving force that encourage contributions". I disagree on your interpretation of 1b, but that's part of the joy of collaborative projects such as Wikipedia! Harrias talk 09:47, 27 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
This is where we disagree, red-links are good for encouraging to create articles, yes, however for the top articles, FA ones. I feel it's bad form for an FA to have a mass quantity of red-links, I see todays article has two red-links, I don't consider that too bad. But I don't think it should be encouraged, it should be limited down and the opening paragraphs should defiantly not have any. That's my two cents! Govvy (talk) 10:03, 27 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@Govvy: I should have taken care of the red links (there are only four remaining). Thoughts? Nehme1499 (talk) 18:21, 27 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

It's looks much better, I had another read through.

  • No official coach was appointed as Egon Pollak, Mandatory Palestine's coach at the time, was spending time in Australia. This sentence doesn't seem to read quite right.
  • In the summary Indeed, in the 60th minute Kaspi scored his second goal of the game. Do you need the word indeed there?
    • Indeed is to link to the previous sentence that notes the passage of attacking momentum to Palestine. Nehme1499 (talk) 14:28, 28 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • In the post-match summary "[t]he goals that did get past him would have beaten any custodian" Does the T, need to be in brackets? I don't see that in the source provided.
    • I think the idea is that the source uses a capital "T", whereas the sentence structure in the article requires a lowercase "t". This was changed during the copyedit (see dif). Nehme1499 (talk) 14:28, 28 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Regards Govvy (talk) 11:47, 28 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Govvy: I've also added a couple of sentences regarding the wind during the match, and Mizrahi's saves in the first half. Nehme1499 (talk) 14:28, 28 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@Nehme1499: It's looking and reading a lot better, my only qualm is the "indeed" and then you have it written again a sentence later. Other than that, I think the article is on the right track. Govvy (talk) 14:41, 28 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
@Govvy: I've removed the two "Indeed"s. Nehme1499 (talk) 14:46, 28 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • I've looked through the article again, feels fine with me now. Happy to promote to FA. I give seniority to Kosack here know. Govvy (talk) 11:15, 5 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Comments Support from Kaiser matias[edit]

I'll add a few comments. Apologies if they've been covered before:

  • "...the latter's first-ever official international match, and the former's last..." Curious why you went in this order ("latter" then "former"). I feel it would be more logical to go the opposite, but that's just my opinion, and not something I'll hold against the article. I also see that later on it notes Lebanon only (if I understand correctly) played clubs before, which I understand wouldn't be international matches anyways.
    • I saw it more as: first game first, last game last (rather than former first, latter last). I'm fine either way. And yes, the games vs clubs were unofficial games. Nehme1499 (talk) 23:53, 14 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "...first-ever official international match..." I feel the "-ever" is redundant; just saying "first official international match" is sufficient.
  • "...Lebanese forward Camille Cordahi scored to become Lebanon's first official international goalscorer." Again, I feel the "official" is a redundant word. It's clear already this is Lebanon's first official match, so no need to repeat it. It comes up again later in the article, too.
    • True, but by removing "official" one might think that Lebanon hadn't scored in their unofficial games prior to 1940. Nehme1499 (talk) 23:53, 14 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • " Shalom Shalomzon was the only Mandatory Palestine player of the game..." Again, I find the "of the game" part to not be necessary; the context of the article suggests Shalomzon was in the game.
  • " Sawaya had friendly relations with several presidents of Palestinian football clubs, especially with the president of the Palestine Football Association." You don't happen to have the name of the PFA president? It would be good to have it here if so.
    • Unfortunately I don't. The Israel Football Association (successor to the PFA) only note the presidents from 1950 onwards (source). Nehme1499 (talk) 23:53, 14 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "They were told that each player had to go to the locker room at the stadium on their own. The players did not train for the game and, in the small dressing room, only 14 received the light-blue-and-white kit." Two things here: am I correct in understanding that the players had to go "on their own" meant there wasn't a team bus or something? And it says "only 14", but out of how many?
    • A source said 18 players were called up. Unfortunately, I can't find it anymore (probably it's one of the Hebrew newspaper scans, so it's impossible for me to find it). I'll remove the "only". As for the rest: yes, "on their own" would imply not going together in some sort of bus. Nehme1499 (talk) 23:53, 14 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Arthur Baar, an Austrian football coach, was in charge of selecting the team, sending out the call-ups to the players. Baar became the de facto coach as Egon Pollak, Mandatory Palestine's coach at that point, was spending time in Australia." I would move the mention of Mandatory Palestine up, as it is not clear at first who Baar is coaching. Something like "Arthur Baar, an Austrian football coach, was in charge of selecting the Mandatory Palestine team, sending out the call-ups to the players. Baar became the de facto coach as Egon Pollak, the team's coach at that point, was spending time in Australia."
  • The date of the match (27 April 1940) is repeated twice within three paragraphs. I see the point of doing so, but feel it is a little repetitive. As it was noted in the background section, I'd think you could remove the mention in the match section without hurting the flow, updating the wording of the following sentence: "The match was Lebanon's first official game..."
  • "The match was played in Tel Aviv at the Maccabiah Stadium, which was decorated with the flags of both nations; around 10,000 spectators came to watch, many of whom were British." Again the stadium had been mentioned previously, so doesn't need to be said again. To simplify I'd say something like: "The stadium was decorated with flags of both nations, and around 10,000 spectators came to watch, many of whom were British."
  • "In the first half, Mandatory Palestine played against the wind." Does it mention the strength of the wind at all? Seems that if it was noted there would be some idea of how important that detail is.
    • I don't think so (Hebrew book/newspaper scan, so I needed @SuperJew and Eranrabl's help). The idea is that, despite playing against the wind, Mandatory Palestine played better in the first half; same for Lebanon, they played better in the second half even though they played against the wind. Nehme1499 (talk) 23:53, 14 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
      • To support Nehme1499's point, the source doesn't mention the strength of the wind, only it's direction. As I wrote on my talk page: Regarding the wind, Haaretz says that in the first half Eretz Israel played against the wind (נבחרת ארץ ישראל משחקת בתחלה נגד הרוח), and in the second half with the wind but that despite that there felt there was a recuperation by Lebanon (עתה משחקת נבחרת ארץ-ישראל עם הרוח, ובכל זאת מורגשת התאוששות אצל הלבנונים). --SuperJew (talk) 04:01, 15 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Mizrahi was especially praised for his two saves in the 18th and 23rd minute." Who did the praising here?
    • Eranrabl said: "The article also states that the two stops made on the 18th and 23rd minutes were "Hard shots" and that the crowd cheered those stops". I changed it to "...was especially cheered by the crowd for his two saves..." Nehme1499 (talk) 23:53, 14 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Mandatory Palestine regained control of the game later in the first half and, in the 31st minute, Gaul Machlis scored Mandatory Palestine's third goal." These commas seem unnecessary; I'd just delete them and let the sentence flow like that.
  • "The match was Lebanon's first official international, and their first official defeat. Mandatory Palestine's win was their first (and only) in an official match before they became the Israel national team after 1948." Like noted above, this repeats "official" a lot. I'd try and simplify it: "The match was Lebanon's first international, and their first defeat. Mandatory Palestine's win was their first, and only, in a match before they became the Israel national team after 1948."
  • "With his two goals, captain Werner Kaspi became the first player of the Israel national team (Mandatory Palestine's successor) to score a brace." It notes later that Kaspi never played for Israel, so is is accurate to say he was the first on the Israel national team to do this?
    • As FIFA recognizes a succession between M. Palestine and Israel, all of MP's records stand for Israel as well (as is the case with, for e.g., Macedonia and North Macedonia, or West Germany and Germany). Therefore, Kaspi scoring a brace statistically counts for Israel as well. Nehme1499 (talk) 23:53, 14 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • There is mention of a planned rematch in 1941, but it never happened. Do you have any idea why it was cancelled?
  • "Regarding Palestine's 12 players involved, the match was the only cap for eight..." MOS:NUMNOTES says that you should be consistent with the numbers, either spelled out or in numerals, but not a mix. While either are good here, I'd lean towards numerals myself.
    • I did not know that. I was following the "9 and below" rule. Thanks for pointing that out. Nehme1499 (talk) 23:53, 14 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

That's all from me. I will note that I'm coming from this as a Canadian with a more casual understanding of the sport (so not much on the specific jargon). Kaiser matias (talk) 22:37, 14 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Kaiser matias: I should be done. Let me know if there is more. Nehme1499 (talk) 23:53, 14 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Everything I saw has been addressed, and I'm happy with the explanations above. Happy to support, well done. Kaiser matias (talk) 17:29, 16 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Coord note[edit]

I've added this to the image and source reviews requests list for same. --Ealdgyth (talk) 15:50, 22 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Image review - Pass[edit]

  • File:Mandatory Palestine v Lebanon, The Palestine Post.png This is incorrectly licensed, as it is not a photograph. Non-bylined newspaper articles are generally considered collective works because the newspaper's editors and staff are known, so copyright would expire 70 years after the death of the last writer (unlikely for this). (Per Israeli law: "Copyright in a joint work subsists during the life of its longest surviving joint author and for 70 years after his death." Commons:Commons:Copyright rules by territory/Israel)
  • File:PAL-LBN 1940-04-27.svg needs a source for the info presented in the image (eg the players' positions) in the image description
  • Other images look OK (t · c) buidhe 17:20, 22 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    • I've removed the first image, and added a source to the line-up. Nehme1499 (talk) 17:46, 22 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    • Would a crop of the image, with just the text "ASSOCIATION FOOTBALL, LEBANON OUTCLASSED BY PALESTINE SELECTED" work under PD-text? Nehme1499 (talk) 17:48, 22 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
      • Yes, that would be fine. (t · c) buidhe 17:53, 22 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
        • I've cropped the first image. However, I opted to put a 1935 image of the stadium as the infobox image. Is that ok? Nehme1499 (talk) 18:01, 22 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • The infobox image (File:אצטדיון המכביה בתל אביב 1935 - iדר דוד עופרi btm233 (colour).jpeg) needs a source that it was taken in 1935. (if it was created 1946 or later, it would not be public domain) (t · c) buidhe 20:25, 1 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    • @Buidhe: I've added the source; the image caption says "1935". Nehme1499 (talk) 20:29, 1 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
      • If the original photo is black and white, the black and white version should be used rather than a colorized one. There is no guarantee that amateur recolorization gets the colors right (t · c) buidhe 21:43, 1 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
        • @Buidhe: "Should" in an artistic or legal sense? Nehme1499 (talk) 22:29, 1 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
          • Technically speaking WP:OR does not cover images, but amateur colorization is just that—making stuff up. There's no way to know if the colors in real life actually were as you portray them. Wikipedia's best articles should not use such images (t · c) buidhe 22:33, 1 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
            • @Buidhe: I don't think that colouring the grass green, the sky blue, the trees green, and the running track brownish/red is OR. But still, if you feel this way I've changed it to the b/w version. Nehme1499 (talk) 22:53, 1 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
              • Well, that's a good question: how do you know that, when this photograph was taken, the grass was green, rather than yellow or brown (as it is often in the summer where I live—Tel Aviv has the same dry summer climate)? (t · c) buidhe 06:34, 3 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
              • @Buidhe: All good? Nehme1499 (talk) 02:57, 3 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Just to clarify, I oppose this FAC as long as it uses a colorized image. Such manipulated images are not encyclopedic [2] (t · c) buidhe 22:37, 1 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    • This issue has now been addressed so my oppose vote is no longer valid. (t · c) buidhe 06:34, 3 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Source review - Pass[edit]

Biblio

  • Look like there's a missing publisher for Shohat (because Hod HaSharon is the city of publication, right?), it also needs an ISBN – or if that's not available, an OCLC (world cat may help here)
    • The publisher is Shohat himself. I've added the OCLC. Nehme1499 (talk) 19:21, 1 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Also if you're including location for Shohat you should include it for Khalidi as well.

Refs

  • ref 1 needs an "|language=Hebrew"
  • I'm unsure what "مؤسسة نوفل للتوزيع" refers to, if its the publisher it should have an english title in place of or in addition to it
  • ref 11 is formatted differently than the others (the url links both titles?)
  • refs 10, 13, 16 and 17 need language paremeters
  • Everything else looks good, reliability is fine
Spotchecks
  • 7 and 8 (a and b) are good
  • 10: a, b, c (I'm assuming Jaroudi is just spelled with a Y here), e, f are good
    • Yes Jaroudi = Yaroudi. In Arabic it's spelled with a soft G (like just, or judgement), so I don't know why the paper uses "Y". Nehme1499 (talk) 19:28, 1 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • 10: d I find somewhat questionable. I recognize that the essecense of the statement is true but the paper doesn't use words like "efficiently" (although correct me if I'm wrong), maybe tweak to "They praised the Mandatory Palestine team's performance, but noted that the two full..."
    • It says sentences such as "rather one-sided", "scarcely a thrill", "far superior", "soccer of a much higher grade", "Palestine almost entirely monopolised the game". Nehme1499 (talk) 19:27, 1 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • 15 and 18 are good – I could only check English language sources. Aza24 (talk) 18:19, 1 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    • @Aza24: I've taken care of some of your concerns, and commented on the rest. Nehme1499 (talk) 19:27, 1 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
      • Your examples for 10d make sense, apologies for missing those lines before. Thanks for the changes, everything looks great. Pass for source review. Aza24 (talk) 19:36, 1 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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