Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/A Contract with God/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Graham Colm 07:30, 17 May 2014 [1].


A Contract with God[edit]

Nominator(s): Curly Turkey (gobble) 12:38, 30 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Will Eisner's first book-length comic book wasn't the first to use the term "graphic novel", but it has been credited with popularizing the term. The book is a cycle of four stories set mostly in a tenement building in New York City in the 1930s, and was an early English-level attempt to raise the maturity and art levels of the content of the medium. A Contract with God is no Maus, but was an important stepping stone in the comics medium's history in the Anglosphere. Curly Turkey (gobble) 12:38, 30 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Image review

  • Generally not necessary to include (pictured) in captions, where it's clear what is being pictured
  • If File:Contract_w_God_excerpt_page_18.jpg and File:A_Contract_With_God_page_116.png have the same purpose of use, it's difficult to justify having both. Nikkimaria (talk) 20:54, 4 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Removed "(pictured)" and File:Contract_w_God_excerpt_page_18.jpg. Curly Turkey (gobble) 21:06, 4 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose: - images need more specificity...Modernist (talk) 00:04, 5 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • The image depicting tenements in the Bronx - is not the Bronx but Manhattan...Modernist (talk) 22:12, 4 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
    • Would it be acceptable if "in the Bronx" were dropped from the caption (or changes, say, to "New York City")? Or are you aware of a free image in the Bronx? Curly Turkey (gobble) 01:07, 5 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • - The image depicting the Catskills is the Catskills but the 'Jewish Alps' referred to in the article tends to refer to Sullivan County, New York - while the image used seems to be a view from Greene County, New York
    • Dropped the image. Are you aware of a more appropriate one to use? Curly Turkey (gobble) 01:07, 5 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Done, added an image in Sullivan County and an image of tenements in the Bronx...Modernist (talk) 13:01, 5 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comments read through it today on my phone - a nice read. Will jot some queries below. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 13:51, 12 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Sexual content is prominent in the stories, though not in the gratuitous manner of underground comix, which celebrated a hedonistic lifestyle. In Contract, the sex is not so much erotic as disturbing, its characters frustrated or filled with guilt - this comes across as an opinion (not in itself a bad thing) but maybe better to add who said it and clarify that it is their observation/opinion.
Well, it's cited to two different sources. I'd like to provide more context to the statement, but it would likely fall under OR—basically, sexual (or other grown-up) content was taboo in American comics (especially under the Comics Code Authority). Underground comix was pretty much all about breaking taboos, and they took it to extremes. So you had the reserved extremes of the mainstream versus the gratuitous extremes of the undergrounds, and Eisner's treatment of sexuality (neither avoiding nor flaunting it) more or less stood alone in 1978. Curly Turkey (gobble) 23:03, 12 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Benny tries to rape Goldie - seems pretty extreme just dropped in there....can some more story/context be provided?
I'm not sure there's much more to it than is stated—Benny thought he would get himself a rich wife, and when he discovered she was as poor as he was, he took out his frustration on her in a noble, manly way. Actually, there is an error (that I've now corrected): he didn't just "try to" rape her, he raped her (although it's later revealed that he was unable to penetrate, I don't think there's a definition of rape that this wouldn't fall under). I suppose it is extreme and sudden, but that is pretty much how it was in the story—Goldie tells Benny she's poor, and the next thing you know he's taking off his shirt and tears all her clothes to ribbons with one yank (I'm sure this is compression of action or something, but I'd call it less than deftly handled on Eisner's part). Curly Turkey (gobble) 23:03, 12 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
How about "sexually assaults" then? Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 09:42, 13 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Hmmm ... I'm still mulling this over. Some "sexually assaulted" almost seems to dance around what Benny did—"sexual assault" covers a broad range of activities, including those that are far less egregious than what Benny did. If someone else chimes in preferring "sexually assaulted", I won't oppose, but for now I'd prefer to leave it as it is. Curly Turkey (gobble) 01:32, 14 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Okay. Happy to pause on this one or wait for other opinions on consensus. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 03:51, 15 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Ok - looking at the segment of text at Duncan p. 147 - I think some more word substitution to distance from the source/paraphrasing would be a good thing (agree this looks tricky as I have tried thinking of some synonyms) - e.g. "cutter" I have no idea what occupation that is, surely there is a better contemporary word (?). Am trying to think of a synonym for "snub" too ..."rebuff"?
Changed "snubbed" to "Herbie, an intern Goldie had earlier turned down".
Benny works for "Pinkus Furs"—I guess he cuts furs? There aren't a lot of clues in the story. He's shown at work, but he's not working—he's putting on a necktie getting ready for vacation, as a "Mr Cohen" tells the phone operator "Tell Pinkus we can't ship today—Benny, our cutter is goin' on vacation!" I suppose I could cahnge it to "a cutter in a fur factory" or something, but I'm not sure it's even a factory ... Curly Turkey (gobble) 01:32, 14 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I think I would add the factory as on its own the word is archaic to the point I guessed what it meant but never heard/seen it used. Agree I can't see any other synonym for cutter.
The thing is, I can't even be sure it's a factory. It's only shown briefly as a dark room—the panel's mostly black—and it's not clear at all what's going on in there (to me, anyways). There appear to be a couple of furs (I assume) on a table in front of one character, and apparently Benny is the only cutter (does this mean it's a small operation, or is there typically only one cutter? I have no idea). Curly Turkey (gobble) 04:59, 15 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Also, the para on sex, Duncan put the disturbing rather than erotic in quotes (I guess) because the contrast between the two was specifically made by Lambert, so I am uneasy about generalising it here - almost all these comments are observations/evaluations made by the author of the chapter, so I think some should be attributed - the explanation of Eisner's background is interesting here too and might be worth adding (and that can be attributed) Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 12:24, 13 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
annoyingly, Lambert seems not to be listed as a reference :P ...I think it is this - be good to look up...and its on google books Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 12:27, 13 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Got it, and attributed to Lambert. Curly Turkey (gobble) 01:32, 14 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
You didn't think Eisner's background was good to go in here too? Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 03:51, 15 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry, which part of his background do you mean? I'm not seeing it. Curly Turkey (gobble) 04:59, 15 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
(sorry re delay) the second last para pn p. 147 of Duncan - "He was an artist pushing the boundaries of the comic book form, yet he was a conservative middle-aged businessman" Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 21:21, 18 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, I see. That's good to add, and now I've done so. Curly Turkey (gobble) 07:23, 19 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Hmmm, otherwise happy with prose and have checked that stories do not paraphrase Duncan text. Leaning support pending discussion of above (not sure if above essential) and others coming along and taking a look and being happy with it. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 21:30, 18 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

  • I was the GA reviewer of the article, and I have looked at the progress it has been through since the GA review and am happy to support. The outcome of the discussion above is not likely to influence this stance.User:Maunus ·ʍaunus·snunɐw· 00:13, 10 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • This article makes for a good read, support on prose and comprehensiveness. Not seeing a problem with the rape bit Cas mentioned above, especially if it is extreme and sudden in the story. As for "cutter", that term is explained at Clothing#Working_conditions – perhaps a redirect (with possibilities) could be created to link there, and be linked to by this article? - Evad37 [talk] 09:33, 13 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
    • I've redlinked it, but I wouldn't redirect it to that section, since it's not logically about cutting, it just mentions it in passing. A book search suggests "cutter" is short for "clothing cutter", but I can't find a "clear cut" enogh description to make an article out of it ... Curly Turkey (gobble) 01:40, 14 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support Maus shmaus. Overrated. Anyhow, some comments:
    • I was surprised to read that the book sold poorly. Will told me that it sold well. He talked about the "blue" edition (the Kitchen sink one? I only have the "brown" edition)
      • Mine's a Kitchen Sink softcover edition, and it's brown. Maybe it sold better than he expected, but "poorly" in retrospect? Comics sales were in the shitter in 1978. Curly Turkey (gobble) 01:40, 14 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
    • Also strange to read about Will as "middle-aged businessman". He was in his late 60s.
      • 61, but good point. What exactly is the cut-off for "middle-aged"? Curly Turkey (gobble) 01:40, 14 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
        • According to the Wikipedia, it can be up to 65.
    • I would not say that Eisner's status as a cartoonist grew since he was already associated with the best of the best; but certainly his reputation spread through a wider audience.
      • He was associated with the best of the best of a previous generation, but this was an age of rising expectations, and he contributed to those rising expectations. Curly Turkey (gobble) 01:40, 14 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Hawkeye7 (talk) 11:48, 13 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Note -- pls seek a source review for formatting/reliability. Cheers, ~!Ian Rose (talk)

Source review - spotchecks not done

  • FN12: page formatting
  • Are Dauber and Lambert missing an editor name?
  • If you're going to include accessdate for Gustines, Schjeldahl should have it also. Nikkimaria (talk) 14:11, 14 May 2014 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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