Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Abishabis/archive1

Add links
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Ian Rose via FACBot (talk) 9 July 2023 [1].

Abishabis[edit]

Nominator(s): Z1720 (talk) 20:49, 19 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Happy to return after a two-year absence. This article is about a Cree religious leader from the 19th century. Methodist missionaries and Hudson's Bay Company employees gave various accounts of his life and teachings, which have been analysed by modern-day researchers. Although the article is shorter than my previous ones, I think I have incorporated all the sources I could find. Thank you Phlsph7 for the PR, Firefangledfeathers for the GOCE copyedit and Mike Christie for the recent GAN review. I look forward to your comments. Z1720 (talk) 20:49, 19 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Image review
For the first image, is a publication date known? If it was actually published in 1853 then it would be {{PD-1923}}. (t · c) buidhe 21:06, 19 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Buidhe: While I could not find the exact image, a colour version of the image is available in the Libraries and Archives collection with the same information as the image in this article. The publication date listed is 1853, so I have changed the US PD template to PD-1923. Z1720 (talk) 02:11, 22 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Buidhe: Is the above fine for the image? Z1720 (talk) 16:42, 29 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Yes (t · c) buidhe 17:17, 29 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Support from Gog the Mild[edit]

Recusing to review. Has it really been two years? It seems much more recent. Yet two years is too long, welcome back. Marking a space to have a look at this one. Gog the Mild (talk) 21:08, 19 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

My last FAC passed in Aug 2021, so it's been 21 months! Z1720 (talk) 01:58, 22 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Gog the Mild: Ajpolino indicated that they would be busy the next few days. Do you want to start your review in the meantime? Z1720 (talk) 12:01, 8 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • I can't find any mention of "Small Eyes" in the main text.
    • I searched every source used in the article again, and I can't find any additional information about the "Small Eyes" name. I do not know if this is a nickname, a middle name, an alternate name, a translation, or something else. Since there's nothing more to say, I think it's best to have it in the lede with an inline citation. Z1720 (talk) 14:54, 9 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
From the MoS: "Apart from basic facts, significant information should not appear in the lead if it is not covered in the remainder of the article." I don't think that an alternate name about which we seem to know nothing counts as a "basic fact". If it is to be mentioned at all it should be briefly in the main article, with nothing in the lead.
  • I moved the Small Eyes information to a note, as I did something similar in William Lyon Mackenzie. Another option is to mention Small Eyes in "Early life and background" at the beginning of the first paragraph, either in the text or as a note. Thoughts? Z1720 (talk) 18:48, 17 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Either works, although personally I would be inclined to go for putting it in EL&BG.
  • "Stories of Abishabis were passed down by the Cree people, who claimed that Abishabis introduced Christianity to them." I am left unsure from this as to whether either of these is still the case.
  • Added to the lede: "In 1930, John Montgomery Cooper reported that stories of Abishabis..." Z1720 (talk) 21:50, 8 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • The ISBN for Papers of the Algonquian Conference Volume 13 is 978-0770901233.
  • The two Brown works and Williamson need page ranges.
  • "Abishabis was from a district that contained York Factory." And so? What is York Factory and why is it significant?
    • Added that Abishabis's group traded with HBC at York Factory, to describe their relationship. Z1720 (talk) 15:00, 9 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • It would be helpful if what "Cree" means could be explained.
    • I added information about who the Cree were in relation to HBC (fur traders, etc.) Z1720 (talk) 17:21, 9 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • "by the Hudson's Bay Company". Which is/was what?
    • I added information about the company, including that they traded furs to Europe. Z1720 (talk) 17:21, 9 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • "frequent traders with HBC". Should that be 'the HBC'?
That seems ungrammatical to me, but I shall let it pass.
  • "The group that he belonged to were frequent traders with HBC, and relied upon guns to hunt." You and I may understand the link between the two parts of this sentence, but it is asking a lot of a casual reader. Possibly it will be explained when York Factory and HBC are unpacked a little above.
    • Some info was added further up, and I added to this sentence: "and relied upon guns to hunt the furs that they traded to HBC." Z1720 (talk) 17:30, 9 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • "manipulation from the devil". I think that should be an upper case D.
    • Source uses a capital D, so I changed it to a capital D. Z1720 (talk) 17:49, 9 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Abishabis's claims of receiving food and clothing in exchange for the faith of his followers went unfulfilled." Did he claim that he had received these, or that he would? I am unsure from the text.
    • Simplified to "and demanded larger quantities of food and clothing."
  • "to travel to Severn House ... arrived in Severn". Which ?
    • Changed to Severn House in each instance (and fixed a wikilink). Z1720 (talk) 17:58, 9 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Hargrave gave this order to prevent an uprising of the Cree people against HBC." You state this as a fact. Do the sources agree that it was, or should we be saying 'Hargrave claimed that he gave this order to prevent an uprising of the Cree people against HBC'?
    • The source (N. Williamson) is interpreting Hargrave's action based on reports and letters sent by HBC employees at the time. In the article I clarified that this is Williason's opinion. Z1720 (talk) 18:08, 9 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The sentence seems to be unchanged.

More to follow. Gog the Mild (talk) 20:41, 8 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Gog the Mild: Responses above. Z1720 (talk) 18:08, 9 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • "the possibility of not having enough food for the upcoming winter." I fail to see the connection between this and disobeying Hargreave's order.
    • I added information about Cromartie's anxieties about the food: It's a fair bit of text so I invite you to read it in the article (instead of posting here). Z1720 (talk) 22:55, 12 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Indigenous people". Why the upper case initial I?
    • In MOS:RACECAPS, Indigenous has an uppercase. In other policies and guidelines, capitalisation is also used, which is why I capitalised in this article. I did a ctr+F and ensured that all instances of Indigenous were capitalised in the article. Z1720 (talk) 23:00, 12 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • "a claim disputed by Norman Williamson." Is Williamson disputing "Indigenous people's claims" or what "Cromartie wrote".
    • I tried explaining it in the text, but it was too complicated so I just removed this. Z1720 (talk) 23:04, 12 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • "a group of Cree forcibly removed him from his jail cell, murdered him, and burned his body" is in the lead. The main article makes no mention of them being Cree.
    • Good catch! In past iterations of the article, the body also said that the people who took Abishabis were Cree. This is disputed in other sources, and it gets complicated, so the simple thing to do was change it to people. Unfortunately, we also forgot to change it in the lede. Z1720 (talk) 23:07, 12 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • "and paint books." Could this be unpacked a little? )I have a mental image of groups sitting round on Sundays painting over pages of bibles, but suspect I am wrong.)
    • Source doesn't have any additional information. The quote from the source is, "Followers sang psalms, observed the Sabbath, and painted books. Z1720 (talk) 23:11, 12 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Ho hum. Ok.
  • "he stated that he had traveled to the sky". Is this the same place as "the Christian concept of heaven as a place in the sky for morally good people"?
    • I re-read the text to get a better understanding: in short, no. When the Cree claimed to have gone to the sky, they claimed to have gone to a place to receive knowledge and blessings. This would be a different location to heaven (where good people go after they die), as the Cree believed that heaven was a location in the west. Z1720 (talk) 23:44, 12 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Norman Williamson wrote that the role of Abishabis's revelations was to ..." "wrote" → 'writes'.
  • "the winter of 1843 and 1844". Do you mean 'the winter of 1843 to 1844' or 'the winters of 1843 and 1844'?
    • Changed to "the winter following his death" as it is referring to a couple of months.
  • Link Moose Factory.
  • "The Cree stated that Abishabis had introduced Christianity to them." Does this refer (just) to those Cree who Cooper spoke to?
    • The source only refers to the people who lived in Moose Factory. I tried clarifying in the article. Z1720 (talk) 23:51, 12 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

A nice little article. Gog the Mild (talk) 22:08, 9 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Gog the Mild: More responses above. Z1720 (talk) 23:51, 12 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Lovely stuff. A couple of minor come backs above. If I have not commented on one of your responses, then I am content with it. Gog the Mild (talk) 18:37, 17 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Gog the Mild: Responded to the Small Eyes comment, which might need your response. Did I miss other comments? Z1720 (talk) 18:52, 17 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Er. No. Sorry. A great little article, happy to support - note my response on Small Eyes. Gog the Mild (talk) 19:16, 17 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Aoba47[edit]

Apologies in advance as this article is outside of my normal comfort zone, but I wanted to try and review different articles to try and be more helpful with the FAC process. My comments are below:

  • Small Eyes is currently only mentioned in the lead. I would be curious if more context could be provided for this name, either in the body of the article or in an endnote, as I was initially uncertain of what to make of this. I am guessing it is a translation of his name, but I think this should be clearer if that is the case.
    • I searched all the sources used in the article, and "Small Eyes" (if mentioned) is placed in brackets next to Abishabis's name (example: Biographi). If I find a source that explains the background of the name, I will add that information. Z1720 (talk) 22:36, 21 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
      • Thank you for the explanation. It is an odd case, but if there is not any coverage about its meaning, there's nothing that can be done and this would seem like the best possible solution given the context. Aoba47 (talk) 23:41, 21 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • The lead identifies the murdered family as First Nations (which I would recommend linking), but the article itself (at least from what I can tell) does not identify the family this way.
    • Indigenous is added back into the body, as it is verified by Biographi and implied in the accompanying note as one of people murdered might have been Abishabis's in-law, who would be Indigenous. Z1720 (talk) 22:36, 21 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Since Manitoba is linked in the lead, I would link it for the first instance in the article as well for consistency. I have the same comment for Ontario.
    • Some FAC reviewers only want the first instance of a word wikilinked, as mentioned below with windigo. If other reviewers mention this then I will wikilink Manitoba and Ontario twice, but for now I'll only link the first instance per MOS:REPEATLINK. Z1720 (talk) 22:36, 21 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
      • To be clear, I am not asking for either location to be linked twice. Manitoba and Ontario are not linked at all in the article, which is treated separately from the lead, and that is why items like York Factory and Hudson's Bay Company are linked in their first instances in the lead and the article. Aoba47 (talk) 23:04, 21 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
        • Manitoba and Ontario have now been wikilinked. Z1720 (talk) 02:13, 22 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • For this part, (as a form of tithing), I think a link for tithing would be helpful for readers like myself who has no idea what that word means.
    • I wikilinked to Tithe as I think that's a more accurate definition of what is meant by the word. Z1720 (talk) 22:36, 21 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
      • Noting here that, due to a comment below, tithing was taken out so this is moot. Z1720 (talk) 01:48, 22 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
        • Thank you for the update on this matter. Aoba47 (talk) 02:25, 22 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • The term windigo is linked twice in the article, and it should only be linked on its first instance. Also, this is more of a clarification question, but any reason for using this spelling rather than wendigo?
    • I removed the second wikilink to windigo. Z1720 (talk) 22:36, 21 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    • The "Brown, Jennifer (1982)" source spelt it as windigo, so I followed that example as that seemed to be the more comprehensive source about this information. Z1720 (talk) 22:36, 21 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • I do have a quick clarification question about this sentence (The Cree stated that Abishabis had introduced Christianity to them.). Do we have any further information on how the Cree view Abishabis or if there is any deeper legacy or impression left of him either in the Cree community or that area of Canada? I am mostly curious about how much of a legacy he left. I completely understand if this is all the information available.
    • As far as I know, the sources don't give much more information than what is in the article. It seems like the Methodists and HBC were successful in getting the Cree to stop following him, and much of the information we know about him is from those groups of people. Also, oral histories of Indigenous culture are less likely to be commented on by Western scholars than European written documents, so the sources that I found did not comment on what the Cree (if anything) the Cree say about Abishabis today. Z1720 (talk) 22:36, 21 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
      • That is what I thought from reading the article, but I wanted to double-check. Thank you for the explanation as that makes sense to me. Aoba47 (talk) 23:07, 21 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I hope these comments are helpful. Again, apologies in advance if they are not helpful as this is very off the beaten path for me. I will read through the article some more this weekend just to do my due diligence as a reviewer and to try and provide a review to the best of my capability. I hope you have a wonderful weekend, and best of luck with this FAC! Aoba47 (talk) 00:40, 20 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Aoba47: Thank you for the comments. Non-expert prose reviews are really helpful because it ensures that the general reader understands the article. I responded to your comments above. Z1720 (talk) 22:36, 21 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I am glad that I could help! I have left some responses above, but I agree with and am appreciative of your edits and replies. I will re-read the article again tomorrow just to make sure that I did not miss anything. Aoba47 (talk) 23:07, 21 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Thank you for your patience with my review. I have read through the article a few more times, and I could not find any further issues. I support this FAC based on the prose. Aoba47 (talk) 22:26, 22 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Ajpolino[edit]

Interesting little article, thank you for the read. I had never heard of Abishabis so I gave it a quick Google to try to get a sense if anything in our article was missing or off. Some comments:

  • Is James Hargrave's take that "there was nothing remarkable about Abishabis... missionaries to the area" worth including? The Williamson piece says about Hargrave "Working at the depot, he knew little about the Cree, nor had he learned to speak their language." and prefaces the bit you cite with "If Hargrave's account has any merit...". Doesn't exactly instill confidence.
    • I included this opinion in the article because there isn't much information about Abishabis's life (hence the short article) so it was a low bar to include information. I included Hargrave's position in the sentence in order to give the audience a sense of what Hargrave's perspective might be. I am open to a better rewording of the sentence. Z1720 (talk) 01:47, 22 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • What supports our text "Support further weakened when Abishabis asked for his followers' wives as a form of tithing"? The Francis book only attributes directly to (maybe not the most reliable?) Hargraves the idea that Abishabis "went too far when he began coveting other men's wives" (A) Can we say that in Wikipedia's voice? and (B) I don't see the tithe bit. The Williamson piece has the two halves of this, but separately, and with less of a sex-cult vibe. Williamson says "Abishabis assumed the responsibilities and accoutrements of a Cre man of importance. Among other things he acquired more wives, a traditional sign of power and success. He supported those responsibilities by means of the tithe provided by [followers]." I took that to mean taking several wives was a culturally normal sign of power; and I'm not sure the tithe is intended to mean wives rather than something more typical like money/goods.
    • After looking at the sources, I couldn't find instances of wives being offered as tithing so I removed that part of the sentence. Some sources (Biographi and Irwin, Lee (2014)) say with relative certainty that Abishabis demanded wives so I switched out the reference. The sources do not cast doubt on Hargraves's statement about Abishabis's demands, so I think adding doubt about Hargraves's reliability in the article is original research and I did not include that. Z1720 (talk) 01:47, 22 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • The handshake - I was surprised by the handshake as a turning point. Williamson gives a small bit of context that the ritual handshake had resonance in the native and Methodist traditions. Any chance you can incorporate a tiny bit of context to this moment to help the reader understand that this was a meaningful ritual and rejection?
    • I added this information as "One day after prayers, Abishabis approached Hargrave to shake his hand; the Cree considered a handshake as a ritualistic action, and Abishabis intended for this to signal HBC's support of his group." Thoughts? Z1720 (talk) 01:47, 22 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • "bothering the population and refusing to leave despite harassment from the people" is contradicted by Williamson pg 233 (which quotes Cromarty as saying despite accusing Abishabis of being a Windigo, the other Indians were doing him no harm.)
    • I removed the second part, as sources claim contradictory things and the timeline is difficult to determine. Z1720 (talk) 01:47, 22 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • "but Abishabis did not respond." - we cite Williamson pg 234 which gives the Cromarty quote. I think(?) it says Abishabis denied participating the killing ("all that he said that he did not doo it") but I might be misunderstanding the quote.
    • I changed the article to "which Abishabis denied involvement with". Z1720 (talk) 01:47, 22 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Indigenous people approached Cromartie... claiming that Abishabis was threatening them if they did not give him resources." Williamson appears not to believe this, giving it only as part of Cromarty's quote and instead attributing Cromarty's actions to fear for the winter/camp/political situation. Should we believe it? Or at least should we be writing it in Wikipedia's voice?
    • While Williamson does not believe this claim, other sources do not express doubt about Cromartie's claim. In an effort to not give too much weight to Williamson's opinion over others, I have added the qualifier that this is what was written by Cromartie, a fact verified by Brown (in Biographi) and Williamson. Z1720 (talk) 01:47, 22 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Google found this article from Jennifer S. H. Brown which is a longer version of her Dictionary of Canadian Biography piece. Posting in case it's useful. Footnote 2 gives a potential alternative name spelling and parent's name. Also gives a name of the murdered, though of course it's different from the account Williamson seems to believe.
    • I added info from this source. Z1720 (talk) 01:47, 22 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    • Added information about the 1832 list, including the alternate name and parent's name. Z1720 (talk) 01:47, 22 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    • The name of the murdered is added to the note and attributed to Brown. The identities of the murdered varies between sources, so it's probably best to put in a note. Z1720 (talk) 01:47, 22 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Brown has a short article called "Aboriginal spiritual beliefs" in The Oxford Companion to Canadian History (accessible through Oxford Reference at The Wikipedia Library) where she claims there were two prophets Abishabis and Wasitek, and that they were of the Swampy Cree.
    • The two prophets is mentioned in note b: sources disagree on whether Wasitek was a real person, and there are not enough information or sources to justify a separate article for him. I think the note is sufficient. Z1720 (talk) 01:47, 22 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    • Name of the Cree group added, with a link to Swampy Cree. Z1720 (talk) 01:47, 22 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

That's it for now. Thanks again for the read. Ajpolino (talk) 13:33, 20 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Ajpolino: Notes above. Z1720 (talk) 01:47, 22 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Ajpolino: pinging in case you forgot. Have your concerns been addressed? Z1720 (talk) 02:00, 29 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for the ping and my apologies for losing track of this. Skimming the article, I think I'll just have a couple very small things. Give me a day or two to get back to you. Ajpolino (talk) 02:57, 29 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

A second (and final) round of comments:

  • "... and his group traded with HBC..." (a sentence later) "The group that he belonged to were frequent traders with HBC". Seems redundant. Maybe the second sentence can be cut?
  • "Abishabis's preaching divided the Cree people" seems strong. Did he divide the Cree, the Swampy Cree, the Cree who resided at HBC? Skimming the source it just says "he deeply divided the community". Maybe you have a sense of what that statement means from the rest of the source?
    • The rest of the source is pretty scarce, and the word community was deemed too vague as it was unclear which community was referenced. I don't know how else to phrase this. Z1720 (talk) 00:36, 13 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    I'd suggest removing it, since it currently makes a claim that may be untrue. Certainly the other sources suggest the HBC employees considered Abishabis a divisive figure among the Cree residing at HBC, but I'm not sure how to neatly phrase a sentence about that. Ajpolino (talk) 11:58, 13 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • "burned a 'track to heaven'" - I wondered what that entailed. The source says they burned a paper depicting the path to heaven. Perhaps you could clarify?
    • I rephrased to say that Barnston destroyed an artifact depicting a track to heaven. Z1720 (talk) 00:36, 13 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • I still think "asked for his followers' wives" could be tweaked to better match the sources. Imagine two scenarios: (A) Leader says "All of your wives belong to me now", (B) Leader says "I require more wives" obliging at least some followers to surrender their own. I think our text currently implies (A), but the sources imply (B)... Maybe in the first paragraph of the Religious activity section we could say something like "Abishabis's movement was supported by tithes from his followers. As his following grew he accumulated goods and additional wives, a traditional sign of success." (that last part is in Williamson pg 230) then in the second paragraph something like "As his following and influence waned, he was unable to support his wives, many of whom returned to their families."
    • I added some additional text in various places to clarify this. Z1720 (talk) 00:44, 13 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • I wonder if "Abishabis's missionaries... In response," could be cut without losing any real meaning from the article.
    • Removed: the windigo information is presented in the following section, and this is a little to specific. Z1720 (talk) 00:54, 13 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • "In response, HBC employees spread a rumor that Abishabis was a windigo" can probably be cut since the same information is given to us in context a paragraph later with "with orders to incite the Cree population to kill Abishabis by accusing him of being a windigo".
  • I think the story would flow more cleanly if the information in "Before beginning his ministry... pictographs with lines drawn upon wood or paper." was moved up to the beginning of the Religious activity section, since it's more about his religious activity and less about his views.
    • The first paragraph describes Cree beliefs before Abishabis's ministry, setting the foundation that Abishabis built upon. I moved information from that first paragraph about Abishabis's ministry to a new third paragraph in order to keep the information more chronological. Z1720 (talk) 00:54, 13 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Similarly "Abishabis claimed... demanded that his followers give him clothing and ammunition" could be chopped up. The tithe bit is redundant to what we read in the section above. The High Priest bit is interesting and could stay where it is or move up to when you describe his activity.
    • I removed the tithing bit. I decided to keep the High Priest info here as I don't think there' a good spot to put it in the biography section, as it's a little unclear when he made those claims. Z1720 (talk) 02:50, 13 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

That's all. Again, a very enjoyable read. Thank you for all your work on this. Ajpolino (talk) 12:47, 12 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Ajpolino: responses above. Z1720 (talk) 02:50, 13 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for your responsiveness and flexibility. I'm happy to support this FAC on the "comprehensive" and "well-researched" criteria. The sources are reliable as best I can tell, the article faithfully reflects the sources, and I failed to find significant information elsewhere that's not in the article. Ajpolino (talk) 11:56, 13 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Comments[edit]

  • "referred to as "Home Guard Indians" by Hudson's Bay Company" => "referred to as "Home Guard Indians" by the Hudson's Bay Company"
  • "In July 1843, Abishabis gathered supplies to travel to Severn House.[5] Abishabis was accused" => "In July 1843, Abishabis gathered supplies to travel to Severn House.[5] He was accused"
  • Windigo is linked twice
  • "Upon Abishabis's death, Abishabis's followers" => "Upon Abishabis's death, his followers"
    • This was reworded when responding to comments above, so this is moot. Z1720 (talk) 01:56, 22 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • "A woman and boy spread" => "A woman and a boy spread"
  • "Hargrave sent a report to the British government in London, which praised Hargrave's efforts" - was it the report or the govt that did the praising? --
    • Re-phrased as: "their response praised Hargrave's efforts to have Abishabis killed." Z1720 (talk) 01:56, 22 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

ChrisTheDude (talk) 07:35, 21 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@ChrisTheDude: responses above. Z1720 (talk) 01:56, 22 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@ChrisTheDude: pinging in case you forgot. Have your concerns been addressed? Z1720 (talk) 02:00, 29 May 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Comments Support by Kaiser matias[edit]

  • Is it worth noting his name in Cree syllabics in the lead?
    • None of the sources gave a Cree translation of his name, and most of what we know about him is from HBC and missionary documents (not Cree) which used the Latin alphabet. I would not feel comfortable using a machine-translated copy of his name. Z1720 (talk) 16:15, 3 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Abishabis was from a district that contained York Factory." I realize York Factory is linked, but have you considered noting where this in modern times for readers (ex. "...contained York Factory (in modern Manitoba)", or something like that). I see that is done later in the article as well (the first paragraph of "Religious activity", for example).
  • "He was Omushkego Cree, referred to as "Home Guard Indians" by Hudson's Bay Company (HBC)." Should have a "the" before Hudson's Bay Company, no? The mention of the HBC in the lead uses one, so best to be consistent and either keep it for both, or remove for both. From a modern perspective, I know it as "the HBC" (or "the Bay"), but if the convention in historical writing is to drop "the" I have no issue.
    • Done. Wikipedia's article uses "The Hudson's Bay Company" so that is what I standardised to in this article. Z1720 (talk) 16:15, 3 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • "In the years preceding Abishabis's religious pursuits, the group believed something was wrong with their hunting grounds, as they struggled to hunt caribou." Any idea what the Cree thought the issue was here?
    • I went back to the source, and it says that the Cree thought there was something wrong with the land, but did not expand upon this. It seems like the Cree were also struggling to figure out what was wong. Z1720 (talk) 16:15, 3 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Other than that I don't see anything else to note. As it is I mostly have questions about style, and the article is quite interesting. Kaiser matias (talk) 15:33, 3 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the quick work here. I'm happy with the above, and glad to support a solid article. Kaiser matias (talk) 16:27, 3 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Source review[edit]

I'll leave a few comments, and I can also do the source review, if one needs to be done (Gog the Mild?). ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 20:43, 18 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I believe that it does. Thank you. Gog the Mild (talk) 21:39, 18 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Source review
  • I don't believe Brown 1988 should be cited as a webpage, since it's an excerpt from the Dictionary of Canadian Biography; see the citation guidance at the bottom of the linked page.
    • I left it as a website template for two reasons: 1) that's where I got the information from, and 2) the website version is continuously updated, so this entry might be updated later, and I want to point people to the latest edition. Z1720 (talk) 18:07, 21 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • The website version is not continuously updated, otherwise the citation wouldn't be able to say Brown, Jennifer S. H. (1988) at all
  • The page number is included in both the inline and full citation of Ray 2004.
    • In the source, the entry for "Aboriginals in the Fur Trade" is only on page 12 (while the other entry from this book, Brown 2004a, is spread over multiple pages). Z1720 (talk) 18:07, 21 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Yes, that makes sense.
  • Sources checked for close paraphrasing and source-to-text integrity: Williamson 1980 and 2004, Brown 1988, and Round 2010. All good.
General comments
  • The article could use some wikilinks. "Windigo", "game", "missionary", "trading post", "tithes" etc. A lot more could be used for readers unfamiliar with the time period/sociocultural context.
    • I wikilined windigo and tithes, changed game to meat for simplicity's sake. I think missionary and trading post are pretty common words and wikilinking these might be WP:OVERLINK. Z1720 (talk) 18:07, 21 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Added a couple for international/unfamiliar readers; feel free to revert.
  • Should the acronymized Hudson's Bay Company be referred to as "HBC" or "the HBC"? A different example: the East India Company is normally referred to as "the EIC".
    • This was also brought up by Gog above: Wikipedia's article on the Hudson Bay Company uses both, so I chose to exclude the "the" in all instances, but I'm happy to put it in if other feel it is needed. Let me know your thoughts below, and I'll also post an informal thread at WP:CANADA to solicit other opinions. Z1720 (talk) 18:07, 21 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Per responses in WP:CANADA and here, I've changed most instances to "the HBC" unless grammatically incorrect to do so. Z1720 (talk) 13:10, 22 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • On a similar note, you could vary the use of "the HBC" with "the Company" to avoid repetition.
  • I don't think I'll capitalise company, but I replaced HBC with other uses. Z1720 (talk) 18:07, 21 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • The acronym in brackets isn't needed in the lead, as the shortened form isn't used until the body.
  • Maybe you could decrease the usage of "Abishabis"—it's used 66 times in a 1500 word article (4% of the total), and alternatives are available.
    • I changed some of the usages to other variants. Z1720 (talk) 18:07, 21 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Otherwise looks good, Z1720. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 15:28, 21 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@AirshipJungleman29: Responses above. Z1720 (talk) 18:16, 21 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Just the two issues of Brown 1988 and "HBC" remaining, Z1720. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 00:26, 22 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@AirshipJungleman29: Responses above. Z1720 (talk) 13:10, 22 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Gog the Mild, I pass the source review and support the promotion of this nomination. ~~ AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 13:15, 22 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from CT55555[edit]

This is my first time chiming in at FAC, so take these as comments, not as expert advice. Some minor critiques, none show stoppers:

  1. The Omushkego Cree relied upon guns to hunt the furs. Is this really the best way to say it? They didn't hunt furs, they hunted animals that they turned into furs.
  • Changed to, "The Omushkego Cree relied upon guns to hunt animals, and the furs from these animals were traded to the HBC." Open to other wording suggestions. Z1720 (talk) 02:59, 3 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  1. I find the addition of the (apparently not notable) James Hargrave's comments a net negative. This is basically: a non important European man did not consider an Indigenous man remarkable.
  • This section focuses a lot on Abishabis's background; this sentence was placed here to give additional information about Abishabis's early life, of which little is known. Z1720 (talk) 02:59, 3 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  1. I don't understand the sentence They also reported that followers relied upon wooden carvings for salvation and consequently starved to death. How does someone's religious ceremony result in starvation?
  • Changed to "They also reported that followers relied upon wooden carvings for salvation and neglected the consumption of food or drink, causing some of them to starve to death." Z1720 (talk) 02:59, 3 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  1. Before beginning his ministry, Abishabis separated himself from the group What group?
  • Changed to "Before beginning his ministry, Abishabis separated himself from the Cree and the HBC employees." Z1720 (talk) 02:59, 3 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  1. ...and painted books What does that mean? They painted in book? Or painted images of books?
  • This was talked about above: the source says "Followers sang psalms, observed the Sabbath, and painted books." There's no additional information other than that. Z1720 (talk) 02:59, 3 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  1. Consider linking psalms. might not be intuitive to non-Christians.

Overall a good article. Great to see more Indigenous history being promoted on Wikipedia. It is easy to read and covers the topic with the right length. Everything seems well cited and neutrally written. It does seem to rely on what Europeans said about him, rather than Indigenous sources, but I recognise the challenge we have with history being written by the colonisers and Indigenous people's tendency to rely on oral story telling.

As a new reviewer, I think I should comment rather than support or oppose, but I'll just hint that it seems good notwithstanding the minor comments I made above. CT55555(talk) 02:39, 3 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@CT55555: Responses above. Z1720 (talk) 02:59, 3 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I find all the fixes to be good and the book painting explanation to be reasonable. I stand by my point about James Hargrave's opinion being a net negative. I'm new to this, so my grumble about that should be taken in the context of this being my first FAC review involvement. CT55555(talk) 03:17, 3 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Just one follow up comment: are the Cree and the HBC employees two distinct groups? I assumed not (based on hazy memory of the topic). i.e. is ...separated himself from the Cree and the HBC employees going to be correct? Sorry to not have an elegant solution here, in the event that they are overlapping groups. CT55555(talk) 03:20, 3 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Yes they are. "Early life and background" gives more information about the relationship between these two groups. Z1720 (talk) 04:10, 3 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
OK, then my original "all the fixes are good" comment stands. CT55555(talk) 04:13, 3 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Featured_article_candidates/Abishabis/archive1&oldid=1164595830"