Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Battle of Hayes Pond/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Buidhe via FACBot (talk) 16 November 2021 [1].

Battle of Hayes Pond[edit]

Nominator(s): Indy beetle (talk) 22:58, 14 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

This article is about a January 1958 clash that erupted in Robeson County, North Carolina U.S. between Lumbee Native Americans and a band of Ku Klux Klan members. Long story short, a white supremacist KKK organization, led by a certain James W. "Catfish" Cole of South Carolina, decided that it would be a good idea to burn crosses to intimidate the 30,000-strong Native American community in triracial Robeson and then follow up with a highly-publicized nighttime rally in a cornfield to denounce race mixing. About 50 Klansmen attended the rally, as did a few hundred well-armed and rather annoyed Lumbees. After a 30-minute shouting match the Lumbees opened fire, striking a few Klansmen and sending Cole fleeing for his life into a swamp, leaving behind his wife and children. They then stole all the Klan regalia, including the cross which was to be burnt, and went into town to celebrate. The national news had a good laugh about it—a photo of two Lumbee wrapped in the KKK banner made a full page in Life magazine—while the local authorities, quite annoyed by all the trouble, indicted Cole for inciting a riot and sent him to prison. A recent campaign video by a Congressional candidate that recounts these events went viral at the beginning of this month. It's one of the more celebrated incidents in the Lumbee timeline and overall a great historical curiosity. The article just passed GAn and I think it would be great to be a FA in time for its anniversary on January 18, 2022. -Indy beetle (talk) 22:58, 14 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

  • Image licensing looks good (t · c) buidhe 23:48, 14 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

CommentsSupport by Z1720[edit]

Non-expert prose review.

  • "between members of a Ku Klux Klan (KKK) organization" Organization might be redundant here, as the article already calls them a Klan, but I'm not sure.
    • Some people call the KKK an organization of itself, but this is rather misleading. It's really an overarching set of ideas and customs shared among different formal organizations. There were multiple KKK organizations active in the South and in North Carolina in 1958, and this clash only involved one of them, the North Carolina Knights, as the article goes on to explain.
  • The lede says, "The clash resulted in the rally breaking up" while the infobox says, "Klan rally disrupted". Personally, I like disrupted better, but regardless these need to align.
    • Changed lede to say "The clash resulted in the disruption of the rally".
  • "In early 1958 Cole decided to focus his efforts" -> In early 1958 Cole focused his efforts
    • Done.
  • "a group of people who had their origins in various other indigenous peoples" -> a group whose origins were various other indigenous peoples
    • Done.
  • "driving throughout the county in a truck outfitted with a loudspeaker, broadcasting their plans." -> driving throughout the county in a truck outfitted with a loudspeaker, to broadcast their plans.
    • Done.
  • "and some discussed the situation and decided to try to disrupt the meeting." -> and some decided to try to disrupt the meeting. I don't think it's important to add that they discussed the situation, as trying to disrupt the meeting implies that they discussed a plan first.
    • Done.
  • "In 1830, the United States government began a policy of Indian removal, forcibly relocating Native American populations in the American South further west. Native Americans in Robeson County, North Carolina, were not subject to removal." It seems weird to mention something that didn't happen to the group, and I'm not sure why it is important for the reader to know this.
    • I suppose it isn't intrinsically relevant to this story, but it's somewhat important to understanding the Lumbee tribe overall. They're the largest Native American population east of the Mississippi in the US, and within NC the only other tangible native communities are the very small Haliwa-Saponi people and the few Cherokee in the mountains who escaped removal. In essence, a large Native American community in the South was/is a very unusual thing (thanks to the 1830 removal) and it allowed for the development of the unusual tripartite segregation.
      • If this information is here to outline the unusual circumstance of the area, then this should be explicitly stated. Currently, it is unclear why this information is in article. Z1720 (talk) 00:45, 18 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
        • @Z1720: I think I've done a better job of weaving this fact into the narrative, have a look. -Indy beetle (talk) 03:26, 18 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "In the early 1950s, some led by D. F. Lowry" Who is D. F. Lowry? A short explainer might be necessary.
    • A Christian minister; added.
  • "approximately 10 miles from Pembroke." Add Template:Convert to convert the units to km.
    • Done.
  • "and used this to recruit new members across the state with some success.[61] Across the state, Klan leaders " across the state is used two times in close succession. Recommend rephrasing one.
    • Revised.
  • "In the decades following newspapers in North Carolina periodically cited" -> "Newspapers in North Carolina periodically cite"
    • Revised.

Those are my thoughts. Please ping when ready for a second look. Z1720 (talk) 15:44, 16 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

  • @Z1720: I've responded to your comments. -Indy beetle (talk) 00:38, 18 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Comment above regarding the 1830 policy of relocating Native American populations. Z1720 (talk) 00:45, 18 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
      • @Z1720: What do you think? -Indy beetle (talk) 01:35, 10 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
        • @Indy beetle: Sorry for the delay; real-life has been very busy. Here are some follow-up notes:
          • "In the 1960s anthropologist Karen Blu interviewed several," Several who?
            • Clarified as "Lumbee participants".
          • "Sources disagree on how the tension boiled over." tension boiled over is an MOS:IDIOM, suggest changing it to "Sources disagree on how the physical confrontation started." or something similar.
            • I was also dissatisfied with using a turn of phrase; implemented your wording.
          • "One Klansman, James Garland Martin, was found by deputies lying in a ditch.[44] Martin served as Cole's sergeant-at-arms.[45] McLeod arrested him for public drunkenness and carrying a concealed weapon." Since there are lots of short sentences in this part of the article, perhaps merge these two together as, "James Garland Martin, a Klansman who served as Cole's sergeant-at-arms, was found by deputies lying in a ditch and subsequently arrested for public drunkenness and carrying a concealed weapon." Thoughts?
            • Done.
Please ping once the above are addressed. Z1720 (talk) 02:42, 15 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • @Z1720: Hope real life is easing up on you. I've responded to your comments. -Indy beetle (talk) 09:32, 15 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Eh, real life will be what it is :P. Comments have been addressed. I can support. Z1720 (talk) 17:03, 15 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Funk[edit]

  • Looks interesting, will have a look soon. FunkMonk (talk) 17:40, 18 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "was later covered by Pete Seeger" Present him too?
    • Done.
  • "and a commitment Protestant Christianity" Commitment to? And link the religion?
    • Fixed grammar, Protestantism is linked further up.
  • Link mongrelization to something?
    • Linked miscegenation, since that seems to be what Cole was concerned about
  • "One Klansmen went into the offices" Klansman?
    • Fixed.
  • "them to advertise" I assume this should be American English, advertize?
    • Fixed.
  • "Accounts of how organised" Likewise, perhaps check throughout for inconsistent spelling.
    • Fixed.
  • "frequently criticised" Again.
    • Fixed.
  • "They were confidant" Confident?
    • Fixed.
  • "Well, you're ain't gone talk" is this grammatical error intentional? Add sic?
    • [Sic] added, such is the Lumbee dialect.
  • "gathering in front the police" In front of?
    • Fixed.
  • Is it appropriate to use the term "Indians" outside direct quotations? For example "was an armed confrontation between members of a Ku Klux Klan (KKK) organization and Lumbee Indians". Isn't the term "native American" the preferred term now?
    • More generally, Native American is the preferred term nationally, but lots of sources still refer to the Lumbees as the "Lumbee Indians" (that's why I used the term). See for example Malinda Maynor Lowry's books (Lowry is a Lumbee historian) or this 2020 article from The Fayetteville Observer. I think "Indian" has become an internalised part of the Lumbee identity, and thus it shouldn't be seen as impolite.
  • "ran stories on clash" On the?
    • Fixed.
  • "the armed black resistance to the KKK in Monroe in 1957" Any article to link?
    • No article at this time, though the Williams article which is linked does describe the incident in some detail.
  • " Cole appealed his case and was freed on bond, but lost the appeal the following year and was sent to prison." and "In early 1959 Cole was arrested in South Carolina for posing as a private investigator and shortly thereafter lost his appeal in North Carolina for the riot charge and was imprisoned.". Isn't this the same info repeated in short succession? Consolidate?
    • Revised first part to read Cole appealed his case and was freed on bond pending its reconsideration.
  • "a song about incident" About the?
    • Fixed.
  • Link racial segregation in intro.
    • Done.
  • Link Native Americans at first mention in intro instead of second.
  • Support - looking nice to me now. FunkMonk (talk) 20:15, 24 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Source review - pass[edit]

Will start soon. Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 18:31, 18 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

  • There is a mix of location usage for sources, standardize.
    • Done for the books, as is standard practice.
  • I've used Hyphenator to fix the hyphens of the ISBN's listed.
  • For standardization, you may wish to move the newspaper and website cites to the Bibliography section and citing them only with author/name and year.
    • I honestly don't see much utility in that; the advantage of sfn is it gives you enough info you need to know to verify the material without giving you too much every time. This is helpful when there's a need to recall lots of different page numbers without citing the entire book/thesis/journal article every time, or when citing the page in the context of a very large work. These newspaper articles run at most two pages, thus there's not much differentiation between the whole article and the exact page on which the info could be found.
  • What makes Scalawag Magazine a reliable source?
    • It's a small magazine with a political bent but it has an editorial staff. More importantly, the author of that particularly article is historian and college professor Malinda Maynor Lowery, and two of her books (published by university presses) are cited in this article. She says in the article that it is largely based off the research she did for one of the books.
      Willing to accept on her merits, even if hosted by a source that may not pass as HQRS on its own.
  • Have no objection to other sources as reliable, although the LumbeeTribe source would struggle to pass as "high-quality". Substitution of it with one from the Robesonian or one from Indianz, of generally higher quality, would fix the problem. Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 19:36, 18 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Well, that website is the official website of the Lumbee Tribe organization; I couldn't think of what would be a better source for information about passed resolutions of the Lumbee Tribe's governing body.
      I would suggest the switch, but I will accept Lumbee Tribe.
      • Added The Robesonian, but I've kept the Lumbee Tribe. -Indy beetle (talk) 17:18, 19 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Comments Support from Therapyisgood[edit]

  • Very well written, just from reading the lead.
  • In 1835 the "In 1835" is a bit of an Easter egg.
    • I'm not sure where else to link the consitutional convention, since that is the closest we have for an article on the 1835 NC Constitution, though I could replace the normal constitution link.
  • Klansmen in robes with burning cross. This photo was probably taken on January 13, 1958 in either St. Pauls or Lumberton. caption needs a reference.
    • That information came with the photo, which comes from the official Flickr page of the North Carolina State Archives where it was posted here.
  • In 1954 the United States Supreme Court issued its decision in the case Brown v. Board of Education → In 1954 the United States Supreme Court issued its decision in Brown v. Board of Education'
    • Done.
  • "burnt" or burned?
    • Fixed
  • they should "take [their] time" in breaking up a clash. who should take their time?
    • His deputies. I thought that would be implied, since Sheriff McLeod wouldn't be giving anyone else orders.
  • The Klansmen responded by calling the Lumbees "half-niggers" can you link the n-word?
    • Done.
It seems from reading about the Lumbees that they have partial African ancestry as well. Could that have something to do with the provocations of the KKK (and this slur)? Could be added if that's the case. FunkMonk (talk) 23:58, 26 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • @FunkMonk: Info added about mixed ancestry. That probably had something to do with it, as well as Cole's complaints about "mongrelization". I do think some white supremacists during that time believed that the Lumbee weren't really Indian at all, they were simply a bastard community of white swamp people and runaway slaves, but I have yet to have found a scholarly source drawing a direct link between that and this event. Maybe one shall turn up. -Indy beetle (talk) 00:35, 27 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • The video went viral on the internet. the source says the video went viral but doesn't say how many views or engagement it got. Perhaps a bit circular. Can you find anything on views? Therapyisgood (talk) 15:56, 26 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    • Replaced with different source which says at least 5 million views.
  • @Therapyisgood: I've responded to your comments. -Indy beetle (talk) 23:53, 26 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Support for featured article status. Therapyisgood (talk) 23:29, 1 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Copyvio check[edit]

Earwig indicates that there is some minor close paraphrasing [2] [3] (t · c) buidhe 22:33, 15 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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