Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Black-throated loon/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Ian Rose via FACBot (talk) 11:47, 14 August 2017 [1].

Black-throated loon[edit]

Nominator(s): RileyBugz会話投稿記録 15:11, 29 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

This article is about a bird that inhabits a wide range across northern Europe and Asia. It also can be found in parts of Alaska. Anyways, hope you find the article interesting. RileyBugz会話投稿記録 15:11, 29 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Image review from Adityavagarwal[edit]

  • There are four five images in the article (three four images and one range map). No issues, and everything is great! I think that this image could be used too. It pictures the young, and we also have lot of space, so would not be an issue, I guess. Adityavagarwal (talk) 15:52, 29 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Did that. I also staggered the images a bit. RileyBugz会話投稿記録 16:08, 29 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Great one! An awesome article. Everything is good to go from the image review. Adityavagarwal (talk) 16:27, 29 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Le Comments de Sunbird du Sabine[edit]

Just some starter ones from my first pass through before I have breakfast:

  • The adult black-throated loon is 58 to 77 cm (23 to 30 in) in length with a 100 to 130 cm (39 to 51 in) wingspan, shaped like a smaller, sleeker version of the common loon is an "and is" needed to link the measurements to the bit starting "shaped like" cause this scans weirdly
Done. RileyBugz会話投稿記録 22:41, 29 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • The sexes are alike, and the subspecies viridigularis is differentiated from the nominate by the former's green throat patch, compared to the latter's black throat patch. This might be more elegantly stated as The sexes are alike, and the subspecies viridigularis is very similar to the nominate except that it has a green throat patch, instead of black.
Done, except that I replaced "it" with "the former", to make it clear which has the green throat patch. RileyBugz会話投稿記録 22:43, 29 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • The juvenile is similar to the nominate non-breeding adult the subspecies are differentiated by their breeding plumage so the nominate is not needed in this sentence
Done RileyBugz会話投稿記録 23:32, 29 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Oops, seems to have only gotten it in the lead. Done now. RileyBugz会話投稿記録 18:51, 1 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • The black-throated loon has a large range, with breeding taking place across northern Europe, Asia,[1] and the Seward Peninsula[8] I would clarify that the seward pen is in Alaska, as most people wouldn't know this.
Done. RileyBugz会話投稿記録 23:32, 29 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • it can be found to habitate inshore waters habitate as a synonym for inhabit is pretty archaic, obscure and unclear, not in many dictionaries, just use simple English. it can be found in inshore waters , or its habitat is. The same comment applies later when using that word
Got it. RileyBugz会話投稿記録 23:32, 29 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • inshore waters along sheltered coasts, and sometimes those that are inland what is those referring to, waters or coasts?
Clarified. It actually nests inland. RileyBugz会話投稿記録 23:32, 29 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • When it is not breeding, this bird is less social, with typical flocks consisting of about eight individuals,[9] compared to flocks averaging 50 birds for migration. Less social than what? It's breeding sociality is not defined. And migration is not breeding so that comparison is weird.
I suppose that I will remove it, then. RileyBugz会話投稿記録 23:32, 29 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • .1 square kilometres (0.039 sq mi) I would put a zero before the decimal place (the way the conversion template did)
Got it. RileyBugz会話投稿記録 23:32, 29 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • The breeding habitat requirements really should be in the habitat section
Done RileyBugz会話投稿記録 23:32, 29 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Families of black-throated loons usually move their nest from the original nest ponds they inhabited to wetlands nearby after the chicks reach two weeks of age. They inhabited is redundant and I think you mean they move their broods? I doubt they drag old nests around.
I added "site" after nest. Does that make it more clear? RileyBugz会話投稿記録 23:32, 29 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • the female adopts a posture where the neck is shorter and thicker than it would be in a resting state maybe the female hunches her neck?
Done, except I changed "her" to "its" for consistency. RileyBugz会話投稿記録 23:32, 29 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • During copulation, the male, coming ashore, mounts the female, occasionally making flapping sounds. I'd say "occasionally flaps its wings loudly
Good change—immaturity would be on the rise if we let that one stand :P RileyBugz会話投稿記録 23:32, 29 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • with the female spending the most time out of the sexes incubating, again, redundancy - no need for "out of the sexes", its enough to say the female bears more of the responsibility.
I think "out of the sexes" is better, because it could sound like the females spends most of her time incubating. RileyBugz会話投稿記録 23:32, 29 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Nesting success, whether or not at least one chick will hatch from any given nest, is variable, with the rate of success ranging from just under 30% to just over 90% this doesn't make sense. Variable how - from year to year? Geographic area to area? Nesting success is an average, so if there is variation in averages, or more than one average, you must explain what is different about them.
Specified—its year to year. RileyBugz会話投稿記録 23:32, 29 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Some of the adults that lose their clutch early in the incubation period sometimes renest. Redundancy. Some... sometimes. Lose one
Done RileyBugz会話投稿記録 23:32, 29 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • The interval between when the egg is turned is very irregular, ranging from one minute to about six hours. I would introduce egg turning as a concept before talking about its frequency.
Good now? RileyBugz会話投稿記録 23:32, 29 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • with the other dying before seven days after hatching. before after? Make it the other dying within seven days of hatching
Done. RileyBugz会話投稿記録 23:32, 29 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • This is influenced by the density of fish in the breeding lake; a lake more dense with fish will usually reduce the chances that a pair will fledge a chick, even though this loon feeds mainly on fish This needs clarification - why is this so (from memory fish are predators of small chicks?) Also, a lake more dense with fish? Lakes with higher densities of fish or lakes with more fish sounds better.
Done. The explanation(s) (is|are) pretty interesting. The first explanation is that less fish equals more insects, an alternative food source for chicks. The second is that less fish means less pike, a predator of small fish. RileyBugz会話投稿記録 23:32, 29 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • On average, a single pair will usually fledge a chick about 25% of the time per year At the start of this paragraph nesting success was (on average) 30-90%, this new figure falls outside even that huge range.
Yeah. Well, for one, the success rate has to be below 50 no matter what, as only one chick survives. Then, if you say that chick survives about half the time, then you get 25% for the success. RileyBugz会話投稿記録 22:22, 29 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I've double checked the source and the statistic is for just Scottish birds. This is not clear in this article, and it seems that success is highly variable (and for example varies by microhabitat) so to summarise the overall breeding success of the family based on a single study seems way off. Especially when that study is on the extreme of other areas. Sabine's Sunbird talk 06:45, 1 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Ok, I reworded it to make it clear that it is for Scottish birds. RileyBugz会話投稿記録 18:50, 1 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
It should be moved up with the other nesting success info and the discrepancy should be addressed. Sabine's Sunbird talk 19:02, 2 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Moved it up there, and hopefully addressed the discrepancy. RileyBugz会話投稿記録 18:50, 4 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
It's been moved, but the figure quoted still falls outside the other range given. Sabine's Sunbird talk 20:37, 4 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Why does that matter? The range and the number given are for two different things; the range is for whether or not at least one chick will hatch, while the number is for whether or not at least one chick will fledge per pair per year. RileyBugz会話投稿記録 22:21, 4 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • It dives from the surface into the water, How else would it dive?
I reworded to "It dives from the water", to make it clear that it dives from the water, and not from the ground or anything. RileyBugz会話投稿記録 22:39, 29 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Most dives are successful, there must be some numbers to back up this statement
Added them. RileyBugz会話投稿記録 23:34, 29 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, more to follow but that's plenty to be getting on with. Sabine's Sunbird talk 20:15, 29 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]
@Sabine's Sunbird: J'ai fini! RileyBugz会話投稿記録 16:46, 30 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Some more thoughts:

  • The lead seems very long. Could it be summaries a bit more?
I don't really think I could. Is there anything specific you think I should try and cut down on? RileyBugz会話投稿記録 15:56, 1 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Examples in the lead could be:
Habitat (lakes ) mentioned twice
This loon was first described by Carl Linnaeus in the 10th edition of his Systema Naturae. This loon was described by Carl Linnaeus in 1758.
Everything from It was previously considered to be the same species as the could be condensed down to the black-throated loon was found to be sister to a clade consisting of the Pacific loon, common loon and yellow-billed loon.
The timing of this is variable; in the southern part of its range, this loon starts breeding in April, whereas in the northern portion, it waits until after the spring thaw. It breeds in spring.
  • It just needs a cut down in words as it is supposed to be a short summary. The actual detail isn't being lost. Sabine's Sunbird talk 18:31, 1 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Did the first and second. I didn't do the third as the traditional representation is still supported by some evidence, so it would violate NPOV to condense it to that. I also didn't do the fourth, as "spring" would be incorrect for those reading in the southern hemisphere. I also condensed some other parts of the lead a bit. RileyBugz会話投稿記録 19:01, 1 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • In description, the text refers to The nominate subspecies in its alternate plumage has a grey head and hindneck, but the caption talks about breeding plumage. I'd be consisten about which you use as the primary term, but also introduce both in the first instance (especially as alternate plumage is kind of jargonish.
Switched to breeding plumage. RileyBugz会話投稿記録 15:56, 1 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • he non-breeding adult differs from if you mention alternate plumage above, use the technical term (basic plumage) here too. Sabine's Sunbird talk 06:45, 1 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I just will use the non-technical term. RileyBugz会話投稿記録 15:56, 1 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
@Sabine's Sunbird: I seem to be done now. Thanks for the review! RileyBugz会話投稿記録 16:26, 2 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Distribution and habitat Could you provide some specifics about the wintering distribution? For example the map suggests it winters off Japan, Bay of Biscay, Caspian Sea, Black Sea, the Med, so this is worth mentioning?
I suppose I'll include some examples. RileyBugz会話投稿記録 18:42, 4 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • The black-throated loon usually forages by itself or in pairs, rarely feeding in groups with multiple species. Do we know which species? Sadly, BNA was no help (I had a look).
Source doesn't say. RileyBugz会話投稿記録 18:42, 4 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Mammalian predators are likely the cause of about 40% of clutch losses. Again, do we know the species? Sabine's Sunbird talk 05:55, 4 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Same thing as above. RileyBugz会話投稿記録 18:42, 4 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Will include that then. Thanks RileyBugz会話投稿記録 22:21, 4 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Coments from FunkMonk[edit]

  • I'll review this soon. FunkMonk (talk) 11:41, 2 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • There seems to be images on Commons that show the bird better than the taxobox image:[2][3] This image may also be interesting because it shows the wings:[4] This photo is interesting because it shows winter plumage:[5] This image shows it running on water, which I definitely think should be included:[6] FunkMonk (talk) 11:41, 2 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Ok. I don't know about the last one, as the loon running on water is never mentioned. Also, its on flikr, and I don't know how to port it over to commons. I also found this video that shows it foraging, which I will put in the feeding section. RileyBugz会話投稿記録 15:09, 2 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Seems like an oversight that the running on water thing isn't mentioned in the article then, a quick Google search indicates this is a feature common to loons in general. Images are easy to transfer to Commons with this[7], but I can do it for you. FunkMonk (talk) 16:54, 2 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I couldn't find any reference to it searching through on Google Scholar, and if its common to all loons, then it should be in the loon article, not here, unless there is a detailed description of it and how this behaviour differs between it and other loons. RileyBugz会話投稿記録 18:07, 2 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
This article itself already states it, just in other words: "it waits until the spring thaw,[3] when there is adequate water for it to take off in." Anyhow, here are some other sources specifically about this species that mention it needs a long "runway" or "take off" to get airborne.[8][9] And here's a source stating it for loons in general:[10] I'm not buying this should only be mentioned if it differs from other loons (do you only mention species of fish this species eats that others don't?), but whether you add this or not, the image could be included, as we have now demonstrated this is indeed part of the behaviour of this bird. FunkMonk (talk) 18:30, 2 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Ok, I'll add it, since there are differences between it and other species. I would like to take your offer to do it for me—thank you very much. RileyBugz会話投稿記録 18:45, 2 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Here you go:[11] FunkMonk (talk) 19:19, 2 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Added. Thanks! RileyBugz会話投稿記録 19:28, 2 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • The intro seems overly long and detailed compared to the length of the article body. See[12]
I will try and trim it down a bit more. RileyBugz会話投稿記録 15:11, 2 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Seems the range map could need a source on Commons. And why use the binomial in the caption?
Changed the binomial to the common name in the range map caption. RileyBugz会話投稿記録 18:49, 2 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • "It was previously considered conspecific with the North American Pacific loon, but they have now been split into two species" Give a date for when this changed. And on what grounds?
I couldn't find why, but I could find when and by who. I will include that. RileyBugz会話投稿記録 19:13, 2 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • When was it moved to Gavia, and by who?
Done. RileyBugz会話投稿記録 20:03, 2 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • " It was previously considered conspecific with the North American Pacific loon" As a subspecies?
Done. RileyBugz会話投稿記録 19:13, 2 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • "It was previously considered conspecific with the North American Pacific loon, but they have now been split into two species." This sentence is out of place where it is now, beteen a sentence about it's naming, and the meaning of said name.
Moved. RileyBugz会話投稿記録 19:13, 2 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • "stems from the place of this bird in the loon family" Not sure what this means. If you're just saying it's called a loon because it's a loon, then it is pretty redundant.
Removed. RileyBugz会話投稿記録 18:31, 2 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Subjects of photos should preferrable face towards the text, not away form it, as you now have it in the description section.
Done. RileyBugz会話投稿記録 19:15, 2 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Give the etymology of G. a. viridigularis.
Done. RileyBugz会話投稿記録 18:31, 2 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
@FunkMonk: I'm done! Thanks for the review! RileyBugz会話投稿記録 16:42, 3 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
More below. FunkMonk (talk) 20:41, 3 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • "within about 1 metre (3.3 ft) of the lake is breeds at,[13]This loon" It breeds at? And there seems to be a punctuation problem.
Fixed. RileyBugz会話投稿記録 21:33, 3 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • "are more dense when there are not many fish" Less fish would sound better.
Done. RileyBugz会話投稿記録 21:33, 3 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • "this bird breeds in is a possible threat to this species." The species would sound better, since you already say "this bird".
Done RileyBugz会話投稿記録
  • I'm not sure why the predators/parasites section is under status. These threats are natural, whereas status sections are usually about unnatural threats.
Moved. RileyBugz会話投稿記録 21:33, 3 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • "This loon is sensitive windfarms near the coast." Sensitive to?
Fixed. RileyBugz会話投稿記録 21:33, 3 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The black-throated loon usually forages by itself or in pairs, and rarely feeding in groups with multiple species." Seems this should be "feeds".
I'll remove the "and" which should make it grammatically correct. RileyBugz会話投稿記録 21:33, 3 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • "These dives only usually result in small food items" Usually only?
Done RileyBugz会話投稿記録 21:33, 3 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • "those that are successful are usually shorter than those that are unsuccessful, with an average of 17 seconds for each successful dive, and 27 seconds for each unsuccessful dive" and "those that are more profitable are usually more than 40 seconds" seem to contradict each other?
I will reword it to clarify this. RileyBugz会話投稿記録 21:33, 3 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • "feeds away from the nest, foraging either at the end of the breeding lake away from the nest" Say "opposite end" instead of repeating the same words.
Done RileyBugz会話投稿記録 21:33, 3 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The young are also able to capture food themselves before at least 36 days after hatching" What's the point of the "before"?
Removed. RileyBugz会話投稿記録 21:33, 3 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • "chicks are brought up on mainly on" Something wrong.
Fixed. RileyBugz会話投稿記録 21:33, 3 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • "they are still fed, and in large numbers, invertebrates." Why not just "fed invertebrates in large numbers? The present wording seems unnecessarily complicated.
Done. RileyBugz会話投稿記録 21:33, 3 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • I think it would be a good idea to submit articles for GAN before FAC in the future (like most of us do); there are a few too many errors in wording that should have been weeded out before FAC. FunkMonk (talk) 20:41, 3 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
@Funkmonk: And I'm done. RileyBugz会話投稿記録 21:33, 3 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Correct ping:@FunkMonk:. RileyBugz会話投稿記録 21:34, 3 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support - everything looks nice now, but the article could have been sent to the copy-editors before nomination. FunkMonk (talk) 11:21, 4 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Source review from Ealdgyth[edit]

Removed it (and changed the wording to follow) RileyBugz会話投稿記録 18:23, 4 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • I randomly googled three sentences and nothing showed up except mirrors. Earwig's tool shows no copyright violations.
Otherwise everything looks good. Ealdgyth - Talk 14:37, 4 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Comments Support from Cas Liber[edit]

Taking a look now...

  • The article does not explain why the species was split from the Pacific loon.
I could not, unfortunately, find why. RileyBugz会話投稿記録 13:03, 7 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
I'll take a look tomorrow. gotta sleep now...Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 14:34, 7 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
So, this bases its decision on Kistchinski, 1978, Birds of the Koryak Highlands, pp. 24-27...except the goddamn book is only in Russian...still looking. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 14:41, 8 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
this 1975 paper is important as it shows that there are differences in the anatomy of air sacs between arctica and pacifica and the author (Kadosaki) proposed they were likely separate species. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 14:45, 8 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Ok, it's mentioned on page 6 of Sprengelmeyer. So added now. Still I think the other material is important to add - I'd do it but I need to sleep! Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 14:54, 8 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
How did you the books that it said it was based on?! I looked for those, but I couldn't find them at all. Really good job there. RileyBugz会話投稿記録 15:04, 8 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Might want to specify how green the throat patch of subspecies viridigularis is.
The source doesn't specify. RileyBugz会話投稿記録 13:03, 7 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
This and this article add some background and should be included. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 14:48, 8 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Done. I also added a bit to the taxonomy section with that information. RileyBugz会話投稿記録 15:25, 8 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • ...it waits until the spring thaw - which is ....when?
When the lakes thaw. This is an event that varies in time, it seems. RileyBugz会話投稿記録 13:03, 7 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Alright Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 04:53, 9 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • link pelagic, acidification and possibly heavy-metal pollution.
Linked all three. RileyBugz会話投稿記録 13:03, 7 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Otherwise looks in good shape and on target for FA-hood. Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 03:42, 7 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@Casliber: Done. RileyBugz会話投稿記録 13:03, 7 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Ceranthor[edit]

  • It has two subspecies including the nominate. - What's a nominate? Can you link or explain? If it's the same as the later link, it should be linked at its first mention
Done RileyBugz会話投稿記録 10:54, 8 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Likewise, clade should probably be linked or briefly explained; same in taxonomy section
Done RileyBugz会話投稿記録 10:54, 8 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • When it is not breeding, the black patch on the throat is absent, replaced with white, in addition to most of the black lines on the throat, except those on the bottom sides. - Second half of this sentence is unclear... are the black lines on the throat missing? Are they also replaced with white? Be more precise
Done. RileyBugz会話投稿記録 10:54, 8 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • The genus name Gavia comes from the Latin for "sea mew", as used by ancient Roman naturalist Pliny the Elder.[4] - I think there should be an article "the" before ancient
Done. RileyBugz会話投稿記録 10:54, 8 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Whether or not there is at least one chick fledged is influenced by the density of fish in the breeding lake - Is it necessary to link fish?
I suppose not. RileyBugz会話投稿記録 10:54, 8 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Acidification and heavy-metal pollution of the body of water this species breeds in is a possible threat to it - very clunky arrangement to this sentence; would probably be helped by avoiding the passive voice here
Done. RileyBugz会話投稿記録 10:54, 8 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
  • Sources look good to me.
  • On Chrome, the image of the loon with its chick in feeding is creeping into the next section - it might help to move it up a bit within the text, though that might just be a Chrome issue.
I don't know, but I'd prefer not to move it up, as that would mean moving the video up, which would not look too good, as you would have the header, then the video, and then the text next to the video and to the right of the header. RileyBugz会話投稿記録 10:54, 8 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The article's in great shape, so I'll be happy to support once my issues are fixed. ceranthor 03:01, 8 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@Ceranthor: Done! Thanks for the review! RileyBugz会話投稿記録 10:55, 8 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Support ceranthor 12:18, 8 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

  • Support from Jim I fixed an obvious typo. You might want to link "iris/irides" and with regard to there was no evidence of the two interbreeding in areas where they occurred together, perhaps you could clarify where that occurs? Otherwise, good stuff Jimfbleak - talk to me? 07:38, 12 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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