Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Bonshō/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

Bonshō[edit]

The article was promoted by Ian Rose 12:56, October 8, 2014‎ [1].


Nominator(s): Yunshui 雲水 07:58, 2 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

This article is about Japanese temple bells. I've been working on it on and off for a while now, and have finally decided to see whether it can be pushed to FA status. I've not had anything much to do with FA before now, so would appreciate any and all assistance and suggestions. Yunshui 雲水 07:58, 2 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

  • Quick comment (I hope to review this at a later date): Jigoku is a dab link. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 14:47, 2 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
That was sort of intentional (since the only place we have an entry on Jigoku meaning "Hell" is at that dab page). However, since it's piped anyway, I don't see that it matters if I change the target to Diyu instead, which I've now done. Cheers, look forward to your review. Yunshui 雲水 14:50, 2 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Thanks. I'll try and finish the cancer article first, then come here. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 15:09, 2 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Image review (if I don't mention an image, it's fine).
    • File:Chikanobu The Giant Bell.jpg - Needs a Japanese PD tag.
    • File:Hokoji-BellDetail-M1767.jpg - When was this bell created, and by who? When did the creator die? Japan only allows non-commercial FOP for "artistic works" (and these bells would certainly fit that definition) so we need to be sure of the copyright of the bell. File:RyoanJi-Kane.jpg this too.
    • File:Japanese Peace Bell cropped.PNG - 1952 installation... is there a copyright notice? There's no FOP in the US for non-architectural works, and assuming the structure is past the threshold of originality (arguable, perhaps, but to be safe let's assume it is) we'd need to know if there was a copyright notice before we could claim this is free to photograph. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 15:01, 3 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Do you know, it hadn't even occurred to me that pictures of bells would fall under the same provisos as pictures of sculptures - but you're absolutely right, of course. I've added a {{PD-Japan}} to the Chikanobu image, so that's dealt with. The Hokoji inscription dates to the seventeenth century (see the accompanying article text and source) so shouldn't be an issue; I've added a {{PD-art-3d}} tag to it.
The Ryoanji bell was (I believe) cast as part of the temple's 500th anniversary celebrations, which would have been in 1950, so I'm guessing that it isn't public domain (how it managed to get to be Picture of the Day without anyone picking up on this is beyond me). I'm uncertain what would constitute appropriate tagging in this case; I've considered {{Non-free 3D art}} but I'm not sure that the picture's use in this article meets the strictest interpretation of the fair use requirements. Suggestions on the best course of action would be welcomed!
I think I'll remove the Peace Bell image altogether; I've never been very happy with it. Yunshui 雲水 07:12, 4 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Not a clue. I had a good look around this morning, but none of the Japanese bell-making companies I'm aware of seem to have taken the credit. Yunshui 雲水 07:30, 4 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Mind you, there are a number of other images of bonsho available on Commons - I don't have time right now, but when I do I'll see what alternatives are available. The Ryoanji image is probably the best-quality one, but there are others that would suffice to illustrate the article. Yunshui 雲水 07:34, 4 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I'm must say, it's a pleasure to have a reviewer who knows their stuff with regards to image copyright... I've run several searches through the U.S. Copyright Office and am now fairly convinced that there is, as you say, no registered U.S. copyright. I'll therefore follow your suggestion above and add {{Not-PD-US-URAA}} and {{PD-Japan}} to the image file.
  • Prose comments
    • "Bonshō 梵鐘 (Buddhist bells)," why not Bonshō (Japanese: 梵鐘, Buddhist bells). The later one can be tsurigane (釣り鐘, hanging bells) and ōgane (大鐘, great bells), and so on. I mean, the shift from the standard text to the Latin script in Japanese unicode is pretty jarring. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 15:48, 4 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
    • bosses - I'd link this
    • In modern times, they have become symbols of World Peace. - this could be read as the previously mentioned bells and not the bonsho in general
    • sixth century CE - lead has the earliest at "around 700 c.e." meaning at least a hundred years difference.
    • The bonshō is believed to have been derived from the bianzhong ... this bell would eventually develop into the bonshō. - These two clauses are slightly contradictory: the first offers a likelihood, whereas the second offers a certainty
    • 1050 °C - Fahrenheit?
    • sutras - link recommended
    • World Peace Bell Association - worth a redlink?
    • The use of Japanese temple bells in such works has been seen as an attempt to replace the now-common sound of the orchestral tam-tam. - by whom?
    • A bronze bonshō was among the gifts presented to Commodore Matthew Perry upon his arrival in Japan. - can this be merged somewhere? I mean, single sentence paragraphs look rough. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 15:47, 4 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I think I've now addressed all of the points above (in this edit, for ease of review). Yunshui 雲水 07:14, 5 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • What about the nihongo templates in the body of the text? Do you prefer having the different font, or...? Everything else looks good. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 08:18, 5 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Oops. I've now reformatted all of the nihongo templates with English translation text attached. Yunshui 雲水 12:40, 5 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Alright, looking good now. I've cleaned up the image pages. If you'd just be so kind to add an information template to Hokoji, I'm ready to support. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 13:20, 5 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Thought I had - but apparently not. This editing in fits and starts doesn't suit me... Done now. Yunshui 雲水 17:54, 5 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • I didn't find it. I meant this. Anyways, without being a subject expert I can't comment on comprehensiveness, other than to say that I found this very informational. In terms of images and prose quality, I support this nomination. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 00:30, 6 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Ah, gotcha. Thanks very much for the support, but more importantly, for the critique. Yunshui 雲水 10:18, 8 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Source review - spotchecks not done

  • Accessdates aren't needed for GBooks links
  • FN3, 33: most refs don't include location
  • Be consistent in whether authors are presented first or last name first
  • FN8: title given doesn't match that in the link, can you verify?
  • Be consistent in whether book titles use sentence or title case
  • FN18: why the additional quote marks in the title?
  • FN25: URL can be truncated after page number
  • FN25: are we missing part of the journal title here?
  • FN36: what is the title and author of the specific article being cited from LIFE?
  • FN37 returns error message. Nikkimaria (talk) 20:24, 6 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the review. I think I've now addressed all of the above to the best of my ability. Yunshui 雲水 10:18, 8 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Nice work. Looks like FN32 still has a location attached, and for FN36 the publisher is not the author (it's okay to omit the parameter if no author is listed). Nikkimaria (talk) 05:07, 23 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
@Nikkimaria: Thanks - both of the above now sorted. Yunshui 雲水 08:05, 23 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Eric Corbett This is a very nice article, but there are just a few things I think need to be addressed before I'd feel comfortable supporting its promotion.

  • Lead
  • The image caption in the lead tells us that there's a shu-moku in the background, yet it's not until the Construction section that we're told what a shu-moku is. What about something like "... or a beam suspended on ropes, known as a shu-moku"?
  • Origin
  • "Bronze bells have been found in numerous archeological sites in Japan". The article seems generally to be using BR English spelling, so ought not this to be "archaeological"? Similarly, shouldn't "mold" be "mould"?
  • "One larger additional bell, which eventually developed into the bonshō, was used as a tuning device and a summons to listeners to attend the performance." The performance of what? A concert?
  • Sound
  • "... a difference of a single Hertz can require that the bell be recast from scratch." A difference between what and what?
  • Notable examples
  • "The bell of the Nishi-Arai Daishi Temple in Tokyo was scrapped as part of the Japanese war effort in 1943, but remained unused until the end of the war. The crew of the USS Pasadena found the bell and took it back to the USA as a war trophy, donating it to the city of Pasadena." This seems a bit muddled to me. In what sense was it unused until after the end of the war? And how could the crew of the USS Pasadena have taken it back to the USA when it had never been there in the first place?
@Eric Corbett: Immense thanks, Eric. I think this edit deals with your concerns, but do let me know if there's anything else. (And my somewhat humiliated gratitude for pulling me up on the mould/mold thing - eugh, what was I thinking!) Yunshui 雲水 08:50, 29 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Curly Turkey[edit]

  • but can be adjusted to alter the tone of the end product: are there any examples of why this would be done, or how common it would be?
No examples, that I've found, but I've realised I wasn't really true to the source here; having re-read it, I've changed the wording to better reflect what the source actually says.
  • The casting of a large bell is a risky process: I'm not sure how appropriate the word "risky" is here—how dire are the consequences of a bell failing?
Probably not too risky nowadays (I don't imagine anyone commits seppuku over a failed bell), so I've changed the wording.
  • Often decorated with a [[Padma (attribute)|lotus]] motif.: that's an EGG—readers would assume it's pointing to the flower
Good point, changed the wording accordingly.
  • regarded as contributing to the bell's overall beauty: is this related to any of the principles of Japanese aesthetics that can be linked to?
Wabi-sabi is linked in the next sentence - since that's the specific aspect of Japanese aesthetics that the casting lines are supposed to relate to, I don't see the need to pipe it in here.
  • Finally comes the kūdi error: {{nihongo}}: Japanese or romaji text required (help) or decay: but "下る" reads kudaru (and di is simply un-Japanese). I can't find any of these three words in the ja.wp article, so I don't know what the correct word would be
I clearly misheard it on the radio programme used as the source - having listened again, it's okuri 送り. Updated to the correct term.
If you're getting these terms from an audio source, then where are you getting the kanji? The more Japanese I've learned, the less confident I've become that I could simply guess the kanji, especially for specialized terms. Curly Turkey ⚞¡gobble!⚟ 23:56, 29 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
In this particular case, a good kanji dictionary and - I confess - a bit of educated guesswork. I'd prefer a native speaker to take a look, but I've asked in the past with no success. I'll take it out if you're unhappy with it, it just irks me to have one Japanese term without kanji when I've managed to locate translations for all the others.
Actually, I have now taken it out - after a bit more research, I'm now unsure whether it should be this kanji or not.
This would apply to the other two terms, too, though, wouldn't it? Maybe jsut ditch the kanji until you can be sure? One more thing: dao-on is almost certainly incorrect (I'm surprised I didn't notice it earlier). Searching around, it appears the kanji is pronounced both as tō-on and tō-ne, but I don't know which is correct in the context of bonshō. Curly Turkey ⚞¡gobble!⚟ 07:41, 30 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
[www.eikando.or.jp/Bonsho.pdf This] pdf puts them all in katakana, though I can't imagine why. Both that one and this use atari instead of dao-on or ŧo-on, and it looks like a number of other sources do too. I don't have the time right now (I'm on my way out the door), but I'll see if I can sort it out tomorrow. Curly Turkey ⚞¡gobble!⚟ 07:52, 30 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I'll give you the information and source here and you can fit it into the article as you like. This is all fom page 32 of the source:
Source: {{cite journal |last1=Onozuka |first1=Masakazu |title=Tsurikane no O-hanashi |trans_title=About Tsurikane |journal=IHI Gihō = Journal of IHI Technologies |date=2012 |volume=52 |issue=3 |pages=32–35 |url=http://www.ihi.co.jp/var/ezwebin_site/storage/original/application/d19e6c36aac51b32247eb17d844a3506.pdf |format=PDF |language=Japanese |accessdate=1 October 2014}}
A bell's tonal quality is judged on three aspects. The atari is the sound at impact, and a pure, clear sound is favoured. The oshi is a higher-pitched, harmonically complex sorrowful rumbling that lasts up to ten seconds; the sound undulates in volume as higher- and lower-pitched waves come in and out of synch with each other. The following okuri is a single decaying tone that lasts for as long as a minute until reverberation ceases.
There were almost certainly kanji for these words, but the sources I've come across don't use them—I have no idea why, since they use kanji for everything else. Curly Turkey ⚞¡gobble!⚟ 00:09, 1 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
On the same page I got this info as well (my summary, not a translation):
The earliest bonshō came from China via the Korean Peninsula. According to legend in the Nihon Shoki, Ōtomo no Satehiko brought three bronze bells back to Japan in 562 as spoils of war from Goguryeo (one of the ancient Three Kingdoms of Korea).
Curly Turkey ⚞¡gobble!⚟ 00:26, 1 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
You hero, that's an awesome new source. I've added information about the possible Korean origin, and expanded the section on the bells' sound to incorporate the new information. Thanks so much! Yunshui 雲水 07:36, 1 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I think there's been a misunderstanding—the bell is definitely of Chinese origin, but much Chinese culture (including the bell) arrived in Japan by way of Korea, rather than directly from China. That "much earlier Chinese or Korean origin" should still read only "much earlier Chinese origin", and "The bell design itself has even earlier Korean origins" should be dropped.
The rest of that PDF is mostly scientific analysis of the sounds of particular bells and thus far to narrow to have anything else worth including in the article, but if you scroll through it, you'll see a nice labelled diagram of a bell. It'd be nice if some graphics-oriented person were able to make a version of it to include in the article. Curly Turkey ⚞¡gobble!⚟ 10:52, 1 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
This is what happens when I edit decaffinated... I somehow misread your wording above as "... came to China ...", I think. Fixed; I should just have used your text in the first place. Yunshui 雲水 11:00, 1 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Still not quite with The earliest bonshō came from China to Japan via the Korean Peninsula.: this is according to the Nihon Shoki; it may not be true. Curly Turkey ⚞¡gobble!⚟ 11:09, 1 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Better? Yunshui 雲水 12:00, 1 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Better, though "According to legend" makes "may have" redundant.
I've been mulling this over, and I question whether the word baion should be used. In the Japanese sources I've been going through, the word seems to be used exclusively in its dictionary defintion as "overtones" or "harmonics", and doesn't appear to have a bell-specific nuance at all. I realize the English sources use the word, and we're supposed to follow the sources, but I find this an obnoxious tendency—using generic Japanese terms when there are perfectly good English translations of those terms. Think of mangaka—in Japanese, the word is used to refer to all of Osamu Tezuka, Hergé, and Charles Shulz. The word simply means "cartoonist" in a very broad sense, and it's only in its English misapporpriation that the term takes on nuances that aren't there in the original. The Japanese don't use baion to mean anything bell-specific, but the article seems to imply it is. If there's evidence that baion has entered the English lexicon as a bell-specific term, then I guess there's no choice but to use it, but in the absence of that evidence, I'd drop the term entirely: I'd change "There are also continuous harmonic overtones called baion error: {{nihongo}}: Japanese or romaji text required (help) heard throughout" to "There are also continuous harmonic overtones heard throughout". Curly Turkey ⚞¡gobble!⚟ 22:48, 1 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
That's hardly unreasonable. I concur with your logic; I've taken it out. Yunshui 雲水 06:57, 2 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • There are also continuous harmonic overtones called baion error: {{nihongo}}: Japanese or romaji text required (help) heard throughout the tolling of the bell. A single bell can produce multiple tones simultaneously, creating a complex pitch profile.: these are referring to the same thing, aren't they? The "multiple tones" are the harmonic overtones, aren't they? They way it's worded, it appears to describe two separate phenomena.
Rephrased to connect the two sentences and make it clear that there's only one phenomenom under discussion.
  • twenty miles away on a clear day: no conversion? Earlier in the article, SI measurements were given before Imperial.
Missed that when I was filling in conversion templates (probably because it's in text). Now amended.
  • and a difference of a single Hertz can require that the bell be recast from scratch: is this different from the bells "failing" as described earlier?
I think the rephrase of the earlier sentence shoudl have clarified this now.
  • to call the monks to services: as opposed to "to service"?
Linked and rephrased.
  • which could carry for miles: or "great distances", for the Imperial-impaired?
Ooh, yes; I like that much better.
  • the 108 Buddhist sins: nothing good to link to here?
Not really, but it should be "temptations" rather than sins; there's a little bit on it in the 108 article, which I've linked to.
  • another bonshō, called an okurikane: this is okurikane and not okurigane? Sources giving the pronunciation seem scarce, but the latter seems more likely. This source uses the latter. These results are not particularly helpful.
Again, misheard the radio programme (although in fairness, "ka" and "ga" are damn near interchangable in Japanese). Changes to "ka".
Well, the "interchangeability" is really only one way, but yeah, the meaning wouldn't change here. Curly Turkey ⚞¡gobble!⚟ 23:56, 29 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • to be placed around the world as symbols of peace. Peace bells have been placed at a number of locations around the world.: seems redundant
It is rather. Tautological statement removed.
  • which was cast in 698 CE ... which was commissioned in 732 CE: Many of those "CE"s could be dropped, especially later in the article, as we know all the Japanese dates are in the Common Era.
Good point, once the Origin section established that the earliest bells date from the sixth century CE the rest of the dates can be supposed to be CE unless otherwise stated. Removed the extraneous ones.
  • The Hōkō-ji stuff could use a better explanation—who was Hideyoshi, what was Ieyasu's relation to him? Also, the way it's worded, it sounds like Hideyoshi had the bell cast while Ieyasu was Shōgun (!!!)
To be honest, I'd prefer to leave these as links - I don't want to overburden a small section of the article with excessive detail about stuff that's explained elsewhere. I therefore haven't made changes here. (And yes, Hideyori (not Hideyoshi!) did indeed have the bell cast during the early Tokugawa shogunate, so that bit's intentional.)
Arrgh!—I hate how all these old Japanese names are so similar—I can never keep all those Ashikagas or whatever straight. I still think this lacks sufficient context, though, and simply clicking through won't quickly give a satisfactory answer. I'm thinking something along the lines of—
In 1610 Toyotomi Hideyori sponsored the reconstruction of Hōkō-ji temple after it burned down, and commissioned a large bell as part of it. The bell's inscription drew the ire of Tokugawa Ieyasu, who had become shogun after wresting power from the Toyotomi clan after the death of Hideyori's father Hideyoshi. The kanji characters in the inscription "Kokka ankō" error: {{nihongo}}: Japanese or romaji text required (help) ("Peace and tranquility for the nation") separated the characters for Ieyasu's given name (error: {{nihongo}}: Japanese or romaji text required (help)) with the character for "peace" (error: {{nihongo}}: Japanese or romaji text required (help)). Ieyasu assumed this to imply that Hideyori believed peace would require the "dismemberment" of the Tokugawa, and used the dispute as a pretense to wage war on the Toyotomi clan, resulting in the Siege of Osaka and destruction of the Toyotomi.
This is 11 words longer than what's there now, which I don't think is overboard, and could probably be tightened somewhere if you still thought it too long. (I wouldn't fight for the change from "fall" to "destruction", but, seriously, they flattened the castle, beheaded an eight-year-old, forced Hideyori to commit seppuku, and disbanded the clan—I don't think the word's too strong). Curly Turkey ⚞¡gobble!⚟ 23:56, 29 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Well, if you're going to do a thing, best not do it by halves... I like "destruction" better too. Having seen your version above, I realise that it doesn't need to be too wordy, so I've added an extra sentence about the death of Hidelyoshi and changed a few other bits in the paragraph to make it flow better. Yunshui 雲水 07:22, 30 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Is there not a photo out there that clearly shows that "battering ram" they ring the bell with? A video that clearly shows it would be nice, too—in the video that's in the article, you really can't see it. It looks almost as if the bell rang itself. Curly Turkey ⚞¡gobble!⚟
Trust me, I've looked and then some. I'm fairly confident in saying that the images and video in the article are the best that are available, at least for Wikipedia's use.
@Curly Turkey: Many thanks for such a thorough review, see this edit if you want to check exactly what I've done in response. Yunshui 雲水 09:29, 29 September 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Just a few last nits:
  • a "homonym" is a word that is not only spelt the same but sounds the same as another, is it not? I think the correct word would by "homograph", but I'd avoid vocab like that if possible and just say that they were written with the same characters.
  • Since we know the year Hideyori commissioned the bell (1610) I think it would be best to mention it.
  • should be a multi-tonal rumble: "multi-tonal" sounds almost like it's a chord, rather than overtones; and I'm pretty sure the article says it is harmonically rich rather than should be—it's the going-in-and-out-of-synch of the overtones that causes the volume to alternately swell and decrease
  • lasts for about ten seconds: actually, the source says it lasts from "a few" ("数秒") to ten seconds; I think "up to ten seconds" would be better
  • Have you seen File:Miidera-no-bansho-M2075.jpg? It shows the battering-ram thingy a lot more clearly than the images currently in the article.
Curly Turkey ⚞¡gobble!⚟ 23:47, 2 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Just a few last nits:
  • a "homonym" is a word that is not only spelt the same but sounds the same as another, is it not? I think the correct word would by "homograph", but I'd avoid vocab like that if possible and just say that they were written with the same characters.
  • Since we know the year Hideyori commissioned the bell (1610) I think it would be best to mention it.
  • should be a multi-tonal rumble: "multi-tonal" sounds almost like it's a chord, rather than overtones; and I'm pretty sure the article says it is harmonically rich rather than should be—it's the going-in-and-out-of-synch of the overtones that causes the volume to alternately swell and decrease
  • lasts for about ten seconds: actually, the source says it lasts from "a few" ("数秒") to ten seconds; I think "up to ten seconds" would be better
  • Have you seen File:Miidera-no-bansho-M2075.jpg? It shows the battering-ram thingy a lot more clearly than the images currently in the article.
Curly Turkey ⚞¡gobble!⚟ 03:17, 4 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
All those changes to the text make sense to me and I've implemented them. I'm a little loathe to add the Miidera image based on the discussion with Crisco above; whilst the bell certainly looks old enough to be PD in Japan, I can't find any evidence of the actual date of it's casting. It's definitely not the Benkei bell (which would certainly be PD). Yunshui 雲水 08:30, 7 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Well, that sucks about the image. Perhaps you could get someone to take something better (and PD) if you put in a request at WikiProject Japan. Anyways, I'm ready to support. Curly Turkey ⚞¡gobble!⚟ 08:58, 7 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Much obliged - thanks for all your work on this. Yunshui 雲水 10:17, 7 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Support. Everything now looks fine to me. Eric Corbett 20:14, 1 October 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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