Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Craig Bellamy/archive1

Add links
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was archived by Hog Farm via FACBot (talk) 24 November 2021 [1].

Craig Bellamy[edit]

Nominator(s): Kosack (talk) 09:06, 2 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

This article is about possibly one of the most polarising figures in modern British football, Craig Bellamy. A former captain of both the Welsh national side and Great Britain Olympic squad, he spent more than a decade in the Premier League with numerous teams. A managers' worst nightmare on occasion, his career has been blighted by injury and endless controversy. As usual, I look forward to any comments. Kosack (talk) 09:06, 2 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Quick comments[edit]

Nobody outside of Britain knows what "gobbiest" means, I reckon. Also, there's absolutely nothing about his playing style in the lede. The Style of play section too, has only a perfunctory mention of his "quick, bursting technique and calmness under pressure" before an extended managerial back-and-forth about whether he had a bad attitude or not. There's needs to be more on his stocky stature, finishing ability, the positions he played etc. I haven't read most of the article but some of this stuff must be in the lede and in Style of play.—indopug (talk) 11:01, 3 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Hi @Indopug:, thanks for taking a look. In regards to the gobbiest quote, Robson is one of the most noted British managers of the last 40 years, so his quote is more than suitable I would suggest and would be commonplace in WP:BRITENG. The style of play features more than you seem to imply I would say, several of the quotes mention his intensity and commitment on the pitch which was a key factor in his style of play. I've expanded further to provide more though as well. In regards to this being in the lede, this not a common thing in football articles, see FAs such as Thierry Henry, Steve Bruce, Kevin Beattie, etc. The lede is generally used as a summary of the player's life and career. Kosack (talk) 12:30, 3 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for providing those examples. Thierry_Henry#Style_of_play is actually exactly what I had mind with my comments above. Some things that impressed me in that article's section:
  • what position Henry played in and how it changed over time
  • the kind of goals he would score and the techniques he used for scoring
  • who his heroes were and how they inspired his play
  • other aspects of play like heading, passing and set pieces
Also, while Henry has one quote per paragraph, mainly to give flavour to the text, Bellamy's section has a quote in nearly every sentence, overwhelming the text.—indopug (talk) 16:10, 3 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
While it's unlikely I'll be able to get into Henry's level of detail due to the sheer amount of coverage he has, I've added an extra paragraph from a few sources I dug up. I've also trimmed the number and length of quotes that are included as well. Kosack (talk) 18:45, 3 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Support from WA8MTWAYC[edit]

  • Ref 3 in the lede is not needed
  • "was born on 19 July 1979 at" ==> the infobox and lede say 13 July
  • Pentwyn Dynamos has a wiki page
  • "2–2 home draw with Bury" ==> you could link draw here
  • "leading goalscorers in the division" ==> was this division the First Division?
  • "assisted Wayne Quinn" ==> you could link assisted
  • "Goal of the Month for September 2009" ==> Goal of the Month has a page
  • "In 2007, Bellamy was invited to visit Sierra Leone" ==> by whom?
  • I'd move ref 216 to the end of the sentence
  • I'd also reorder the honours by chronological order, so e.g. the Community Shield comes first under Liverpool (but I don't know if there are any rules about this...). WA8MTWAYC (talk) 15:48, 10 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@WA8MTWAYC: Thanks very much for taking a look, I've implemented all of the changes noted above. Kosack (talk) 12:14, 14 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I read Bellamy left Anderlecht last weekend and Kompany was quite emotional about it. I hope everything will be alright. Nevertheless, this is a great article, well done. I support. WA8MTWAYC (talk) 14:40, 14 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Coordinator comment[edit]

This has hit the three week mark with limited indications that a consensus to promote is forming. Unless this changes over the next 2 or 3 days, I am afraid that this nomination may be archived. Gog the Mild (talk) 21:23, 23 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Image review[edit]

  • Suggest adding alt text
  • Don't use fixed px size. Nikkimaria (talk) 22:23, 23 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Kosack ? Gog the Mild (talk) 14:39, 25 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry, this is done as well. Forgot to mention. Kosack (talk) 16:07, 25 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
It looks like there is still an instance of fixed px size - this should be replaced with |upright=. Nikkimaria (talk) 20:54, 25 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Kosack, could you fix this? Gog the Mild (talk) 14:40, 18 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Comments Support by Z1720[edit]

  • "Soon after, the under-10s side of local team Caer Castell FC, which included Bellamy – who scored all four goals in the club's first fixture – was formed." Awkward phrasing because of the two asides in a row. Maybe, "Soon after, the under-10s side of local team Caer Castell FC was formed, and Bellamy was chosen for the team. Bellamy scored all four goals in the club's first fixture."
  • "In 1993, he met his future wife Claire after his brother Paul introduced the pair;" -> "In 1993, his brother introduced him to his future wife, Claire;"
  • "Bellamy had previously travelled to Norwich by train on Saturday afternoons, played a youth match on Sunday morning before returning to Cardiff." Put "then" after the comma
  • "although the decision was later overturned on appeal." Delete later as redundant.
  • "he entered a downward spiral that culminated in an argument outside a Cardiff nightclub." Who was the argument with?
  • "Robson's man-management ability" What's a man-management ability?
  • "after fearing his own personal problems could leave him in a similar position." What did Speed die of? Did Speed's cause of death make Bellamy believe he would die a similar fate?
  • "Bellamy agreed terms with Oxford" agreed to terms?
    Agreed terms is a pretty common phrasing in relation to football. Kosack (talk) 18:24, 24 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • If that's the case then I'll withdraw this concern. Z1720 (talk) 23:29, 24 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • " against a claim of bullying of a youth-team player." Delete of
  • "They had their first child together—a son named Ellis—at the ages of 17 and 16 respectively." The sentence doesn't list the two people, so I am not sure which age refers to which person.
  • "In March 2019, he was banned from driving for 18 months after being found to be over the permitted alcohol limit while driving in Cardiff early that month. It was Bellamy's second driving ban; in 2013, he failed to declare himself as the driver of a car that was caught by a speed camera." I think these events should be in chronological order, perhaps with the speed camera incident described before the binge drinking.

Those are my thoughts. Please ping when everything is responded to. Z1720 (talk) 02:25, 24 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Z1720: Thanks very much, everything has been addressed bar the one comment above. Let me know what you think. Kosack (talk) 18:24, 24 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
My concerns have been addressed. I support. Z1720 (talk) 23:29, 24 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

TRM[edit]

  • Kosack just a quick reminder that as soon as you've dealt with the open issues from Lee and Amakuru, I'm more than happy to get straight on with my comments. Feel free to ping me if I don't notice. Cheers. The Rambling Man (Keep wearing the mask...) 20:11, 1 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Source review – pass[edit]

Hi Kosack, starting source review:

  • A number of pp's with single pages. I see at least refs 59, 61, 64, 84, 176, may be others I've missed.
    All fixed, I went through every usage to find any stragglers as well. Kosack (talk) 18:47, 28 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • What is "Developments: One World a Million Stories, p 14 Issue 49 2010" that was published by the Department for International Development? Does it need any italics, quotation marks, or more punctuation in the "p 14 Issue 49 2010" part?
    I didn't add this ref so I'm not really sure. It wasn't formatted with a template, so I've added that which should fix the punctuation issues. Kosack (talk) 18:47, 28 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • OK. I don't have a strong opinion about this, but if you didn't add it, and that means you're not familiar with the content in that source, one idea might be to remove it altogether, especially if the cited info is already covered by refs 217 and 218. Anyway, I'll leave it up to you to decide. Moisejp (talk) 05:24, 29 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • For ref 9, I think Trevor should be Terry? Moisejp (talk) 03:16, 26 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    Fixed. Kosack (talk) 18:47, 28 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Does ref 13 support the statement "but left the school with no GCSEs"?
    Ref 13 doesn't, but it's not directly supporting the info. That would be 14, which does support. Kosack (talk) 18:47, 28 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Apologies, I somehow got 13 and 14 mixed up when I was looking at them. Sorry about that. Moisejp (talk) 05:24, 29 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • It's not a requirement, but do you have a system for which refs to include archived versions for? All things considered, it seems like it would be good to be consistent. Moisejp (talk) 18:01, 26 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    I just use the auto archiver tool really. I don't manually archive anything. Kosack (talk) 18:47, 28 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • The linked page for ref 42 doesn't seem to list John May as the author, unless I've missed it. Moisejp (talk) 19:19, 26 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    The article begins with the line "BBC Sport Online's John May charts the progress of Craig Bellamy". I took this to indicate he was the author of the piece. Kosack (talk) 18:47, 28 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • You're right. There it is. Sorry about this mistaken comment too. ;-) Thanks for your responses so far. I'm going to try to finish this source review very very soon. Moisejp (talk) 05:24, 29 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I fixed a couple of dead links. I also was not always 100% sure what constitutes a reliable sports source, but the ones I looked at seemed reasonably reliable-looking, so would like to give the benefit of the doubt on them. I'm satisfied with the sources. Cheers, Moisejp (talk) 06:06, 1 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by Amakuru[edit]

  • Very general comment: This article is on the long side. At 58kb of prose, it is within the 50–60kb range at which it "may need to be divided (likelihood goes up with size)". I won't specifically mark it down on this, but I'd at least contrast it with Steve Davis, an FAC I recently opposed as too short. As one of the snooker greats, I'd expect more detail on him than our old friend Craig Bellamy, who was more of a "journeyman pro", all other things being equal. Kevin Beattie is another footballer FA with only 22kb of prose, so there is at the very least some inconsistency going on here. As such, while there's obviously there's no haste, and it doesn't have to be reduced in size, I may be on the look out for things that don't look necessary in the context of this bio article.
I can't really comment on the Steve Davis article but in relation to Beattie, Bellamy is a modern player making the availability of sources far wider than players of the older generation. I think journeyman pro is under-playing Bellamy a bit as his career has been certainly one of the most colourful in recent years. A more accurate comparison for me would be Robin Friday perhaps, which comes in at 41kb despite having less than a third of the playing career Bellamy did. Kosack (talk) 12:37, 26 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Early life
  • "The area was considered a traditional working-class environment and had been experiencing an economic downturn following the closure of the East Moor steelworks the previous year." - there's an example right there. Does this detail really help us to understand Bellamy? It would be sufficient IMHO to simply say "the Splott district of the city, a traditionally working-class areas" or similar, leaving out the economic downturn and the steelworks closure. - trimmed
  • "He first attended Baden Powell Primary School before switching to Trowbridge Juniors where he joined the school football team at the age of seven.[5][11] Despite being younger than most of the other players, he was selected to play and featured in his first match against Gladstone Primary School" - do we need to know the names of his primary schools? We could possibly distil all this down to just that he joined the team at the age of seven despite being younger than most of the players.
It's relatively common information to include, pretty much any substantial page tends to have it? Kosack (talk) 12:37, 26 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "his father instead offered to form a team if Bellamy could find enough players. Soon after, the under-10s side of local team Caer Castell FC was formed" - I initially assumed that the Caer Castell side was the one that his father had formed, but that might not make sense if he had to be "chosen" for it. Did the plan for his father to start a team not come to anything, or was it in fact the Caer Castell team?
The under-10s were the side formed, Caer Castell already existed as a club. I've dropped the chosen part to hopefully make that clearer. Kosack (talk) 12:37, 26 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • All looks good in this section apart from that. I'll be back later to look at the following sections, although I'd be interested to know your thoughts on the length question. Cheers  — Amakuru (talk) 09:36, 26 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Bristol Rovers and Norwich City
  • "Bellamy had attended youth sessions organised by Cardiff City in Ely for a year after being encouraged by his father" - I don't think this needs to be phrased in the past perfect tense, just "Bellamy attended..." would be fine. Also it would be good to have some sort of dates or ages on this, so we can place it in the narrative. I might be tempted to put it in the "Early life" section too, since it doesn't pertain to Bristol City or Norwich.
    I've rephrased but I think it fits better here than in the early life section as it sort of segways with Rovers picking him up too. Kosack (talk) 12:19, 29 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The club, however, took little interest in him as a youngster and, at nine-years-old, he joined Bristol Rovers after being spotted by former professional Stan Montgomery, who was working for the club" - two uses of "the club" in the sentence, and not referring to the same club!
    Reworded. Kosack (talk) 12:19, 29 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Bellamy found the opportunity of better coaching and his own playing kit irresistible" - sounds a bit journalese, maybe reword
    Reworded. Kosack (talk) 12:19, 29 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "He spent two years with Bristol" - probably more usual to spell out "Bristol Rovers" in full
    Done. Kosack (talk) 12:19, 29 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Bellamy had previously travelled to Norwich by train on Saturday afternoons, then played a youth match on Sunday morning before returning to Cardiff" - I would put this earlier, and probably in the prior paragraph, since it relates to a time chronologically earlier than him moving to Norwich full time. It would also be good to clarify the times/ages again. I am slightly confused by what ages all these things happened at.
    Moved and added his age at the start of the following paragraph. Kosack (talk) 12:19, 29 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Again, with the transition from YTS to reserves, and the contract for £250 per week, it would be good to know when this was.
    Added his age as dates aren't readily available. Kosack (talk) 12:19, 29 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "He made his professional debut for Norwich on 15 March 1997" - did he play no games for the reserves before this? And would be good to add his age so that we can slot it in relative to the prior events
    He likely did but those wouldn't be professional games. Added age. Kosack (talk) 12:19, 29 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Link Substitute (association football)
    Done. Kosack (talk) 12:19, 29 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "2–0 defeat to Crystal Palace in the First Division" - I think it's usual to clarify on first mention that this is the second tier of the English football league system etc.
    Added. Kosack (talk) 12:19, 29 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Two further appearances from the bench" - newcomers to football might not know what "from the bench" means?
    Changed to substitute appearances. Kosack (talk) 12:19, 29 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Premier League side Crystal Palace" - they were in the First Division at the start of this paragraph. Maybe clarify that they had been promoted in the interim
    Added. Kosack (talk) 12:19, 29 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "the experienced Peter Grant who" - probably needs a comma after "Grant"
    Added. Kosack (talk) 12:19, 29 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

That takes me to "Coventry City".  — Amakuru (talk) 17:13, 27 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

  • "Bellamy's form improved further after the arrival of his Wales strike-partner John Hartson" - I feel like another couple of sentences on the latter half of the season might be useful here, to provide some more detail on this point. Did he score more goals for example?
    The Coventry period has been a struggle to flesh out as it seems to be one of the more uneventful spells of his career. I could add a few mentions of goals, but they seem fairly routine moments? Kosack (talk) 19:32, 1 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Newcastle United
  • "Bellamy was involved in controversy when he was one of four players sent home from a winter training camp in La Manga after missing a team meal in honour of former chairman John Hall. The group claimed to be unaware of the significance of the dinner and had stayed on at a local restaurant" - I feel this could be trimmed down a little bit, just state what happened without saying it was a "controversy". Also, the word "claimed" should probably be amended to something else per MOS:CLAIM.
    Trimmed. Kosack (talk) 19:32, 1 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keiron Dyer - spelling
    Fixed. Kosack (talk) 19:32, 1 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Bellamy reacted to the defender pinching him, which resulted in a three-match ban" - this sounds like it might be the pinching that led to a three-match ban, so maybe reword slightly
    Reworded. Kosack (talk) 19:32, 1 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Bellamy began suffering from tendinitis in his knee that continued to cause him problems" - tighten a bit, it feels redundant to say he began suffering and then immediately that it continued to cause him problems.
    Trimmed. Kosack (talk) 19:32, 1 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "entered a downward spiral" - sounds slightly journalese / informal; see if it can be reworded more encyclopaedically.
    Reworded. Kosack (talk) 19:32, 1 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "two qualifying matches for Wales" - qualifying for what?
    Added. Kosack (talk) 19:32, 1 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Wales' matches" - MOS:'S advises us to say "Wales's"
    Done. Kosack (talk) 19:32, 1 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "In March 2004, he reportedly threw a chair" - "reportedly" is a bit WP:WEASEL; you might want to attribute the statement, or reword
    Reworded. Kosack (talk) 19:32, 1 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Graeme Souness era
  • "In a disappointing start to the season" - disappointing for whom? Reword for NPOV*: Reworded. Kosack (talk) 19:32, 1 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "in a post-match interview claimed it was" - reword "claimed"
    Done. Kosack (talk) 19:32, 1 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "With his Newcastle career in doubt Bellamy later" - comma after "doubt"
    Done. Kosack (talk) 19:32, 1 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "stating that Bellamy would never play for Newcastle again while he was manager and consequently the club fined Bellamy two weeks' wages" - was the fine a consequence of Souness's remarks, or was it a consequence of the original incident?
    Original incident so I've removed consequently. Kosack (talk) 19:32, 1 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "His last goal for the club came in a UEFA Cup group stage match against Sporting CP in December" - this doesn't seem to tally with Souness saying he'd never play for the club again, and his being exclude from training. Unless the Sporting game was before all that? Best make clear anyway.
    Reordered. Kosack (talk) 19:40, 1 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Celtic loan
  • "with Rangers win over Hibernian" - should be "a Rangers win"?
    Done. Kosack (talk) 19:40, 1 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Blackburn Rovers
  • In contrast to other sections, this one feels a little short for a 34-game stint, especially as the first sentences are about Everton.
    I've expanded a little but, similar to the Coventry section, there doesn't seem to many stand out moments as far as I can see beyond listing goals. Kosack (talk) 19:56, 1 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "an awkward final meeting with Moyes" - this sounds like an opinion rather than an objective fact
    Reworded. Kosack (talk) 19:40, 1 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Bellamy's efforts were rewarded" - journalese?
    Reworded. Kosack (talk) 19:40, 1 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

That brings me to "Liverpool".  — Amakuru (talk) 23:05, 30 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

  • Hi Amakuru, is there more to come on this one? Gog the Mild (talk) 13:23, 17 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    @Gog the Mild: thanks for the ping. Sorry I should have been clearer, but I have sort of paused my review here, awaiting some resolution to Sportsfan's concern below. As per my comment above, I had also raised a concern about the article length, which I would probably be prepared to tolerate if it was just me who was concerned about it. But I think if Sportsfan77777 is going to outright oppose this FAC or demand wholesale changes, then it would be better for me to do a fresh review after that's completed. If that concern is satisfactorily dealt with and Sportsfan77777 is happy to continue, however, then I'll get right back on to the review. Hope that makes sense to yourself and Kosack, but feel free to ping me if there's anything further I can do. Cheers  — Amakuru (talk) 13:50, 17 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Amakuru, that makes perfect sense to me. Apologies if I speed read your comments and missed that. Thanks for the prompt response. Gog the Mild (talk) 15:24, 17 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Amakuru, Sportsfan77777 has said "I'm content with the nominator's responses". Gog the Mild (talk) 15:19, 29 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@Gog the Mild: thanks for the update. I will return to this early next week if that's OK, since as you know I'm spending my time trying to gather a last few points in the WikiCup, and hopefully Kosack won't mind as they're not involved in this phase of the Cup this year! Cheers  — Amakuru (talk) 15:26, 29 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Amakuru ? Gog the Mild (talk) 21:45, 4 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@Gog the Mild: Yes, I'm here! I even started adding some more comments earlier today, but I never got around to hitting save 😃 I will finish the review tomorrow. Cheers  — Amakuru (talk) 23:14, 4 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Liverpool
  • "to allow him permission to talk to the club" - the word "permission" feels a bit unnecessary here
  • "paying £2 million to remove the clause" - it's not clear to me who would pay the £2 million here; it sounds like it's the club, but I'd have thought the clause benefits the club more than the player
  • "As a boyhood fan of the club" - this is the first time anything like this has been mentioned; the "Early life" section gave the impression that he was a Cardiff supporter
  • "18 yards (16 m) box" - this seems an odd construct, particularly with the conversion to metric. Might be better just to say "penalty area" and also link it.
  • "Liverpool had a disappointing finish in the Premier League" - "disappointing" again
  • "they reached the final" - I think it's usually better to link it as the final so that it doesn't look like a link to finals in general
West Ham United
  • "Sam Allardyce, who was manager of Newcastle, was rejected over a suggested swap deal involving Michael Owen" - slightly odd passive wording here. Maybe something more active like "Newcastle manager Sam Allardyce proposed bringing him back to the club in a swap with Michael Owen, but this was rejected by Liverpool" or something.
  • "Bellamy and his wife saw the birth of their third child" - encyclopedic wording. Just say the child was born, rather than that they "saw" it...
  • "the club struggled for results" - phrase a bit more clearly, did they lose games?
  • "Bellamy attracted the attention of several clubs" - this implies that Zola wanted to sell him, but it's not explicitly said.
  • "Bellamy refused to hand in a transfer request" - "hand in" wording could be made more encyclopedic, and also why did he have to make such a request anyway? Was that a conract clause?
  • "believing the club wanted to imply he had pushed for the transfer" - a few things here: (1) we shouldn't state that Bellamy believes something in Wikivoice, better to attribute it or make it a quote or something. Also, I found it a bit difficult to parse this with so many levels of indirection - believed / wanted / implied / pushed for... Maybe try to word more clearly
  • "accepted from a third undisclosed bid from City" - shouldn't it just be "accepted", rather than "accepted from"? And I'd prefer "Manchester City" on every usage, not "City"... check the whole article at least and make it consistent throughout anyway
  • "said to be around £14 million" - [by whom?]  — Amakuru (talk) 12:13, 5 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • "West Ham, however, continued with the move and accepted Manchester City's bid" - going back to the previous point about him being required to ask for a transfer request, it sounds here like West Ham were free to sell Bellamy without his wanting to move
Manchester City
  • "believed to be around £14 million" - we've already made the point that the fee was believed to be around £14 million in the previous paragraph, so probably could omit this detail here. Also as before, "believed to be" needs to be attributed per WP:WEASEL.
  • "This took his career-total transfer fees to £47m" - not sure the relevance of this. If I sell you a pen for £1, and you then sell that pen to someone else for £1, who sells it on again for another £1, and that chain continues 10,000 times, then the pen has achieved an aggregate total of £10,000 in sales, but it's still only worth £1 😃
  • "also arrived within a week" - repetition of "arrived"
  • "it was his third appearance before scoring twice against FC Copenhagen in the UEFA Cup two weeks later" - what does this mean?
  • "He argued with the group on more than one occasion" - seems like a repetition of the "with all of whom Bellamy clashed on several occasions" - from the last sentence
  • "later named Goal of the Month for September 2009" - the linked article does not italicise this; I'd also clarify that it's the BBC one
  • "18-yard (16 m) box" - can we just call it a penalty area (with a link) rather than this rather odd-looking unit conversion?
  • "sent off" - on the first occurrence of this (which is actually up in the Newcastle section I think) there should be a link to Ejection (sports)
  • "which angered Mancini" - probably not necessary and feels like it makes the sentence overlong; we know they argued already
Cardiff City loan
  • "paying a large percentage of his wages to make the move" - sounds like it's missing a word; should it be "make the move happen" or something?
  • "Reading" - link on the first mention, not the second
  • "swelling profusely after games" - language sounds a bit overdramatic here!
  • "brace" - probably worth rewording as non-football people might not know what this means
  • "confirmed a playoff place for Cardiff" - elsewhere you say "play-off", and indeed that's what our articles on this subject say
  • Link Volley (association football)
  • "Cardiff manager Dave Jones' sacking" - we already know he's the Cardiff manager; probably just say "Jones's" (and note that 's per MOS:'S)
  • "£4,000,000" - elsewhere we use the "£4 million" style
Return to Liverpool
  • It would be good to say here who won the League Cup final between Liverpool and Cardiff, since we get as far as knowing it went to penalties!
  • Links to appropriate articles for the League Cup and FA Cup finals would be good

That brings me to "Return to Cardiff City". More later today hopefully!  — Amakuru (talk) 12:22, 5 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

  • "despite new Liverpool manager Brendan Rodgers offering him the chance to stay" - what does this mean? Why would Rodgers not have allowed him to stay? Was it a case of him having to be offered a new contract by Liverpool?
Youth and senior arrival
  • "who was renowned for his unusual methods" - renowned by whom?
  • "friendly game" - could link to Exhibition game. Although the first occurrence is actually up in the Bristol Rovers/Norwich section, not here!
  • "Wales' manager" - Wales's
  • "Wales defeated Finland before facing Italy" - maybe change Wales to "they" here, as we've had a few too many mentions of Wales in consecutive sentences
  • "played-in Bellamy" - doesn't need a hyphen I would think
  • "stating; "The height of Toshack's ambitions" - the semicolon doesn't seem quite right here. Either a colon, or maybe even no punctuation at all
Style of play
  • "Bellamy has been described as having a dynamic style of play" - it would be good to say who described him thus
  • "WalesOnline" - link
Personal life
  • "their third, Lexi, in 2007" - more recent sources seem to spell the child's name as "Lexie": [2][3]
  • "MMA gym" - if we're going to use the abbreviation, then put it in brackets after the fully-spelled-out version
  • Apparently he also has another child called Orla, who is one year old. I've only been able to corroborate that in the Daily Mail though, so if it's not covered anywhere else then it's probably right to omit it, particularly as there's no other context.[4]

I think that's about it. A long read, as I already noted, but it seems well-written and comprehensive anyway. Cheers!  — Amakuru (talk) 23:25, 5 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Kosack ? Gog the Mild (talk) 16:00, 12 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Support by Lee Vilenski[edit]

I'll begin a review of this article very soon! My reviews tend to focus on prose and MOS issues, especially on the lede, but I will also comment on anything that could be improved. I'll post up some comments below over the next couple days, which you should either respond to, or ask me questions on issues you are unsure of. I'll be claiming points towards the wikicup once this review is over.

I've done a thorough read through, and I can't come up with much. It's a well written article. Below is all I could put together:

Lede
  • becoming the club's record signing - should really explain this was transfer fee, Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 11:34, 1 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    Reowrded. Kosack (talk) 20:06, 1 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • His time at Liverpool is arguably the height of his career, so could do with being fleshed out in the lede. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 11:34, 1 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    Expanded. Kosack (talk) 20:06, 1 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Prose
    • His full name could easily be sourced to the lede and not the infobox. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 11:34, 1 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    I think it's generally preferred to keep refs in the infobox. Kosack (talk) 20:06, 1 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • YTS - could we not just say "youth"? Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 11:34, 1 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    I think YTS was the official name for the signing of youth players at the time. Kosack (talk) 20:06, 1 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    It was the Youth Training Scheme, no? The Rambling Man (Keep wearing the mask...) 20:12, 1 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    Bellamy does remark that he was offered a "two-year YTS apprenticeship" in the source. Kosack (talk) 16:18, 2 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • There's quite a lot of whitespace on my screen before the refs, any reason for this? Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 11:34, 1 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    I can't see anything obvious on my end, but I'm on mobile so the layout is always different for me. I've checked the coding in the honours and international goals sections for obvious excess space and can't find any? Kosack (talk) 20:06, 1 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • There is a ref for the Express, isn't this unreliable? Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 11:34, 1 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    I'm not sure, I used the ref for his DYK a couple of years ago unless it's changed since then? I can remove it if needs be. Kosack (talk) 14:23, 2 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • career high 19 goals in all competitions. - is this the highest he scored throughout his career? Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 11:34, 1 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    Yeah. Kosack (talk) 14:23, 2 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • about £80,000) - could we inflate? Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 11:34, 1 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    Added. Kosack (talk) 14:23, 2 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • AC Milan - A.C. Milan Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 11:34, 1 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    Done. Kosack (talk) 14:23, 2 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Additional comments

Additionally, if you liked this review, or are looking for items to review, I have some at my nominations list. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski (talk • contribs) 11:13, 1 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the review Lee, I've responded to all of the points above. Kosack (talk) 14:23, 2 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Quick comments from Sportsfan77777[edit]

I'm leaning oppose for the article being too long, along the lines of what Amakuru has already said. All of the top athletes and other notable bios brought to FAC over the past year have been told to stay closer to 50kb than 60kb. Bellamy definitely isn't a top footballer, maybe not even a top Welsh footballer, so I don't see why his article should be this long when that's not even being allowed any more for all-time greats or important historical figures. With someone like Robin Friday, you can get away with having more detail because his career was short enough that even with so much detail, the article still isn't that long. If Friday had as long of a career as Bellamy, Friday's article wouldn't end up at 60 kb; it would be closer to 50kb and some of the detail currently in his article would end up being cut. Sportsfan77777 (talk) 05:38, 2 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure it should be seen as a competition between how well-known someone is to how big their article can be and indeed Friday is a prime example of that. There are a stack of FA-rated cricket bios between 50-60kb and even 47kb articles on a single year in a player's career. We cover what is generally considered notable and covered by sources. As a modern day footballer with his considerable catalogue of incidents, Bellamy has probably received more print coverage than some of the world's best players combined from years gone by. As the availability of sources increases, so surely does the breadth of coverage we can provide. I have no doubt that there is probably some fine-tuning that could be trimmed here and there, as Amakuru is helping with above, but I think the article is of reasonable size for the subject.
In relation to Friday, I think it's an underestimate to say his article wouldn't hit 60kb. He played around 150 matches in his career, while Bellamy played nearly four times as much and holds a considerable international career to add as well. Kosack (talk) 16:14, 2 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, that's fine. Other FAs have certainly done that before, even if the recent ones haven't. Sportsfan77777 (talk) 22:20, 20 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Another big problem is that the article doesn't seem focused. The club career section covers three main facets: his accomplishments, his controversies, and his injuries. The way it's written (in particular with the length), that seems like too much. I could easily imagine someone coming to this article just to get an overview of all of the controversies he has been involved in or an overview of his injuries (those are the first things I looked for after reading the lead), but there's no summary of either of those things anywhere in the article. You essentially have to read the entire >6000-word club career section just to understand why he is so controversial or how injuries have affected him. That's too much to ask of a typical reader who just wants to find some specific info on Bellamy. Sportsfan77777 (talk) 05:38, 2 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

You could potentially mitigate that issue by splitting off the controversies into a separate section. I could understand why his rift with Souness is an important part of the club career section because it led to him leaving Newcastle, but most of the other controversies don't seem to have any big or longterm effects on his career. Relatedly, I have doubts that proper weight is given to each of the controversies. He was suspended three matches for a head-butting incident, but that only gets one sentence. Meanwhile, his fight with Riise gets a full 10+ sentence paragraph, even though he wasn't even suspended for that and there is no longterm significance (or at the very least, no longterm significance is mentioned). The missed dinner and police caution at Newcastle are examples of incidents that are worth mentioning and maybe have the right weight, but might be better off in a separate controversies section because no significance of these events is indicated towards his playing career or how he is perceived. Sportsfan77777 (talk) 05:38, 2 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The article lists the events of his career in chronological order. Separating controversial incidents into their own section seems like bordering on WP:TRIVIA in my opinion and would possibly be adding WP:UNDUE weight and focus onto the incidents in relation to his career. Kosack (talk) 16:14, 2 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
That's fair. I may be overestimating how controversial he is perceived to be. Sportsfan77777 (talk) 22:20, 20 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Another thing I was wondering about was is Bellamy associated with any particular club? My impression from reading the article is that he is not associated or remembered for playing for any one or two clubs in particular because he played for so many different clubs. If that is correct, then nothing needs to be done to address this concern. But if he is best associated with say Liverpool and/or Cardiff (and/or Newcastle??), then that should be made clearer. Sportsfan77777 (talk) 05:38, 2 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Probably not really, no doubt fans of those club's would see him as such, but I don't think he's synonymous with any one club. Kosack (talk) 16:14, 2 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Sportsfan77777 ? Gog the Mild (talk) 21:04, 24 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I commented above. I'm content with the nominator's responses. Sportsfan77777 (talk) 02:41, 29 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Coordinator comment[edit]

Kosack - It looks like you haven't edited since 3 October, and it looks like a fair number of Amakuru's comments are not addressed yet, I'm afraid this may have to be archived if we can't get this restarted over the next couple days. We can't hold this open indefinitely, unfortunately. Hog Farm Talk 04:01, 21 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

With a number of outstanding comments still here, and Kosack on a lengthy break, I'm going to have to archive this for now. Hog Farm Talk 04:14, 24 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Featured_article_candidates/Craig_Bellamy/archive1&oldid=1056932999"