Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/December to Dismember (2006)/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was not promoted 04:16, 23 October 2007.

December to Dismember (2006)[edit]

This article has gone through Peer review, see here and after a lot of work mainly by myself and other WP:PW members, it passed Good Article status. I think the article has a realistic chance of passing FA. If there are any minor errors you notice, please inform me underneath where I will fix them. Thanks, Davnel03 16:47, 19 October 2007 (UTC)z[reply]

Oppose Hold nomination, until improval Davnel, dont take this personally, cuz you are a real help in WP:PW, and you have helped a lot in the development of many articles. I just think that this article needs a little more to be FA. Here's a list:

In-Universe

  • The article has in-universe statements, and others that are not in the same paragraph, or even in the same sentence. (ex. As Holly was making his way to the ring, however, SmackDown! superstar Bobby Lashley kayfabe attacked Holly and signed the contract himself to gain the sixth and final place in the Extreme Elimination Chamber.[15]) If we put aside these statemtnes, then the article is completely In-Universe. See WP:FICT, as it clearly states that an article should be written in an "out-of-universe perspective".
  • Some may be considered in-universe, but I have tried to make it outer-universe by using words like "kayfabe, legitimately, booked etc." I could put the word "kayfabe" in every single sentence (after all, its all booked by the creative team before hand) - however it would start to become repetitive and just bore the reader with the same word in every single sentence. Am I right? Davnel03 18:21, 20 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • See the article Shelton Benjamin for a great way on writing an article out-of-universe. Lex94 Talk Contributions Signatures 18:39, 20 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • I know how to write articles out of universe. In my opinion this article is quite out of universe. How do you think it passed GA? Any article that is currently in-universe will not pass GA (a problem that has held The Undertaker article back). Davnel03 18:45, 20 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • I sadly disagree. When it says something like "MNM performed the Snapshot on Jeff and looked set to win. Matt, however, broke the pinfall and performed a double neckbreaker on MNM. ", you are not stating that this was booked before; you are stating that Matt, out of pure skill, broke the pinfall, without MNM knowing. - Most of the writing in this article is like this. Like I said, go to Shelton Benjamin. This article is outstanding in out-universe material. Lex94 Talk Contributions Signatures 19:02, 20 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • What is written is a recap of what happened in the ring, attributing any specific move, anything beyond who won the match to booking or pre-planning is "Original Research", we don't know if the Hardys & MNM sat down and came up with the layout, we don't know how much was determined by someone else and we don't know what portion was improvised in the ring - stating anything other than what was seen in the ring is original research and should be left out. I'm sorry but you've gone off the deep end here, either that or you assume that every non-wrestling fan is a moron and have to have the "this is scripted" line hammered home every 3 words. MPJ-DK 14:55, 21 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    • I am not saying I want the whole article to have it's sentences beginning with "The outcome was booked...", etc; but the article must at least not be completely out of universe. The only out-of-universe sentences in the Event section are: After the match, Sabu was shown kayfabe injured backstage and unable to compete in the Extreme Elimination Chamber match.; In a conversation with Big Show before he made his way to the ring, he revealed that for the first-time in his professional career he was not motivated to give the promo; The article must at least have all in-ring action, explained as out-of universe. And, we can't just assume that everyone who reads the article knows how professional wrestling is worked out, and we also can't assume they all are smarks. PS. The WWE always have their matches pre-planned. Lex94 Talk Contributions Signatures 15:08, 21 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
      • You have a reliable source there for the use of "always" and maybe a breakdown of just how much level of detail these matches are planned in? I'll need to see a source on those statements before they carry any weight. MPJ-DK 15:56, 21 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
        • Just read the lead section on the Professional wrestling page. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Lex94 (talk • contribs) 16:01, 21 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
          • I see... THAT is your answer? Referring to an unsourced Wikipedia page to back up your "always" and level of planning? I'm sorry I'm going to stop arguing now because it's obvious you're not reading what I'm writing here and I'd rather spend my time productively than trying to play "make you get the point" MPJ-DK 17:09, 21 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
          • I stand mistaken - you refer to a section that says nothing about WWE or anyone else for that matter pre-planning a match beyond determining the winner. *shakes head* futile task, I give thee up. MPJ-DK 17:11, 21 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
            • Sorry, I didn't see that the page was unsourced, but it still is common knowledge that WWE's professional wrestling is completely booked. I can recall three releases of the wrestler Teddy Hart, because he liked improvising his match, instead of someone telling him every single move he had to do. Use logic; if matches weren't completely booked, the time rate wouldn't be known, and a PPV can go on for more or less time then it should be, which has never been the case (except for December to Dismember (2006)) Lex94 Talk Contributions Signatures 17:21, 21 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
              • Common knowledge don't cut it on Wikipedia (weren't YOU talking about reliable sources?), them saying that the match has "7 minutes" or "22 minutes" could just as easily explain why they tend to have PPVs at a certain length. Comments from a guy who is extremely prone to lying don't cut it. Reliable source stating that it's always planned and to what degree of detail it's planned in. Otherwise it's "original research" to say what the Hardy boys were or were not booked to do, it's only possible to recap what they did - not the origin of the match.MPJ-DK 17:37, 21 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
                • I know common knowledge doesn't cut it on wikipedia. And it is not original research to say it was planned, because or it was planned by the Creative Team, or it was planned by him all along. The point I am trying to make is, when Jeff Hardy was on the matt, and Joey Mercury was pinning him: why didn't Joey Mercury stop the pin?, because he knew Matt was going to break the pinfall. This is obvious, but when a non-wrestling fan reads the article, they would assume it is all real, because of the way it is written. This is something that had to be changed in the Shelton Benjamin article, and it is written greatly now. I am not saying that the word "booked" or "kayfabe" should be written at the beginning of every sentence, but at least something should imply that it isn't real. I have been pushing to have a wiki-box on the beginning of every page, that says: "The following occurences are kayfabe and have been written to recap the events. If you are not knowlegable on the subject, please read Professional wrestling, but I was turned down. Lex94 Talk Contributions Signatures 18:02, 21 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
                  • There you go again with your original research, we can't for sure state anything other than the winners of the match were planned - for all we know they improvised the bit you're referring to since something else didn't go according to plan, the point is we don't know. You've got this "in universe" issue up the wrong way, I mean in articles on Star Wars does it keep repeating "the story was written that Luke would swing the light saber"? It was part of the script that Darth Vader was Luke's father?? Does it say that? Because that's basically what you're saying this article should do. MPJ-DK 06:32, 22 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • So you were saying a few days ago that this is a very good ago, now your saying it's completely in-universe. If this article was in-universe it wouldn't of passed GA! Also, how can I improve the "Event" section by integregating words like "kayfabe", "booked" etc. It's very difficult, along with making it sound perfect. Davnel03 19:06, 20 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • A lot of people overlook things when they review articles. And I do think the article is great, it just needs an outer-universe take on things. Read Shelton Benjamin. It can give you examples like: "They continued to feud (in storyline)...", "Benjamin was booked to be moved to the RAW brand; "Shawn Michaels was scripted to give Benjamin a speech to get him "psyched""... Lex94 Talk Contributions Signatures 19:13, 20 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Those examples don't help me. Examples of how I could change things in the "Event" section would help me improve the article. Davnel03 19:14, 20 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Weasel Words

  • You must avoid weasel words, because there are some in this article (ex. At this time, Van Dam was seen by some as the top candidate to win the Extreme Elimination Chamber.) Plus, the reference you gave to this particular sentence is not a RELIABLE SOURCE.
  • SEE BELOW COMMENT ON RELIABILITY OF WRESTLEVIEW.COM. Davnel03 18:21, 20 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • I read it. It still does not address WP:Weasel. Read WP:Weasel to understand why you can't use statements like: "Van Dam was seen by some..." Lex94 Talk Contributions Signatures 18:39, 20 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Any ideas on how I could change it so it doesn't sound as weasley? Davnel03 18:54, 20 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Well, you can't change this sentence and make it sound less weasley. The weasel words and their sentences must be removed. [WP:Weasel]] states you can't use words like "some people", they also give a great example: "So, some people say that Montreal is the best city in the world - Who are these people? When, where and why did they say that? What kind of bias might they have? How many is some? Consider the radically different answers these questions might have and what the average reader would make of them, and you might understand just how fundamentally lacking this statement about what-some-people-say is." Lex94 Talk Contributions Signatures 19:23, 20 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Actually, after having thorougly read the source, it says Van Dam was a top-candidate to win the match. I've changed the sentence to say Van Dam was booked to win the Elimination Chamber. I've done that based on the source. Davnel03 19:28, 20 October 2007 (UTC).[reply]
  • This is not a reliable source. You have no idea if Van Dam was booked to win or not, so do not keep this sentence in the article. And this was just an example. There are more sentences like this in the article, and I advise you have them deleted. I know WWE wont just announce on their site that Van Dam was going to win, but they changed their mind. But because of this reality, you can't just write this on the page. If Van Dam eventually mentions this in an autobiography or interview, then you can use that source. But, any wrestling fansite like wrestleview, is not acceptable. Lex94 Talk Contributions Signatures 19:42, 20 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • According to the WrestleView article, it was reported by The Wrestling Observer (one of the most reliable wrestling sources). Davnel03 19:44, 20 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • I was going to get to that. I was going to tell you [and I am telling you now] to get the statement from TWO itself, and then you can call it a reliable source. Also, now that you have changed the sentence, it no longer is a Weasel Statement, it now is Speculation Lex94 Talk Contributions Signatures 19:52, 20 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • I can't find anything on TWO that proves that is true, so I've removed that point. Davnel03 20:13, 20 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Wrestling Moves

  • Wrestling moves shouldn't be portrayed like they are in these sentences: (Burke pinned Mamaluke after hitting an Elijah Experience on him.; After the match, Terkay hit Maritato with a Musclebuster.) They should be portrayed like this: Burke pinned Mamaluke after sweeping him off his feet with an Elijah Experience. After the match, Terkay performed the Musclebuster on Mamaluke. Because pro wrestling is entertaiment and not real fighting, the moves should be accompanied by "performed" instead of "hit".
  • I'd like to have more opinions on that before I make drastic changes. Nothing against the comment, you may well be 100% correct, but want more opinions on that particular point. Davnel03 18:21, 20 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • I agree with this point, as it sounds like it is real; IOT, it sounds in-universe. The Hybrid T/C 18:45, 20 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Changed many references of "hit" to "performed", see here. Davnel03 18:51, 20 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • disagree they describe what happened - and to say "it's real", well it is, as in he performed the professional wrestling move "XX" - unless you imply it was a stunt double or CGI or something then Burke did hit the "Elijah Experience" on him, that did happen. I'm not saying performed is wrong, but I'm also not saying that it's wrong to say "hit a move" now and again. MPJ-DK 15:59, 21 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    Yes, but the sentences still read extremely poorly in this form. Only wrestling fans are familiar with these constructions and they tend remind the rest of us of poorly-formed English. Even though slang has its own place in language, we must consider the readership. JHMM13(Disc) 16:49, 21 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Unreferenced Statements

  • Some statements are unreferenced. The one that I especially noticed, was "The Hardys had just teamed up for the first time since 2001 on ECW when they defeated Tony Mamaluke and Little Guido Maritato." The reason for this is, that this is an un-true statement, as they faced Sylvester Terkai and Elijah Burke for the first time since 2001, on ECW on SciFi. I remember this match, because it was Elijah and Terkai's first match on SciFi, and they lost.
  • Nope they took on the FBI, see here. Added ref. Davnel03 18:21, 20 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Completely my bad. Sorry about that. But still, sentences still need referencing in this article. Lex94 Talk Contributions Signatures 18:39, 20 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Speculation

  • After the match, Sabu was shown kayfabe injured backstage and unable to compete in the Extreme Elimination Chamber match. His place was taken by Hardcore Holly. In reality, however, Sabu had heat on him backstage and was said to be disinterested at TV tapings. Rumors evolved stating that WWE viewed Sabu as being "useless" in normal matches and that he could only perform in matches that included "stunts and tables and they [WWE] don't respect him because of that." This was reportedly part of the reason he had been squashed by Umaga on an episode of RAW a few weeks earlier. Vince McMahon wanted to put Holly in the match, so Lashley would have more heels to overcome. Heyman was legitimately unhappy with the decision, saying that Sabu's high-flying wrestling would be "the ideal showcase" inside the Extreme Elimination Chamber. - I believe this statement because I choose to, after seeing it on most wrestling sites, but it still is speculating, because WWE never announced [or announces] the reasons of things going on in the broadcasts.
  • SEE BELOW.

Reliable Sources

  • I don't think wrestleview.com is a "Reliable Source", and mostly that's the site which is most linked on this page. I may be wrong though. Cheers, Lex94 Talk Contributions Signatures 15:37, 20 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • This is a problem. I believe it is a reliable source if the event in question did come true. WWE.com always stay in kayfabe, and they rarely ever go outside of kayfabe, hence why I have had to use other "not so reliable" sources. If I completely used sources from WWE.com, the Sabu issue could not be talked about. Also, the real reason for Paul Heyman quitting WWE was never revealed on their official website. I believe it is a reliable source looking back at past things, but would I use it on superstar articles? Definite no. PPV's I believe are different, we know what happened is true, and I believe WrestleView.com (in this context) is a reliable source. Davnel03 18:21, 20 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • That was my point. The Sabu issue should not be talked about in this article, as this article is about the event. The only explanation you should add for Sabu not being in the main event is: "Sabu did not appear in the main event, because he was (kayfabe) injured and unable to compete". And adding comments that Paul Heyman and Vince McMahon said, that you have no idea if it's true or not, as facts, is just speculating. Lex94 Talk Contributions Signatures 18:33, 20 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Again, WWE.com stays COMPLETELY in kayfabe. And these comments are backed up by sources, reliable or not. As for the Sabu thing, aren't featured articles meant to be detailed as well as giving background information on related events? Davnel03 18:57, 20 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • I believe the Sabu issue is appropriate for the article, as it affected the main event of the night and led to Heyman leaving WWE. While I don't necessarily agree with the reliableness of WrestleView, I agree with Davnel that that sort of information is not going to be found on WWE.com. In fact, WWE.com is a primary source and should only be trusted for event results and title reigns. The best solution, of course, would be a book source, but that doesn't exist yet. Another option as an interview by Heyman or Sabu, but I can't recall seeing either of those either. Nikki311 19:38, 20 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Because of this Nikki, that statement should be removed from the article, until a Reliable Source exists. Lex94 Talk Contributions Signatures 19:44, 20 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Nope, because if that was not in the article, the article would be failed as it fails to cover one of the major issues (which is a must for FA). Davnel03 19:46, 20 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Have you looked through The Wrestling Observer's archives? There has to be something about it in there. I would be shocked if there wasn't. Nikki311 19:56, 20 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Geez, never thought about that! I'll look through now. Davnel03 19:57, 20 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Nope, there isn't anything in there. As you probably know, they do newsletters every day of the week, which are not available to the general public, but (I guess) the webmasters of wrestling-related websites are allowed to have copies of the newsletters. Davnel03 20:25, 20 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Go to this link: Wrestling Observer Newsletter Search; If you search for Sabu, and you check the articles from Oct 1 2006-Dec 31 2006, it has absoulutely no article about Sabu having heat backstage. So, this is just OR Lex94 Talk Contributions Signatures 20:40, 20 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • No it is not (book source that is also used in the section of the article.) Davnel03 20:50, 20 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Well, I read your link. It just states that Sabu was taken out of the main event, and Hardcore Holly replaced him. It does not state in any way, that it was because of backstage heat, and that wwe didnt respect his talent, because he was only useful in hardcore matches. That is what is OR. Lex94 Talk Contributions Signatures 21:06, 20 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • You obviously haven't read the source. It also states why McMahon wanted Holly in the match, and why Heyman wanted Sabu in the match. Davnel03 21:12, 20 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • I did read it. And it does state that, but hat is not the point. The article says: In reality, however, Sabu had heat on him backstage and was said to be disinterested at TV tapings. Rumors evolved stating that WWE viewed Sabu as being "useless" in normal matches and that he could only perform in matches that included "stunts and tables and they [WWE] don't respect him because of that." This was reportedly part of the reason he had been squashed by Umaga on an episode of RAW a few weeks earlier. - This is not something expressed in the reference you gave. Lex94 Talk Contributions Signatures 21:20, 20 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Yes, which is covered by the WRESTLEVIEW source. I'm off for the night. Davnel03 21:27, 20 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • I already explained before, that Wrestleview is not a reliable source. If you do not rid the article of speculation like this, it cannot make FA (It is still a wonder how it made GA). Lex94 Talk Contributions Signatures 21:33, 20 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Sourcing - possible solution/compromise

  • Okay. I've been trying to think of a solution to this giant mess, and I think I have one. Perhaps you can mention that instead of being a fact, it was widely rumored that Sabu's release was because of backstage heat; then, the wrestleview source would work because it is supporting the rumor. I know we usually try to avoid rumors, but it was reported by practically every rumor site. Another part to this is to cut down on some of the wrestleview sources elsewhere in the article. I found an article by the Chicago Sun-Times that talks about Big Show being in physical pain. That would eliminate two wrestleviw sources right there. Here's another article from the CST that talks about Heyman being fired and Show's pain. I hope this helps. I'm going to continue to look for sources to replace the wrestleview ones, and if nobody likes this compromise, then I'll try and formulate another one. Nikki311 21:07, 22 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
That could work. Just get the sources to all those rumors. The Chronic 03:35, 23 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.
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