Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Dishonored/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Ian Rose 13:24, 28 March 2014 (UTC) [1].[reply]

Dishonored[edit]

Dishonored (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Toolbox
Nominator(s): Darkwarriorblake (talk) 22:50, 24 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Dishonored is a 2012 video game set in a fictional historical analog of the United Kingdom but with magic abilities and rife with futuristic technology. This game was one of the critical darlings of the year, for offering choice and consequences, and harking back to ye olde gameplay like Deus Ex (2000). The article as it stands is comprehensive, covering every major element of the game, from function to design and reception with every available source. All references are archived and complete, the article has been copy edited, and I believe that it is off a high standard of quality worthy of becoming a Featured Article. I was going to do this in an in-universe tone but I can't remember enough of the game to get into character. Read and enjoy! Darkwarriorblake (talk) 22:50, 24 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Comment "...the Empress' legendary bodyguard."? --John (talk) 22:39, 25 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I'm willing to make changes but what is your exact issue? The Legendary part? DWB (talk) / Comment on Dishonored's FA nom! 23:08, 25 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I, and most style guides, would prefer "Empress's". There is some good work going on to improve the prose just now, which is needed for FA. I will look back again in a day or two. --John (talk) 20:19, 26 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Done. DWB (talk) / Comment on Dishonored's FA nom! 21:33, 26 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Comments from Hellknowz
Resolved comments at the talk page

I'm not closely familiar with WP:NFCC, but File:Dishonored_Video_Game_-_Gameplay.ogv doesn't seem like fair use to me allowed on Wikipedia. We hardly allow still images, and this is essentially 30 fps x 34 sec of frames. While I personally agree it shows good gameplay, I don't think this passes NFCC#3. Someone more knowledgeable should probably comment on this though (preferably not here), I have hardly ever seen videos in video game articles and looking at Category:Non-free video samples I see 1 other (by you at FFD with a very long discussion.) While I would personally make various arguments for and against, I don't think this is suitable for FAC just yet under current WMF NFCC regulations without some kind of discussion first.

I'm not too keen to repeat that debate, but a video is not X * number of still images, and video at some point was not used in any article but that has changed. Per WP:OTHERSTUFF other articles not doing something (and let's be frank there are not a lot of high quality game articles compared to poor quality ones) does not create a hard rule against it, and of all media, games are more likely to require video than film, yet film articles do not seem to attract the same scrutiny at all regarding the use of moving media. The file has a full and detailed NFCC explanation, it is short, it replaces what was a copyrighted video segment from a trailer demonstrating the same thing but now does it in 30 seconds at a smaller file size and demonstrates both gameplay, interface, and Blink, which received notable critical attention from multiple third parties. The information in the video cannot be conveyed by a still image, to a non gamer the information conveyed is invaluable and cannot be properly explained in text alone, and would require the violation of NFCC #3 to use multiple images to convey the same thing. And multiple images would still not be able to convey Blink. I stand firmly behind this video, its satisfying of NFCC rules and its purpose in this article. Even Stefan2 didn;t nominate it for deletion, just tagged it for resizing, and he was the nominator of the Batman video. DWB (talk) / Comment on Dishonored's FA nom! 23:32, 27 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
NFCC to me isn't comparable to other IAR-able policies and guidelines. Until WMF says "videos are okay", I won't consider it sufficient for a legal matter that needs real lawyers specializing in copyright and fair use. Personally, I think videos should be allowed. And it won't stop me from supporting the FA if others don't object. So on those grounds, I won't argue about it, just noting this for the record. —  HELLKNOWZ  ▎TALK 23:59, 27 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Read all the prose. Really nice article, great development/reception. As a gamer and having played the game, I'm trying a non-biased view, but I still have my quarrels with the gameplay/plot. Lead is a little short for my liking and doesn't mention design/development, but besides that sums everything well enough. —  HELLKNOWZ  ▎TALK 12:10, 27 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I think I addressed your issues regarding the plot, did I miss one? DWB (talk) / Comment on Dishonored's FA nom! 23:32, 27 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I think this a more "generic vague comment" that any concrete feedback. I'd really need to get into and it would become extremelly nitpicky and subjective quickly. —  HELLKNOWZ  ▎TALK 23:59, 27 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I have to go to bed for work right now but I will expand the lead tomorrow regarding development section. DWB (talk) / Comment on Dishonored's FA nom! 00:04, 28 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I expanded the lead a little, is there anything absent you think should be covered? DWB (talk) / Comment on Dishonored's FA nom! 23:10, 28 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Nothing significant I can think of. —  HELLKNOWZ  ▎TALK 09:55, 29 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

With that, Support article for FA. —  HELLKNOWZ  ▎TALK 23:59, 27 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]

  • I love this game. It was my pick for 2012 Game of the Year, and as such, I feel an obligation to review it. I will go through it this weekend. — ΛΧΣ21 Call me Hahc21 17:00, 30 January 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Did you get a chance to review it Hahc21? DWB (talk) / Comment on Dishonored's FA nom! 23:57, 4 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I wish. I had a read but life is keeping me busy. I will try to do it ASAP. — ΛΧΣ21 Call me Hahc21 04:21, 5 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Lead
  • "Dishonored is a 2012 stealth action adventure video game ... released worldwide in October 2012..." -> it's a bit redundant saying it's a "2012 stealth..." if you later specify with the date. I'd recommend removing the 2012 before stealth, since it's unnecessary.
  • The opening 2012 is more necessary than the latter, and the latter is necessary for specificity and to disambiguate from any other future release dates. DWB (talk) / Comment on Dishonored's FA nom! 15:19, 9 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • "follows Corvo Attano, the Empress's bodyguard." -> "follows the story of Corvo." Otherwise the sentece feels lacking. Also, the Empress of what?
  • "Dishonored received generally positive reviews, which focused on the missions' individual narratives..." I'd remove the which. I feel it doesn't belong there.
  • Done, though I'm not sure about the grammatical correctness of the sentence now. DWB (talk) / Comment on Dishonored's FA nom! 15:19, 9 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • In general, i don't feel completely happy with the lead. It looks good but there are some sentences that feel oddly placed, like the one about the game's score or the actors that provided voice work. They feel disconnected from the overall theme of the paragraph, imho.
  • The voice actor sentence works fine IMO, the music sentence has nowhere else to go, so it would have to be removed otherwise, but in its current position it at least compliments the paragraphs discussion of setting. DWB (talk) / Comment on Dishonored's FA nom! 15:19, 9 February 2014 (UTC) [reply]
  • More to come. — ΛΧΣ21 Call me Hahc21 05:05, 9 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Comments from Sven Manguard
  • I don't have patience for pointing out minor grammatical faux pas and suggesting fixes to them, which seems the typical route in GAN/FAC reviews, so I just a couple of small changes myself. Feel free to check them.
  • The line "A mental institution where Corvo would have faced crazed inmates who are sensitive to sound was removed." at the end of the Design section seems to be just tacked on at the end. It seems out of place where it is, but I don't have any better ideas for it.
  • "The game was also recognized at the event for: "Game of Show" by GameSpy,[86] and Joystiq Editor-in-Chief Ludwig Keitzmann,[87] and was nominated by Destructoid and EGM;[88][89] "Best Action Game" by GameSpy,[90] and EGM,[89] and nominated by Destructoid;[88] "Best of E3 2012 Editors' Choice Award" by GameSpot;[91] "Most Original Game" by G4TV;[92] "Best of Show" by Digital Trends;[93] "Best of E3 Selection" by Yahoo Games and Game Revolution; "The Best Game at E3" by Cinema Blend; "Top 10 Game of E3" by Paste magazine[94] and Stuff;[95] and Kotaku listed the "Blink" ability as one of the "Top 27 Game Ideas" at the event.[23]" - Please break this up into several, more manageable sentences.
  • You use the oxford comma inconsistently throughout the article. It was omitted most of the time but included some of the time. Generally, only one or the other should be used.

Ping me when you've addressed these. Sven Manguard Wha? 22:13, 11 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

  • Thank you.
  • It is part of the discussion on level design, sadly there isn't any more info about it to expand upon.
  • Think I sorted this.
  • Think I sorted this Sven Manguard. DWB (talk) / Comment on Dishonored's FA nom! 21:29, 13 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support; no concerns jump out at me. Tezero (talk) 21:42, 17 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Rapunzel-bellflower

Lead
  • "Dishonored's music score was produced by composer Daniel Licht to represent 1800s London." Not entirely sure what this means. Is it early 19th-century London or just plain 19th-century London?
  • "Dishonored received generally positive reviews, focused on the missions' individual narratives and the freedom available in completing them." Not entirely sure of the grammar of this. Maybe change "reviews, focused on" to "reviews, focusing on"?
  • "Criticism fell on the overarching narrative—which was considered predictable, and problems in controlling the player's character." Not sure what the em dash is doing here.
  • " Following its release, the game won several awards including the 2012 Spike[...] " -->"Following its release, the game won several awards, including the 2012 Spike [...]"
Synopsis
"The Outsider is described as a mixture of God and the Devil, who imprints his mark on Corvo and imbues him with magical abilities,[34] and provides him with a mechanically altered human heart (April Stewart)[37] that tells Corvo secrets." --> Maybe "Described as a mixture of God and the Devil, the Outsider imprints his mark on Corvo, imbues him with magical abilities,[34] and provides him with a mechanically altered human heart [...]"
Not entirely happy with the use of em dashes in the character section. If it doesn't bother other people, then don't worry about it.
Development
  • "The designers conceived the Tallboys as town criers, and were later given stilts after Mitton noticed someone cleaning their office façade while wearing stilts, and the town crier role was replaced with loudspeakers throughout Dunwall." 1)This sentence seems to have two parts that don't quite flow. I would start a new sentence with "The town crier role[...]" Or you can add in a "however" like this --> "[...] wearing stilts; however, the town crier role [...]" 2)Also, bonus points for spelling façade correctly! ;)
  • "Mitton suggested adding a phosphorus canister to the Tallboys' backs for aesthetic reasons, but Smith suggested whale-oil," Why does whale oil have a hypen here, when it didn't have one in earlier paragraphs?
  • "A mental institution where Corvo would have faced crazed inmates who are sensitive to sound was removed." 1)This feels really strange at the end of a paragraph about the pub. 2) Not entirely happy with the wording. What about "A mental institution where Corvo would have faced sound-sensitive patients was removed." ?
Music
  • "Daniel Licht composed the game's score—an ambient, violin-heavy presentation designed to represent 19th[-] century London" Missing hypen.
  • Songs are usually in quotation marks, not italics.
Reception
  • Lots of "saids" here. You could add some variety with "According to" and "stated", which I feel are fairly neutral.
  • "The story however was generally criticized."--> "The story, however, was generally criticized."
  • "Polygon noted that the deadly assassin Daud had no motive for seeking out redemption."

Refs

  • 22 seems off.
It's definitely a really interesting read. I'll add the rest of my comments tomorrow when I'm not so tired. :) Rapunzel-bellflower (talk) 01:53, 24 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Responses
Lead
    • "Dishonored's music score was produced by composer Daniel Licht to represent 1800s London." Not entirely sure what this means. Is it early 19th-century London or just plain 19th-century London?
      • The source just says 19th-century London but I struggled with the lead phrasing as I didn't want to use 19-century London twice in the same paragraph. DWB (talk) / Comment on Dishonored's FA nom! 18:12, 24 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
        • Totally understand. Personally, I would use "19th-century London" or even "London during the nineteenth century" for the sake of clarity. Rapunzel-bellflower (talk) 22:38, 24 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
    • "Dishonored received generally positive reviews, focused on the missions' individual narratives and the freedom available in completing them." Not entirely sure of the grammar of this. Maybe change "reviews, focused on" to "reviews, focusing on"?
    • "Criticism fell on the overarching narrative—which was considered predictable, and problems in controlling the player's character." Not sure what the em dash is doing here.
      • Changed to "Criticism fell on the overarching narrative, which was considered predictable," DWB (talk) / Comment on Dishonored's FA nom! 18:12, 24 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
    • " Following its release, the game won several awards including the 2012 Spike[...] " -->"Following its release, the game won several awards, including the 2012 Spike [...]"
Synopsis
    • "The Outsider is described as a mixture of God and the Devil, who imprints his mark on Corvo and imbues him with magical abilities,[34] and provides him with a mechanically altered human heart (April Stewart)[37] that tells Corvo secrets." --> Maybe "Described as a mixture of God and the Devil, the Outsider imprints his mark on Corvo, imbues him with magical abilities,[34] and provides him with a mechanically altered human heart [...]"
    • Not entirely happy with the use of em dashes in the character section. If it doesn't bother other people, then don't worry about it.
      • I think it'd have to either be the em dash or a comma, I personally think the dash creates better separation between an individual character/description and the next, but I'm happy to change it. DWB (talk) / Comment on Dishonored's FA nom! 18:12, 24 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
        • I can understand that. I think, more than the em dashes, it's the mass of characters introduced in one sentence. Is there a better way of grouping the characters, such as major and minor? Rapunzel-bellflower (talk) 22:38, 24 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
          • I have tried grouping them a little to break up the number of characters in one sentence. DWB (talk) / Comment on Dishonored's FA nom! 23:59, 24 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Development
    • "The designers conceived the Tallboys as town criers, and were later given stilts after Mitton noticed someone cleaning their office façade while wearing stilts, and the town crier role was replaced with loudspeakers throughout Dunwall." 1)This sentence seems to have two parts that don't quite flow. I would start a new sentence with "The town crier role[...]" Or you can add in a "however" like this --> "[...] wearing stilts; however, the town crier role [...]" 2)Also, bonus points for spelling façade correctly! ;)
      • I tried to rewrite it as so: "The designers conceived the Tallboys as town criers. Stilts were later added after Mitton noticed someone cleaning their office façade while wearing stilts; the town crier role was replaced with loudspeakers throughout Dunwall." @ 2), thanks :D
    • "Mitton suggested adding a phosphorus canister to the Tallboys' backs for aesthetic reasons, but Smith suggested whale-oil," Why does whale oil have a hypen here, when it didn't have one in earlier paragraphs?
    • "A mental institution where Corvo would have faced crazed inmates who are sensitive to sound was removed." 1)This feels really strange at the end of a paragraph about the pub. 2) Not entirely happy with the wording. What about "A mental institution where Corvo would have faced sound-sensitive patients was removed." ?
      • I reworded it as "Some features and ideas were removed during the design process, including a mental institution where Corvo would have faced crazed, sound-sensitive patients." and moved it to the Gameplay section's final paragraph where there is some discussion about level design. DWB (talk) / Comment on Dishonored's FA nom! 18:12, 24 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
        • Good idea. I think "crazed" is redundant, considering the location. Perhaps "agitated" to replace it or omitting it? Rapunzel-bellflower (talk) 22:38, 24 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Music
    • "Daniel Licht composed the game's score—an ambient, violin-heavy presentation designed to represent 19th[-] century London" Missing hypen.
    • Songs are usually in quotation marks, not italics.
Reception
    • Lots of "saids" here. You could add some variety with "According to" and "stated", which I feel are fairly neutral.
    • "The story however was generally criticized."--> "The story, however, was generally criticized."
    • "Polygon noted that the deadly assassin Daud had no motive for seeking out redemption."
Refs
More comments from Rapunzel-bellflower
Lead
  • "Dishonored is a 2012 stealth action adventure video game"-->"Dishonored is a 2012 stealth action-adventure video game" Missing hypen. Maybe a comma between stealth and action-adventure?
    • Added hyphen to action-adventure but I don't think the comma is necessary in this case, it's kind of like calling a film an action comedy. DWB (talk) / Comment on Dishonored's FA nom! 23:59, 24 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Corvo is aided in his quest by the Loyalists—a resistance group fighting to reclaim Dunwall, and the Outsider—a powerful being" I'm not sure if the em dashes aren't overpowering this sentence. I think regular old commas could work here. Or even replace the first em dash here with a comma and keep the second to emphasize the Outsider. Two in one sentence is overwhelming, though.
  • "Before the creation of Dunwall—inspired by late nineteenth century London and Edinburgh— the game was set to take place in medieval Japan, and seventeenth century London."-->"Before the creation of Dunwall—inspired by late nineteenth[-]century London and Edinburgh—the game was set to take place in medieval Japan, and seventeenth-century London." Missing hypens and space between em dash and sentence.
Gameplay
  • "The player can save their progress anywhere and the game includes a checkpoint save system."-->"The player can save their progress anywhere[,] and the game includes a checkpoint save system." Missing comma.
  • "Dishonored features role-playing game elements such as the ability to upgrade powers and to make moral choices with focus on non-linear consequences"-->"Dishonored features role-playing game elements[,] such as the ability to upgrade powers and to make moral choices with [a?] focus on non-linear consequences" Missing comma and possible missing "a".
  • "The game reacts to the chaos caused in scripted ways—such as changing dialogue, and dynamic ways—such as increasing the presence of rats and plagued citizens and adding new scenes." I'm not sure what's going on here. The use of em dashes here and in this sense makes reading it a little confusing. Perhaps removing the first em dash might help?
    • Changed to " The game reacts to the chaos caused in scripted ways, such as changing dialogue, and dynamic ways, such as increasing the presence of rats and plagued citizens and adding new scenes." DWB (talk) / Comment on Dishonored's FA nom! 23:59, 24 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Dishonored features six active powers, four passive powers or enhancements, and forty bone charms which grant the player supernatural perks[,] such as the ability to increase the duration of rat possession." Missing comma.
  • "When hiding behind an object, the player can lean around the sides to see the immediate area and eavesdrop, and as long as Corvo remains hidden[,] his enemies will not see him." Missing comma.
Synopsis
  • "The city is stricken with a plague spread by rats[,] which is killing the poor and isolating the rich." Missing comma.
  • Missing semicolons in the character list: "Other characters are Admiral Havelock (John Slattery)—a Loyalist leader and ally to Corvo,[32] Piero Joplin (Brad Dourif)—an inventor who builds Corvo's mask and supplies him with gadgets, Callista Curnow (Lena Headey)—the caretaker for the Empress' daughter Young Lady Emily (Chloë Grace Moretz)"-->"Other characters are Admiral Havelock (John Slattery)—a Loyalist leader and ally to Corvo;[32] Piero Joplin (Brad Dourif)—an inventor who builds Corvo's mask and supplies him with gadgets; Callista Curnow (Lena Headey)—the caretaker for the Empress' daughter Young Lady Emily (Chloë Grace Moretz);"
  • "In his cell, a letter from Empire Loyalists is smuggled to Corvo[,] and he is given the means to escape." Missing comma.
  • "Corvo is sent by the Loyalists to eliminate the conspirators behind the Lord Regent's plot[,] and the player is given the option to kill or otherwise neutralize Corvo's targets, the first of which is High Overseer Campbell." Missing comma.
Development
  • Caption for the picture in Design is missing a hypen: "Seventeenth-century London, afflicted by the Great Plague and the Great Fire, served as inspiration for the fictional city of Dunwall." Also, perhaps wikilink "Great Fire" and "Great Plague"?
  • "The city of Dunwall, designed to be a "contemporary and cool" "period piece", was inspired by late-19th and early-20th[-]century London and Edinburgh." Missing hypen. Also, not entirely sure if there should be a hypen between late and 19th.
    • Done. Not sure about the hyphen between late and 19th but if it is wrong I would assume the one between early and 20th is too? DWB (talk) / Comment on Dishonored's FA nom! 23:59, 24 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • "An anatomy expert helped ensure the morphology of character faces represented Great Britain, but maintained a sense of realism and political incorrectness." Did the anatomy expert maintain the sense of realism and un PC?
    • It's been a while since I added this info so I'm not 100%, on reading the sources I've changed it a little to read "An anatomy expert helped ensure the morphology of character faces represented Great Britain, [while Arkane] maintained a sense of realism and political incorrectness." but I'm not sure if this is a fitting replacement or not. DWB (talk) / Comment on Dishonored's FA nom! 23:59, 24 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • "For other technologies, designers conceptualized using 18th[-]century technology to build modern items and vehicles, and creating 18th[-]century items using modern tools." Missing hypens.
  • "After player-testing, the designers decided that a more direct navigation system was required." I understand what you mean by "player-testing", but is there any way to rephrase it? The phrasing seems a bit odd to me.
    • Is this better? It's a hard line to rephrase. "As a result of player-conducted testing of the game, the designers decided that a more direct navigation system was required." DWB (talk) / Comment on Dishonored's FA nom! 22:40, 26 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • " The Heart's gameplay role continued to change[,] and it continued to provide narration on its perceptions of different characters, which helped to reinforce the narrative themes and to differentiate the city's social classes in a more subtle alternative to having the characters provide expository dialogue." Missing comma.
  • Caption for the concept art in Design: "The design also includes a whale[-]oil tank on the character's back for aesthetic reasons." Missing hypen.
    • I thought we didn't want the hyphen in whale oil? Or does it change in context? Just want to make sure. DWB (talk) / Comment on Dishonored's FA nom! 23:59, 24 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
      • Yes, it does change in context. English is horrible like that. :) For example, Mary has a whale-oil lamp (two adjectives needing a hypen, & a noun), and she likes the way that whale oil (noun w/ single adjective, no hypen needed here) lights up a room. It's a silly sentence, but it's the only one I can think of right now. Rapunzel-bellflower (talk) 17:53, 26 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Release
  • "Celebrating the North American launch, Smith, Colantonio, and other Arkane Studios staff members from the company's office in Austin, Texas, signed copies of the game at a GameStop store." I'm guessing the store was local?
  • "The videos show the discovery of whale[-]oil fuel" Missing hypen.
    • Per the point above, I removed all the hyphens from your earlier point, I just want to be clear on if this should be readded based on this particular context. Done.
  • "A variety of pre-order incentives were announced for the game, including a Dishonored-themed, 72-card deck of Tarot cards, a USB whale[-]oil lamp, and a smartphone decal." Missing hypen.
  • "Additionally[,] Daud also has his own gadgets[,] such as stun mines, a concealed wrist-mounted bow, "Chokedust" grenade, which dazes enemies; and arc mines that disintegrate enemies." Missing commas.
  • "The Knife of Dunwall's plot runs parallel to that of Dishonored's, providing Daud's perspective on events, and introduces new locations[,] such as a whale slaughterhouse and Dunwall's affluent legal district." Missing comma.
Reception
  • "The first installment of the story[-]based DLC The Knife of Dunwall was praised for its level design, which encouraged exploration to find hidden content and alternative routes through areas." Missing hypen.
References
  • I don't recognize "Behind the Voice Actors", Game.on.net, Cinema Blend, & GameRanx. What makes them RSs?
Rapunzel-bellflower (talk) 22:38, 24 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
    • Games.on.net appears to be run by iiNet and Internode (ISP) which are Australian internet providers, both big companies, so I think it has a fair amount of reliable backing.
    • Gameranx is run by Complex, which I think makes it reliable.
    • Cinema Blend is a bit harder, according to the site it has 6 million unique hits per month and multiple offices (but this is self reporting), it reports general entertainment news and there is nothing obviously untrustworthy or questionable about it. It seems trustworthy to me but I can't offer anything beyond that.
    • BehindtheVoiceActors is a non-user edited site that adds green ticks to the images they have managed to confirm via credits, the cast member or their agent. I have contacted them in the past and can get the e-mail if you'd like. I've not had any questionable experience with teh info they provide, and in this case it is not contested information as it cast members are explicitly listed in the credits (unlike the Batman: Arkham games which just provide a list of cast without their role, leaving us to chase twitter posts :( ). Again, I believe it is reliable, but I cannot offer anything beyond that. DWB (talk) / Comment on Dishonored's FA nom! 23:59, 24 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I have addressed most of your points here, some require further info.DWB (talk) / Comment on Dishonored's FA nom! 23:59, 24 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Were there any more concerns you had Rapunzel-bellflower?DWB (talk) / Comment on Dishonored's FA nom! 21:32, 5 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
No. I'm very happy with the prose now. Personally, I don't think that I have enough experience with FA articles to be able to judge properly on whether or not it meets the FA criteria. I've written quite a few GAs, but this is...the second or third article I've commented on at FAN. For what it's worth, I think that the article meets the FA criteria now. It's comprehensive, nicely written, minor issues in the prose have been fixed, the commas have been returned to their rightful glory, the sources look reputable, and I agree with Hellknowz on the video clip. Rapunzel-bellflower (talk) 22:55, 5 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]


  • Comments - This is a very good article. I'm a big fan of the game, know it well, and made some minor fixes to the article. Some comments, before I fully support.
    • Why are there two citations in the infobox? The only things I usually cite in there are the release dates, yet you've picked out two names seemingly arbitrarily.
      • Fair enough, they might have been there from before there was prose to cite, but that prose does exist now, refs removed. DWB (talk) / Comment on Dishonored's FA nom! 23:13, 9 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
    • File:Dishonored Video Game - Gameplay.ogv shows off the powers really well in a short space of time. Why isn't it in WebM? Browser support is similar (if not better), and the VP8 codec is definitely better than Theora.
      • I thought we could only upload OGV. Is that something that can be requested be done? Only my HDD has died and so I've lost the original video :( DWB (talk) / Comment on Dishonored's FA nom! 23:13, 9 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
    • I prefer the plot to be cited. I know the game is the source, just citing it to chapter names would be sufficient.
    • Development - Antonov came to Arkane to work on The Crossing. I have a sneaky suspicion that quite a few Crossing elements ended up in Dishonored. I can't reliably source my suspicions, but it might be worthwhile mentioning The Crossing anyway - http://www.destructoid.com/interview-arkane-studios-on-dishonored-209027.phtml
      • This doesn't seem to be related at all, I don't see the benefit in saying they were working on a game that doesn't yet exist, and they don't say anything from that game influenced this one. DWB (talk) / Comment on Dishonored's FA nom! 00:19, 11 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
        • When introducing Antonov, it's something you could have mentioned, but that's your call. - hahnchen 03:14, 11 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
    • Development, Gameplay - Joe Houston's remarks on a single player's play through doesn't really sit with the rest of the section. It's not really anything to do with development, but his personal opinion on play styles.\
      • Eh, I found it an interesting insight into how a designer perceives the game should have been played versus the penalties of the freedom he had provided. I think it's an interesting piece of info. DWB (talk) / Comment on Dishonored's FA nom! 23:33, 11 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
    • Development, Design - Starts off rather abruptly. And what does "requiring them to extend pre-production until the end of the development cycle" mean?
      • Reorganized and rewrote. The latter part means that pre-production, instead of ending as development began, was an ongoing process as new requests were being made. DWB (talk) / Comment on Dishonored's FA nom! 23:33, 11 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
    • Development, Design - The Japan sentence comes out from nowhere. It would be better to begin with Japan and work your way through to 1666 and to the final design.
    • Development, Design - You use PCGamesN as a reference for the Japan->not Japan quote. But these alternatives might be better.
    • Development, Design - The PCGamesN piece references a lot of artistic inspirations, it might be namedropping a bit too much, but I think should include more in the article. Some of John Atkinson Grimshaw works are basically Dishonored right? I think it's a better picture than the Fire of London.
      • Done. DWB (talk) / Comment on Dishonored's FA nom! 23:33, 11 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
        • The caption should not be referencing the Great Fire of London. The source says that Grimshaw's (19th C) nighttime city scenes were an influence, it didn't specify London city scenes, but note that you've chosen a picture of Glasgow. - hahnchen 03:37, 12 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
          • How about this? I can't justify having two city images so i'm not going to replace the Tallboy one with another city one on top of the Grimshaw reference one. The alternative Grimshaw doesn't really show much, more boats than city. I hadn't realized the other one was meant to be of Glasgow.DWB (talk) / Comment on Dishonored's FA nom! 23:56, 12 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
            • I liked the Thames picture because it looks like Corvo and Samuel are in the boat at the front. There are more Grimshaw works at Commons, but the Glasgow picture does capture the mood well. The city scene you suggested could work with the Grimshaw in a vertical stack. Regarding the Tallboy image, as I mention below, I just think there are stronger visual elements that could be displayed. - hahnchen 02:13, 13 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
    • Development, Design - I don't think you need the Tallboy image. He's already in the video getting cut down. Dunwall is by far the game's biggest character, yet there is no decent visual representation of that in the article.
      • The video doesn't really give a clear representation, and the tallyboy receives a lot of discussion so the image is useful for that. The video does however show a reasonable amount of city, the only option would be to replace the burning London image with one of the city, but I think it will be hard to find a suitable image. DWB (talk) / Comment on Dishonored's FA nom! 23:33, 11 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
        • I just didn't find that picture that informative and thought a city panorama would better show off the culmination of all the influences mentioned earlier. Another idea is to get some character headshots, this would give a better indication of the visual style and would be more striking - the girl for example. - hahnchen 03:37, 12 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
    • Development, Music - This is mostly about the trailer. And I think trailers belong in the Release/Marketing section. If you think that leaves the Music section too light, try http://minnesota.publicradio.org/display/web/2013/02/07/daniel-licht-and-dishonored-on-top-score
      • I moved the sentence about the trailer reception to marketing, the rest is relevant to music. The source doesn't seem to contain info not already present.
        • Listen to the source. The bulk of the "music" section is about the music of the trailer, which I don't think features in the game. If you moved Drunken Whaler to Marketing, you could move the External Media template and add the separate Tales of Dunwall shorts too. - hahnchen 03:37, 12 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
          • I don't see the need in linking to every piece of external marketing material in the article body, and the length of the table with those additions would wreck the page layout. If they were necessary they could go in the External Links, but I don't think they are. DWB (talk) / Comment on Dishonored's FA nom! 23:56, 12 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
            • If you moved the trailer music to the marketing section, it would bulk it up so that you could link all the Tales shorts without breaking layout. The MPR source should give you material for the music section. I've never used the External Media template before, but there is an entire paragraph about a song that's available as a free download, so I think readers would find it useful. The Tales videos have an interesting visual style and would give readers a greater understanding of lore, I think the External Media template is a good alternative to External Links, especially for things discussed in the text. - hahnchen 02:13, 13 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
    • Reception - The pre-release reception is really heavy going. I don't think pre-release reception (ie hype) is all that important, and there needn't be a comprehensive list of the wins. Maybe just list the shows it attended and sum up the wins in each one with a sentence.
      • It's not hype, it demonstrates public perception before release and after, compare the pre-release perception of Aliens: Colonial Marines to the end result. DWB (talk) / Comment on Dishonored's FA nom! 00:19, 11 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
        • I was being a bit flippant with the hype label. Getting across that the trailers and demos were well received at shows is useful information, but I think explicitly listing each award is unnecessary detail. - hahnchen 03:14, 11 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
    • Reception - Does GameRankings actually add anything to the article that Metacritic doesn't? (I'm currently arguing against the default use of GameRankings at WT:VG, but it's something I've asked consistently at FAC since forever.)
      • I think it is good to have an alternative. Metacritic is just like any other company and its weighting is concealed, it'd be like only using Rotten Tomatoes to judge all films. If Metacritic were owned by an independent publicly funded organization like the BBC I wouldn't argue with you, but Metacritic is owned by a large media company. DWB (talk) / Comment on Dishonored's FA nom! 00:19, 11 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
        • GameRankings is owned by exactly the same large media company. - hahnchen 03:14, 11 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
          • Fair enough, I still think they're individual sites that aggregate different reviews, and I worry it is undue weight to only reference Metacritic when you consider the impact such a decision has had on entities like Obsidian, by rating Fallout New Vegas only slightly too low that they lost out on a bonus from Bethesda. If the ongoing discussion decides against gamerankings I don't mind removing it, but in this scenario at the moment I'd prefer to keep it included. DWB (talk) / Comment on Dishonored's FA nom! 23:33, 11 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
            • It's your decision, that's OK. The argument I gave at WT:VG is that we're giving it the weight that Bethesda give it. - hahnchen 03:37, 12 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
    • Reception - I added Edge to the GOTY wins. Arkane also won Edge's Studio of the Year, which you cite earlier. It might be worth a mention.
      • I think on its own, the Arkane Studios win is relevant only to Arkane Studios article. But done. DWB (talk) / Comment on Dishonored's FA nom! 00:19, 11 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
    • Reception - The awards table mostly shows awards from industry bodies such as BAFTA and AIAS. But it also lists IGN and Inside Gaming. Why single those out and not all the ones listed in prose?
      • The majority of the prose ones are just Best of lists, the IGN and Inside Gaming ones presented themselves as awards, so the alternative is those are omitted from the table as the preferable option to adding the list style rankings to the table. DWB (talk) / Comment on Dishonored's FA nom! 23:33, 11 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
        • I consider website/magazine awards to be not-really-awards, but you have an argument for how the article is structured, so that's fine. I didn't do a comprehensive search of award wins, but did find that you missed GameSpot.[2][3] Gamespot's 2013 redesign looks to have killed the awards pages, so you might need archive.org. - hahnchen 03:37, 12 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
          • I've added GameSpot's, and removed IGN and Inside Gaming from the table. DWB (talk) / Comment on Dishonored's FA nom! 23:56, 12 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
    • DLC - I'm judging the article's comprehensiveness on its coverage of the main game, not of the DLC. For the DLC coverage to be comprehensive, it would need to split off into its own article like BioShock Infinite: Burial at Sea or Call of Duty: Black Ops II downloadable content. I'd prefer the development and reception of the DLC presented together at the end of the article (but am OK with it as it is).
      • I don't think there is enough content to warrant a separate article, and that Call of Duty one needs to be merged or deleted, it's just a list of items and 5 sentences that could fit into the existing article. Bioshock has a better excuse in that it has a whole narrative focus and separate development info. DWB (talk) / Comment on Dishonored's FA nom! 00:19, 11 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
        • I think it could be expanded into a separate article, but as I said, I'm judging the article for its coverage of the main game and the article passes. - hahnchen 03:14, 11 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
      • Phew! hahnchen 23:03, 9 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Further Comments
    • Can you replace the Forbes contributor pieces? I started discussion at WT:VG/RS after spotting the Forbes GOTY reference (which is fine), but only spotted the contributor references now. Possible alternatives - [4][5] The Tales of Dunwall credits can just be sourced to a primary source.
    • Citing SyFy's synopsis of the Face Off episode may give interested readers further information.[6]
    • Rat Assassin is a Fruit Ninja clone, and almost every source mentions this. It might be worth mentioning it too.
    • A reception sentence for Rat Assassin (reliable sources - Modojo and Digital Spy) could round off its coverage.
    • Each of the Tales of Dunwall series won a Gold Clio Award for Branded Entertainment in 2013.[7]
K, i think I have addressed everything. DWB (talk) / Comment on Dishonored's FA nom! 15:03, 16 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I've already supported below, a few more things that might be worth noting -
  • Per the MOS, images shouldn't be facing off the page. The existing image, to have it where it is and maintain switching sides of images, required it to be facing another way. DWB (talk) / Comment on Dishonored's FA nom! 22:08, 17 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • It's more aesthetically pleasing for portraits to stare towards the text. But a mirror image is not the same as an image, and some may consider it misleading. It's not something I care about, but consider image choice and placement if someone does. - hahnchen 23:04, 17 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • The article summary is that there isn't much difference between them, and I feel that it's getting into a level of technical detail that would be excessive. Nice idea othough. DWB (talk) / Comment on Dishonored's FA nom! 22:08, 17 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support - One of the best video game articles on Wikipedia, for one of the most interesting games released in a long while. Any comments unaddressed are stylistic preferences which do not affect the featured article criteria. - hahnchen 00:20, 17 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Media review

There are seven files in this article as of 19:32, 18 March 2014 (UTC). Three have issues that need addressing (items 4, 5, and 6):

  1. File:Dishonored box art Bethesda.jpg is a non-free image. It has a proper fur and its usage is within the boundaries of the NFCC.
  2. File:Dishonored Video Game - Gameplay.ogv is a non-free video. It has a proper fur. Its acceptability in regards to the NFCC has been questioned, but I am of the opinion that it is not singificantly different from the use of non-free audio clips in articles about songs. My own personal biases aside (I am for the removal of of all non-free files on all WMF projects), this does meet NFCC criteria 2, 3b, and 8, as the policy is written.
  3. File:Chloë Moretz 5, 2011.jpg is freely licensed. The source is a Flickr account, and a cursory investigation does not reveal evidence of Flickrwashing.
  4. File:Harvey-Smith-(Flipped-Horizonal).jpg is freely licensed. The source is a Flickr account, and a cursory investigation does not reveal evidence of Flickrwashing. I am of the opinion that horizontal flipping qualifies as distortion significant enough to remove the image's encyclopedic value. Please replace this image with either the unflipped version or with another image of the individual, such as this one, where he is facing to the right without the use of horizontal flipping.
    • Yes, of course you're able to crop it. The issue with mirroring is that it is a misrepresentation: You're presenting the left side of his face in a manner that implies that it is the right side of his face. Cropping doesn't present such an issue. Sven Manguard Wha? 18:48, 20 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
  5. File:Grimshaw-NightfallThames.jpg is licensed PD-art:Old-100. The image does not have a source, which never acceptable. As such, I have nominated the image for deletion on Commons. Looking at the zoomed in version, it appears to be a scan from a book. Another version of this painting that does have a source, or this image if he source is provided, would of course be acceptable.
  6. File:Dishonored-Tallboy-Concept.jpg is a non-free image. While it would ordinarily be acceptable as an ullustration of one of the game's iconic characters, the presence of the video, which also depicts that character, puts this afoul of NFCC criteria 3a (Minimal usage: Minimal number of items). The presence of a bow in the hand of the depicted figure indicates that this is an illustration from late-stage development, meaning that it doesn't have encyclopedic value in depicting the early development process or how the design has changed over time (which would have been the other route to take in justifying the use of this image).
  7. File:Michael Madsen2.jpg is freely licensed. The source is a Flickr account, and a cursory investigation does not reveal evidence of Flickrwashing.

As of right now, this article fails the media review. Apologies for not doing it sooner. Sven Manguard Wha? 19:32, 18 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Leeds City Council has a scan of the Grimshaw. [8]. Feel free to use other images though. - hahnchen 21:50, 18 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
If they're selling the scan Hahnchen, does that not mean it#'d have to be used as a Non-Free image? DWB (talk) / Comment on Dishonored's FA nom! 22:05, 18 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Also to both of you, any suggestions for replacing the tallboy image then? DWB (talk) / Comment on Dishonored's FA nom! 22:17, 18 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
2D scans are OK for Commons if the original work is PD - commons:Commons:When to use the PD-Art tag. - hahnchen 23:16, 18 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I have updated the Deletion Nominated image with Hahnchen's Leeds Museum link. DWB (talk) / Comment on Dishonored's FA nom! 21:06, 19 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Alright. I've closed the deletion nomination on that one. It's fine now that there's a source. Sven Manguard Wha? 18:48, 20 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Also I have found the following images to replace the Tallboy, I would appreciate any feedback.
[9]
There's a bunch of character art about halfway down the page, "Ctrl+F The Beautiful Hidden Paintings Of Dishonored"
Some city artDWB (talk) / Comment on Dishonored's FA nom! 21:50, 19 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not really sure why you want to replace it with another non-free image (I don't think it needs it), but if you're going to do so, I would recommend an image of an element that doesn't appear in the video at all. The Heart and the the Hound's Pit are both good options. Barring that, I would go with the character concept art before the city concept art, because the city is more prevalent of an element than the characters in the video. Sven Manguard Wha? 18:53, 20 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
I think the design is such a strong aspect of the game, as evidenced by the lengthy design section, that it needs some kind of example. I will take a look at the images and see what fits with your suggestion. DWB (talk) / Comment on Dishonored's FA nom! 21:38, 20 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Sven Manguard, I've changed the Smith photo and removed the NFC image, the ones I can find do not appear distinctive enough that they could not be described in text alone. I think this meets the image issues. DWB (talk) / Comment on Dishonored's FA nom! 11:37, 22 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, everything is good now. Passed media review. Sven Manguard Wha? 22:06, 22 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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