Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Falstaff (opera)/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Ian Rose via FACBot (talk) 12:18, 27 May 2015 [1].

Falstaff (opera)[edit]

Nominator(s): Tim riley talk 14:09, 11 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

This nomination is a valediction to the late John Webber, who edited WP as Viva-Verdi. He and I worked separately and then together on upgrading the article, and I assumed he and I would co-nominate it for FAC. But I am sad to say that John died in March. He knew a hundred times more about Verdi than I ever shall, but I take it on myself to nominate the article in both our names. It had a very thorough and helpful peer review, and I hope it will be judged worthy of promotion to FA. – Tim riley talk 14:09, 11 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Gerda[edit]

I share the sentiments expressed above, grateful for the immense contribution of Viva-Verdi towards our love of Verdi's music. For the moment a first comment: The lead deals in some detail with the neglect, without first positively saying something about the characteristics of the work, such as ensembles vs. arias. More to come. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:40, 11 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

  • A thought: Otello is mentioned and linked before the list of Shakespeare's plays touched by Verdi, - I would still like a link to the opera rather than the play Othello in that list, because in the opera's article, the play appears soon, in the play's article, you need another click. Same for Macbeth (opera) vs. Macbeth.
    • A good point. I'll ponder this. If others have views they will be gratefully received. Tim riley talk 20:38, 14 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • I think a subsection "Libretto" (under "Composition") might be an idea, and in the same perhaps first the necessity to shorten, then modifications between the (missing) first version and the final.
    • That could work, but I'm not certain it would clarify matters. Shall ponder. Tim riley talk 20:38, 14 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • I realize in reading that we have lovely details about the collaboration of librettist and composer but I would enjoy more details on the music itself and how it compares to earlier works by Verdi.
    • I think this is covered as much as a mere encyclopaedia article can cover it. It is indeed tempting to go into more detail, but I really think we should forbear, to keep the article reasonably concise. Tim riley talk 20:38, 14 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
      • I will not (for lack of intimate knowledge) write four supplementing articles, as He was despised for Messiah, but think the music deserves at least as much coverage as the performance history ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:26, 14 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
        • Well, I'll try sketching something out, though I shall sorely feel the absence of Viva-Verdi. If I can work up something useful I'll put it in. Tim riley talk 10:53, 15 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Looking forward to more time with the music and the article, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 15:50, 11 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Source review[edit]

  • Some very minor tweaks here, prior to the review. A few other minor points:
  • A couple of the FNs (1 & 9, for example) have the opening part of the quote mark as part of the link, and the closing part outside the link. Others have them both as part of the link, so that's the best way to go.
  • FN13 Location needed
    • FN13, being a book ref, is now just the author and page number with full details (including location) in the Sources section. Tim riley talk 10:19, 15 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • FN21 I think the formatting needs a tweak here: it looks like Shakespeare's first name is ed...
  • FN51 (Civetta). Are there any other divisions that could be used, such as chapter?
    • Done. Is there any MoS guidance on how to deal with such pageless online books? Tim riley talk 10:19, 15 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
      • Yes, WP:Page numbers says "If there are no page numbers, whether in ebooks or print materials, then you can use other means of identifying the relevant section of a lengthy work, such as the chapter number or the section title." So, as long as there is some indication as far as you can possibly and sensibly provide it, then that is all OK. - SchroCat (talk) 10:29, 15 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
        • Good. Thanks a lot for that, which I'll bookmark. Tim riley talk 10:39, 15 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • FN65 Do you have the page number?

- SchroCat (talk) 18:03, 14 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

  • Thank you for these points, SchroCat. I ought to have taken a little more time to check that John's and my referencing styles were consistent. I shall go away and refine with a most critical eye and report back. Tim riley talk 20:38, 14 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

All good for me, in terms of the source review. I will return for a prose review shortly. Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 14:45, 15 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Curly Turkey[edit]

  • Some hairsplits and miscellaneous comments:
  • Are you aware of {{efn}} and {{Notelist}}? "#tag:ref" is pretty ugly.
    • I've used the "efn" when working with other editors who prefer it. But it results in "a", "b" etc for footnotes, which no other work of reference known to me ever does. But now you've pointed me in that general direction, I am interested in the "notelist-lr" option for future articles: that would produce a professional-looking format, and would distinguish more obviously between footnotes and citations. Thank you. Tim riley talk 09:40, 15 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • many studio recordings and live tapings: or "many studio and live recordings"? By 2015 I'm sure there've been digital live recordings?
  • He wrote of "the large number of years in my age": one of my pet peeves—read aloud, the quote is not introduced as a quote, and thus the switch from third person to first referring to the same person is jarring.
  • Yet, as his biographer Mary Jane Phillips-Matz notes, "Verdi could not hide his delight at the idea of writing another opera".; "Yes, Sir! A fugue ... and a buffa fugue", which "could probably be fitted in".; "I will leave the theatre, and [Ricordi] will have to take the score away".: are these quotations punctuated here in the sources? I get the feeling they are, in which case the punctuation shuld go inside the quotemarks.
    • I'm afraid I really don't know. This is how Viva-Verdi transcribed it, and I have no reason to think it inaccurate. Tim riley talk 09:40, 15 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • an English critic, R A Streatfeild,: MOS:SPACEINITS says: "An initial is followed by a full stop (period) and a space". There's nothing on the talkpage, whic makes me suspect the page should be moved.
    • This is one of those cases where the MoS bears no relation to reality, as in its universally-ignored rule that we don't link from within quotations, or that we have to change an author's title if it doesn't fit the MoS (we had to change Wodehouse's chosen title Leave it to Psmith to Leave It to Psmith). In British usage, full stops after people's initials have been old hat for decades, long dropped by HM Government, the BBC etc. I know US (perhaps I should say U. S.) usage is keen on "periods", but for present purposes local usage might be left undisturbed. Tim riley talk 09:40, 15 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • official ticket prices were thirty times greater than usual: do we know what those prices were? It might be worth throwing them in an endnote.
    • It isn't in my sources. I think it was I and not Viva-Verdi who added this, so I think I must conclude that we don't know. I'll add this to my list of things to research when next at the British Library, and will footnote it if I find the facts. Tim riley talk 09:40, 15 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
      • In fact it was in my sources after all, and I have just added a note as suggested. Tim riley talk 13:32, 17 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • the applause for Verdi and the cast lasted an hour: did it really? That sounds almost beyond plausibility.
    • It's widely attested in contemporary press reports and in the book sources. In our (or at least my) own time, Kenneth MacMillan's Romeo and Juliet was applauded for forty minutes or so at its Covent Garden premiere in 1965. Tim riley talk 09:40, 15 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Renascence: you wouldn't prefer a term more familiar to more readers?
    • I doubt if any reader interested in this opera is likely to struggle with the word, and it didn't cause comment at peer review, but I'd be happy to consider any suggested alternative that conveys the same import.
      • Well, I wouldn't suggest anything that wasn't obvious, and I only bring it up in the spirit that Wikipedia is aimed at a broad general audience. Curly Turkey ¡gobble! 10:10, 15 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Curly Turkey ¡gobble! 00:57, 15 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Image review[edit]

  • File:Boito-1893.jpg: in what country was this published?
    • Britain. I'll add it to the details on the image page. Tim riley talk 09:40, 15 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • File:Verdi_aux_répétitions_de_Falstaff_1894.jpg needs a US PD tag
  • File:Verdi-La_Scala_premiere_of_Falstaff_1893.jpg: where was this first published?
    • I'm afraid I don't know, and for sadly obvious reasons can't ask. I've removed it. Luckily, we are still well provided for with images at this part of the narrative. Tim riley talk 09:40, 15 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • File:Boito-Verdi_-_Falstaff_libretto.jpg needs a US PD tag, but it's not clear that the existing tag applies - who is the author? Nikkimaria (talk) 01:47, 15 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • As with the second image, above, I've replaced it with an EnWP "PD-US-1923-abroad" version. Tim riley talk 09:40, 15 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
      • Thank you, as ever, Nikkimaria, for your customary care in reviewing. Tim riley talk 09:40, 15 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

From Smerus[edit]

Support, definitely. Alas I don't have much time at present for profound comments (or perhaps that's just as well) but this seems to me a magnificent article and a memorable tribute to User:Viva-Verdi. Here are some notes so jejune that they scarcely even amount to nit-picks: -

  • Shouldn't the first mention of Falstaff in the lead (end of para 1) be linked to Falstaff?
    • Some kind colleague is ahead of me here, and has done the deed. Tim riley talk 12:10, 17 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Very trivial point but I don't think Verdi considered 'La Tempesta' for a moment before rejecting it - the offer came from Benjamin Lumley who was a poor prospect for actually paying - maybe "he was offered 'The Tempest' " is a bit more like it. (Halevy took up the offer and it was a flop).
  • In 'composition' - link to Brentford?
  • In 'premieres' - you don't need to repeat 'his publisher' before Ricordi.
  • Just to be boring - isn't 'Renascence' a bit affected? - I feel 'Re-assessment' or 'Renaissance' would be better - but that's only me. De gustibus and all that.
    • You're the second reviewer to think this. I'll try to find a plainer word. I don't quite go for 'Re-assessment' or 'Renaissance', but will have a good rummage in the thesaurus. Tim riley talk 12:10, 17 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Best, --Smerus (talk) 12:44, 15 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Very far from nit-picks, and I shall look forward to working through them. Thank you very much indeed, Smerus. Tim riley talk 15:49, 15 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
PS Actually I see that Halevy's La Tempesta (libretto Scribe and Petro Giannone) was premiered in 1850, (8th June) so Verdi must have been offered the libretto (if at all) before that year, and the source cited is incorrect. Lumley brought Verdi to London for I Masnadieri in 1847 and it was a complete flop. Until that year, Lumley had pretended that Mendelssohn had agreed to set La Tempesta (he hadn't). The death of Mendelssohn in 1847 gave Lumley a lucky escape. I am unaware of any evidence that Lumley offered the libretto to Verdi, and personally (for what it is worth) I strongly doubt it. This source (p. 61) says "Exactly what happened between approximately 4 November 1847, the date of Mendelssohn’s death, and January 1850, when Halévy was contracted as composer, is unclear." So if it were up to me, I would omit any mention of La tempesta in the article.--Smerus (talk) 16:16, 15 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Postscript duly noted, and acted on, along with excellent earlier points. Thank you so much! Tim riley talk 12:10, 17 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Cliftonian thoughts[edit]

Support from Cliftonian: I'm sure John Webber would have been extremely disappointed by my ignorance of Verdi and Sir John Falstaff, but I look forward to learning about them by reviewing this article. I did not know John but I'm sure he would have been very touched by this tribute from you, Tim.

  • I have copyedited in bits and pieces throughout; feel free to put back anything you don't like
  • A nitpick, but in the lead we refer to "Henry IV, parts 1 and 2" and in the body we refer to "Henry IV, Part 1 and Part 2". Either is fine in my view but we should be consistent
  • "moved from act 2 scene 2 to scene 1" we mean to act 2 scene 1, or scene 1 of the entire opera?
  • Santa'Agata or Sant'Agata?
  • We say that Maurel wouldn't perform in Germany, then that the production was "taken by the original company, led by Maurel, to Genoa, Rome, Venice, Trieste, Vienna and Berlin". Had Maurel dropped his reservations about performing in Germany, or should we mention who sang in Berlin in his place?
    • It's foonoted, but I could put in the main text if wanted. Tim riley talk 12:10, 17 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The first performances abroad" For most readers Italy itself will be "abroad". Perhaps "outside Italy"?
    • Hmm. In context I think "abroad" is OK, but I've changed as you suggest. Tim riley talk 12:10, 17 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Fenton, a young gentleman—but did he mess in the wardroom or the cockpit with the midshipmen?
    • Ambiguous. In the play he's a young, broke member of minor nobility on the make. Here's he's an all purpose handsome hero, but now I look at the original score there are few descriptions of the characters, and "gentleman" comes from the published Shakespeare dramatis personae. Tim riley talk 12:10, 17 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • The first paragraph of the "Music and drama" section needs a citation inline.

I'm sorry not to have more to add, but the article is really that good. Thorough and engaging even to one such as me with next-to-no background knowledge. Thank you for yet another enlightening and enjoyable read. My comments above do not detract from the support I am happy to give above. —  Cliftonian (talk)  19:04, 15 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you very much, Cliftonian, for these comments. Some good catches in there, for which I'm grateful. Tim riley talk 12:10, 17 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Cg2p0B0u8m (talk)[edit]

  • The Italians have reciprocated with their lead photo of Fugère as Sir John Falstaff....
    • Excellent! I laughed aloud. I'll just satisfy myself that it complies with WP's stringent copyright rules - which at first sight I think it does - and then I'll add it somewhere in the article. Delectable! Tim riley talk 18:49, 21 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
      • Now posted into the info-box. Superb! Thank you, mon général! Tim riley talk 19:20, 21 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Is the link to Victor Maurel's 1907 recording of "Quand'ero paggio", at archive.org at the bottom of the page working? If not (it didn't appear to me), you could use the Gallica link (http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k128770f.r=Maurel+falstaff.langEN)
  • and perhaps the 'List of performances of Falstaff by Verdi on Operabase' link should say "List of recent and future performances.."
    • Definitely. I shall add accordingly. Tim riley talk 18:40, 21 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
      • Ah! I can't: this is a WP template, which one can't tamper with. Tim riley talk 18:52, 21 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Conception : Could we have a date for Rossini's comment about Verdi's lack of comedy?
  • Composition : is reiterated (He reiterated this idea ...) the right word?
    • I think so. Happy to entertain alternatives, though. Tim riley talk 18:19, 21 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • The cast table needs a chorus : the IMSLP score says Borghesi e Poplani - Servi di Ford - Mascherata di folleti, di fate, di strehge, ecc
    • It does indeed, and so does my facsimile score of the 1893 original. I'll translate and add. A good catch – thank you! Tim riley talk 18:19, 21 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
  • Act 2 : when I read 'hamper' I thought of picnics. Shakespeare simply says basket, Kobbe (H) says a 'big washbasket'Cg2p0B0u8m (talk) 22:32, 19 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
    • A very fair point. I'll tweak the prose. Mind you, Kobbe's "washbasket" isn't a word I have ever heard, and the OED mentions it only in passing. Laundry basket is the phrase we need. Tim riley talk 18:19, 21 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Excellent! Thank you for these points, which I shall enjoy working through. Tim riley talk 18:57, 20 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Congratulations to you, and to Viva Verdi, for this fine article! Cg2p0B0u8m (talk) 22:24, 25 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Support from Wehwalt[edit]

Support Bravo! Very well done indeed. Just a few comments:

Lede
  • Consider splitting the first paragraph after "Milan" as there seems a change of theme.
  • The approximate date of Toscanini's efforts to revive it would be good to include, I think.
Conception
  • "In his tragic operas Verdi introduced moments of comedy in, for instance, Un ballo in maschera and La forza del destino" this feels a bit awkward. Perhaps "He had included moments of comedy even in his tragic operas; for example in ..."
Composition
  • When did the public learn of Falstaff? Can anything be said about the public reaction then?
Premieres
  • "After Verdi and Strepponi left Milan on 2 March, Casa Ricordi, encouraged the composer to go to the planned Rome performance of 14 April, to maintain the momentum and excitement that the opera had generated." The comma after "Ricordi" should probably go. This sentence is a bit awkward.
  • "The first performances outside Italy" perhaps add "Kingdom of" before Italy to cover yourself on Trieste.
  • I would mention Verdi's death at some point; if it can be tied in to the relative lull in performances of Falstaff, all the better.
Act 3
  • "and together they and their allies have been watching secretly. " I would strike "together". I'm not sure what it adds.
Music
  • Through-composed should probably be linked in the main text, not in a footnote.
  • Shouldn't "A. Herring"be italicised?
Not my favourite opera, but I enjoyed the article very much.--Wehwalt (talk) 02:53, 23 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you very much for this. I've acted on all your suggestions. (I must confess I had to look up the import of your comments about Trieste.) Your input and support are greatly appreciated. Tim riley talk 08:49, 24 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Others[edit]

Support An excellent article and a worthy FA in its own right. That this is in tribute to John Webber only adds to the experience of those here. - SchroCat (talk) 19:28, 15 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Support Yes as Schro says, this really is a top notch article on a core article in this field. A great read and a fine tribute too.♦ Dr. Blofeld 18:31, 16 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks to SchroCat and Dr B for the support and kind comments. At Gerda's suggestion I've tacked on 500 more words on the music, which I hope will also command your approval if you happen to revisit the page. Tim riley talk 12:10, 17 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Support. I copy-edited this article and made various comments there that were resolved by Tim riley. This is an excellent treatment of the history, text, music and criticism of this opera. I believe it is some of the best work on Wikipedia, and I congratulate Tim riley on another excellent piece of work. I heartily support this for promotion. -- Ssilvers (talk) 16:37, 17 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you very much for the comments, the support and the copy-editing. In the circumstances I am anxious to do justice not only to the subject but to my late collaborator. Your input, Ssilvers, is most gratefully received. Tim riley talk 16:46, 17 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Johnbod comment Great stuff! The only thing I can think is that it would be nice to have a sort of canon tables relating the opera's scenes to the Shakespeare plays, mainly MWoW, at least as far as the action goes, not odd passages. Johnbod (talk) 17:45, 17 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

That's a most attractive idea. We could make it collapsible so that them as wanted to see it could and them as didn't wouldn't have to. I'll make a start on that, but I think perhaps the present review can go ahead regardless. Tim riley talk 18:09, 17 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Phew! I’ve made a start (on paper at this stage), but it’s going to take a long time. But I think it will be worth the work. Just don’t expect to see it any time soon! Tim riley talk 12:01, 19 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Oh, sorry! Perhaps foolishly, I thought it would be fairly straightforward, with the opera not having very many scenes. It certainly isn't necessary for FA status. I'd help, but I don't have time at the moment. Do take your time. On a quick consult with Prof. Google, this had more detail than the average comparison. Johnbod (talk) 14:24, 19 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
No apology required, Johnbod! It's an excellent idea, and I shall enjoy working on it at leisure. I have one major crib to hand already. Tim riley talk 15:41, 19 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Support: I have been watching this article from afar (long ago it was on my "possibly to do" list}. I think that in short order Tim has converted a promising article into a gem, and have no hesitation in supporting its elevation. Great work. Brianboulton (talk) 23:20, 18 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you very much, Brian, for your input at peer review, your help with sources, and your support and kind words here. Tim riley talk 07:43, 19 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Support -- I missed this owing to real life, but I took the time to read this today at the BFI museum during a rare day off. I wasn't disappointed and you have done Verdi proud I'm sure. CassiantoTalk 18:42, 21 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you, Cassianto! Carry on Up the Merry Wives, you know! Tim riley talk 18:55, 21 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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