Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Frank Borman/archive1
- The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.
The article was promoted by Laser brain via FACBot (talk) 3 November 2019 [1].
Frank Borman[edit]
This article is about Frank Borman. At age 91, he is the oldest living astronaut. He commanded Apollo 8, the first Moon mission, and he and his crewmates became the first people to watch the Earth rise over the horizon. The article has recently passed a A-class review, with source and image reviews. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 20:31, 8 September 2019 (UTC)
Comments by Wehwalt[edit]
- "and moved to the better climate of Tucson, Arizona," surely an opinion? Ever been to Tucson in July?
- No, I've never been to Arizona. The source says that the dry climate was thought to be congenial, which is something I've encountered in other articles relating to the American West. Courtney Ryan told me the weather was nice there. (Has a look at the weather today) 33 °C (91 °F). Looks beautiful. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 03:09, 9 September 2019 (UTC)
- My sister lived there for a few years. I think I visited in June which was bad enough. Sorry about the tone.--Wehwalt (talk) 07:37, 9 September 2019 (UTC)
- "He then went to Mansfield Junior High, where he tried out for the American football team." I would strike "American". The link is sufficient disambiguation.
- "Despite the fact that every one of the four forward passes he attempted was incomplete, the team went on to win the state championship." I would say "each" rather than "every one". He only threw four passes the whole season? or just in the game where he replaced the first string QB? What year in HS did this happen in?
- In his final year. I will double-check the source. I don't think the forward pass was as common back then. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 03:09, 9 September 2019 (UTC)
- The forward pass is not common in high school football in general, relative to the professional level that we are conditioned for. Kees08 (Talk) 04:24, 9 September 2019 (UTC)
- In his final year. I will double-check the source. I don't think the forward pass was as common back then. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 03:09, 9 September 2019 (UTC)
- "His first ride in an airplane was when he was five years old.[2]" I might say "had been" rather than "was".
- A year when he joined the Army would be useful.
- "but his skills were insufficient to qualify even at that level." I would cut "to qualify". I might even cut "even at that level".
- "had equal seniority with those graduating the United States Naval Academy, " I would insert "from" after graduating as more common in AmEng.
- "and was planning to commence a liberal arts degree at the University of Arizona." the "commence a ..." doesn't sound right in AmEng. This was presumably graduate school, so I might frame it as "and was planning to attend graduate school at the University of Arizona" or some such.
- It seems a bit odd he was assigned to West Point when the USAFA was starting up.
- Borman entered West Point in 1946, and graduated in 1950. The first USAFA class did not enter until 1955, and did not graduate until 1959, nine years after Borman. From memory you could still opt for the USAF as late as 1968. In addition to the 3,200 cadets and midshipmen who opted for the Air Force between 1949 and 1959, another 1,000 joined between 1959 and 1968. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 03:09, 9 September 2019 (UTC)
- Sure (I know a retired Air Force lieutenant colonel who attended West Point in the 1970s and was allowed to opt because his father was Air Force) but you'd think the Air Force would want to send its officers to teach at the budding USAFA rather than West Point.
- Borman entered West Point in 1946, and graduated in 1950. The first USAFA class did not enter until 1955, and did not graduate until 1959, nine years after Borman. From memory you could still opt for the USAF as late as 1968. In addition to the 3,200 cadets and midshipmen who opted for the Air Force between 1949 and 1959, another 1,000 joined between 1959 and 1968. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 03:09, 9 September 2019 (UTC)
- "and signed his first house-building contract," This doesn't sound AmEng. Home construction contract?
- "on the Dilbert Dunker at the US Navy school at the Naval Air Station Pensacola in Florida and on Galveston Bay.[38] " I would cut "the US Navy school at". I'm not sure it adds anything.
- "Donald Slayton" Why call him Donald rather than Deke?
- Re his Apollo 1 testimony before Congress, I would use his quote to the effect that the question is whether you trust us or you don't. I can't find the exact wording offhand but I could probably search through my references if need be.
- "and moved to the better climate of Tucson, Arizona," surely an opinion? Ever been to Tucson in July?
- Why single out Rumsfeld in particular? There were starting to be a number of space skeptics in Congress by then.
- "Borman was forced to confront one of the root causes of the disaster: the natural tension between getting the job done on time and building the spacecraft as well as possible. It involved arguments with test pilot Scott Crossfield and fellow astronauts like John Young." This seems rather vague.
- " entering a lunar orbit before returning to Earth." I would cut the "a".
- I might say something about the risk of the Apollo 8 mission as no LM meant no lifeboat. Also about the intense training required given the mission flew only four months after Low's proposal was tentatively accepted, and was contingent on Apollo 7 being successful.
- "capable of being quickly changed from passenger to cargo aircraft. " I might say "converted" rather than "changed"
- Changed, I mean converted. I think another editor asked for the opposite. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:42, 9 September 2019 (UTC)
- In the A-class review, I said Maybe converted instead of changed? I see changed as going back and forth as many times as needed, while converted is more permanent. Maybe my grasp of words is flawed. of being quickly changed from passenger, to which you replied Often between each flight. I still hold that changed seems better if its a back-and-forth thing and converted seems more permanent, but don't really care either way. Kees08 (Talk) 03:34, 13 September 2019 (UTC)
- Changed, I mean converted. I think another editor asked for the opposite. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:42, 9 September 2019 (UTC)
- "In May 1975, Borman was elected President and chief operating officer. " Is this elective or in some way appointive? I might also lower case the "president".
- Elected. Added "by the board".
- The crisis years at Eastern were extensively covered by The New York Times back in the day, as Eastern was for many purposes a local company because of its operations at Newark. For example this and this and this. I would suggest that these would be good sources for the Eastern years beyond bios and the Sun-Sentinel article (though, of course, the SS is in the Miami area, where Eastern was actually based). I'd like to see these taken into account.
- Speaking of which, the Sun-Sentinel article says "Eastern's profits began to slide almost as soon as deregulation began; 1979 was the last profitable year for the airline until 1985." but you say that "Profits jumped to a record $67.3 million in 1978,[105] and Eastern went through the four most profitable years in its history." and also that there was a profit in 1984.
- "It was a personal defeat, but hardly a financial disaster; he received a severance payment of $900,000, and drew a consultant's fee of $150,000 a year from Texas Air until 1991.[105]" I would suggest adding "for him" after "disaster". There were many people who did not come out so well. He also seems to have been vice chair of Texas Air, according to the NYT articles I cited.
- Added "for him". (The firm I used to work for had to retrench hundreds of employees to pay for the golden parachutes of all the senior executives when it went private. Fortunately my own severance agreement was very generous, possibly because I had written it myself several years before.) The initial intention was that Borman would run Eastern for Texas Air as vice chairman, but this did not occur. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 20:30, 10 September 2019 (UTC)
CommentsSupport by CPA-5[edit]
- so he volunteered to join the Army, with the aim of qualifying for college Replace "with the aim of qualifying" with "intending to quality".
- Despite the fact that every one of the four Replace "Despite the fact that" with "although".
- it could be sent all the way to the Moon, entering lunar Remove "all the way".
- He sold the corporate jet, and, as at North American You mean "a"?
- with an eight percent raise in 1977, and then a five-year Variable Earnings Program (VEP) You mean "rise"?
That's anything from me. Let's hope that this article get promoted before his death. Cheers. CPA-5 (talk) 11:36, 11 September 2019 (UTC)
Sources review[edit]
- No spotchecks carried out
- Links: all links to sources are working, per the checker tool
- Formats
- Ref 102: The publisher is given as "West Point". This the "Report to the Secretary of the Army by the Special Commission on the United States Military Academy" – surely, the academy itself isn't the publisher of this report into itself?
- Ref 137: Time, unitalicised (see 89, 127, 136)
- Refs 154, 155: is "This American Life" the actual publisher: or is WBEZ?
- Quality/reliability
Brianboulton (talk) 19:40, 12 September 2019 (UTC)
Comments from Maury[edit]
- "In 1998, they bought a cattle ranch"... and? That was 20 years ago, is he still there?
- @Hawkeye7: Add that to the lede, that he's living in Billings. Currently, it reads like he's in Bighorn.
- "he mentioned to his friend's father"- I am confused by this entire passage. This statement, in particular, seems like it should be in the paragraph below, it is very oddly placed as is. And I remain unclear on what the friend's father actually did in the end. What is this "third alternative appointment", I assume this is the direct placement program with WP? It seems Borman had already decided to go the Army route, yes? So am I correct that he abandoned using the GI Bill? If so, how? Wasn't he already ordered to go to the Army? And if he get the third placement, how was it that three people were ahead of him? And for most non-US readers, the relationship between the military and West Point may not be clear. I think this whole thing could use some clarification.
- Appointment to West Point is through political patronage. Each senator, congressman and the vice president gets to nominate candidates. (Nowadays five; back then it was just three.) In the late 19th century they started conducting examinations to rank candidates. For each vacancy they could name a principal candidate plus three alternatives in order of preference. Borman was incredibly lucky to get the nod from a third alternative (the Stephen Bradbury route). More typical is Buzz Aldrin, who was the principal nominee of his senator. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:29, 13 September 2019 (UTC)
- Ok, how about this:
His parents did not have the money to send him to an out-of-state university, and neither the University of Arizona nor Arizona State University offered top-notch aeronautical engineering courses at that time. His football skills were insufficient to secure an athletic scholarship, so he volunteered to join the Army, intending to qualify for college tuition under the G.I. Bill.[7] Borman took {passed?} the Army physical, and was told to report to Fort MacArthur on graduation from high school.
Borman also built model airplanes out of balsa wood. He was helping a friend build model planes when he mentioned to his friend's father that he wanted to go to the United States Military Academy at West Point. His friend's father told him that he knew Richard F. Harless, the congressman who represented Arizona. {Every year,} Harless was able to present one primary candidate and up to three alternatives for an appointment to West Point. Harless had not yet listed a third alternative and {what exactly happened so he ended up on it? the friend's dad arranged it?} The end of the war had changed attitudes towards joining the military, and the three nominees ahead of him all dropped out, so Borman went to West Point.[7][4]
- I am still unclear on the last point - if he had already been ordered to report to the Army, how did he get out of that? IIRC, being in West Point is not legally being in the military? Is the some sort of arrangement here, or did he have to do something to remove himself from service? Maury Markowitz (talk) 14:18, 18 September 2019 (UTC)
- The Army will release you to go to West Point, even if you are already serving. (Since World War I there are also some appointments are reserved for serving members of the Army, Army Reserve and National Guard (85 regulars and 85 reservists today) but unlike some European countries prior service has never been a requirement.) Borman did pass the Army physical. No doubt he was in good shape. Had he not been, he would likely have still been accepted, as standards were low in 1946, with the Army releasing large numbers from active service while providing occupation forces in Europe and Asia. Arizona had a small population then and the whole state was just one congressional district. To get into West Point, you need a nomination from your congressman or senators, so personal contacts are essential. (In Australia we call such a process "stroking your member".) Appointment strictly on merit is not the American way, but competition is still fierce, and West Point is more popular in some districts than others. Each Congressman can have a total of five cadets at West Point at any one time. Usually, they allocate their quota by appointing one candidate per year. That way, there are four or five cadets from their district at West Point at any one time - usually one in each class. When those cadets appointed by the Congressman graduate or drop out, another slot becomes available. That's why in some cases a Congressman can send more than one person to an academy in a given year. I believe that in 1946 Harless could nominate one principal with three numbered alternatives. Today, he could provide up to ten alternatives; I'm not sure what the maximum number was back then. (No Congressman has been convicted for selling appointments since John H. Hoeppel in 1936.)
- I like the way the narrative unfolds in the article. It talks about Borman's love of flying and building aircraft. It shows how this led to his wanting to attend an out-of-state school, which was beyond his parents' means, and therefore why he thought of the Army and West Point, and how it led to his receiving a Congressional appointment. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 20:47, 18 September 2019 (UTC)
The narrative is confusing. You mention his friend's dad and west point, then talk about his family and the army. How these two topics are related and thus in one para eludes me. Then in the next para we have his friend's dad again, then the army again, then west point again. I'm sorry, but this is not FA quality prose. It also lacks the details you note above, and while I'm sure you don't find this confusing, I certainly did and I suspect most readers will. Maury Markowitz (talk) 23:09, 19 September 2019 (UTC)
- I have tried to address your concerns by using the converssation with his friend's father as a frame, rewriting as follows:
Borman was helping a friend build model planes, when his friend's father asked him about his plans for the future. Borman told him that he wanted to study aeronautical engineering, but his parents did not have the money to send him to an out-of-state university, and neither the University of Arizona nor Arizona State University offered top-notch courses in aeronautical engineering at that time. His football skills were insufficient to secure an athletic scholarship, and he lacked the political connections to secure an appointment to the United States Military Academy at West Point. He therefore planned to join the Army, which would allow him to qualify him for free college tuition under the G.I. Bill. His friend's father told him that he knew Richard F. Harless, the congressman who represented Arizona. Harless already had a principal nominee for West Point, but Borman's friend's father convinced Harless to list Borman as a third alternative. Borman took the West Point entrance examination, but since his chances of a West Point appointment were slim, he also took the Army physical, and passed both. But the end of the war had changed attitudes towards joining the military, and the three nominees ahead of him all dropped out. Instead of reporting to Fort MacArthur on graduation from high school, he to went to West Point.
Crap, need to reboot... Maury Markowitz (talk) 14:05, 13 September 2019 (UTC)
- @Maury Markowitz: Satisfied that all your points have been addressed? Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:32, 4 October 2019 (UTC)
- @Maury Markowitz: Quick ping in case you did not notice this. Kees08 (Talk) 22:59, 13 October 2019 (UTC)
Support by Kees08[edit]
Copying comments from A-class review. Hope you don't mind I moved your comments too when relevant.
- They landed Friday night, but only had to wait 45 minutes for daylight? Mission ground rules required a daylight recovery, so the crew had to wait 45 minutes for the frogmen to open the hatches.
- I think the Apollo 8 section could include more detail on how Borman militantly fought scope creep, preventing additional experiments and television broadcasts.
- I think his POW efforts deserves more than a sentence. Whose idea was it? Where did he go? Did it help?
- I was reading into this the other day, and it was not immediately clear: was Frank Borman heading a special commission that was investigating if his sons acted inappropriately? If so, is there any coverage on his impartialness?
- Not his sons specifically. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 04:20, 1 September 2019 (UTC)
- Good citation for this? I recall an IP editor adding a citation to many pages for induction into the museum, but someone was able to get their hands on a copy and was having trouble validating the citation.
and the International Air & Space Hall of Fame in 1990
- What year? and DeMolay International Hall of Fame.
- He was interviewed for at least this one, which would be different than just appearing in it (appearing it in would be an assumed default, if they were using footage of the mission) He appeared in the Discovery Channel documentary When We Left Earth: The NASA Missions,
- I could have sworn I posted on the talk page about this, but I guess not. I recall finding some newspaper articles on confusion w/ the name of the highway and some other small details that could possibly be included. May be nice to add detail on it I-80/I-94 in Lake County, Indiana, which runs through his birth town of Gary, Indiana, is named the Frank Borman Expressway
- Where's WP:USROADS when you need them? Hawkeye7 (discuss) 04:20, 1 September 2019 (UTC)
- Let me see if I can find the citations at least. Kees08 (Talk) 04:56, 17 September 2019 (UTC)
- Highway/expressway confusion, Senate introduces bill, announced during his visit, more name confusion, announced name as expressway, initial proposal. Maybe indicate around when it was proposed, when he heard about it, and about when the renaming happened? Don't have to use all the clippings obviously, was just trying to find you all the information I could. Kees08 (Talk) 01:33, 18 September 2019 (UTC)
- Let me see if I can find the citations at least. Kees08 (Talk) 04:56, 17 September 2019 (UTC)
- Where's WP:USROADS when you need them? Hawkeye7 (discuss) 04:20, 1 September 2019 (UTC)
- Found two sources indicating a planetarium named after him was going to be built in Tucson. It wasn't, so not sure if it should be included. Seems like it got coverage though. Source 1 Source 2
- I think we usually include honorary doctorates (link).
- I don't usually; they are too hard to keep track of. Let me know if you find a list of them. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:20, 1 September 2019 (UTC)
- University of Arizona
- South Dakota School of Mines
- Illinois Wesleyan University
- Pitt
- Air University? (has photo that can be used for this paragraph)
- Indiana University
- Arizona State University
- Clarkson University
- Hope College
- That is all I easily find. There are many references to 'holds many honorary doctorates', so perhaps some can be named while implying the list is extensive? Whatever you feel is best. Kees08 (Talk)
- I don't usually; they are too hard to keep track of. Let me know if you find a list of them. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:20, 1 September 2019 (UTC)
- What about Susan's Alzheimer's? Seems worth including. Source.
- Where to draw the line on Hall of Fames? He was inducted into a high school hall of fame; that seems like an easy one to exclude. He was also inducted into the Arizona Aviation Hall of Fame (added) (another source, if needed), and the Indiana Aerospace Hall of Fame. Maybe the cutoff should be his home state, or a minimum of the national level? Not sure, hoping to hear your thoughts.
![[2]](https://scontent.ffsd1-1.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/48232944_756559118010542_4004905288095236096_n.jpg?_nc_cat=106&_nc_oc=AQnfu3rZyKNYPoA5JCCLKd8VBduXa53JBq88qSiO657gzMyvOd4OdIACYwgPspKHlRhD7AfOtP2-BoP6luOA6_Ul&_nc_ht=scontent.ffsd1-1.fna&oh=8cccc47c52e99b4a5ed0b09aed29d173&oe=5DBDC101){kind=link}
Once these are all addressed I will go through the article again. Kees08 (Talk) 04:56, 17 September 2019 (UTC)
- Some NYT articles have the lock for subscription required and others don't.
- Kenneth? Jennings, Kennth M. (Summer 1989).
- Distinguished service medal clipping if you want it (currently cited w/ his book)
@Hawkeye7: Any progress here? Kees08 (Talk) 01:57, 30 September 2019 (UTC)
- One New York Times citation has New York, New York as the location and another has no location
- He to went to Instead of reporting to Fort MacArthur on graduation from high school, he to went to West Point.
- an to and? Eventually, 92 cadets were readmitted an graduated with the class of 1978
- Would you be able to address my memory that Borman was a stickler for excluding scientific experiments, tried very hard to make the mission only about going around the Moon before the Soviets, and later regretted it? I glanced for a source and did not see one, so maybe I am misremembering, but I am pretty sure it was Borman on that mission.
- As a rule, Borman hated experiments and thought they were a waste of time, space and fuel. "To Hell with the scientific community" (O'Leary, p. 170) I couldn't find anything about Apollo 8 though, except his resistance to taking a TV camera. (Serling, pp. 191-192) His recent interviews don't indicate that he has changed his mind about this. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 02:44, 7 October 2019 (UTC)
Those will be the last comments for this article. Great work. Kees08 (Talk) 01:22, 7 October 2019 (UTC)
Support from Coffeeandcrumbs[edit]
- Ref 157 – remove date
- The following articles are over linked: Arizona State University, Jim Lovell, and Bill Anders.
That's it for me. I have copy-edited the article myself where I found non-controversial errors. Great work! Cheers. --- Coffeeandcrumbs 04:38, 3 October 2019 (UTC)
- Closing note: This candidate has been promoted, but there may be a delay in bot processing of the close. Please see WP:FAC/ar, and leave the {{featured article candidates}} template in place on the talk page until the bot goes through. --Laser brain (talk) 17:45, 3 November 2019 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.